Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Niamh Smyth and Alan Farrell. This meeting has been convened to consider Supplementary Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána, Vote 21 - Prisons, Vote 22 - Courts Service and Vote 24 - Justice. The Supplementary Estimates were referred on 15 October 2024. Under Standing Orders, the role of the committee is to consider the Supplementary Estimates and thereafter to report that we have done so by way of a message to the Dáil.

I thank the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and her officials for attending and assisting our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates. I also thank them for the provision of information related to them. I propose to have the Minister make brief openings remarks, after which I will invite members to contribute. In keeping with this committee's normal approach I propose that we consider each Supplementary Vote in order, subhead by subhead. We can than have some brief closing remarks. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that in accordance with Standing Orders, discussion should be confined to the items constituting these Supplementary Estimates. I also remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in any way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to begin.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Good afternoon, Chair. I thank members for making time to consider these Supplementary Estimates. I am joined from the Department by Ms Yvonne Furey, assistant secretary, Ms Niamh Merrigan, assistant principal, and Mr. Aonghus O'Connor, principal officer.

On Vote 20, budget 2024 reflects the commitment of the Government to ensuring our communities are safe and that An Garda Síochána has the resources required to operate effectively. The budget provided by the Government to the Garda Commissioner continues to increase to unprecedented levels, with an allocation of more than €2.25 billion for 2024. This Supplementary Estimate comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €66.88 million, which is offset by a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid receipts of €29 million. This gives a net additional requirement of almost €37.88 million for the Garda Vote.

The supplementary funding request is principally driven by an additional €61 million for Garda overtime to increase high-visibility policing and serious crime investigations across the State. We are committed to building safer, stronger communities. The additional overtime expenditure has arisen mainly due to the investigation of organised and serious crime activities, high-profile fatal incidents as well as a particular focus on antisocial behaviour, public order, assaults and drug-related crimes. Payroll and superannuation costs account for over 80% of the Garda Vote. In the region of €29 million relating to additional superannuation contributions is offsetting expenditure in other subheads, including for certain inflationary costs.

The subheads with the largest underspends include clothing and accessories, at €8.4 million. This relates to a timing issue for the procurement of thousands of units of new body armour, but that is concluding. Some €16.5 million under superannuation is the result of a welcome lower than expected number of retirements and issues relating to the migration of Garda pension payments to the National Shared Services Office. The third such subhead is the capital building programme. This is due to timing of projects, offset in part by the Rosslare Europort project. The capital underspend has been offset by increased capital spend on fleet and aircraft.

The capital spend has been reorganised. Investment of €6 million in fleet will allow An Garda Síochána to purchase approximately 100 new vehicles of different types and capabilities, including public order vans and high-powered vehicles for units dealing with serious crime. This investment will also allow the Garda to purchase two water cannon to enhance public order tactical capacity for delivery in 2025. There is €8 million for aircraft. As colleagues may be aware, a new replacement helicopter is expected to become operational next year. This funding will support the replacement of a second helicopter in Garda air support units. There will also be an element of capital carryover. The exact value will be determined later in the year.

We have seen three classes of recruits entering Templemore to begin their training as gardaí in the year to date, with another cohort scheduled to start in December. I have prioritised significant new measures to boost recruitment by increasing the training allowance for gardaí to €354 per week. This is almost a doubling of the payments in the past 12 months. Other measures have included increasing the entry age from 35 to 50 and raising the mandatory retirement age to 62. I am also pleased a recent Garda Reserve competition saw significant interest, with 1,800 people applying. Budget 2025 provides for continued growth and ongoing recruitment throughout next year and provides funding for between 800 and 1,000 new trainees to enter the Garda College.

We all recognise that the safety and security we have are built on the work done every day by dedicated gardaí and how their visible presence on our streets makes us feel safe. A key priority is to ensure An Garda Síochána is a leading and modern police service fit for the digital age. This is why I have continually invested in the tools, technology and resources available to the organisation.

A net supplementary estimate of €54 million is required in 2024 in respect of the prisons Vote. I also provided substantial funding of €79 million in budget 2025. The supplementary budget for 2024 comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €56 million, which is offset by a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid of €2 million, giving a net additional requirement of just under €54 million for the prisons Vote. The budget provided by Government to the Irish Prison Service has increased to unprecedented levels, with an allocation of €500 million gross spend in 2024. The additional requirement mainly arises due to the impact of additional prisoner numbers, which currently stand at 5,055, and inflation in the cost of providing services to prisoners.

In total, it is expected there will be an overrun on the payroll subhead of approximately €19 million. This is mainly due to the additional staffing and hours needed to maintain staffing levels, for increased prisoner numbers and for escort requirements to court and hospitals. Some 304 staff have been recruited in the year to date. This includes 200 recruit prison officers and 104 professional and clerical grades. More recruit prison officer classes are due to come on stream before the end of the year. Budget 2025 provides for a further 150 prison staff and funds 130,000 additional hours. Under budget 2025, a €37.5 million additional staffing package was secured for the Irish Prison Service. This will support additional staff recruitment which will positively impact prisoner access to rehabilitation services, training and other services.

One of the larger areas of overspend in the non-pay current expenditure subheads across the Vote relates to Prison Service medical and catering. These costs again are directly linked to inflationary cost pressure and the impact of increased prisoner numbers.

An additional €9 million in capital spend has been allocation to the Prison Service in the current year, following which the total capital spend will be €39.5 million for 2024. This will rise to €53 million next year, with the vast bulk being assigned to estates.

