John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, who are here to present the Estimates. I remind them of the note we receive on privilege. I remind members not to name or identify anyone outside of the Houses. They are covered by full privilege if they are here on the campus of Leinster House. If they are not, they may only be entitled to part-privilege. We have been asked to review the Estimates for Public Services 2024 in respect of Votes 11 to 14, inclusive, and 17 to 19, inclusive. I propose to take opening statements from the Minister and the Minister of State, if that is what they had planned, and to open it to members' questions immediately afterwards.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to be here this afternoon. I am here to engage on six Supplementary Estimates proposed for Votes under the Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform Vote group. I will detail the requirements for each Vote but, in summary, they comprise a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 for Vote 11; a technical Supplementary Estimate of a net €1,000 and gross €22.1 million for Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances; a technical Supplementary Estimate for a net €1,000 and a gross €120,000 for Vote 14 – State Laboratory; a technical Supplementary Estimate for a net €1,000 and a gross €665,000 for Vote 17 – Public Appointments Service; a technical Supplementary Estimate of a token €1,000 for Vote 18 – National Shared Services Office; and a technical Supplementary Estimate of a token €1,000 for Vote 19 – Office of the Ombudsman. Altogether, the proposed Supplementary Estimates would result in an increased allocation of €6,000 in net terms and €22.9 million in gross terms across the six Votes. A further Supplementary Estimate under the ministerial Vote group is being sought for the Office of Public Works. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, will speak to that.

With regard to Vote 11, we are seeking a technical Supplementary Estimate to allow for the transfer of funding between departmental subheads. This is to ensure that adequate funding is available for programme A16, which relates to pensions for bodies under the aegis of the Department, particularly the ESRI, the IPA and the Office of the Regulator of the National Lottery. As public servants are only required to give one month's notice of retirement, it is difficult to forecast the cost of lump sums and pensions. In 2024, it is expected that €612,000 extra will be required in programme A16. No additional funding is required in 2024 other than the token amount of €1,000 as there are savings within programme A1, which relates to salaries, wages, pensions and allowances, that can offset this expected overspend. The 2025 estimate for pensions for bodies under the aegis of the Department has increased from €1.536 million to €2.206 million to mitigate any potential future overspends.

With regard to Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances, this is for a net amount of €1,000 and will, if agreed, allow the Vote to utilise additional appropriations-in-aid to fund projected expenditure. The receipts for appropriations-in-aid are higher than forecast due to greater than expected contributions on subhead B7, single public service pension scheme. This proposal utilises additional appropriations-in-aid and will increase the gross ceiling of Vote 12 by €21.1 million. The technical Supplementary Estimate in respect of the superannuation Vote will bring the total 2024 Estimate for that Vote to €891.7 million gross and €225.4 million net. This Estimate arises due to a higher number of retirements than expected for 2024. This has resulted in costs under the pension scheme for established civil servants being higher than forecast. Expenditure in this regard is dependent on the number and grade mix of those who retire, and varies year to year.

The Supplementary Estimate for Vote 14 is for a net amount of €1,000 and will allow the Vote to utilise appropriations-in-aid, in addition to savings in salaries, wages, pensions and allowances, to fund higher than expected electricity and gas costs. Savings in subhead A1 arise as a result of delays in recruitment of staff in the first half of the year while appropriations-in-aid are due to a higher number of tests completed and billed in 2024, and this will result in an increase in the gross ceiling of Vote 14 by €122,000.

A technical Supplementary Estimate is sought for the Public Appointments Service. This is again for a net amount of €1,000 and will allow the Vote to utilise appropriations-in-aid to fund the delivery of enhanced recruitment for An Garda Síochána. In 2024, PAS and An Garda Síochána agreed that PAS would facilitate a process for enhanced Garda recruitment on the basis that An Garda Síochána agreed to transfer €664,000 to PAS. This, therefore, requires a technical Supplementary Estimate which will result in an increase in the gross ceiling of Vote 17 by €664,000.

The Supplementary Estimate for Vote 18 – National Shared Services Office is a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 to provide for the reallocation of funding within the Vote to areas experiencing pressures. The Supplementary Estimate will allow for €7.295 million in savings across a number of programme areas to be allocated mainly to address pressures arising within the area of enterprise IT. Given the nature of the office, the NSSO is a significant consumer of IT related services and costs in this area have been increasing year on year.

A technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 is sought for Vote 19 – Office of the Ombudsman to provide for the reallocation of funding within the Vote to areas experiencing pressures. It will provide scope for the office to increase the legal fees subhead by €710,000 in 2024 to meet the cost of legal fees and settlements which are expected to fall due towards the end of the financial year. Cases span a number of years and the timing of the conclusion of each case is difficult to estimate. Therefore, the exact amount of legal costs and the timing of when those costs are due can vary from the original Estimate.

Approval of the Supplementary Estimates outlined will enable the Votes concerned to provide key services and projects to the end of the year. I have, on a few occasions in my opening statement, used the term "token". That is not to say that €1,000 is a token amount of money. It is just to say that, in keeping with accounting best practice, when we are moving money around inside a Vote, we have been asked to indicate that by a Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 or an amount thereof to indicate to the Oireachtas that a change is happening inside a Vote.

I commend these Estimates to the committee and I look forward to any questions that the Chairman and the members will have.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, I am here today to propose a Supplementary Estimate for the office.

While the OPW’s net Estimate for 2024 on Vote 13 is €624 million, profiled expenditure for the year indicates an expected excess of €40.336 million on capital expenditure and €15.624 million on current expenditure. When account is taken of expected savings on the Vote of €5.611 million, the net overall request for a Supplementary Estimate for Vote 13 is €50.349 million.

