Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 15 October 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Skills
Education Needs of Visually Impaired Students: Discussion
11:00 am
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Session 1 will be a round-table discussion on the education needs of visually impaired students in primary and post-primary education. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Eithne Walsh, who is the head of communication and advocacy in Féach; Dr. Patricia McCarthy, who is an associate research fellow in Trinity College Dublin; Ms Derval Healy, who is director of children and learning with ChildVision; Ms Toni O'Dwyer, who is the national children and young person's services manager with Vision Ireland; and Ms Rafiat Agbona, who is a law and criminology student at Maynooth University. The witnesses are here to discuss the education needs of visually impaired students in primary and post-primary education. I will ask each witness to make a brief opening statement lasting five minutes in the following order: Ms Eithne Walsh, Dr. Patricia McCarthy, Ms Derval Healy, Ms Toni O'Dwyer and Ms Rafiat Agbona. The statements will be followed by questions from the committee members. I invite Ms Walsh to begin.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Good morning. I am here representing Féach, which is a charity that supports parents of blind and visually impaired students. We have been around for about 35 years and we work a lot in the education space. I am also the mother of two blind children who are in college. We are here today to talk about the issues facing blind and visually impaired students in education. What I am keen to point out from the very start is that, while there are issues, there are supports in the education system that could really alleviate these issues. Ireland fares quite well with some of the supports it gives our students. We give our students very good technology; they have access to a typing grant, to summer provision and to special education teachers. Despite these supports, however - and the reason we are here is all because of the however - how a student does is often very hit and miss. It can depend on whether a teacher will go the extra mile; whether the school is able to reach out to these support services; whether the school can find someone to give a typing grant, or whether someone can do summer provision. What we are finding more and more is how well a student does depends on how well their parent can advocate for them. This does not need to be the case.
I will go through the three things Féach thinks are the big barriers at the moment. First, although students are getting really good technology, if you give a student technology but do not give the schools the supports they need to ensure the student can access the curriculum independently, it is a waste of that technology. It leads to poorer outcomes for the students and above all it leaves them very dependent on their SNAs. I can totally understand how this has happened. This technology has burst on to the scene in the last 15 years. It has totally changed how we operate. However, no system has been put in place to ensure the students have the skills to access the curriculum independently or the teachers the skills to support them.
Second, orientation and mobility are not really embedded in the curriculum in school. If we look at Europe, the UK and America, we see that orientation, mobility and independence specialists visit the children at home and in school throughout their education.
They upskill them so that they are constantly independent and able to be fully integrated within education. What happens in Ireland? In Ireland, this happens in three counties in Munster because we set up a pilot project 20 years ago. That runs alongside the orientation and mobility offering made by Vision Ireland and those two work really well for those three counties. However, let us take away the offering in Munster and see what the rest of the country has. It has the offering from Vision Ireland. Vision Ireland's case workers have more than 200 people on their list and their remit is wider than orientation and mobility. If we look at the UK, it has an orientation and mobility specialist who only deals with that and who has 45 to 75 people maximum. Therefore, the students in the rest of the country are not getting the service they need to be independent and integrated into school.
Third, summer provision is a really innovative system that I do not think is available anywhere else in Europe. We might imagine that people have 40 hours to catch up on all these additional skills, such as cane training, braille and technology, during the summer months. The issue is that schools cannot get teachers to teach them, and if they do find teachers, they do not have the skills they need to teach the students. It is an absolutely great programme, but our kids cannot utilise it.
Therefore, what are we looking for? We are looking for three things, the first of which is technology. We have to put a system in place whereby the teachers are able to support the students to learn independently. This is going to involve some bespoke interventions by the service providers at key times in their education because every child with a visual impairment learns differently. However, everything must be available to put this into action. Second, the orientation and mobility programme that is available in Munster and paid for by the Department of Education has to be made available in the rest of the country. Then, everybody will have a fair chance of integration and being completely independent. Third, we have to let the service providers that have the specific skills to support the students provide the summer provision in line with the way the schools are doing it, as the schools cannot do it. If we take this team approach to our kids and use the service providers to fill the deficit of skills and knowledge in the education system, we will actually ensure that these school supports hit their targets and, most of all, we will ensure that the Government gets value for money for its technology. We will ensure that the students are not dependent on their special needs assistants, SNAs. More than anything, however, I think what we all want is that the students reach their potential.