I am very conscious of the need to deal with challenges placed on the prison environment and the Irish Prison Service due to the increased prison population. It is essential we have adequate capacity in our prisons. The capital budget for the Prison Service will increase by over 70% in 2025 as part of the plan to deliver 1,100 extra spaces between now and 2030. This represents one of the fastest ever expansions of prison capacity in Ireland. Works are in progress to deliver 150 of those spaces by the end of this year. To fund these plans, I secured capital funding of €159 million for the years 2024 to 2026.

There is a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid receipts of approximately €2 million. This is mainly accounted for by additional superannuation contributions. This has reduced the net Supplementary Estimate requirement.

I reiterate the Government’s stated intention to establish the Irish Prison Service as a fully-fledged State body with a non-executive board and other best-practice governance and support structures. The approved general scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill proposes to establish the Prison Service and its director general on a statutory basis with defined functions, including providing safe and secure custody, upholding human rights and supporting prisoner rehabilitation. The scheme has been referred to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for the purposes of drafting and has undergone pre-legislative scrutiny by the joint committee. I again thank members for their consideration of the scheme. Their recommendations will of course be fully considered in the course of developing the Bill.

The drafting of the legislation to facilitate Ireland’s ratification of the UN Convention against Torture, optional protocol to the convention, OPCAT, is progressing well. The general scheme of the places of detention Bill was approved by Government. It subsequently underwent pre-legislative scrutiny. Ratification of OPCAT is a priority for us and progressing the Bill to enactment is being actively worked on. I expect the text of the Bill to be finalised by the end of the year.

A net Supplementary Estimate of €3.3 million is required in 2024 in respect of the courts Vote. The Supplementary Estimate is due to the additional costs of the pay subhead of approximately €2 million and pressures in other subheads due to inflationary costs and increased courts sittings, requiring additional funding of €3.8 million.

These costs are offset by underspends in other subheads and a relatively small surplus in courts fee income of approximately €2.5 million. It may also be necessary to carry forward unspent capital. The exact value, if any, will be determined later this year.

As Members will be aware, today I commenced legislation which will provide for the establishment of the Judicial Appointments Commission on 1 January 2025. This marks a significant reform in the way judges are chosen for appointment. It is one of the most significant changes in almost 30 years. The Judicial Appointments Commission Act 2023 establishes a new independent Judicial Appointments Commission to select and recommend persons for all judicial offices in Ireland and in the EU and international courts.

Vote 24 relates to the Department of Justice. A net Supplementary Estimate of €3 million is required in 2024 in respect of the justice Vote. This comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €47 million, which is offset by a projected additional appropriations-in-aid of €44 million, resulting in a net additional requirement of just under €3 million. Of the €47 million, €24 million relates to the Stardust compensation payment to 48 families of the victims. As Members will be aware, the Government approved in July a scheme of ex gratiaredress awards totalling €24 million which has been agreed with the families’ legal representatives. The finalisation of these awards is the conclusion of a series of steps the Government has taken to recognise the State’s failure to provide truth and justice for more than 40 years to the families whose 48 relatives were killed in a fire, which was subsequently found by inquest to be unlawful killing. Arrangements for the disbursement of payments through the families’ legal representatives are being made by my officials and are funded in this Supplementary Estimate to be issued as soon as practicable.

My Department has continued to invest heavily in the processing of international protection applicants and applications. More funding for staff recruitment will add to the significant investment made in the processing of applications. This builds on the work in recent years where I have more than doubled the number of the staff in the International Protection Office. There has been a corresponding tripling of decisions, with 14,000 decisions expected this year. Budget 2025 provides for the hiring of 400 additional staff which will facilitate 25,000 decisions next year.

Other significant additional funding is required to support subhead A14, namely, €5 million for compensation for personal injuries criminally inflicted; €7.5 million in criminal legal aid; €17 million for administration work, including ICT and legal work; and €1.5 million for the Probation Service. There are offsetting underspends in a number of other subheads, with the largest element of the offset relating to the surplus immigration and visa fees of approximately €30 million and EU funds of €14 million. This has arisen due to an increase in registration applications.

I thank the committee for allowing me the time to go through this information. I recommend the Supplementary Estimates to the committee. I am, of course, happy to address and answer any questions colleagues may have.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. We will give consideration to Vote 20 first, which concerns An Garda Síochána. Do Members have any questions?

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for her statement. I have a few questions. I note the offset in the underspends. First, there is not enough spending on the Garda Reserve due to delays in recruitment. Is that likely to happen this year? What are the reasons for the delays?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is due to a recruitment competition. It is a matter of going through the process working with the Public Appointments Service. It is likely it will be next year before we have some of our first new recruits. The competition resulted in 1,800 people applying to become members of the Garda Reserve. We are still going through that recruitment process with the 1,800 applicants.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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No new people have been recruited. Is that what the Minister is saying?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No one has been recruited yet. It was hoped that it would happen by the end of the year, but it will most likely be early next year.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister accept there are fewer than 100 members of the Garda Reserve in Dublin at this stage?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to the Deputy with the exact figure in Dublin. I do not have that currently. We have set a target of having an additional 2,000 members of the Garda Reserve by 2026.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister happy with the pace of recruitment? There is an issue with Garda visibility on the streets of Dublin in particular for a long time now.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am happy that the reserve competition was opened for the first time in approximately seven years. I am satisfied there was significant interest in the competition. Obviously, I want to see our newer members come through as quickly as possible.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister must have misheard me. Is she happy with the pace of recruitment to the Garda Reserve?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The competition is ongoing. While I would have liked to have seen it completed by the end of the year, the process is progressing well. I hope to see new Garda Reserve recruits fully through the system by early next year and out on the beat supporting our gardaí.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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As for the Garda College, one of the other underspends, the underspend is due to a lower number of trainees than anticipated. The Minister stated she wants between 800 and 1,000 new trainees entering Templemore Garda College per year. She will be aware that the number of retirements will peak in three or four years, with some 1,400 retirements in 2028. It is clear there will be a problem, given that the target or ambition is to have between 800 and 1,000 trainees entering Templemore. We all know there is an immediate drop-off, with around 10% of recruits not completing any course. How is the Minister going to make up that shortfall in that particular year alone when 1,400 will retire?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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To answer the initial question about the reason for the underspend this year, we had funded for the higher end of that target. There were 746 trainees last year. Obviously, we do not have the full and final number for this year. While I appreciate we have not reached the higher end of our target, a number of things have been done to ensure we can increase Garda numbers, not just this year but looking at next year and beyond. For example, the age at which people can join has been increased. The retirement age has also been increased. While that will only do so much, we are already seeing fewer people retiring this year. When people stay longer, that is obviously reflected in the overall numbers.