An additional amount of just over €40 million on capital expenditure is due to a number of factors. Approximately half of the sum required, €20.336 million, is to fund the data centre project in Backweston. When the national development plan allocations for the period 2021 to 2030 were agreed by Government in 2021, the estimated cost of the project was €57 million and this was provided for in the OPW’s multi-annual NDP allocation. Prior to going to tender, the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform was advised by the OPW that the pre-tender estimate had reached €80 million. The Department agreed in November 2022 that any additional funding required would be provided when it fell due and authorised the OPW to proceed with the procurement competition for the delivery of the project.

This project is also partly funded by the EU under the national recovery and resilience plan with an allocation of €40 million being provided from that source. That is 50% of the value of the contract. The data centre is on schedule to be completed in mid-2025. It will replace a number of older centres that are no longer fit for purpose and will facilitate the continued development of digital services across government. The new facility will also be more energy efficient than the existing centres, thus making a valuable contribution to meeting the Government’s climate action targets to reduce the State’s carbon footprint. This is the latest important infrastructural development that has been located at the Backweston campus following on from the recently completed Forensic Science Laboratory that was formally opened earlier this year. The successful completion of the data centre project represents a further tangible demonstration of the Government’s commitment under the national development plan to provide the critical infrastructure the State needs to deliver services into the future.

The remaining €20 million sought for capital expenditure includes €6 million for RePowerEU related expenditure on a major refurbishment project at the OPW’s former offices at 6 Ely Place, Dublin 2. A further €9 million of EU funding will be provided during 2025 towards the €35 million overall cost of this project, so €50 million of the overall cost is provided from the EU. It is scheduled for completion by the end of 2025. At that point, it will facilitate the consolidation of a number of areas of the Department of Justice in the State-owned office accommodation complex that extends from Nos. 51 and 52 St Stephen’s Green to Ely Place. A key feature of the project's design was to make better use of the space available, resulting in an increase in available workspaces from 300 to 380. A significant upgrade of the building fabric will improve the energy efficiency of the building in alignment with Government policy on climate action to reduce the State’s carbon footprint in its buildings.

A further €7 million relates to the fit-out of Smithfield Hall, also known as the Distillers Building. The OPW has taken out a 25-year lease on this modern, energy-efficient and strategically located building in the Smithfield area of Dublin, close to public transport and other major State offices, and will provide almost 1,000 workstations. The total project budget is estimated at €60 million. When the works are completed during 2025, the building will be the headquarters of Tailte Éireann, which has been created through an amalgamation of the Valuation Office, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Property Registration Authority. The building will also accommodate the Valuation Tribunal, the Insolvency Service, and the Chief State Solicitor’s Office. When the building is completed and occupied, it will enable the OPW to exit other poor quality accommodation and make these State-owned buildings available for refurbishment and other State uses.

The €7 million balance of the €20 million is required for a new build on Leeson Lane which will provide a modern, energy-efficient office block in a strategically important location at an overall cost of €50 million. The project is expected to be completed by the end of 2024 with staff moving into the building on a phased basis commencing in quarter 1 of 2025. The main occupier of this new State-owned building will be the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. Some staff from the Department of Finance will also be accommodated in the building. The building will provide 350 workstations in a predominantly open-plan environment with minimal use of cellular offices to meet the requirements of the occupying Departments in a cost-efficient manner.

These four key projects are being delivered on time and within the budgets and programmes agreed following tendering for the works involved. They represent a combined investment of €225 million in important State infrastructure that is essential for the effective delivery of public services.

The requirement for non-capital expenditure is €15.624 million which is net of a projected increase of €3.569 million in appropriations-in-aid for 2024.

A figure of €3.9 million is required for a number of pay items. These include a provision of €1.6 million toward the overall cost to the organisation of implementing the public service pay agreement, which had not been finalised in time for its provisions to be reflected accurately in the Revised Estimates Volume for 2024 when it was published late last year. A further €1.4 million relates to the cost of staff who are working on the Rosslare Europort project, which was previously funded from the Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR. BAR funding is no longer available to meet these staff costs and, accordingly, €1.4 million is required under the A1 pay subhead. The balance of €900,000 is required to fund the backfilling of vacancies and the staffing required to deliver OPW services.

An allocation of €408,000 is required to fund an increase in subsistence rates in 2024 to cover rising costs for operational services, encompassing supplies and sundries equipment and rising costs for digital investment and IT expenses. The latter covers software licences and additional contract staff hours in the ICT area. An additional €1.39 million is required in the arterial drainage area due to a number of factors, including the increased cost of carrying out essential maintenance works driven by fuel costs and general construction cost inflation, as well as the need to fund the cost of unexpected significant and essential environmental and archaeological survey costs. Ongoing engineer recruitment challenges have also resulted in a requirement to engage contract engineers to ensure essential works can continue.

The modest increase in the OPW's non-capital allocation for 2024 of 1.5% did not adequately cover the expected increase in the OPW’s cost base at the time when the 2024 Estimate was settled. As a result, estate management requires additional funds to cover the cost of inflation and increases in the number of buildings moving to maintenance. Several high-tech buildings, now coming under the B7 property maintenance budget, have significantly higher than usual maintenance costs. In addition, increases in insurance costs means that the overall requirement for estate management comes to just under €13.5 million. As I noted earlier, there are savings of €5.611 million available that will partially offset these costs.

