Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 17 October 2024

Committee on Public Petitions

Consideration of Public Petition on Voting for Irish-born Citizens Abroad: Discussion

1:30 pm

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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A delegation from the Czech Republic has been unable to join us. We wish its members all the best on their journey home tomorrow morning.

Next on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting. The minutes were deferred so we are okay.

I will read some formal notices before going any further. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen sit to, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

The next business is our engagement with Ms Gráinne McLoughlin, petitioner, on Petition No. P00060/24 regarding voting for Irish-born citizens abroad. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practices of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the witnesses, Ms Gráinne McLoughlin, the petitioner, and Ms Caitriona Nolan. They are welcome. Ms McLoughlin is here to discuss her petition regarding her feeling that the Government should allow Irish-born citizens their right to vote as stated in the ninth amendment to the Irish Constitution. Voting rights in Ireland are rigid in comparison with other EU member states. Ms McLoughlin has submitted an opening statement. It will be taken as read and has been published.

In 2006, 36 European countries allowed their overseas immigrants to vote. Postal ballots have been suggested but in the current digital environment, voting can take place by digital means. Failing this, voting can take place in person in consulates and embassies. There is increasing globalisation and it is disenfranchising of Ireland to not allow voting rights to its citizens abroad. Half of those emigrating are in the age group of 25 to 44, and a huge number of Ireland's young voices are not being heard in elections. Irish emigrants are not losing touch with Ireland because of fast improvements in technology such as the Internet. Those who intend to return have a right to continue to have a say in how their country is run. The accelerating trend globally is towards allowing overseas citizens to vote in all elections. Ireland has the most restrictive voting rights in the world in terms of overseas voting. Inclusivity means that all voices, including those of Irish citizens living abroad, should be heard.

Members will now have the opportunity to ask questions of Ms McLoughlin. Each member will have ten minutes and we will allow people to come back in if they want to speak more than once.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our witnesses. I have been considering this issue for a long time. There is a massive Irish diaspora living across the world. I can only speak for myself, but the minute your foot steps outside this country, you become more patriotic. It does not matter where you are on holidays. You become more patriotic and it is as simple as that.

In its response, the Department mentioned a couple of things about the changes that would be required to articles of the Constitution. It also referred to the Fifth Report of the Convention on the Constitution. I am in agreement with the proposal. If you were here on holidays from Australia, you could go to the embassy to cast your vote. We must always remember that people fought and died for the right to vote. It took a long time for women to get the right to vote. This is about equality and representation. Politics can sometimes be nasty and dirty. I often say to people that it does not matter who you vote for. Once you vote, you have a right to complain. You have a voice. That is my take on the matter.

This is a joined-up committee. I am in agreement with the petition. It is one of the most democratic functions on the planet as it stands. I saw a big difference between the 2016 election and the 2020 election. Younger people have been very disappointed. I met many who went to polling stations but do not have a vote. Others sit on their backsides and do nothing other than complain when it is all over. In the programme for Government, there was a commitment to doing it but, unfortunately, it did not progress. This committee is intended to raise the concerns of ordinary, everyday persons like us. The witnesses should not judge me by the shirt and tie I am wearing because I will have my tracksuit on later. We are all the same people.

We are talking about millions of people, scattered all over the world, who do not have a say as to what goes on in Ireland. Unfortunately, the only say they have when they are living here is to take the option to emigrate. That loses connection, in one sense. On the other side, with the Internet and all the technology we have now, the world has become so small. I had a party one night with a fellow in Canada. He was below in Cork and we had a great old chat. The world has become that small. I agree that this issue should be considered when we democratically elect a government. We have a proud history. People on the far side of the world may not be watching this meeting but after today, that concern will be raised. I am delighted because people have a perception that they need thousands of signatures to come before the Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsman. That is not so. Everybody has an equal voice and an equal right and that is what it should be about.

I would also consider lowering the age limit for voting. We have considered organising that on a trial basis for the presidential election to see how it progresses. There will be an election in the coming weeks rather than months. Perhaps there will be a change of Government and policy can change. There is an option there under a particular article of the Constitution.