On top of that, we acknowledge we need to look beyond what has already been done between allowances and other elements. Earlier this year, I established a separate committee to look specifically at what more can be done to increase the numbers coming into the Garda College. It will also look at whether there are different ways in which we can provide Garda training for members, acknowledging that people go to college in different ways now. With hybrid training, there may be an option to provide accommodation or training closer to where people live as well. Obviously, if people are joining later in life when they have mortgages and huge commitments, travelling and staying away from home is a major burden. We need to look at all of these issues in the round and acknowledge that we are in a changing environment. We need to be ambitious and do everything that we can.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I will address the age increase shortly. Is the Minister happy with the pace of recruitment into An Garda Síochána given that the population of the State has increased by 20% in the past ten years while the number of gardaí has remained the same? That is already creating big challenges when it comes to visibility, police presence, eliminating the fear of crime people have and giving people peace of mind. Is the Minister happy with the pace in this regard? I know she did not answer the previous question. Is she happy with the pace of recruitment into An Garda Síochána?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes. While I would like it to be higher, I am happy that last year we had six times more people than we had in the previous year. Obviously, we want that to continue.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Six times more.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, six times more compared with the previous year in which we started recruitment post-Covid. We are now essentially back to where we were pre-Covid. We need to go higher. We need to hire 1,000 Gardaí per year to be able to respond to and deal with the challenges we have with retention and retirements. While we do not have the final figures for resignations or retirements this year, they will not be higher than last year’s figures. They may perhaps be lower. Obviously, we will have to wait until the end of the year to see.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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A hybrid model of education for An Garda Síochána and a recruitment and retention task force are the two things being looked at. Is that correct?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The group has not given its first initial report. It is due in the next week.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but those measures are what it is considering.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is looking at all of the options, to be honest.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Those are two of the options it is considering.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Potentially, yes. Nothing is off the table.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister accept that when people are older when they enter Garda training, they are at a different stage of their lives than those at the traditional age of entry into the Garda? If somebody has a partner, children and all of that, it will be harder for them to uproot. Is the only option to open another training college in the Dublin area? Some 800 are going into the organisation where 1,400 have retired in one year. The maths can tell us that we will not keep pace or even maintain the numbers in the organisation.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We need to look at all options. I hope that with the increase in the retirement age, those figures may vary slightly. At the same time, we know what the enormous recruitment in the early 1990s will mean for the coming years. We need to ensure that at the other end, we increase the numbers going into the organisation. The work that has been done to date has got us to this point. To start reaching recruitment of 1,000 new personnel or more, we need to do more. That is why I established the committee. Civilianisation is another key part of making sure that the Garda Reserve is not the only support for our sworn members. The more civilianisation we have, the more front-line gardaí are freed up. Only this week, I completed the civilianisation of our immigration services, meaning that more than 100 gardaí who were behind desks and dealing with immigration queries and services are now working in operational roles. We need to continue to explore more ways to civilianise certain elements of the work of the Garda, as well as ensuring the continuation of investment in technology, including hand-held devices and other equipment, to assist gardaí in doing their jobs.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Minister ask this committee to consider an option for retiring gardaí to remain in the Garda and work in non-core duties, perhaps including desk duties and passport duties? Perhaps they could work part time, 20 hours per week. Did the Minister ask the committee to consider that?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I did not. Gardaí can apply for other jobs if they retire and decide to continue working in other areas. I know that some of them work in different elements of the justice system. If somebody retires-----

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is that off the table?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do not think anything should be off the table but it is not something that has been proposed. It is not something that has been-----