In summary, the overall amount of the Supplementary Estimate required for both current and capital purposes is €50.349 million. I commend them to the House.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What is on people's minds today as the Minister and Minister of State come looking for the extra money to be added on is how people know they are getting value for money on this. What is the total additional amount that is being requested for the OPW?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The total amount being requested is €50.349 million. That includes capital and current expenditure. Capital expenditure amounts to €40 million of that, of which €26 million is coming from Europe. A total 65% of the capital funding is not a cost to the Exchequer. The money is coming directly from Europe.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously the Minister of State will agree that it does not matter whether it is coming from Europe or from here, people need to know that they have value for money. The thing people have asked me about the most when I have called to the doors in recent weeks is value for money. The two words that have been put to me are "bike shed". How do people know they are getting value for money in this? Will the Minister of State talk me through the €40 million extra on capital and how that has come about? What, specifically, is the largest proportion of money there?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The best thing is if I guide the Deputy through the four projects because she will get a good appreciation of them.

First is the original project, which is Backweston. That is an €80 million project, of which €40 million is coming from the EU fund. It started in March 2023 and will be completed in May 2025. It is on time and on budget. In terms of the way the funding came, in the 2023 Estimates, just over €80 million came from the national recovery and resilience fund from Europe. In the Estimates for 2024, €30.664 million was provided. A further €20.336 million is now being provided through the national recovery and resilience fund through the Supplementary Estimates. In 2025, €8.227 million is in the Estimates. There will be a balance of retention in 2026 of €2.391 million, which is the full €80 million.

The refurbishment of 6 Ely Place started in August. It will be completed in late 2025, with a total cost of €35.936 million. Exchequer funding amounts to €20.936 million. Funding of €15 million is coming from Europe through RePower EU. The way that is being funded today is €6 million is coming through the Supplementary Estimates now. That is the first allocation to that project. In the 2025 Estimates, €12.692 million is coming. A further €9 million will come through RePower EU in 2025 and a balance of funding is coming in 2026 from the Exchequer of €7.659 million, which amounts to just under €36 million.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What was the Ely Place refurbishment estimated to cost?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is estimated to cost €35.936 million.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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How much is it costing?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is costing that. It is coming in on budget and on time. Work commenced on the Distillers Building in Smithfield in July 2024. It will be completed in August 2025. It is a €60 million project. The Exchequer provided €9.5 million in the Estimates for 2024. We are providing a further €7 million in the Supplementary Estimates. There will be €36 million through the Estimates in 2025, and then a balance of €7.5 million will come in the 2026 Estimates, which is €60 million. That is all Exchequer funding.

Leeson Lane is a €50.064 million project. That is the budget. It is on budget and on time. It started in 2023 and will be finished at the end of this year. A total of €30.853 million was funded through the resilience fund from the EU. The 2024 Estimates were €12.1 million. A further €7 million is being provided through the Supplementary Estimates now, which comes to the full €50 million. It is on time and on budget. I have looked at those four projects and how they were funded. All four are on budget and on time.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I raise the legal fees subhead for the Office of the Ombudsman. It states it will "provide ... for the office to increase the legal fees subhead by €710,000 in 2024 to meet the cost of legal fees and settlements". Will the Minister speak to that and the main driver of it?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The main driver of that would be the expenses incurred by the Ombudsman in the delivery of their services. It is very difficult for us to be able to form a very accurate view and predict with total accuracy what its costs are going to be in any given year from a legal perspective. That is because the number of cases the office is involved in varies. The settlement period for cases is difficult to predict as well. While it is possible to predict with some accuracy what our legal costs are going to be, it is difficult to predict what could be the costs of adverse outcomes from legal activity the Ombudsman is involved in.

Two actions are being taken to contain those costs over time. First, the Office of the Ombudsman has delivered and developed its own legal services unit, which provides legal advice on the exercise of statutory functions. Second, the office has moved the negotiation of the amount of opposition costs to the State Claims Agency once an award of costs has been made by the court. As the Deputy knows, the activities of the Ombudsman are entirely separate to my own Department, as they should be. In my answer to the Deputy, I have tried to outline the challenges in predicting the costs and the actions that have been taken to contain those costs over time.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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How much has been paid out in settlements from the State in the past year or recent years?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I would not have that information with me because that covers off such an array of legal actions the State is involved in.

I can certainly try to find out for the Deputy and revert to her with an answer, but, obviously, it will transcend massively the activity of the Ombudsman.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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People are interested in this particularly in the context of health and the number of incidents that are happening within the health service whereby people are being denied proper healthcare. They want a take on how much is paid out and are asking whether, even in the context of the moratorium on the hiring of staff and the absence of safe staffing levels, we might be better off investing in staff and our hospitals to prevent claims being made at the other end and the State being held to account.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I completely take that point. Of course, the Oireachtas should know, and I am sure the people want to know as well, what level of money is involved in the settlement of legal cases. All I would say is that that will have little interaction with the work of the Ombudsman. Not only is the Ombudsman independent, it covers off a particular set of functions. Many issues relating to the settlement of legal matters with regard to health fall to the State Claims Agency, which is the responsibility of the Department of Finance. I say that only to explain that few of them, if any, will be included in those figures. I nonetheless take the Deputy's point, and I will ask my officials to come back to her with an answer if such an answer exists, as I am sure it does.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it has to exist, and those people want to know what their money is being spent on.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Of course they do, but it may not be being spent by the Ombudsman. That is my point. Of course the figure exists, but it is almost certainly not within the Ombudsman. If the Ombudsman does have health-related expenditure, I anticipate that would constitute a small share of its overall legal costs.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for coming before the committee. I have a couple of questions on the national development plan and the reform thereof. To what extent has that reform taken place, and to what extent has the economy from any reforms that have taken place or that are proposed?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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If I were to highlight two reforms I believe are making a difference, the first is the way in which we have changed the process with regard to the public spending code. We have increased the threshold above which a further level of work needs to be done in evaluating the business case and where additional processes need to be triggered because the cost of the project is high. We have changed the threshold of that, allowing more projects below a value of €200 million to move forward with more speed.