Before I wrap up, because I am sure I am nearly running out of time, I ask that as members go into the next committee meeting, they hold all these testimonies in place because they going to hear about how €2 billion has been spent on special education. None of that matters if the supports cannot be utilised by these groups of people. I ask members to keep their eyes on that. I am not someone who is misinformed. I am telling members of the lived experience of people out there. I thank the committee very much for giving us this opportunity.
Dr. Patricia McCarthy:
I thank the committee very much for this opportunity. I am going to speak very briefly about the education experiences and transition opportunities of blind and vision-impaired people from my own research. I will start with access to the curriculum. We all recognise that education has a positive impact on employment opportunities and yet this cohort of the population is often under-represented within higher education in particular. The head figures indicate that, and those figures continue to show that we are under-represented in that area.
With regard to primary and post-primary education and access to the curriculum, the greatest challenges evident in my research were with regard to the mathematics curriculum. We can all understand why because it is a very visual subject. Other issues included the teaching and learning methodologies used, and access to appropriate formats with regard to how to access the curriculum. All of those posed significant challenges. My concern is that mathematics is often a primary subject when it comes to transition opportunities and if students are falling behind in those areas, they not going to achieve their potential. Other areas in which challenges arose were with regard to the Irish curriculum. Many who participated in my research had exemptions from Irish and while that may be a necessity for some, it should not be the default position for all with vision impairment.
In relation to access to the curriculum and those transition opportunities, we need to ensure that they have the full range of the curriculum available to them with the necessary supports.
In relation to access to technology, while access to technology has increased significantly, as Ms Walsh said, being able to engage with the technology right throughout their education experience rather than just it coming at phases is really important because, increasingly, as you go through education, you become even more reliant on technology as a vision impaired or blind person. That includes being able to access materials through the medium of Braille, if that is the preferred option.
In relation to other services, many of them who participated in my research recognised that they had access to supports but often those supports were only put in place as a reactive opportunity when something had gone wrong. We need to recognise that access to supports needs to be on a continuum. That is really where it is important that they have access to a quality core expanded curriculum, as Ms Walsh said, around things like mobility, orientation and general life skills to enable them to reach their potential, not only when they are in education but when they leave the education system and go out into the community on a wider level, because we have very capable young people who are blind and vision impaired going through the system and yet not achieving to their full potential.
What we are trying to say here today is that we need to see this. While they are a low-incidence disability grouping, we need to ensure that there are quality supports available to them across the life-cycle of education so that they are not falling through the cracks, as they currently appear to be doing. As I said, exemptions are necessities at times but should not be. Often what happens is it is seen as too challenging for the individual when actually the system has not been designed to work for those who are blind and vision impaired.
Another area that was obvious in my research related to career guidance. While there was very good career guidance in some instances, often it happened that the person providing the advice was not equipped to give the necessary support that they required and often discouraged them from doing particular courses. We need to consider how best we can ensure that this cohort have the best opportunity within our education system.
Ms Derval Healy:
I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the committee today. I am director of reading and learning at ChildVision. ChildVision is Ireland's recognised national provider of vision specialist services committed to continuing our mission of improving the lives of children and young people with visual impairments across Ireland. Through our national remit, ChildVision's aim is to offer specific vision training and comprehensive supports to education and therapy providers across the country. We plan to extensively engage with all stakeholders to raise awareness of our new national remit.
Under that remit, we are also developing a low vision team with a "vision first" approach, focusing on the specific needs of each child. This team focus will include vision training for professionals involved with students under children's disability network teams and primary care. While this is a welcome addition to the HSE services, it will not resolve the gaps of specialist provision within the education setting. ChildVision would welcome the opportunity to engage with the Department and relevant stakeholders to support the delivery of the expanded core curriculum for children with visual impairments. The three areas identified by Féach are areas where ChildVision currently has expertise but in order to reach all students with visual impairment, we would require expansion of service and a collaborative approach with other service providers.
In relation to orientation and mobility, ChildVision is aware of the importance of early intervention programmes for O and M and its particular importance for transitions, that is, for children transitioning from preschool to school, primary school to secondary school, etc. ChildVision currently offers O and M provision within our campuses in Dublin and Cork.