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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It has not been considered.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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-----put forward. That is not to say that the committee I have established is solely focused on recruitment. It is also focused on retention so if what the Deputy has proposed were to come up, it would be considered. It has not yet been put forward as an option.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Have any costings been done on the opening of a second training centre in the Dublin area?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will not have that information until the committee reports to me.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a "No"?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The committee has not reported yet.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned money being put aside for public order vans and high-powered vehicles. Gardaí in west Dublin in particular tell me that not enough gardaí have done the training courses to drive the public order vans and there are backlogs for the driving courses. Has the Minister heard that?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I have not been made aware of that. However, I know that more people have been trained in public order duty overall. I do not have the exact figure but I can get it. There has been a significant increase in the number of members who are trained for public order and that would include the driving of vehicles. I can get a breakdown for the Deputy.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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If new public order vans are being ordered, does the Minister consider it important that the necessary training courses are completed by the members who will be driving those vans?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I absolutely do. The 100 vehicles are not all public order vans. They are a mixture of vehicles for the different fleets. There is funding for training in this year's budget. I expect it to include driver training as well as firearms and any other type of training that is required. There has been a significant increase in the number of gardaí who are trained for public order but I do not have a clear breakdown to show if all of those have also been trained in driver training. I can get that information for the Deputy.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister aware that there is a backlog in respect of members of the Garda who have applied to do the driving courses? They are on a waiting list.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are always waiting lists for different elements of training within the Garda. No issue or concern has been raised with me directly by members or anybody else. There has been a significant uptick in the number of people trained. I can certainly endeavour to provide the Deputy with figures as to how many of those have also completed driver training courses.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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There was an additional €1.5 million of costs associated with the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act. What was the additional unanticipated amount for? There is an additional operational subhead of €1.5 million associated with the implementation of that Act.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I think those are just general costs. I will get a breakdown for the Deputy.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for her input. She said we will facilitate the entry of 800 to 1,000 new trainees to the Garda College next year. How close to maximum capacity for the college is that? Will 800 or 1,000 trainees mean the college is running at full capacity?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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At 1,000 trainees, it would be close to maximum capacity. I know that in years gone by, particularly for the cohort I spoke about from the 1990s, accommodation outside the college was used because the numbers far exceeded capacity. Approximately 1,200 trainees would be close to capacity for the college. We have not reached that level in recent years but I believe that is where we need to get to in order to ensure we can increase and reach our targets.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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No matter what, consideration is going to have to be given to an additional college or a significant boost to the existing facilities.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I believe so, if we want to go beyond 1,000 trainees per year, which we need to. The Covid-19 pandemic set us back. We cannot keep talking about the pandemic but it slowed down the engine that had started to speed up prior to it. If we want to go beyond 1,000 trainees, we need to look at matters in a different way. That was exactly why I established the committee. I did so to see what more we can do in the college and beyond it. The committee is considering how gardaí are trained without in any way impacting the training itself because gardaí come out of the college with high and recognisable qualifications. It is about finding what we can do. To everybody's point, we need to consider people who are starting later in life and who have significant commitments. It is not always easy for them to uproot and move to Templemore for however many weeks and then move to a station for training. We need to look at all of that in the round. When we have full employment and there is a lot of movement within our economy overall, how do we ensure we attract and retain the best people?

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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When somebody applies to become a garda, they know that is going to be expected of them.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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They absolutely do. The current climate is one of full employment. We need to increase numbers beyond the 15,000 target that was set. I agree with the Commissioner that we need up to 18,000. I believe we can get to that number but if we are going to do so, we need to consider new and innovative ways to ensure we can exceed the targets.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Subhead A8 for superannuation cost includes an underspend of €16.5 million. The document states that was the "result of a welcome lower than expected retirements and issues relating to the migration of Garda pension payments to the National Shared Service Office". How much does the National Shared Service Office contribute to savings?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The figure is €2 million.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Pardon?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There is €2 million for that and the remainder is for the other.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Will that €2 million in savings recur in other years from now on?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Under the capital spend, a €6 million fleet has been reorganised. The document states that the investment will allow the Garda to purchase two water cannons. How much are the water cannons costing? Will people be trained to drive them when they have been bought, given the difficulties in getting training places for services?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There will be training. I do not have the figures for how many will need to be trained but there will have to be a number of gardaí available to respond. The overall cost is €1.3 million for the two cannons.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Finally in relation to the €8 million for aircraft, which is funding to support the replacement of a second helicopter in the Garda air support unit, how much does one helicopter cost?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is €8 million for the aircraft.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Is that €8 million for one aircraft?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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For the second helicopter. It is on top of what was already spent last year. Just over €11 million was spent last year, so it is close to €20 million for one.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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For one helicopter.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This would be a quite high technology and high-powered helicopter, perhaps more than would be seen on a normal helicopter. This allows the Garda to have the capacity and capabilities to engage with our partners right across the various different services and supports as well.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Is it capable of being operational nationwide?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It brings us in line with some of our international and European counterparts. It is something that An Garda Síochána has been looking to upgrade for quite some time. It has a life span of about 20 years so it is not something we need to invest in every second year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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That is €1 million per year then.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Depending on the operations it is money well spent as well.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I would not like to be jumping into it when it is 19.5 years old.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Pringle. With regard to the superannuation underspend of €16.5 million I am pleased to hear there has been a lower than expected number of retirements from the Garda. Is this related to the increase in the retirement age? What type of figure are we looking at for the numbers of gardaí who reached 60 and who are now staying on?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It appears to be down to the extension from the age of 60 to 62, which is obviously positive. To the end of September 51 gardaí have secured extended service so it becomes an automated enrolment - people have to opt out if they do not want to stay on. Last year it was 55 for the whole year. To the end of September this year we had 51 so far. I expect we will know a lot more because October tends to be a time where one sees that changeover. We should be able to see the impact then.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am very pleased to hear that 1,800 people applied for the Garda Reserve competition. How many are we recruiting? Under the legislation the Garda Commissioner has complete responsibility for what the Garda Reserve will or will not do, but do we see any role for the political body in trying to make decisions as to how we should direct them? The Garda Reserve was not effectively used by Garda Commissioners in the past.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The target is 2,000 additional reservists by 2026. Next year and the following year is when we will hire the vast majority of those. Prior to the competition opening there was a review of the overall structure of the reserve and its functions, as well as the recommendation to increase the stipend for reservists, which was secured in the budget. That has been set out. While there were some minor changes it is really important that reserves are used and that they are there to support any of the reserve members and the gardaí they work with. They work really well together. Certainly given the more extraordinary events we have where we need significant numbers of gardaí, whether for matches, concerts or protests, it is important to have the Garda Reserve there to support them as well.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. The committee will now consider Vote 21 for the Irish Prison Service. Do any members have any questions for the Minister?