I refer to Articles 12.2.2°, 16, and 47.2 of the Constitution. There is a provision to change it and I am delighted we are here discussing same.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I am in agreement. It is a bit worrying, if we are moving forward as a country, that we are not keeping up with everyone else. Even with the EU, we need to be moving forward a little bit. It is not even all of the Irish connections. There are approximately 3 million people who grew up here and it is about looking at those people first.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Is that people who are still Irish passport holders living abroad?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Yes. It is people who emigrated probably on a short-term basis but found that they enjoyed their life there. They may, at some point, want to come back and have children or they may have elderly parents whom they want to come back and look after. Just because people have gone does not mean they want to give up citizenship.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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As I said, people feel more patriotic the minute they step outside the country than they do when they come in.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Yes.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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That is a valid point. One would imagine, Chair, this would be a commonsense approach. If people still have their Irish passport with a reference number on it, that is a true identity document. Surely these people still have their PPS number as well. They should be able to vote online or go to the nearest embassy in whatever country they are in.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Voting can be done digitally. For example, graduates of Trinity College can vote in Seanad elections. If we can find a way to do that, why can we not extend it, using consulates and embassies all over the world to allow people to vote digitally? Perhaps changing the whole system to digital might be better, cheaper and all the rest.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Citizens abroad are interested in this. We spoke about this earlier in a private meeting.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

As I asked, can we not extend it?

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Brazilians in their thousands voted here a couple of months ago. At the minute, Americans are voting in their election.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If all other countries are doing it, and Ireland is supposed to be one of the richest countries in Europe, why can we not extend a voting facility to our citizens?

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is because they will not-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

The cost.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lack of political will. It would involve amending the Electoral Act 1963. I have just marked it in my notes to flag the matter. We can see whether that can be changed. As out guests have said, the digital age is so advanced now that I cannot see major costs being incurred.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

That is what I mean. It would not cost a massive amount.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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People would log on to a Government website.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If all these aspects are locked in, the costs would be reduced.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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People in Spain, Portugal, Australia, New Zealand or wherever could log on to MyGovID, type in their PPS number and passport number, show their ID and cast their vote.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

There is always a paper trail. Making an online application has a more secure paper trail than doing it physically in a ballot box.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

In addition, passports are issued online-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Everything is done online.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

-----or people may go to an embassy in another country. If passports can be processed online, why not voting?

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The opening statement mentions that the Irish diaspora stay connected to their homeland through their parents and family. Some of them have property. Do our guests think granting this voting right would increase that interest and connection with Ireland overall?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

It would. A lot of Irish people who no longer live in this country are very proud of Irish culture, anything from Gaelic football to the language to Irish dancing. They bring their culture with them and it is very important. These people are of a certain age group. People in their 60s do not necessarily tend to emigrate and neither do young people of 18 years of age or so. It is people in their 20s and upwards who emigrate. Voting rights are quite important because these people are still connected to this country and they are still citizens.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

We also want to encourage young people to come home. Do we not want to encourage nurses and doctors, say, to come home? If people do not have the right to vote, what are they coming home to?

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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If they are making decisions, that will have an impact.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

What if people cannot make decisions? If we want to encourage people to come home, we should allow them the right to vote on who will run this country. They should be allowed to have a say in who is running the country they will come home to. As Ms McLoughlin has said, people come home for all sorts of reasons. I know of several people who have come home to look after sick parents or they just had enough and got homesick. What are they coming home to, however?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

It is like they are excluded.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

The view is one of, "You left, so you have no say any more." That does not encourage young people to return.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Ms McLoughlin and Ms Nolan are very welcome. They have started an important debate. One of the problems I have, as an Oireachtas Member, is when people are away on holidays at election time and they come to us in their droves to ask whether they can vote. They get really irritated when they learn they cannot do so. In Northern Ireland people can vote while they on holidays.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, they can vote by proxy now.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We need to start with little things. In Northern Ireland, people can vote while they are away on holidays.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Did the Senator say that people who are on holidays can vote?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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People can nominate someone else to vote in their place. It is called a proxy vote.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If that could be done and there was a way that allowed people to nominate a trusted person to vote, that would be huge.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

It would be done in front of a witness.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We should start off by doing little things like that, acknowledging that this is a big issue and the lack of voting rights does frustrate and annoy people. I know it is not the intention of our guests but I want to make it clear that a person who returns from abroad has his or her vote straight away. If a nurse or doctor returns, he or she can go on the register straight away. Somebody who has been gone for less than 18 months can be on the register. I do accept that a lot of the people whom our guests have mentioned are affected and annoyed by this matter.