As Ms Walsh mentioned, there are huge gaps in orientation and mobility provision on a national basis. Therefore, investment in training programmes is essential. ChildVision would welcome the opportunity to develop a specific working group with the Department of Education and relevant stakeholders to ensure orientation and mobility is at the forefront of the curriculum for visually impaired students.
As assistive technology continues to advance, more students can benefit from digital formats and tools that aid their learning. In response, ChildVision actively promotes and supports the use of assistive technology in the classroom through the provision of specialised digital schoolbooks. While these supports provide assistance for access to schoolbooks, there are still huge gaps in terms of training of professionals within the day-to-day classroom setting. As Ms Walsh mentioned, investment in assistive technology devices will also always require additional investment in those who support the students one to one.
Greater access for students with disabilities to summer provision is welcomed by all, but we need to ensure this provision is targeted around vision supports. The opportunity to provide additional orientation and mobility, assistive technology and daily living skills would be welcomed by all to ensure additional upskilling during the summer months. ChildVision would welcome a collaborative approach with other service providers in terms of specialised summer provision to ensure all students have access nationally.
Reading Services, a department within ChildVision, is a national initiative dedicated to empowering literacy for students with visual impairments. Through the provision of schoolbooks in alternative formats, including Braille, large print, digital and tactile diagrams, we ensure that visually impaired students can access the full educational curriculum through the same textbooks as their peers. Additionally, we support their learning journey by offering leisure reading materials through our library.
Since its launch in 2000, our service has grown steadily and has adapted to the evolving needs of students, the expanding school curriculum and the rapid advancement of technology. We work closely with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to produce customised educational materials that meet the unique needs of each student. In recent years, we have seen a steady increase in demand for our services. In 2013, we provided books for 357 students. We saw an increase of 33% on that figure in 2024. Moreover, the number of books provided per student has more than doubled in the same period. In 2013, we fulfilled an average of eight titles per student, whereas in 2024, we are fulfilling an average of 18 books per student. This increase is due to several factors, including the removal of book request limits, the introduction of new supplementary materials and the ever-expanding educational core curriculum. In addition to our work with assistive technology, we have developed a 3D printing hub, an innovative area of our service that allows us to create tactile educational tools. For example, students can now request printed objects such as Braille clocks, maths kits and fraction walls to assist their learning.
As we look to the future, the demand for our services is expected to continue growing. Census data indicates a rising number of children in Ireland with visual impairments, which will undoubtedly lead to more referrals and an increased demand for accessible materials alongside vision supports such as orientation and mobility and assistive technology. To succeed in achieving our goals, collaboration with Féach and other stakeholders is essential and a vital component of ChildVision’s strategic plan. I thank the committee members for their time and attention.
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
I thank the committee members for opportunity to speak with them today.
Vision Ireland works with approximately 20,000 people across the entire age spectrum and continuum of vision loss. As the only organisation that works across the whole life cycle, we are in a unique position to witness the experience of students as they transition to tertiary education and employment. The aim of our children specialist support service is to improve outcomes of people who are blind or vision impaired, where the low rates of participation in further and higher education and employment continue to be of concern. Of equal concern are the difficult experiences frequently recounted to us from students who have transitioned. The lack of focus on the longer-term educational and employment outcomes contradicts the present metrics used to measure success, which are leaving certificate results and entry to college statistics.
I concur with all of the issues outlined by my colleagues here today and wish to make some points in terms of context. Blindness and vision impairment as a primary disability in children is a low-incidence but high-impact disability, where students frequently require an intensive and supplementary vision-specific curriculum. A low-incidence disability can mean isolation, frequently being the only student in the school with this disability. It also means that the level of expertise and knowledge required to support that is scarce or very limited.
The term "vision impairment" includes a range of reduction in visual function, from blindness to low vision. It affects a diverse population within which there is a wide spectrum of need. We do not expect everyone to have the knowledge required to give support. What we do request is that the expertise that is there is co-ordinated within the educational structure to ensure that the individuals' needs are met.
For students who require alternative formats or access, supports need to be provided on a continuum, from high support as they gain the knowledge of alternative media to a stepped-back approach where they gain the skills of independent access and thereby gain control of their own learning. Independent learning is dependent on the availability of assistive technology. It is also dependent on the development of a skill set to manage materials with greatest possible ease and efficiency. Lack of independent access to materials creates an unnecessary dependency on others to be able to engage in education.