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I believe there is a problem in the Prison Service at the moment. It is bursting at the seams and I think the Minister would accept that. Wherever there is a spare broom closet or office in a prison they seem to be looking at turning it into cells. There are too many of these that are three to a cell. A life was lost recently. Has any money been set aside for revamping or refurbishing the Curragh Camp prison?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The funding secured to date for the 1,100 places does include the Curragh Camp. The final proposal for that is not yet complete. It has not been used in quite a while. It would provide accommodation for about 60 people. We need to make sure if we are investing in a standalone area that requires separate staff that we are getting value for money and that it can be used to its full capacity. That is still under way at the moment but it would be next year before it could be open. This is why we are focusing on the 150 spaces for this year and the other four separate larger projects at Castlerea Prison, Cloverhill, Mountjoy and the Midlands Prison - as well as other additional spaces that have been identified - which will bring it up to the 1,100 number.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What about women's prison accommodation? That is also bursting at the seams.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is and the figures include a certain amount for that. Again, similar to the group that I established this year to look at capacity for Garda training, I have established a separate group looking at the need for additional prison spaces, whether that is a new prison or more than one new prison, and to look at men's spaces as well as what is available to us for women. The Dóchas Centre is a much older prison than the new Limerick wing which opened only in the last year.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Full already.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. We need to do more and we need to increase our numbers overall. I absolutely believe we need a new prison.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a new women's prison?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We need a new prison and potentially more than one if that were to include a new women's prison. The group is due to report to me this month. It will give a clearer indication of what that might look like.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I see there is money apportioned to the Probation Service. Is the Minister putting any extra money into restorative justice programmes?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The probation service has received significant additional funding. The Deputy is right. Just this morning I was speaking to the head of the Probation Service. There is a 57-member panel of prison probation officers. There is also a 53-member panel of probation assistants. That is a new role brought into effect in the last few years to assist our probation officers. This is to try and take the pressure off our Prison Service and to provide, where possible, an alternative to prison for those for whom it is appropriate. With restorative justice there has been a particular focus on looking at other avenues for the Judiciary to use. I believe we need to do more work in that regard, whether it is community service or other types of services, but not specifically on restorative justice.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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There is €6.7 million for legal and compensation. It says there are a number of cases nearing conclusion. Are they the slopping out cases-----

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry will the Deputy repeat that figure?

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Under legal and compensation there is €6.7 million in the additional operations subhead.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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A very small proportion of that is for the slopping out cases. Others are cases brought either by prisoners or by prison officers.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a general section? Are they personal injury type cases or workplace type cases?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There would be a mixture. I will get a breakdown for the Deputy but it would be a mixture.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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The Supplementary Estimate is for €54 million. There is an underspend of €56 million. Every item has gone up in the Irish Prison Service. I am just wondering about the budgetary procedure. It is only 12 months ago that the budget was set out and every item has obviously been wrong since the last Estimates. Every item has gone up, by €56 million, which is a significant amount of money. I wanted to say this also in relation to An Garda Síochána. It is up €66.8 million and then the Department is also up €47 million. How can the budget be so wrong over the year? Does it mean that if this is approved now that everything will be on track next year again?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This year has seen an almost 20% increase in current spend for prisons compared to last year. This year was an acknowledgement that there needed to be a step change and a significant increase for our prisons for the reasons the Deputy has outlined.

