Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Apologies have been received from the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Paul Kehoe. I remind members and officials to please ensure mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with broadcasting equipment, even when on silent mode. This meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 26, education, which has been referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, and her officials and thank them for the briefing document provided ahead of the meeting. Given the time constraints, members will each have a five-minute slot to ask general questions on the Vote. I ask the Minister to make her opening statement.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. I begin by wishing the Chairman a speedy recovery.

I am pleased to be here this morning together with officials from my Department. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak with its members and ask for their consideration of the Department's Supplementary Estimates for 2024. Following approval by the Government, the Department is seeking a net Supplementary Estimate of €960 million for the 2024 year.

This Supplementary Estimate includes additional funding to provide for delivery of required school accommodation, including mainstream classes, special class and special school places to meet September 2024 needs and, as announced earlier this year, bringing close to 90 projects, including a further 28 new school buildings, to construction during 2024 and early 2025 as part of our overall forward planning and to provide for other capital investment in schools. It also includes continued services that are needed for the additional Ukrainian students in the school system; cost-of-living measures that were agreed during the year that will be paid out in 2024; and other costs in the demand-led service areas of school payrolls, pensions and transport, including the full provision for public sector pay deal costs arising in 2024.

I will outline the key elements for the information of the committee. Current expenditure funding includes additional grant funding to schools of €50 million to meet the costs of inflation and support the roll-out of key initiatives. There were additional pay requirements in the school sector of €363 million. This includes resources for additional staff allocated to schools due to increased school enrolments, which also includes additional enrolments as a result of the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, including extra English as an additional language teachers, mainstream and special needs teachers and special needs assistants. Costs relating to public sector pay and pension deals approved by Government in February 2024 were not fully provided for in the original funding allocations for this year, given the timing of an agreement. There is also a range of other pay-related pressures arising from higher enrolments.

Some of the €129 million of additional school transport funding is required for a range of initiatives and additional services introduced during 2024. This includes a cost-of-living measure to maintain reduced school transport fees and the provision of additional services due to an increased number of pupils seeking places on school buses. There were also additional transport services and routes needed for Ukrainian pupils and other expenditure pressures across the existing school transport services. An additional €21 million of funding is required to cover the loss of income and additional costs in the State Examinations Commission. The loss of income relates to the budget 2025 decision made to again waive the entry fees for junior and senior cycle students sitting their exams in 2025. The additional costs were incurred to ensure 2024 State examination results were available to students in a timely manner. There is also a €3 million requirement to fund the commencement of a shared Island project on educational underachievement and some additional legal costs.

A significant additional capital allocation of €517 million is provided for in this Supplementary Estimate. This is required to meet significant budgetary pressure which is primarily attributed to the continued delivery of an ambitious school building programme in 2024 and continuing into 2025. The funding represents an increase of approximately 15% on our 2023 outturn and is supporting the continued roll-out of urgently needed school building projects. Our school building programme has a strong focus on addressing demand arising from demographics at post-primary level, as well as the requirement for additional school places due to the expansion of housing in parts of the country.

The provision of accommodation for children with special education needs is also at the heart of our priorities and a core driver of investment. We are greatly expanding the network of special classes throughout the country. We have also opened four new special schools for the current school year, with five more announced for next year. There is an additional funding allowance for the expansion of school places to significantly increase provision for special education and upgrading and modernising our school infrastructure. Furthermore, schools act as a key enabler for sustainable housing development and, through access to facilities, play a vital role in supporting the social fabric of new and growing communities beyond the provision of education.

As announced earlier in the year, close to 90 projects, including a further 28 new school buildings, are being authorised to proceed to construction during 2024 and early 2025. In total, approximately €800 million will be invested in these projects under the Department’s large-scale capital programme and additional accommodation scheme. This is all part of our forward planning to meet future needs. The additional capital funding is also being provided to support digital learning in schools and minor building works through grants paid to schools in 2024 and for EU financed REPowerEU green initiatives.

An estimated additional €128 million in appropriations-in-aid income in excess of the amount provided for in the original Revised Estimates Volume allocations is included in the Supplementary Estimate and will partly offset the expenditure pressures I have outlined. The bulk of this additional income is represented by one-off EU moneys from its REACT programme that allows for the reimbursement of some of the Covid-related supports provided to schools previously. There are also some increases to the pension contributions received due to additional numbers being employed in our schools.