The approach to sense supports for students with higher incidence or higher prevalence rates disabilities does not transfer to students whose primary disability is vision impairment. Their requirements relate to access to learning as well as learning compensatory skills as opposed to behavioural support or care needs. We have many examples of students with visual impairments whose experience in education was positive, supportive and inclusive; and we also know that the dedication of in-class, resource and visiting teachers, SNA and parents has facilitated this positive experience. However, we also have evidence of students who have had very difficult experiences. Some students transition without the prerequisite skills and knowledge to transition.Consequently, their trajectory into employment is significantly longer than their peers.
Specialist support includes access to the standard academic curriculum but also to a range of independence skills, starting from early years and continuing throughout students' education. The intensity of support needed in these areas requires a greater level of resources than is presently available.
The need for timely transition planning is universally accepted within education. In response to the difficulties articulated by students, Vision Ireland is delivering a transition programme in transition year to address the skills gap. The programme provides an individualised transitional support package for students before they move to the senior cycle. The programme is now in its fourth year and is an example of how intensive and individualised transition support can be delivered with impact. Our recommendation is to scale these transitional supports for students with visual impairments in co-operation with the educational support sector.
One of the more positive developments in recent years has been the inclusion of students with visual impairments in the summer provision scheme. This provides the opportunity to spread the additional burden of required learning across the full year, thereby allowing critical learning opportunities for students to develop the additional skills necessary, including, for example, Braille literacy, independent travel and digital skills. However, due to the way in which the scheme is structured, most students do not benefit optimally from it. I thank committee members for listening.
Ms Rafiat Agbona:
I am a 23-year-old student and am currently pursuing a master's degree in Maynooth University, where I also pursued my undergraduate degree. I am here today to share my personal experience of the transition from secondary school to university as a blind student. Unlike other students in my position, I was not born blind. I went blind when I was 12 years old, the summer before I entered secondary school. I was under the impression that my secondary school would be prepared for my arrival as there were other students with disabilities attending the school. Unintentionally, that became more of an issue for me later.
I was assigned an SNA, who was going to be sight-guiding me and reading and writing for me. I did not know how much of a hindrance that would be for my future. The SNA was with me at all times and had to sit next to me. I did not realise that it would impact me socially. Other students were able to socialise and get to know people, whereas I was stuck to an SNA 24-7. The situation got worse when I had to go to a separate centre in my school where the students with disabilities usually assembled and remain there for lunchtime. I should not have been there for lunch.
I should have been in the main school where I was educated. The other students with disabilities had to be there because of certain intellectual disabilities. After much pleading, the school eventually let me go back to the main school to eat lunch, but this still did not help as my SNA had to have eyes on me 24-7. This allowed me to make one friend over the span of three years. As time went on I argued my case and so did my mother and I was able to gain a little bit of independence over time. I learned to use my white cane and I learned Braille, which took up a lot of my spare time and placed a lot of stress on me in addition to everything else I was doing, like every other student. Over time I had to also argue for different things like going to the shops at lunchtime like every other student or even staying after school to do choir, which I loved. In third year I wanted to do transition year, which I was strongly advised not to. I was told it would be really difficult for me and I would not be able to join in all the activities. Looking back, I realise the school did not want me to participate because it saw me taking day trips or participating in any other non classroom-based activity as a burden.
All these things I missed out on in transition year would have made life a lot easier for me. I would have been able to learn to be independently mobile in different environments, had more time to socialise and build on my social skills and been able to have spare time to do things such as learn Braille, which I do not know very well now. All this was really difficult for me as I entered college. I used the laptop during the six years, but I was strictly permitted to just type my notes and save them and that was it, so when I got to college it was still really difficult for me to do things like email lecturers. Everything took me a lot longer to learn. Education is already difficult for college students starting normally. Everything took me a lot longer and it was a lot more stressful on me. Even though I am doing a master's I had to take a year off and I fell behind during my undergraduate, which is unfortunate, but everything I have achieved to date was because of my frustrations and everything I wanted to further.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank everyone for the presentations, which are much appreciated. Deputy Hourigan will be the first member to speak.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Chair and thank our witnesses. It is very obvious they have all had a conversation and it is brilliant to see a cohesive message coming from a particular community. It is incredibly important. To Ms Agbona I have to say I am always very sorry when somebody has to come to a committee and recount their difficulties because we should have a system that does not require people to come in and explain their difficulties. I am sorry she has to do that and that other people have to do it, but she is an amazing example. I am sure there are lots of children around the country who are hearing about her master's and are very enthused by that, so well done.