Our prison population has increased. The number of people on remand in our prisons in the past ten years alone has increased significantly, which requires not just additional space but a significant increase in prison officers. This year's budget reflects the demand. It is an increase of €54 million. The capital budget has increased by 70%. I have said many times that the budget was a step change, particularly for the prisons. This year's budget recognises and acknowledges that there has been a significant increase in the number of prisoners. There is also a need for an increase in staff. Again, the figure of €150 million on top of the figure of €300 million from last year will assist in that expansion.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I may be completely wrong but I do not think it could be totally unforeseen that there was going to be an increase. Everybody in jail this year would have been going through the court system last year. Obviously, some would have come but the Minister should be able to plan for that. Why did it come as such a surprise? It should have been budgeted for last year rather than having a Supplementary Estimate. I do not believe it is good practice to have Supplementary Estimates. Is the Minister saying that we should not see any Supplementary Estimate next year because of this?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. I do not think we can predict. Every year, I have always tried to get as much money as possible for all of the different Votes. Some years, you get more while other years, you do not. It is hard to predict how many prisoners will be across the entire prison estate but I believe this year represents a step change and an acknowledgement of the fact that our prison numbers have gone up significantly. We want to maintain that budget but continue to increase it - not just the capital side of it but the prison officer side, education and other areas. As the population increases, what suffers first are education and access to rehabilitation so the increase in staff is not just for prison officers but for other areas as well, which is hugely beneficial in trying to deal with that revolving door.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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So the Minister is basically saying that at the time of the Estimates last year, she did not foresee that the prison population was going to increase this year.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. Last year, I strove to get as high a budget as I could for the prison service.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Did the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform say to the Minister it knew it was going to increase but was not going to give her the money and she could plan for a Supplementary Estimate this year?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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What I got last year allowed me to increase staff numbers significantly but there was a significant increase last year in our capital spend. This year was a step change but last year was also a significant increase in the overall capital spend but also for the first time in many years, we have significantly increased the number of prison officers. We have continuous recruitment campaigns that are ongoing, which allows us to recruit the staff. I do not think we can ever predict the number of prisoners we are going to have at any given time but we have a sense. It has been in and around 5,000 for the past number of months. Last year was under 5,000 but still high in the 4,000s.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Surely last year, the Minister would have been able to predict that the number would hit 5,000 this year. The Minister put a figure to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Department of Finance last year, they did not accept it and they gave her an under-budget figure so she knew at the start of last year that she was under budget and would have to have a Supplementary Estimate this year. Will this year's budget meet the requirements for the year?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Again, it is hard to tell. I believe it will meet the vast majority of requirements for this year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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But she would have said that for last year.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It would have been more challenging last year and I think that was clear then but I do believe that the significant increase this year will assist us with regard to where we are this time next year if we are looking for a Supplementary Estimate.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is it easier to deal with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform this year than it was last year?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. He is always very easy to deal with.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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This is a discussion for the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform but I would imagine that the Minister can say that next year, there will be 5,100 prisoners or thereabouts and know what that will cost. The Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform can say it will cost X amount but will only give the Minister 90% of what it will cost so the Minister has to come in for a Supplementary Estimate again next year. That seems to be the budgetary process.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is always hard to predict because numbers do fluctuate. They go up and down and you have costs you do not expect. We have had issues around netting and restrictive measures put in place to prevent drugs getting into prisons. Some of those have been damaged this year, it has cost millions to restore them and that is not money that could have been predicted or planned for so there is always an element of funding that cannot be planned for but for the vast majority of people, there was no clear expectation that the numbers would increase as quickly as they did. I do not have it to hand but certainly the number of people on remand in the past ten years, specifically those related to domestic and sexual violence offences, has increased significantly, which has added a significant amount of pressure be it in Clover Hill or those particular prisons. The numbers have shot up quite significantly in quite a short space of time, which is why the plan is now in place for 1,100 new places separate from any potential new prison, expansion or new female prison on top of that.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister looks at our rising population, it is unsurprising that the prison population has increased quite significantly. I welcome the fact that the capital budget for the Prison Service recognises that we need 1,100 more prison spaces between now and 2030. Where are they going to be built? Where in Dublin will they be built? I know the Minister is talking about a location outside it. Is there space in Mountjoy for those extra spaces?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are four larger projects across four of the current prison estate. Refurbishments are happening in the prison estate. Some of them involve bringing prison space that would not have been in use back into use and identifying other space. This includes the Curragh. It is across a variety of different prison estates.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What type of prisoner does the Minister anticipate will be sent to the Curragh? Is it the same type as was sent there previously?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That has not yet been decided.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Even by way of remand prisoner or convicted prisoner.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The category of offence. That has not been decided.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That has not been decided.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on to consider Vote 22 - Courts Service.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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With all the increased money allocated to prisons, there is a feeling that money going into capital projects in the Courts Service has been restricted. Works need to be carried out in the court house in Mallow. When is the work in Hammond Lane due to commence or be completed or both? All the money seems to be going to Hammond Lane. There is no wheelchair access in the court house in Tralee in this day and age. Are there any plans to put wheelchair access into this court house because we can see that no court house will be constructed or refurbished in Tralee before 2027? In the mean time, does the Minister not think it appropriate to do the works on the roof in Mallow - it appears that there are problems in refurbishing that court house - and make Tralee court house wheelchair-accessible? That people in wheelchairs find that court house inaccessible must be breaching all kinds of regulations, decency and fairness.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Obviously we want all public services and spaces to be accessible to everybody. That does require either upgrading older buildings or in the case of Tralee, developing a new court house. The site has been bought for that project and the intention is for the design and works to begin as soon as possible. There has been significant investment in new court houses across the country in the last tranche of capital spend.