An additional change we have made, which the construction sector raises often with me, is the work we have done in building information management. We are trying to bring more of the information that is needed to deliver and build complex projects. It is available digitally and is shared in real time with everybody who is involved in delivering the project.

Those are reforms from different ends of how we spend the country's money, but I believe they are having an impact. If I were to point to the biggest top-line difference I can see in capital spending this year versus that of previous years of the Government, it is that in the first couple of years of the Government's term we were not able to spend our full capital budgets, which was due to the pandemic. Even after the pandemic had lifted, however, some Departments still had difficulty spending their full capital budgets. For the past two years, that has been a thing of the past, as is again the case for this year. If I were to say whether this is having a benefit, I would say it definitely is and I would point to new school buildings, the roll-out of the national broadband plan and extensions to certain hospitals as the most tangible examples of the difference it has made.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Various snags and obstacles have impacted negatively on some, though not all, public projects in the past. Is the Minister satisfied at this stage that these matters have been brought into focus for review and improvement and is that likely to happen? For example, I was recently looking at an application to a local authority for something very small. It contained a file that was about 4 in. or 5 in. thick. I recall when those files would be three or four pages long. I am sure somebody is going to tell me that things have moved on, which is true, but it now takes more people longer to assess a file that is 4 in. or 5 in. thick than it did to assess files that were only four or five pages long.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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In the lifetime of this Government, by some way the most disruptive issue to us delivering our capital projects has been the impact of cost-price inflation. It has meant the costs for certain projects, through nobody's fault, have moved significantly ahead of what they would have been expected to be because the costs of concrete, steel, wood and energy have all changed over the past two years in particular. By some way, therefore, I would highlight that as the biggest challenge we have faced.

Because this challenge has come largely from beyond our shores, the first step we have taken to address it is that changes have been made to the contracts for certain capital works to allow the risk in respect of those contracts to be better shared between the State and those who are involved in building the projects, because we recognise that inflation has had a big impact on them. Second, we have made changes to the level of our capital budgets whereby, in many cases, we have had to allocate additional money to projects simply because they are costing more, given that the cost of building them has increased due to inflation. That is the single biggest issue we have had to deal with.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Has any assessment been carried out to identify the direct causes of the inflation? I accept the Minister's point that costs have increased generally and so on, but there appear to be some cases where inflation comes in under a heading, and individual rates of inflation that seem to have a further impact come in under numerous headings, and the inflationary spiral continues. Is that continuing at the moment or has it abated at all? To what extent is it possible to carry out a forensic test to find out exactly what negative effect the rising costs are having?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Office of Government Procurement has done work to examine what the drivers of inflation I referred to are. It has been able to relate that back to raw materials and evaluate how the change in the cost of raw materials has impacted on the costs of projects and the procurement process.

As for whether it is abating in any way, there have been some signs the rate of inflation is moderating but, as the Deputy will know, a slower rate of inflation still means prices are increasing. It just means they are increasing at a slower pace. We will need to have a fair bit of low inflation under our belts before we can say it has abated to the extent that it is going to make a big difference to the issues I described. We have mainly accommodated those inflationary pressures by increasing our capital ceilings, which has allowed us to deliver on our commitments and on some additional projects at the same time.

Our capital ceiling going up has allowed us to deliver on our commitments and some additional projects at the same time.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the OPW. I am not going to ask the question the Minister might think I am going to ask. I am going to ask a different question. This is regarding the arterial drainage issues all over the country. Given the situation that has arisen in Spain recently and recognising that in Ireland has fairly high levels of rainfall in any given year, is the Minister of State in any way concerned about the progress on any of the schemes, those that are pending, proposed or have been delayed for whatever reason?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What happened in Spain was horrific, with a huge loss of life. During my time in the OPW, I have made flood relief schemes a significant priority. In that time, we have finalised a scheme for Midleton. We have finalised a €5.8 million individual property protection scheme for Midleton, to cater for 923 people, on a case-by-case basis. Furthermore, the design of that scheme means that there is no outlay of costs to the homeowner or business owner. We looked at it in great detail and it is designed in a way whereby the council provides an independent assessor to look at the home or business. From that, reports come back and the council is involved in two elements. The council goes out to tender on Irish and European sites on the basis that one of the features that came back to us was that there may not be sufficient supply within the domestic market for individual property protection measures. We are dealing with the supply issue and, in terms of value for money, going out to tender. The council will then engage contractors to install them. This is a huge body of work in Midleton.