I wish to mention another aspect. It has amazed me how slow this matter has progressed over the years and I have often wondered why this debate never reached the level that it is at today. Due to the involvement of our guests with this committee and coming in here today this matter will get more of an airing. Why has this matter has not become a really big issue until now?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I suppose it is there since the 1980s and certainly the 1990s. As I mentioned in my statement, Mr. Henegan had stated that the period could be extended to three years, instead of 18 months, without needing to go to a referendum. I do not know the answer to the Senator's question. The issue probably just lost traction. Perhaps people lost faith in the process because they tried to move things forward several times over the past 20 or 30 years.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We have local elections, Dáil elections, European elections and presidential elections. With European elections and Irish people living in Europe, you would think they should have a say in who will represent them in Europe. What are the views of our guests on that?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

People should be able to vote if they are in another EU country. People from other European member states are allowed to vote in their embassies here for their European Parliament representatives. Given that is being done, I do not see why the situation cannot be flipped to enable us, as Irish citizens, to vote in those countries at an embassy or a consulate.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If something can go on one way, why cannot it go the other way? It is the same thing; it is just different people.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Especially if it is in the EU.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is a two-way street, so why can the option not swing both ways?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point. Reference was made to the logistics. Should voting be done online or should people have to go to an embassy?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I suppose it is trial and error.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Using MyGovId would be a good way to go. A person needs certain identity documents and passwords to log on to that site. In addition, doing it that way would not be very costly.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Do people retain their PPS number if they are out of the country?

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If people are out of the country for more than 18 months, do they retain their PPS number?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I mentioned the four categories of elections in this country. If a process were to start with one section of that electorate, where do our guests believe we should start - with Dáil elections, European elections, presidential elections or local elections?

Do they have a preference-----

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Probably the presidential elections.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----just to get it up and running to see how it would work?

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Presidential elections because the electorate would be voting for only one person, not many. A trial run with the presidential election could be good.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is a very good answer.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

The ballot sheet would be a bit shorter.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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When I discussed this before with people, I was surprised by some saying they did not want people who have gone out of the country deciding on their future. However, I do not believe it would be like that.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

No.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

No.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe what was said about a presidential election, where the electorate would be voting for a figurehead, let us be honest-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is just one person.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That person would not be making Government decisions. The President has to examine and sign off on Bills but he or she is a figurehead.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is just a starting point.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we should start there and see how it works.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

A trial. You could see where things go wrong and they could be corrected. It would not have a huge effect across the board-----

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Trial and error.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

-----as in the case of voting on who gets into government.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Before the petitioners go any further, I wish to let them know about the permanent postal or proxy vote. To apply for a permanent postal or proxy vote, one must have a valid reason. It includes the following: illness or disability, being away from home for education reasons, and being away from home for reasons of work or employment. That is the system in Northern Ireland for nominating a proxy to vote on your behalf if you are not in the country.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That applies only to Defence Forces personnel and such people who are working-----

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In Northern Ireland, the proxy vote applies to the general public even. I could nominate a family member or somebody in the community-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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In the North.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Down here, it applies only to the likes of people in the Defence Forces. They can vote but nobody else can.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That is the postal vote for Defence Forces personnel who are out of the country.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Many people do not know about these ways of doing things. If people did, many more would take part.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is crazy in that if Martha and I were outside the country at the same time, and I were on holidays and she on business, she could vote while I would not be able to do so. It makes no sense. If you can vote when out of the country for work, why should you not be able to vote if you are out of the country on holiday. There is no difference.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I would be really interested in what the ladies are saying and maybe starting with the people on holidays and then with presidential elections. That is good-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