There has been an emphasis in the current NDP on Hammond Lane, given the size and scale of the project. It has received planning approval and is moving on to the next stages. I do not know the exact completion date but, obviously, I want work to start as quickly as possible on the hole in the ground, which has been there for some time.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister expect it to be finished by the end of the decade?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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By next year?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do not think it will be finished by next year, given it has not yet started, but I would certainly like it to have started by next year. It will be a fantastic facility for families, not just in Dublin but throughout the region, and there has been significant investment in a number of new courthouses throughout the country. As we continue to develop our infrastructure and look to the opening of the next NDP, I hope that will allow us to progress a number of other new projects that are in the pipeline and are getting to the stage where larger funds are required for the building to start. I think Tralee will be part of that.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Tralee courthouse site has been purchased from the county council. Does the Minister have a view on the fact no progress will be made this year or next year or probably even in the year thereafter? The site was given to the Courts Service for a song, in effect, yet no progress has been made on it.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I cannot say progress will not be made in the next year, although I do not believe it will be made between now and the end of this year in terms of the planning. Nevertheless, we need to get it to the stage where the design will be progressed and where planning can be applied for. The site was bought only this year, so we have to go through the stages and progress it as quickly as we can. The decision was taken locally, in consultation with the Courts Service, as to where that site will be, which in itself probably took longer than it might take for another site. The site has been bought, which is the most important aspect, and the next stage is to make sure we have a design and can apply for planning.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Minister put pressure on the Courts Service to make the courthouse wheelchair accessible, seeing as nothing is going to be built there for at least three years? Should that not be addressed?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I can certainly speak to the Courts Service about that.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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My final questions relate to the Coroner Service but we can come to that later.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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There was one question about the Prison Service I forgot to ask. It relates to the drafting of legislation to facilitate Ireland's ratification of the UN Convention Against Torture and the optional protocol. I understand that the convention was passed by the UN in 1987, yet the Government is only now preparing legislation to pass the optional protocol. Is that correct?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I expect the Bill to be finalised by the end of the year and then, depending on where we are and what is going on, it can be progressed in the Houses next year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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That will be almost 30 years after it was published.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. That is why I am keen that we get to that point and why I want it to have been published by the end of this year. It should have been done before now - I think we all accept that - but the Bill has been progressed, and if it can be published by the end of this year, that will give us a chance to make sure it is done next year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Are there other UN conventions and so on that have been sitting within the Department for years without having been adopted or ratified?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I cannot think of anything off the top of my head. There are often reasons certain matters are not progressed or ratified, but if we give a commitment to ratifying something, we tend to do so, and the objective is always to do it as quickly as possible, whether it is the Istanbul Convention or any other convention. It often takes longer because there can be different strands that include other Departments or relate to other requirements or laws. In this case, however, I accept, as I think we all do, that it has taken far too long. I hope that if the Bill can be published and finalised by the end of this year, we will be able to progress it next year.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The final Vote we will consider is Vote 24, governing the Department of Justice.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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There was supposed to be some progress on a Bill relating to the Coroner Service. County councillors throughout the country have expressed dissatisfaction that their councils' budgets are taken up by the Coroner Service and there was an indication that that would be changed. Is that going to happen any time soon?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I have just this week brought the review of the Coroner Service to Cabinet. I have not yet published it but I intend to do so probably early next week, so I will be able to outline that then.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The legislation, therefore, is not going to happen. Is that correct?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No, it will, but the report and the review have to be published first. That will allow for the legislation to progress.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Will the payment for the Coroner Service through the county councils have to cease?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Again, I can speak to the Deputy about that once the report has been published.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is going to give that information to the Cabinet first and tell us after that. Is that the case?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It has been approved by Cabinet but it has not been officially published. I cannot speak to the report until it has been published.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is that direction of travel inevitable?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is important that we have a uniform system and that people have clarity as to the structure and oversight of the payment. The report, as I said, was brought to Cabinet only in the past two days. It sets this out clearly and creates a pathway for legislation that is required, among other things. I asked that the report and the review would look at not just the structures but also how we engage with families, communicate with people and make what is a very difficult time for people a little easier. A number of elements are addressed in the overall review.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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On the pace of prosecutions getting through the courts, it has been suggested previously that the Circuit Court could sit earlier and perhaps hold trials in September. In England, the riots during August were dealt with relatively quickly, or at least much more quickly than they would be in Ireland. Is the Minister happy with the pace of prosecutions in general here compared with that in other jurisdictions?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It can be improved and is being improved. To try to ensure we have the capacity, 30 additional judges have been appointed in the past two years through the judicial planning working group. One of the requirements for the additional judges was that there would be reform and changes to have them sit at times when they were not sitting, and that is already happening in some of the courts. I have a breakdown on this and can get it for the Deputy. There has been an increase in the number of certain sittings and certain types of cases being heard. I intend to get approval for a second tranche of the judicial planning working group shortly, which will add a further 20 judges, on top of the 30.

One of the main issues in the UK in the context of the riots over recent months was the access to evidence, in particular of the body cameras the police were wearing. That allowed for a much greater level of early guilty pleas. While body cameras have started to be rolled out here and members of the Garda in Waterford, Limerick and Dublin city centre have them, I want to be sure that all gardaí have them. In the case of the first such prosecutions that have occurred in Ireland, perhaps those prosecutions would not have been secured without them. One of the first ones concerned a person who had verbally abused a member of An Garda Síochána for 15 or 20 minutes. Without that evidence, it would have been difficult for a judge to make a clear decision about what had happened, but that person received a sentence of three months. Where there is such evidence, that makes a huge difference, and that was one of the biggest differences in the UK cases.

Again, the investment in the courts through the budget this year is a recognition it is not just judges who need funding but also their staff, and we are making sure there is capacity within the courts to allow for those additional sittings, not just in Dublin but throughout the country.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure about the case the Minister is talking about, but the garda could have always given evidence, as could his or her colleagues, and the judge could have made up his or her own mind as to whether to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant if it were a contested case.

The judge could make up their own mind as to whether to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant then if it was a contested case. Would it be the view of the Minister that Circuit Courts, for example, should be sitting in mid or late September for trials?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I think we can look at ways in which all the courts could potentially sit longer, while acknowledging that, obviously, there has been a structure there for some time. We need our courts to be as productive as possible while allowing our Judiciary and legal professions to have the time they need. Particular courts operate in different ways. Some will require time for writing up judgments, but others will not. This is where I believe there could be more sitting times. It could also be ensured that the presidents of all the courts have the ability to direct where that has not been the case in the past. Quite a number of recommendations and changes are happening already but more are required to make sure the changes in this regard can be managed and we will be able to see progress in respect of 30 additional judges, as well as 20 more-----

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister be putting pressure on the Circuit Courts to open in September?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are already increased numbers of sittings across all the courts, including in the Circuit Court. Regarding any changes to how they currently operate, as I said, we will need to keep all options open and look at all the ways in which our courts can operate most effectively.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the Minister's view, though, that they should be opening in September?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I believe, where possible, our courts should be sitting as much as possible, but at the same time-----