I will start with some quick questions about how often the Department of Education engages. How often do ChildVision, Vision Ireland and Féach have access to the Department? When do officials sit down with the witnesses' organisations? It is okay to say the Department does not or that it has not since last year, or whatever.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When Ms Walsh says "highlighting an issue" it implies that she, as an advocate, is reaching out to the Minister.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is not a policy working group.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Obviously, there was a great deal in the various presentations. We could probably spend many hours dealing with the different parts of this discussion. It is possible that we all have many questions about the digital aspect because it is a new era. In many different sectors across the country there is a focus on digital and ICT, on whether we are funding them in the correct way and on whether the various programmes work.
One of the questions I am always interested in is whether all the composite parts of the school experience join up. Ms Agbona or Ms Walsh, who said her children are now in college, might speak to that. As the Department of Education supports and enables more people to use digital technology, are the composite parts, including, for example, the State Examinations Commission, moving in lockstep and changing as they need to? I would be horrified if somebody in their day-to-day life was using brand-spanking-new technology that has changed their experience and has made their life easier to reach a point where they want to go to third level and are definitely able for it and where the barrier to that is a State examination. That is just an example of the composite parts. I do not know who wants to take that question, but I presume everyone has an opinion.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
I would like to start on that because it is very close to my heart. First, it is very ad hoc. That is one of the things we are bringing to this meeting. There is a digital strategy in schools but it does not connect at all with our children. It seems to be managed by giving them education - the teachers are told to upskill and then it is left at that. How well a student does, as I outlined earlier, is dependent on intervention.
The Deputy's other point is so pertinent because you can have a student going through school who accesses everything digitally, which is what most of us aim for, because that gives you the true independence. When it comes to State examinations, up until two years ago, you could not even get a digital paper. You could be getting multiples or your paper could be 40 pages long. That has changed, but the change has been very slow. We engage with the State Examinations Commission the whole time. Our experience is that we have been waiting for a meeting since last January on-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that January of this year?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That involves a court case, is that right?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Initially, I had to take plenary action in order to ensure that my son got his papers digitally. He could not sit the leaving certificate without that. The commission provided the papers digitally, only to non-modified papers, so the next year a colleague had to take another case to ensure that students who got digital or modified papers, received those modified papers and the ordinary papers digitally. I do not want to be telling tales out of school but that is the relationship that goes on. The only thing we have had-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Ten months later, Ms Walsh has not received that correspondence.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My overarching concern is that we build expectations whereby part of the system cannot be validated. For a child to go from early intervention, which is 12 months in some cases, up to the age of 25 or 26 or, God knows, if you do your PhD, into your 30s, it is assumed that all parts of the system would work together.
Ms Derval Healy:
As part of the reading services department within ChildVision, there is an important piece on the offering of choice. While digital material plays a part within accessible formats, there are basic literacy skills that can be used not only through digital but also with assistive technology. For us, it is the importance of offering multiple alternative formats and access to different materials through those for the student or teacher or parents. That importance of choice across the board is really important. For mathematical subjects and geography, for example, it can sometimes be easier for a braille user as a student to study that through braille while studying other subjects through digital, so it is really-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are we building in choice for the benefit of the student or the view that the system might fail them at a later date?
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
Our failure to achieve independent learning is one of the key pieces. Ms Agbona's experience would speak to that. We have students who are highly supported and overprotected are emerging without the skills. They have the ability to learn independently but we are not giving them the skills they require them they transition into tertiary education. They need to be independent learners and to manage and have agency around their own learning. We are not doing that. To comment on the point about joining the dots, summer provision is a perfect example of where we could provide training and skills around that. However, unless that is embedded into a student support plan and planned in advance, it will never work. In theory we have access to summer provision but it has absolutely no value unless we join the dots there and make that very effective initiative work for students
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To clarify, Ms O'Dwyer would see summer provision as an opportunity for VI students. Most VI students are in mainstream education and, as described, are received supports from teachers and SNAs who are probably learning with the child what that child needs as with all disabilities but VI is very specific. Most SNAs will have only one child with VI throughout their career. If we can move it to service providers, Ms O'Dwyer sees summer provision as an opportunity for service providers to go in every year and give very specialised supports around making the student more self-reliant?
