John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will continue our consideration of the Estimates. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, and his team of officials. As usual, we will have an opening statement and members can then question the Estimates.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss the 2024 Supplementary Estimates. As Minister of State at the Department of Finance, I will be discussing one of the four Votes within the finance group of Votes, namely, Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners. I look forward to a fruitful and positive exchange.

The Office of the Revenue Commissioners plays a vital role in our economy by collecting taxes and duties due to the State. In 2023, Revenue collected a record €127.9 billion in gross receipts against total administrative costs of €585.1 million.

The UK's departure from the European Union has had a major impact on Irish businesses and necessitated a shift in trade patterns, supply chains and the system of customs and other controls. The Revenue Commissioners and other State agencies are required by law to comply with customs controls, sanitary and phytosanitary checks and regulations in respect of goods moving between the United Kingdom and Ireland. The advent of such checks has necessitated investment in our ports and the need to replace temporary facilities with permanent infrastructure.

The infrastructure at Rosslare Europort is being developed by the Office of Public Works on behalf of Revenue and other Departments and agencies. The permanent infrastructure project consists of the construction of terminal 7, enabling works and a new border control post. The works consist of various phases of construction that will deliver new and improved facilities, entry and exit access, and significant upgrading of the infrastructure across several areas. The total cost for the Rosslare project is €236 million inclusive of VAT. Costs are being apportioned across the relevant Departments and agencies. The apportionment ratio in respect of the Revenue Commissioners is 34.4%, with Revenue's total portion over the lifetime of the project expected to cost €81.3 million. The funding requirements for the remainder of 2024 for Rosslare are €17.2 million.

Also included in the Supplementary Estimate is funding for the continued detention of the MV Matthew. It was seized in October 2023 and it has since been held at the Port of Cork in connection with ongoing court proceedings against eight persons who have been charged in relation to the seizure of more than 2,253 kg of cocaine from the vessel. In order to meet the remaining Rosslare infrastructure costs along with funding for the continued detention of the MV Matthew, a Supplementary Estimate of just under €20 million is required by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I thank members for their attention. I commend the 2024 substantive and technical Supplementary Estimate for the Revenue Commissioners to the committee and I am happy to address any questions that members may have.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Conway-Walsh wish to contribute?

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State. I do not have any questions. It is straightforward.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister of State fill us in a little on the boat that is being held? The Minister of State outlined it there. It is a €20 million cost.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am limited in what I can say because it is subject to court proceedings.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The boat has been held for some time in order to allow it be submitted as evidence to those court proceedings and it is hoped that process will conclude in the coming months. It requires quite a bit of maintenance through this period. We hope we will not require it much longer than another month or so.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who gains from the payment of that €20 million? How does it happen?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The €20 million is paid to the people who maintain the boat and are harbouring it in the Port of Cork. This is keeping the scene preserved in order that it can be used in court proceedings.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. Can the Minister of State tell me a little about the black economy and the Revenue Commissioners' examination of containers that come in through our ports relative to cigarette smuggling, alcohol smuggling and so on? We have been told by those at the coalface of retail business that there is a huge amount of undetected cigarettes and alcohol coming through the ports and that the Revenue Commissioners do not have the appropriate number of scanners available to them in the ports to increase their scrutiny of what is coming into the State.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The surveillance of all ports of entry into the State, both regulated and unregulated, is carried out via a multi-agency process. An Garda Síochána, the Revenue, the ports services themselves, the Department of agriculture and many other bodies are involved in this process. As the Cathaoirleach will have noted from the headlines in the media last year, there has been a huge number of seizures of illegal drugs, but also illegal alcohol and illegal cigarettes - some of the largest seizures we have seen in the history of the State. The direct funding is made to the Revenue Commissioners to play their part in that.

I met with the retailers the Cathaoirleach mentioned - all the representative bodies - because prior to taking on this role I was the Minister of State with responsibility for retail, a role similar to that the Cathaoirleach once held. We acknowledge their concerns but funding has continued to increase for Revenue to make sure that it is appropriately and suitably equipped for this. It is something on which we always take a proactive approach to make sure they have all the resources they need in this regard.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That does not take from the fact that it is reported to us that there was a €48 million loss of revenue to the State because of the quantity of cigarettes and alcohol being smuggled through our ports. That affects small retailers. I understand that one can buy illegal cigarettes within a stone's throw of this House. There are known outlets that sell illegal cigarettes. There are individuals, and I would say businesses now, that are known to Revenue that sell single cigarettes. Likewise, when on looks at the trade across the Border, there is an amount of fuel, both coal and diesel, but particularly coal, coming in. The Minister of State has probably met the merchants' representative group. They constantly complain, and provide figures to back this up, that Revenue and the local authorities have not cracked down on the illegal transactions taking place. That is a huge concern. A lot of the highly populated areas here in Dublin almost have a shop selling illegal cigarettes. I cannot match that with the loss of revenue to the State and the need for more scanners. Has the Department ever received a request from Revenue to provide extra funding for scanners and other equipment that would intervene and stop the progress of these illegal imports?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The concerns the Cathaoirleach raises are 100% valid. I do not doubt them for an instant. As the Cathaoirleach will be aware, I have had these conversations with retailers. Of course, the responsibility for enforcement in this area lies with a number of agencies, including Revenue.