I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and I welcome her and her officials. My questions cover a number of different areas, so I do not know if she wants to take them as a block or one by one. Will the Minister outline to the committee what impact, if any, the Supplementary Estimate will have on the pay and conditions of school secretaries and caretakers? Will she also outline what, if any, impact the additional Estimate will have on the roll-out of the review of the school transport scheme?

I turn to the pilot scheme for therapists in school. This week, the media has extensively covered the shortage of teachers and the impact that is having, based on a survey carried out by the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO.

Will the Minister outline what impact, if any, these Supplementary Estimates will have?

This is the first time I recall a note being sent by the Department to parents of sixth class students strongly advising them to apply for multiple school places. Will the Minister outline what, if any, impact these additional Estimates will have on that? I am presuming this is an attempt by the Department to head off issues arising in September 2025.

As regards subhead A15, which relates to primary and post-primary infrastructure, will the Minister outline what is included in that? What is a temporary school premises? Sin é.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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On school secretaries and caretakers, the Deputy will be aware that all school secretaries who were keen to come onto the payroll of the Department of Education have now signed up and crossed over. They are now automatically paid by the Department of Education as distinct from receiving payment from their school board or through grants received by the board. I gave a commitment that a similar provision would be put in place for school caretakers. A body of work, similar to the one required for school secretaries, is now under way for the school caretakers. That is moving at pace. They will, therefore, have the same opportunities, should they so wish, to be paid by the Department of Education going forward.

On teacher staffing, a number of measures have been in recent years on teacher supply. We have more than 78,000 teachers in the system currently being paid by the Department. That is more than 43,000 teachers at primary level and approximately 35,000 at post-primary level, which is an increase of 5,000 additional teachers over the lifetime of this Government. Some measures are being introduced in this budget, including things like a STEM - science, technology, engineering and mathematics - bursary. This budget is providing for two bursaries of €2,000, to be paid in third and fourth year of university, for students who will opt to become teachers in the area of STEM. Approximately 800 students are eligible to apply for that grant. That builds on the €2,000 grant provided last year for those who wish to do a master’s degree in education.

There is also a provision in this budget, as there was in last year's budget, for 1,000 posts of responsibility for a trajectory of promotion within schools. Those are for primary and post-primary level. We have also made provision in this budget for the upskilling of teachers in order that there will be a sufficiency of teachers in core areas that are currently under pressure, including languages, whether it is Irish, French or Spanish, and in the sciences, whether mathematics, physics or whatever else. That will be kept under review.

Provided for in this budget, and in previous ones, is an ongoing commitment to pathways into teaching for those who might need additional supports when it comes to choosing teaching as a career. This is achieved through programmes in DCU, NUI Maynooth or through the migrant teacher bridging programme, which is a successful one.

As regards therapy supports, six special schools have been announced, of which four will be in Cork and two in Dublin. This is a joint project with the HSE. The Deputy will understand that its area of expertise is in the area of school therapies but it is working with the Department of Education and the National Council for Special Education on this pilot programme. We hope to see this programme grow further in future.

Letters were sent to parents asking them to consider applying to a number of schools and to notify the other schools concerned once they have accepted a school place. This is an acknowledgement that there will always be challenges in some areas, particularly areas of growth. We are trying to streamline the application process. We are aware that, on occasion, parents are already applying to a number of schools and accepting places in a number of schools. There can be a difficulty in this regard. We are attempting to streamline that. Parents have been communicated with in order that we will have a clearer line of sight as regards the choices parents are making and their determination to choose one school over another.

The Department has engaged and will continue to engage one-to-one with schools where additional accommodation is required. It can be difficult, however, if parents accept places in a number of schools. I understand why parents apply to a number of schools, but perhaps we could streamline when they accept a place that it becomes clear that they do not require a place in another school.

Did I miss something else?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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The school transport funding costs and subhead A15.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. As regards school transport, a number of recommendations came out of the review of school transport. A phased implementation of the review has begun, and that includes the pilot projects. We have funding in place to continue the pilot projects and add to them. Our ambition is, as we have outlined previously to this committee, to ensure that by 2030 we will have a further 100,000 students availing of school transport.