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Including in September.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Where possible, yes. Again, the recommendations from the Brigid McManus judicial planning working group look at where all our courts could potentially sit longer, where they can sit on days when they are not sitting and at how we can assist them through technology to be as effective as possible. I refer as well, though, to support through an increase in staff, not only in the numbers of judges but also the support staff needed.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Pringle.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Regarding the Legal Aid Board, there is underspending of €5 million. It is stated this relates to recruitment shortfalls and delays in fit-out and refurbishment projects. How much of this €5 million relates to recruitment shortfalls? Turning to access to justice for people who cannot afford it, what impact will this situation have for them?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The majority of the amount is staff-related. It is about getting staff throughout the year. Of the €5 million, then, I think that aspect accounts for at least €4 million.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Therefore 80% of the underspending concerns a lack of staff.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is staff-related. In a full employment environment, there are challenges right across all sectors in hiring staff.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Yes, but these would be very specific staff and not general staff. I presume they would be solicitors and people with legal qualifications.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Does the Minister perceive that this issue will be ongoing? What can be done to improve it? It impacts directly on people who cannot afford the legal system and their access to it. What can the Minister do in this regard?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We have a review concluding now. It is looking at legal aid, our overall structures and the types of people who can access legal aid, as well as other elements in this regard. This will probably propose several recommendations or changes. In recent years, however, I have tried to assist where there have been blockages in certain categories or at certain levels, be these in relation to pay or otherwise, and to provide an increase where necessary or provide assistance in the form of funding that will allow for the removal of blockages in this regard in certain recruitment areas or in certain levels of recruitment. We are, though, in an environment of full employment and this is reflected across many different elements of the justice system, including, obviously, legal professionals.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Should having full employment, however, impact people having access to justice? Should the Department not be stepping up to ensure this does not impact on people's access to justice and their rights? There is a budget line for the Legal Aid Board for next year. Does the Minister expect this level of spending will be met at this stage?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We obviously have to work within certain pay levels. Where there have been challenges with recruitment, I have tried to increase pay levels. We are, though, competing with the private market and this in itself can create a challenge. Certainly, however, every effort is being made to support the Legal Aid Board and to work with it to recruit as many staff as possible. On the Deputy's point, it is a crucially important service and the funding for it has increased year on year. The number of people we have been able to help has also increased year on year, but, of course, we want to be able to do more. There has been an increase of €5 million, then, for next year. I expect and would like to see that funding spent and no underspending in this area.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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The increase of €5 million for next year means it is effectively €10 million of an increase overall because of €5 million being returned this year.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Well, it is a €5 million increase on the base funding. If it was possible for the board to spend the €5 million on top of the €5 million not spent this year, then that would be a change of €10 million. It is, though, only an increase of €5 million on the base amount from last year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Is the base the Estimate before today or after today? Is it €10 million in effect? As of today, will it be €10 million extra?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is €64 million. The base we are talking about now is €59 million. It went down to €54 million because there was the underspending of €5 million. Next year, the base will be €64 million, so it will be a difference of-----

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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In effect, then, it is an increase of €10 million?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Well, it is an increase of €5 million, but if the board was to spend all €64 million next year, then it would be €10 million more than it spent this year, so yes.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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All right. In 12 months' time, is it likely we will be sitting here talking about another €7 million coming back?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I hope not.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Will the procedures be put in place to ensure it will not be down to inertia that this would happen?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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To show the Deputy this is certainly not the case any year, every effort is made, whether we are talking about the Legal Aid Board or any other element of the justice system, to ensure money allocated is spent. Nobody likes giving money back or not being able to spend it. When it comes to staffing, however, this can be a challenge across many different agencies or sectors. Certainly, however, every effort will be made to ensure the money is spent.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I thank the Minister.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the International Protection Office on Mount Street, I welcome the fact, as the Minister has told us previously, that applications can now be made in Citywest. As the Minister will be aware, though, there has been a significant increase in the numbers of people applying. Yet all of them, aside from those people who go to Citywest, must apply in Mount Street. If we look at the situation in other European countries, we can see they decentralise their application process and there is more than one place for people to apply. Why do we persist with the trend that all applicants aside from those in Citywest must apply in Mount Street? I ask this because I am sure the Minister is aware of the pressure this puts on that office.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We have two places now. About 48% of people are going to Citywest, which is a significant proportion. It is families with children in particular going there. We have, therefore, two significant bases. Dublin is our capital city and perhaps easier to access for people than other parts of the country. As well as opening up the office in Citywest, however, we are also providing for interview hubs. These allow for additional space. We have also piloted several online interviews to be able to facilitate people who at different stages of the process do not have to come to Mount Street or anywhere else. This is going really well and we want to try to expand this approach.

Mount Street has had significant investment not just in the number of staff but also in the technology and the building itself in recent years. I believe we need to keep that up and we should not move away from it. Of course, over time, we should always be looking at other potential options and this is why the Citywest office was opened. There is also the matter of looking at technology and the hubs and if there is a need to open somewhere else. Obviously, we want to do everything we can to see the numbers of applications reduced. Certainly, the processing at Mount Street and Citywest, and the accelerated processing in particular, has seen a drop occur in the numbers of people coming from the countries concerned. The more we can speed up, the more we would like to see this impact the overall numbers.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is demonstrably the case that the Mount Street office needs further assistance in terms of dealing with the numbers of applications being made to it. I thank the Minister very much for coming before the committee. Would the Minister like to come back in on anything?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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On the question Deputy Daly asked with regard to the €1.5 million, this is supporting the implementation of the recommendations and findings of the high-level review group on the role of An Garda Síochána in the public prosecutions system. That is it specifically but I can have that sent to the Deputy.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for attending late on a Thursday evening. That concludes the committee's consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for Votes 20, 21, 22 and 24. The Minister and her officials are free to go. We have a very short private meeting to attend to.