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
Absolutely. The structure is there but we need to look at how to make the structure work for this low incidence disability. At the moment the way it operates is last-minute. It is not planned for. The expertise needed for vision impairment is not readily available in terms of Braille or orientation and mobility. That sort of expertise is not readily available to recruit overnight. From January we need to highlight summer provision for all children who need it. If it is highlighted for January, we can start planning to bring in that expertise to support students on an individualised basis. That to me is the only way it will work. Trying to do that at the beginning of June when parents are not even aware of summer provision or what benefit it can be is too little, too late.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Summer provision has become last minute as we do not know who wants to offer it or which employees want to take up the opportunity. Ms Healy indicated that ChildVision would be willing to undertake that kind of work.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the capacity there?
Ms Derval Healy:
The capacity is there and we are also building our Vision First team. As Ms O’Dwyer mentioned, it has to be very vision first in terms of the skill sets available, whether O and M, daily living skills or assistive technology. We are currently building our team around our national remit. However, it is definitely a conversation that needs to happen and, as Ms O’Dwyer mentioned, it needs to happen at the beginning of the year to ensure there are services in place. Collaboration between service providers is key.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
The interesting thing about education is it has a process in place for this. A kid gets a school support plan. Instead of that being three terms, a fourth term should be inserted in and looked at in the holistic sense of the whole year. The system and the skills are there; it is about trying to get them together.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Regarding the pilot in Munster around orientation and mobility, why has that not been expanded? How long has it been in place?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sure everybody else in the country is quite jealous of that. Why has that not been expanded? Does Ms Walsh have any insight into that? I know Féach is not the Department but I am just wondering.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
I do not. I have been liaising with the Department around that and there is no definite reason. It just happened. This can happen in education; it can be very disjointed. The Department is aware the offering is not good enough and needs to be expanded. It is staying there. It has not moved from there.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Am I correct in saying that when we talk about orientation and mobility, particularly for VI students who are not in the community, there is a belief that that is about learning to use a cane and walk around the town, when in fact it is about independence, particularly in school life?
Much of that is down to the social side of things. Ms Agbona spoke of being sent to have lunch somewhere else and the difficulty in mixing. You do not have to be a visually impaired student to struggle with the social side of things in school. Am I right in thinking orientation and mobility are very important to integration in school and the social side? Would anyone like to comment on that? If there is a postcode lottery happening, it is a big difficulty for kids with visual impairments who struggle with the social side of mainstream school where it is noisy and you do not know who is talking to you. Everybody is often in a uniform so, if you have low vision, everybody looks the same. How important would that scheme be for the social side of school?
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
It is not just in education. Orientation and mobility or travel skills begin very early. Once the child begins to move, you begin to look at the skills around that. It is an incremental process that should be incorporated into a child's support plan throughout education because, as the Deputy rightly said, it impacts hugely on socialising, integration and inclusion in school. Although we provide it across the rest of the country, as well as in Munster, we do not have the resources to provide it to the intensity required to have students independent when they transition into college.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Ms Agbona want to say something about that? She described something that is probably a fear of many parents - that their child would not have access to the social side of school or be empowered. Most parents want to wrap their kids in cotton wool and it is easy to retreat home. Maybe we are not supporting people to move out into the world and make links.
Ms Rafiat Agbona:
My experience was a tad bit more niche because I only have me and my mother, who is an immigrant, so she was new to this country and we were new to me being blind. She was not sure what I should be doing, how much she should wrap me in cotton wool or how much was acceptable to the school. In school, they kind of wrapped me in cotton wool and never encouraged me to be social, did anything that would make me more social or considered my personal life. It was more just, "What can we do to not get you hurt and then get in trouble?"
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I suspect there is a huge cohort of visually impaired students who also have other challenges. They might have another diagnosis. They might, as Ms Agbona said, have a migrant parent who does not necessarily feel she will be heard if she goes to the school. There are all sorts of things because people's lives are complicated and complex. We should have a system that serves that.