And maybe doing it digitally through MyGovID. You have to have a specific ID for that and you cannot-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is very true.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is Government run.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is all I have to ask. It is really progressive that we are having this debate. Well done. I really appreciate it.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I thank the Senator.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Ms McLoughlin did all the legwork. We are probably picking up where others started.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Having listened to the petitioners and read the submitted material, I note they have no agenda other than to give people in the Irish diaspora-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

A voice.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

A voice.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----the right to a voice.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

As has been said, we fought so hard to have a voice, particularly for women. The women do not even get the acknowledgement they deserve for their part in helping to give a voice to the country. It is now 2024, 100 years down the line, so it is time to start changing.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Given the way in which hacking is occurring, do the petitioners believe Internet voting is the safest way to proceed? There is a big possibility of hacking, as we saw in the HSE and elsewhere.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Even with paper votes, there are spoiled votes and so on. There will be trial and error. There is a saying, "Don't knock it till you try it." You have to try something out to see if it works.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I totally agree.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

It would cut out the spoiled votes.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It would cut out spoiled votes as well, especially through a Government system such as MyGovID. All it takes is making a little, separate section at voting time. It would be very cost effective.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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There was a Government Bill introduced in 2019 to allow non-resident citizens to vote. That Bill lapsed in 2020 when the Dáil was dissolved. Did the petitioners go to any TD to try to have that Bill reintroduced, or did they just come straight here?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

No, we just came straight here.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a new Dáil soon, so the petitioners should get cracking and get them to bring a Bill forward.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That might not be until the new year, unless the Senator has a bit of information-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is still coming.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is still coming; I totally agree with the Senator.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I have my email blocked at this stage. I have refused representatives-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is her favourite pastime.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine every one of us in this room has had someone belonging to us-----

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Yes.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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-----in the circumstances in question. We are baby-sitting a dog at the minute for a niece of my wife. She is gone for 18 months. We think she intends to come back, but we are stuck with the dog.

On what the committee can do, we could contact a Minister and try to put on pressure. Everybody here, and most people we talk to, agree with the petitioners that there are appropriate systems available. Given that there are Third World countries in Africa where people queue for days to cast a vote, maybe we can have a system for citizens who have left the country. As Senator Murphy said, if a citizen is gone for 40 years, that is fine, but if the period is 18 months or two or three years, most people at that stage-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Even a ten- or 15-year period.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

I think that in the UK, people are taken off the register after 15 years.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

In that case, you will have decided to make your life elsewhere and you could re-register if you came home.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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At that stage, you will have decided whether you are staying or coming home.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Exactly.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

If you want people to come home, you have to give them a say in what they are coming home to. That is very important. There is a huge trend already in Ireland whereby people do not feel heard on anything.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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There is correspondence back from the Department that has been sent to the petitioners. We will not be able to move anything forward until we get correspondence back-----

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Yes.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The question is whether we will be able to have another meeting.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

The members are probably all on a timeline.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is probably bad timing.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That is up to the Government parties, not Opposition parties.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

There is not much of a debate when we all agree on the subject.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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In time, it will be appropriate for this committee, or a new one, to write to the Taoiseach, whoever will be Minister for Foreign Affairs and whoever will have responsibility for local government, because the latter, as the Chair knows-----

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The advice I have been given is that the petitioners should respond to us as quickly as possible so the secretariat can get in touch with the Minister and the Taoiseach. If the committee falls in the meantime, they will know what the response is on whether they need to do anything else and on how to move forward.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Would the members recommend going to our local TDs and getting them to push as well?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is up to the petitioners whether to take this advice, but I would wait until people are re-elected or newly elected. When those Members are bedded in, the witnesses can get on to them about this and say it has already been raised with a committee.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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All right.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Should we not catch them in the run-up to an election, when they are looking for the votes?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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One will need the TDs to submit a motion afterwards. However, it should by all means be mentioned to any candidate.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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When somebody is knocking on the petitioners doors, they should ask the questions.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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If we are lucky enough to come back here, we will be fighting the case for the petitioners at this committee.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is no politics at this committee. It is very good.