Schemes will take time because there are processes such as environmental ones that have to be gone through. I am very keen on interim measures. We put quite a number into Midleton and the surrounding areas such as Rathcormac, Mogeely and Castlemartyr. Deputy O'Connor will be very familiar with these. More recently I have been to Bantry and we are looking at the issues there. There is a mains scheme and there is also a culvert, which is in a very bad state of repair, going through the town. We are looking at ways to expedite its repair. That will go for planning by Cork County Council very shortly. We are also looking at interim measures. We have had two meetings with Cork County Council over the last few weeks. We have a further meeting scheduled tomorrow. The OPW chairs an interdepartmental flood policy co-ordination group. At the most recent meeting, I invited all the local authorities to attend to discuss flood preparedness. The CEOs and directors of services of the local authorities attended and we discussed the supports they required and their readiness. They assured me that they were ready. One of the key elements that came out of the meeting was communication. With Storm Ashley Galway City Council did a great body of work. The council did a huge amount of communication in a timely manner on road closures and road openings. Having dealt with the local authorities and our own staff in the OPW, I am satisfied that we are taking very co-ordinated measures on flood relief schemes.

The relief schemes for Crossmolina, King's Island in Limerick and Castleconnell are going ahead. Kilkee is proceeding to planning. We have all these schemes and I want to see them continue to be rolled out. It is a huge priority for us.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of State satisfied that plans are sufficiently advanced at this stage to be able to reassure the people who have been the victims of flooding more than once, in recent times, suffering damage to their properties and businesses?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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All the schemes I have dealt with in the OPW have two elements. First, I want to see the main schemes progressed as quickly as possible. However, one thing we have learned from Lough Funshinagh is that we cannot bypass the process. We have to work within the process while seeking to expedite it. Second, we have to see if we can bring interim measures prior to the main scheme being ready. That is a key feature for me. In Bantry, this involves progressing work on the culvert project prior to the main project. In Midleton, it means putting in interim measures. I am satisfied that the process in place is robust. We must remember that we have to be true to people. When the schemes go ahead, we must be certain they are robust and fit for purpose. If it transpires that a scheme goes to judicial review, it must be able to withstand that. Side by side with that, it is about putting those interim measures in place to ensure people are safe until the main scheme is built.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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A considerable amount of time has elapsed since the original scheme for Lough Funshinagh was abandoned, following judicial review or whatever the case was at the time. The case was taken by someone who did not live in the area at all. My concern is coming directly from people who live in my constituency. Householders and farmers have been discommoded severely in going about their business. They have been discommoded in not being able to live in their homes in some cases. They have been discommoded by virtue of the roads that have to be closed off. Who pays for all this in the final analysis? For example, if the judicial review was sufficiently grounded to cause the scheme to be abandoned and restarted, who is to blame for all of that? Is it the case that the local people should not have been living there in the first place, as someone tried to tell me at one stage? That does not wash with the local people. At this stage, the local people are asking how long more must this go on. I acknowledge that the Minister of State said that it is in process but the process is taking an inordinate amount of time for the people who have been directly and negatively affected.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have had a lot of engagement with people living around Lough Funshinagh. They are exceptional people who have been through very difficult times. There is currently an injunction in place for the main scheme in Lough Funshinagh. This requires Roscommon County Council to make an application to the board on the main scheme itself. Subject to that being granted, the council would have to go back into court to get the injunction lifted to enable the remainder of the scheme to be completed. About two thirds of the pipe is laid. When I looked at this I realised it would take a period of time, with process. Working with my officials and with the support of the Taoiseach, I made a decision to put an interim measure in place for the people of Lough Funshinagh. The Deputy will appreciate my reticence because there is an application before the board at the moment for an interim measure to deal with the situation in Lough Funshinagh until the planning permission for the main scheme goes through. We are awaiting a decision from An Bord Pleanála on that at the moment. This is something I worked on with the OPW, Roscommon County Council, the consultants and, in particular, the people of Lough Funshinagh. I have met the people three or four times. In a nutshell, we have to have a main scheme but we also have to cater for the period until the main scheme is completed. I feel very strongly about this and Lough Funshinagh is a classic example of it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How do we prevent a recurrence?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not technical and the Deputy will appreciate that this is layman's language. Ultimately the main scheme has a measure to lower the level of the turlough when there is high rainfall, which provides protection. It is a technical process that we have come up with. Roscommon County Council, in parallel with the interim measure that has gone through An Bord Pleanála, is currently preparing an application to the board for the main scheme. As the Deputy will be aware, the main scheme was a pipe, of which 2 km have been completed and 1 km has not been completed. That has to go through a process again. It will take time to get planning permission and then to go back into the court to get the injunction lifted to enable the council to complete the remainder of the project. In the meantime, we did a highly concentrated body of work to get an application to the board, which went in in September, for an interim measure to deal with the issue for the people of Lough Funshinagh until the main scheme is concluded.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The question is who is to blame. Who is to compensate whom? The people of the area have been disadvantaged.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The people of the area, as I got to know first hand, have a deep connection with the turlough, with nature, and with their area. They want to be able to live in harmony with the turlough. There are rising water levels. They want a permanent measure in place. They have worked with us on the interim measure. The task for the OPW and particularly Roscommon County Council is to stick with the process and get the main scheme through in time. I do not want to in any way prejudice any decisions by the board, but if we get an interim decision from the board, it will alleviate the situation for the people of Lough Funshinagh until the main scheme is concluded.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How is Backweston data centre progressing with regard to energy consumption and so on?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The new facility will be more energy-efficient than the existing centre, thus making a valuable contribution to meeting the Government's climate action target and reducing the State's carbon footprint. We will get the Deputy a technical note on the specific point and forward it to him. It is very valid.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the opportunity to speak. I acknowledge that it is just over 12 months since Storm Babet hit east Cork. The incident has left an enormous footprint on our landscape, homes and businesses, and on much of our public amenities, whether public roads, community hospitals, Garda stations or schools in the area. People are dealing with the trauma of that. I acknowledge the enormous contribution made by our emergency services locally and by the responders on the county council who worked around the clock this time last year to get people back on their feet and back into their homes where possible. That was a long process over many months for hundreds of homeowners and business owners in the area. As I am sure the Minister of State will know, Cork County Council has worked diligently wherever it can from an engineering point of view, on an interim basis, working with community stakeholders, local county councillors, me as a Dáil Deputy for the people of east Cork, and the Minister of State. I acknowledge that the Minister of State took the time to come to us on so many occasions. Not many do that on a repeat basis, but Deputy O'Donnell did, and that needs to be said.