Next year, Revenue will receive a record budget of €610 million to ensure it has adequate provisions in terms of both equipment and people to ensure it has the highest number of checks. This is an ongoing issue, and I refer to the record haul of illegal cigarettes seized this year, which is something to be welcomed. Fuel smuggling across the Border remains a concern, however, in terms of solid fuel and red and green diesel. That is a long-standing issue we have encountered. We have also seen quite a number of diesel washing plants busted over the past year. We continue to invest it. Every request for additional funding that has been received will be met. It is not necessarily just about funding, but this is chasing an illicit activity that requires that continuing increase in investment and resources. Of course, our doors are always open to any representative bodies or individual traders who are aware of this activity. We make sure the Revenue Commissioners, other agencies and State bodies are fully funded to ensure they can chase this activity down as best possible. Indeed, I put the appeal out to any individuals who are aware of illegal cigarette sales, individual cigarette sales or whatever they may be that this is illegal activity which should be reported to An Garda Síochána first and foremost.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will not labour the point. The retailers have reported it to me, the Garda and any public representative they have met in this House. It seems there is almost a reluctance to tackle that illegal activity head-on and prevent it. They refer to the lack of scanners at the various entry points to the country. I am highlighting it here because my background was in retail at one stage, and I understand the margins are tight, as is the regulation. Yet, we have these illegal activities going on affecting people and their family businesses. We have to do everything we possibly can to stop them. The Minister of State should put it to Revenue and ask if there is a requirement for more infrastructure to enable it to do its job fully across the different Departments you would meet at a port for investigation.

Likewise, I raised a question. I do not expect the Minister of State to know the answer, nor am I looking for it. This issue was in the courts. A taxpayer, Mr. Dermot Tobin, appeared before the committee. The case has a huge impact on farming and businesses and relates to the period within which Revenue can go back. I think it is four years. In this case, Revenue went back a multiple of that and brought the man to court as a kind of test case. I asked the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, and I now ask the Minister of State, to look at that case, and, where appropriate, bring forward the necessary legislation to ensure the four-year rule is protected, because businesses and the Law Society are concerned about the outcome of that case and the impact it will have in the future because it was a test case. This man has now been left to pay all of his legal costs, even though he paid his taxes and everything. He was found, in some cases, to be right in what he did and was not trying to do anything illegal, but Revenue wanted to prove a point so that, presumably, it can apply that precedent everywhere. It is an issue. People are very concerned about raising it because it might seem like tax fraud; it is not. It is a real concern for businesses, and I ask the Minister of State to look at that with the Revenue chairman.

It is very difficult to engage with Revenue's public offices. Some of them are not open or do not open and it is hard to get people on the phone. That is not the case for a public representative, however, as a good service is in place. For ordinary citizens, however, who want to engage on their issues with Revenue, it is a concern that the public office facility is not more available to those who have a concern. I am raising these issues with the Minister of State because they have been raised at meetings of this committee and elsewhere. I ask the Minister of State to take note of them.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have a question about Brexit-associated costs on Rosslare and any other locations. What has the total been and who has borne it?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Durkan. On the Chairperson's point, I assure him I will undertake the two latter issues he raised, particularly regarding the issue of the illicit smuggling of cigarettes. I am more than happy to make sure Revenue has, as I said, the adequate resources it requires. I share the Chair's concern in that regard. On the other two issues regarding the legal case and public offices, I completely understand them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Since it is placed on record, the Minister of State might send the committee a copy of a note to that effect and maybe raise it with the chairman of Revenue and ask him to correspond with the committee, whoever is here after 29 November, or whenever it is going to be. We will be able to take it up. They are genuine, honest-to-God cases.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I attended the meeting on the four-year rule. I support the Cathaoirleach's request given the damage that has been done in that regard. If the Minister of State looks at it with clear eyes, he will see this needs to be rectified. I want to be associated with that.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I will make sure a letter is sent from me to the Chair and make sure a copy is furnished to the committee. I will allow the Chair to make sure the copy is circulated to all members of the committee.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I was doing a little bit of mathematics in my head. I appreciate Deputy Durkan raising this issue. The total amount the taxpayer has paid so far is €68.5 million to the end of this year, which will cover the required costs at Rosslare post Brexit.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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All the installations?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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All the installations.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I support the point made by the Chairman and my colleague. Revenue can look back as long as it wishes, but the taxpayer can only benefit to a maximum of four years. It used to be different once upon a time, but we all support the concept that it is fair for everybody.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is important to note that approximately €51 million of the money for Rosslare, most of it, qualified for Brexit adjustment reserve funding through our good friends across the European Union.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I propose that we agree that consideration of Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Finance has concluded. Is that agreed? Agreed.