On the response from the Department, reference was made to using MyGovID. It is a matter of putting another line in with a box, with, say, five names-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Literally, that is it.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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In March 2017, the then Department of local government and housing and the Department of Foreign Affairs produced an options paper setting out what they called the broad range of options. Options are ideas and solutions but what got me were the references to voting rights, international comparisons, estimated costs and related resource issues, as well as legal, policy, administrative and logistical challenges. I did not see any ideas in it. That is what worried me.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

No. They have got a problem for every solution.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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They listed all the problems and said they did not really want what was proposed.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

That is the problem. It is kind of like you are not getting heard because the powers that be do not want you to be heard.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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To be really honest with everybody, there will be citizens who are vehemently opposed to this.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Yes.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There are citizens who agree. I think what the witnesses are doing is very legitimate and we are looking for a way to develop this. Certainly, from what the witnesses are saying to the Chair, they do not want the system abused in any way. I can see from them.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

No.

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

We need to start from somewhere.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There are people who will have this opinion that they should not have any say. I want to warn the witnesses about that. It will happen-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

That is no problem.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----but I do think a lot of people would be in favour of this. As I said earlier, start off with the holiday issue, and maybe look then at the possibility in a few years of a presidential election on which they can vote - I do not know - but it is well worth following up.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is a good step.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I am just looking at some of the correspondence here that I had myself. There are plans to trial Internet voting in Bulgaria. Trials are taking place in Sweden and at local and regional level in Wales. Estonia is the only member state that has fully implemented Internet voting but it has been abandoned in France and the Netherlands, and in Germany, voting machines have been established in court as unconstitutional.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Wow.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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They are between six or seven different countries.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Pandora's box has been opened.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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If the witnesses get the correspondence back, then the secretariat can start getting that kind of information for them, and see what kind of system is out there that suits the Irish-----

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

It is trial and error but anything is a start.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It is just trying something.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses have opened that already by even coming in here. We have heard no argument for disagreement with it.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

We should all go down to the bar.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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This is actually now, as we speak, a public forum. It is not a private forum; it is being watched by a number of people.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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We are live on TV.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses have made the case very well.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Once that screen comes on you are live.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Do not worry, you are doing perfect.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Just edit me out.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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They are all at home now looking at you on screen.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Nolan know where she is going after this committee meeting?

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

I will be hiding my face; I am famous now.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Both the witnesses' names are up there in lights.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Have members any other issues?

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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No, just to say that it is opening the door. The witnesses have done that now. They have opened the conversation again. This is a people's forum here. We are probably talking weeks when there will be a change of government. I would encourage the witnesses to come back because a petitions committee will be formed after a new Dáil. It has been trialled. Some places have disagreed and some agreed with it. The witnesses have their evidence-based stuff there already but the big fire they lit in my head was that we have that international site.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Yes, it is there.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The website is there already.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

Just add something because you need the specific ID.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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We have enough of an IT gang on in this country who are so well-----

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

It would be airtight doing it that way.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Definitely. Thanks a million to the witnesses for that. I hope they enjoyed their few minutes live on TV.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

I thank the Deputy for listening.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Do Ms McLoughlin or Ms Nolan wish to say anything else?

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Do I hear back or do I need to email again myself?

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses should email back the correspondence that has been sent to them.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

I think it has been emailed already..

Ms Gráinne McLoughlin:

Grand, okay.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

I thank the committee for listening.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Then we can keep the process moving for as long as we are here.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to say that, Chair. It would be really essential if the witnesses worked towards getting their petitions back in after the setting up of the new committee after the general election.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Any correspondence that comes back may shunt it down a different route of getting what the witnesses are requesting. The quicker we get it back, the quicker the lads can start working on it.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

So the members might be gone after the general election?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Hopefully not.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I was gone in 2019 for three months before the general election.

I thank Ms McLoughlin and Ms Nolan for coming back in to speak to us today and we will formally consider their petition. We will make the relevant recommendations as soon as we get back.

Ms Caitriona Nolan:

I thank the committee so much.

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We will now suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave.

Sitting suspended at 2.54 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.