I do not want to be overly critical of what the OPW has been doing over the last months. I have been very familiar in the last 12 months, post Storm Babet, of its ongoing efforts. I think almost everything that can be done is being done. I know there is frustration and people who are rightly emotive about their own homes. I raise a couple of key questions. Yesterday, we had a meeting of the council engineers to go through, in committee, some of the emergency responses pertaining to the OPW. These are valid questions. People need the reassurance. We have seen €5.8 million allocated under what is now the largest ever individual property protection, IPP, scheme. It is envisaged to protect about 920 homes and businesses in the area affected by Storm Babet.

A small proportion of people's applications have been declined. They would appreciate the questions being asked. Is it worth that level of scrutiny for some of the homeowners who have shown, in photography, water coming right up to their porches and doors? In some cases, these people managed to get home on time. They worked their hearts out to get small, interim measures done, with makeshift barriers and sandbagging of their homes. They have seen their applications turned down. Could the Minister of State look at this? It takes from the enormous work that is being done by the county council. He knows that. He has been there. He has seen the work that has been put in by the director of services, John Slattery, our county engineer. Could we look at marginally increasing the budget to deal with a number of extra cases, which would be less than 100? It is so limited. Is it worth doing what we can so that it is done and provides a sense of reassurance to those people?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the Deputy's contribution in Midleton. I have been there. The community was exceptionally patient. We wanted to have an IPP scheme announced and up and running. We wanted it to be easy to operate and to have no cost to either the homeowners or businesses. We have followed up with Cork County Council on the particular matter the Deputy raised. We would like to see it being done case by case. The original scheme was based on specific units. The Deputy will appreciate that, for value for money, we had to design it in a way where people came forward with the specific number involved. Many applications came in. Cork County Council has committed to us that it will look at the measure when it processes the main scheme. We will have a further follow-up with it. If the number of houses involved is not enormous, maybe it is something that we can do on a case-by-case basis. I give that commitment, that we will go back to Cork County Council about that. There is a reassurance that it will be looked at when the council processes the main applications. We might do a further body of work to see how many are involved and whether it can be done on a case-by-case basis even at this particular moment.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that commitment. It is helpful to know that the Minister of State is willing to do that. I was with my Oireachtas colleagues yesterday, Deputies Stanton and Buckley. The three of us were there together and have worked in unison in the Oireachtas to raise this in the Chamber.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We might ask Cork County Council to do a small body of work to see what the situation is. I know we are dealing with people's homes and real lives but, once again, I am a believer in process and a structured approach. With regard to advancing that work, we will maybe ask Cork County Council to do a small body of work.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I have a secondary point to make, expanding on the €5.8 million individual property protection scheme. Another valid point that has been made is that we obviously have different homes at different scales.

We have semi-detached housing, detached housing and housing estates. We have one-off sites that have flooded along the urban area of Midleton and also terraced housing. Regarding terraced housing that flooded in Midleton, I am thinking particularly about areas like the Mill Road, and down towards Midleton College where terraced homes are at risk of flooding. There is a fear about the cut-off of the IPP schemes. The fear is that in a similar or comparable event to Storm Babet, the support to those individual homes would stop. We hope this will not happen before the construction of the main Midleton flood relief scheme. There is a fear that where individual property protection schemes are in place, the water may be pushed up further, perhaps to the last home or last two homes in a row. That is a valid point. It is not a situation to draw straws from. I am in no way seeking to politicise it. This matter has been brought to our attention and I just want to put it on the Minister of State's desk.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will ask Cork County Council to incorporate that further element of a structured approach in the body of work it is doing.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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All political representatives locally have been decent on this to a large extent, and have been willing to work with the Minister of State on this.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes, very collegial.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We appreciate the Minister of State's work. I will come back to him on that.