Was there another question?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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On subhead A15, infrastructure.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Loftus is very keen to cover that one.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

That relates to temporary school premises so it relates to the-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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If I might interrupt, officials cannot address select committee meetings. I apologise. I ask the Minister to address the matter.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I was giving the committee the opportunity to hear from the head of planning and building. The subhead is used to fund school accommodation. This is A15: to buy sites, deliver smaller scale works in schools, provide furniture and equipment and address remediation works. The current allocation subhead provides for grants towards rental of temporary school premises at primary and post-primary, but the rental of those buildings is not a factor within this Supplementary Estimate. It is not a feature of the Supplementary Estimate.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We are well over time. Does the Deputy want to ask a very short supplementary question?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It is just that it seems such a broad heading. I ask, through the Chair, that the Department come back with a greater breakdown of what it is. "Infrastructure" is a very general term.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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By infrastructure, we mean school buildings, really, specifically the project roll-out of those school buildings. I am very happy to come back-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but the Minister also said "remediation works". Equipment and furniture are mentioned here.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The Minister might be able to come back to the Deputy with a detailed breakdown.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, absolutely.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials before the committee. What appears to be the most significant part of the Supplementary Estimates is the significant additional capital allocation of €517 million in respect of the schools building programme. I very much welcome the significant activity on the part of the programme, not just in my constituency but throughout the country. The Minister mentions in her statement that one of the reasons for this is the demand arising from the increase in our population and the expansion of housing. Has that just become more focused in recent years or is this something the Department had predicted?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We have a forward planning unit within the Department and it is very successful. We now liaise with local authorities, for example, on their future projections. We also gather all the data that is necessary. It is a GIS system. We engage with child benefit and so on. As regards the figures we are talking about here, we have currently 350 projects on the ground at construction, and the funding is allowing us to do just that. In addition, for example, looking at the new-build, large-scale projects, there is a 70% increase in the number of large-scale builds this year as opposed to last year. As regards the additional school accommodation, with which everybody here will be familiar, there is a 35% increase between this year and last year. We really are powering ahead with additional school accommodation.

We have also made reference here to the very significant increase in provision for children with additional needs. As this Government comes to a close, we will have 15 new special schools brought onstream over its lifetime and we will have more than 3,300 special classes. We have doubled during the lifetime of this Government the provision of special classes. I am not by a long mile saying we have completed the work; an awful lot more work needs to be done here. We have, however, made significant progress, and funding, like the funding that is earmarked in the Supplementary Estimate, has facilitated us in doing just that.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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How is the school building unit doing in terms of projects coming in on time and on budget?

Sometimes we only hear of capital developments by the State that do not come in on time and on budget, but am I correct in saying very many of them do come in on time and on budget?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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100%. We have a very strong record of being on time and on budget. I acknowledge the work of the planning and building unit and am here in the company of Mr. Loftus, but I also acknowledge the work of all those who work with the Department to ensure there is strong delivery.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister mentioned already the provision of accommodation for children with special educational needs. I think I am right in saying it is now the case that any new schools being developed will automatically have special educational needs classrooms.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What is the Department's role in trying to facilitate and assist schools that have been there for a longer time and may have difficulty in identifying space for SEN classrooms?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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In the first instance I want to talk about the National Council for Special Education and how we have expanded it significantly. We made provision in the previous budget for an additional 160 staff and that they would be specifically people who were on the ground, such as the special needs organisers who are engaging directly on the ground with the schools. We also see it now as part of their remit that they engage directly with the parents as well. We have two national co-ordinators within this area of special education now and 21 teams spread across the country to ensure they are actually on the ground and there is a more local approach being taken to the needs of children with additional needs.

We are working very closely with schools on the ground. For example, we have a number of schools that are being targeted for 2025 for additional provision. In larger primary schools where we need to put in additional accommodation, we have put in additional accommodation. Where schools can reconfigure, and some of them can, we provide the funding for the reconfiguration of existing school buildings. As I said, we have more than 3,300 special classes on stream presently and there will be 44,000 dedicated staff working in the area of special education. This budget has also made provision for 1,600 additional SNAs and 768 special education teachers. There is a huge body of work going on in the area of special education and more and more required in that area.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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This is not a question but a comment. I am not sure whether the Minister has had an opportunity yet to look at the new school on Harcourt Terrace. Harcourt Terrace Educate Together National School is an absolutely fantastic building. I commend the planning and building unit on it and hope to see the Minister out there shortly so she can see the benefit of the good work being done by her Department.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy very much.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Very good. That concludes the discussion. I thank the Minister and her officials for the constructive engagement at this meeting. That concludes our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 26.