I want to refer to something else that has been raised. I know this has been before the Committee of Public Accounts. We have had two schemes in tranche 2, almost in an indefinite pattern, since 2018. That is in relation to what is going on in Rathcormac. I know the Minister of State did not get a chance to go there yet-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am due to.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but I brought the former Minister, Michael McGrath - the predecessor of the Minister, Deputy Donohoe - there for a visit after Storm Babet. We met residents there. I have been there. I want to get a sense for the people of Rathcormac and Castlemartyr, whose two schemes have been caught in tranche 2 for some years, going back to 2018 and even prior to that when the schemes were designed. Given that these settlements have flooded on multiple occasions, as their Government TD in the constituency I have an obligation to ask why this is not being done. I have not missed an opportunity to raise this. I have brought it up with the Minister of State in the Dáil Chamber and in the Committee of Public Accounts over the last 12 months, for anyone who is unaware of that fact. I want to ask, once again, whether the Department of public expenditure and the OPW can bring forward funding to get those two schemes knocked on, considering the damage that has been done in both communities.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about Rathcormac and-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Castlemartyr.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The OPW has provided funding for a minor works scheme in Castlemartyr. It is up to Cork County Council to come forward with a similar scheme for Rathcormac. I want to make an observation from my viewpoint. Major schemes take a significant amount of time. If I have learned one thing from the short time I have been in the OPW, it is that we must look at interim measures. These measures could take different forms such as in Moore's Bridge in Midleton and in Lough Funshinagh. I ask Cork County Council to look at Rathcormac, which I have committed to visit. The scheme is already there in Castlemartyr. In many cases, these measures can be put in place much more quickly than what would be deemed a larger scheme and can be hugely effective in protecting people's homes in much shorter periods of time. Tranches 1 and 2 come out of the CFRAM, study. In fairness, I take the Deputy's point. It is something we look at on a continuous basis. Castlemartyr has been approved for a minor works scheme and Cork County Council should look at Rathcormac for the same issue. Work is ongoing in Mogeely at looking at options to protect people's homes. The point the Deputy has made is a valid one and I take it on board. I ask the Deputy to look at the minor works scheme as well. It has connotations of being temporary but in many cases it is highly effective in protecting homes and businesses.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that the Minister of State has done what he can on an interim basis. The Minister of State has visited on many occasions. Nobody can fault him for his sincerity and the follow-ups he has done on his visits. I know some people will be angered by me saying this but on the whole, as Ministers go, the Minister of State has been very diligent in being responsive to questions on these issues in the Dáil. This needs to be acknowledged but I want to make this point once more: when a scheme has been sitting there since 2018, it is a bit like telling a community that a new bus is coming but the engine is missing. It has been sitting there idle when it could be put in place and done with a limited amount of funding in comparison to what is required for major schemes. We are not talking about something of the complexity of the Midleton flood relief scheme, which is trying to protect against fluvial and tidal flooding. It is not at the mouth of a river; it is on top of a hill. It requires drainage channels to be dug. We also need to look at the potential impacts of drainage in the village. Castlemartyr is probably more complex than Rathcormac but both of them are stuck in the CFRAM tranche 2 and have been there for some time. I come from Killeagh, which flooded for the first time in recorded history during Storm Babet. I do not underestimate the seriousness of Storm Babet. It changed the landscape totally. People who know Killeagh and east Cork from walking Glenbower Wood and other areas can see that the storm physically changed the land in the area. The tranche 2 schemes have been sitting there a long time. It has gone from people being patient to having legitimate concerns about the length of time these schemes are taking.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I want to go back to the process for a moment. The OPW is progressing 55 tranche 2 schemes. Nine staff have been given to Cork County Council to help because it is a resource issue at local authority level as well. If the council brings forward a scheme for Rathcormac, or anywhere else, we will be supportive in terms of tranche 2. In terms of substance over form, there is a pathway. We understand that Cork is an enormous county and there is a resource issue there but we have given many additional staff. If the council comes forward with a scheme and even if it is deemed to be tranche 2, we will support the scheme to progress it.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister of State visits, there may be an opportunity for that conversation. Fingers crossed, he will come down after the general election. We have to get that out of the way first.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We have to get re-elected first.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Touch wood, we may all be back again. Hopefully the Minister of State will still be in a position to do that as it would be much appreciated. I thank the Chairman for allowing me to speak here today.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You are welcome, Deputy O'Connor. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has been before this committee many times when we have spoken about report 42 and the payment to public servants under that category. This was progressed with the Workplace Relations Commission. Agreement was reached that these retired people from the HSE would be paid but they are not being paid. It has been stalled within the Department. I know one could say that this is a matter for the Minister for Health but it is unfair that they have gone through a process, got to the end of it and now it is not being paid. The money has to come from somewhere. I presume this would go to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform because it is a pay issue. What can be done?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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As I have only come before the committee today with a small number of Supplementary Estimates, I am not prepared to be able to give the Chairman a good answer to that question. He has raised it with me before but I do not have the material with me today to give him the right answer. I will find out and come back to the Chairman later this week on the matter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is important for polling day.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I accept that. I will get an answer and come back to the Chairman on it during this week.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is a similar situation with section 38 and section 39 workers.

Pensioners being paid by those organisations are reliant on the HSE, presumably, to process increases in their pensions. That is not happening either. When I ask about former SOS employees in Kilkenny who were employed under one of these sections, it is up to the employer to pay them but the employer is reliant on the HSE to provide funding to pay them, so they are not being paid their proper pensions. I bring it to the Minister's attention because it is an issue. Employees have worked hard to get to their pensions and are now being deprived of their proper pensions. It is difficult to deal with an organisation like St. Patrick's SOS because it is multilayered. By the time you get to the person making the decision, they come to me, I ask a parliamentary question and am told it is a matter for the organisation itself. However, it is not. Maybe the Minister can redirect that query.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will do that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The retired public servants who count the votes make a superannuation contribution.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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That is "the votes" as opposed to these Votes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is the votes that will be counted after 29 November. There will be retired public servants there who will be stopped their superannuation payment but get no benefit from that. Maybe it is not the Minister's area but I want to find out from someone. It is just in case there is a tie and I need a friend across the counter. Why are they stopped the contribution for that day? Will the Minister get someone to give me a-----

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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If there is any group of current-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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These are all very important and are raised at the doorway.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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They are, and if there is any group of current or retired civil servants I am particularly sensitive to, it is the ones who will be counting votes in a few weeks' time, which is all the more reason to come back with an accurate answer on it. I will do that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any Estimate here that deals with the coroner's office or probate office? Does that fall under any of the Minister's headings?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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No, the coroner's office is the Minister for Justice and the probate office is the same.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State gave me a note on the flood relief scheme in Kilkenny. He went back over the history of it. I recommend looking at the original tender, which was far less than €42 million. I am not saying this to embarrass anyone but we should explain to people how it can move from €4 million or €5 million to €42 million. It is worth showing the record of how that project was delivered. It was a fantastic scheme, even though there was a huge difference from start to finish. That would help people to understand. In Kilkenny during that project, the River Nore was diverted and trucks forming part of the construction team were driving up and down the bed of the river. There is a record of it. It explains how these jumps in cost can occur. The Minister of State tries to justify the cost by saying it saved 200 properties but he is not doing himself justice; it saved an awful lot more than that. It has been of huge benefit to way more than 200 properties. I am trying to be helpful.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is almost a case study.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I looked at that river during the really heavy rain and without that flood relief scheme, it would have flooded nearly to the same level as the 1947 flood, which came up to the windows in John Street. Yet all the centre and beyond was saved.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Point duly noted.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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People need to understand.

In all the notes the Secretary General gave me, he did not give me a note on my request about getting the Pangur Bán document for display in Kilkenny Castle.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I remember you bringing it up.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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All politics is local.

Mr. John Conlan:

We undertook to do that and will do so.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would they get a curator over there? It will not cost an arm and a leg.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will have it definitely tomorrow.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is very worthwhile because of the association between that document and the company in Kilkenny.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I remember the case. It was to do with-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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A cat.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Well, no. I felt there was a need for discussion between the OPW and the people in Kilkenny. I think that would be far more fruitful because it looked that some people were being ultra-cautious with what was involved. Apart from going back to the Chair, maybe we could arrange a meeting through his good self with the people in Kilkenny to see if there is-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know the castle is positive about it because of the association between the document and Cartoon Saloon. I am interested in bringing the document for display in Kilkenny Castle. It would be a great way to publicise the castle and the association with Cartoon Saloon, which is of international renown.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will do that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister of State go back to the museum on the far side? It is willing to co-operate.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a need for further discussion. We will arrange that and come back to the Chair with the note.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We spoke about Bennettsbridge Garda station. I see much work has been done on it. Will it go back to the Garda for use? Is there another proposal for the use of the property?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It just goes back to the Garda, I presume, when the work is done on it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I cannot leave without asking for the timeline in Crossmolina.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There was a standstill period. That finishes on 3 December. We will be on site before Christmas. It is a three-year build. It is our own staff and they will be on site before the end of this year.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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So we are talking about 2028.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It will be the end of 2027. I can count, just about.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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For the people of Crossmolina, it is 13 years since the floods.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Are any interim measures proposed in case there is flooding between now and then? We are heading into winter.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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To give clarity on the scheme, the period before which anything can be commenced concludes on 3 December. The OPW, etc., will be on site before the end of the year. It is a three-year build. I will talk to the officials.

Individual property protection was introduced in Crossmolina a number of years ago. The Deputy will obviously continue to engage with Mayo County Council to see if it is going to propose any interim measures to the OPW.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I certainly will but we cannot pretend it is normal to wait 13 years for a project.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Once again, it is important to note that the project is proceeding. The grant came through the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. It is a very important scheme. I will ask the officials to engage with Mayo County Council on any interim measures. Normally, such measures come forward from the local authority. The OPW will look at any proposals from a technical perspective with a view to providing support and funding.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister of State satisfied with it having taken 13 years to do this project?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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May I make a general observation? I am not a technical person. Schemes take a long time but that scheme is now going ahead. There is absolute certainty on that. The IPP scheme was brought in as an interim measure for Crossmolina. I have no doubt that people are very frustrated but the scheme is now going ahead and will provide absolute reassurance to the people of the Crossmolina area.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave it at this but the problem is that nobody can develop the area and no business can invest in the area until that is done. It is about the opportunity cost rather than just the fears of the people living in the area since 2015. It is just not acceptable at all that 13 years would-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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May I just make a very general observation? I am conscious that the period is up to 4 December so there could be reviews. We want the scheme to go ahead. The Deputy will appreciate that I do not wish to comment on the scheme in great detail because we are still in that period. We want to get to 4 December so that the OPW can then commence construction of the scheme.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. The Minister of State referred to 10,000 extra call-outs. Why were there 10,000 extra call-outs? What was the driver of that? It comes under subhead B.7, which relates to property maintenance and supplies.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That relates to extra buildings and the state of older or obsolescent buildings.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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No, it is said that there has been a significant increase in helpdesk call-out activity, with 10,000 additional call-outs to date in 2024 at an average cost of €300 per call-out. Why were there 10,000 extra call-outs?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There are three elements to it. One is the increase in the number of buildings. Another is the profile of those buildings, with many being obsolete. The helpdesk has been extended on a more geographical basis in the last year. People are therefore able to avail of the service a lot more.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The last time the Minister was here, I asked about the local State solicitors service. Does that come under the Minister, Deputy Donohoe's remit?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It falls under the justice Vote.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it under Vote 5?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; I have just been corrected. It falls under the Vote for the Chief State Solicitor, which is under the Department of the Taoiseach. It is under the office of the DPP.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is it. We probably will not be-----

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I have just been informed it is under the Office of the Attorney General. In any event, it is not under our remit but that of the Taoiseach.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank both Ministers and all of their officials for coming along and for their interaction during the course of this term. I wish them well in the forthcoming election. It is great to know that we all started our apprenticeship together in the Committee of Public Accounts.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We were under the Cathaoirleach's stewardship.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I wish the Cathaoirleach and all committee members the very best of luck.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I wish you all best of luck in the election.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it agreed that consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has concluded? Agreed.