Dr. Patricia McCarthy:
This social aspect came out very strongly from my research. As a vision-impaired person, it really struck me. It is essential we enable our young people to be confident in using whatever devices they need, rather than it being seen as a stigmatising thing. That is often what happens, particularly when they are going through post-primary education. They do not want to be always beside an SNA. I was not aware of it as much because my education was through the special education system but when I spoke to those in the mainstream school, they felt they were being put into bubbles. I understand health and safety issues but we need to enable them to go out and be confident. It does not happen overnight and cannot happen between them finishing their leaving certificate and starting in higher education. It is not feasible. It is a continuum of support and encouragement that is needed.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for coming in front of the committee. I will follow on from Deputy Hourigan’s questions. Ms Agbona explained her experience regarding the lunch break, the social side and transition year. It is powerful to hear this. It is good that we are having this conversation and that it is on the record of the committee. I thank her for that.
I will start with a question for Ms Agbona and then move to the other witnesses. My question relates to resources and how schools are enabled to have confidence in this area. As we have discussed, much of the time they have not had training or it is not available to them, and there can be an issue of lack of confidence to enable students on the social side. There is also the extracurricular side, whether that is sports or otherwise. How did Ms Agbona find that different in her third level experience? I would be interested to hear if she saw a change in that area.
I would be interested to hear what engagement the other witnesses have with schools on the element of sport, for example. They may have their own examples. Are schools asking for specific supports, such as visiting teachers? I am learning a lot from this conversation. I want to bring that to the next part of the committee meeting, where we will meet Department representatives, to see what the asks are and what we can bring to that.
Ms Rafiat Agbona:
Personally, I found college to be completely different. I was given full independence and all decisions were down to me, which was nice. I did not personally take part in sport but I could have, and they would have helped me with that. There was a huge difference. In secondary school, I was told that I was not allowed to do anything, even PE.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Can Ms Agbona give an example of that? For people like me who are learning and for those who will look back at this meeting, it would be important to give an example of that stark difference. It is positive to hear this but it should be happening throughout a child or a teenager’s learning experience.
Ms Rafiat Agbona:
One good example relates to independence rather than to sport. In first year of secondary school, they said that we could go on a trip in second year depending on what language we studied, so it was one year ahead and we had time to prepare. I was told that if I wanted to go, I had to bring a parent whereas everyone else did not, so I opted not to go. In college, I was thinking of participating in a trip to Disneyland and no restrictions were put on me, and although I did not end up going, that was by choice. Differences like that made me think back to the times when I was not allowed to do anything. In third year of secondary school, my friend and I were taking part in a science project. We got selected to go but I would have had to bring my mother, so I left my friend to do it by herself, which was disappointing. I was so annoyed and frustrated by the restrictions and having to bring my mother when she would have been fine with me being with my friend.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is powerful. Thank you.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
In representing parents, we know that what happened in that case is very common. It applies to transition year trips, where people cannot go unless the SNA comes. Schools will have different policies but, very often, either students bring a parent or they pay for the SNA to go, and sometimes the SNA is not allowed to go. What it reinforces all the time is the other - you are different; you are other. That is what we are trying to get away from here. Being left out of PE is also very ad hoc.
As I alluded to earlier, it is about how competent your parent is in advocating for you. That is such inequality. It is totally dependent on whether the parent came up through the system. My kids went through quite well because I was able to work part-time and I was at the school all the time.
That is just not good enough, not in this day and age. With regard to PE and all that, it will be the same thing. Parents will not want their child to get injured. It is part of their education to learn their physical literacy skills and that is all a prerequisite to orientation and mobility. The schools need to have skills in how to support a visually impaired child. When the mother says she does not want the child getting hit by a ball, they have to say it is very important and tell her what they do. The Deputy is making a really important point. That part is not really in the curriculum either, it is very ad hocand needs to be incorporated.
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
Just to follow on that, the key piece here is that it is incorporated into the support plan. I refer to the Department's recent research indicating that support plans are not being used effectively or widely. For this cohort of children, it is absolutely essential to build in all of that, social skills, physical activity and all the other independent skills that are needed. Once a child enters primary school, from age four on, it must be part of their support plan. The different organisations that need to support that must be included as part of that and recognised for their expertise and knowledge.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am aware that we will have the Department in and I want to be able to ask the questions. We are saying it should be incorporated into support plans. Ms Walsh said that different schools do it differently. Should there be something like a circular from the Department indicating what is best practice?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
That is one approach. There needs to be support around it as well. Educators need support. There are bodies like Vision Sports Ireland that can come in and change all that. The recent success of the Paralympians is great. We need to harness that and bring it into school, and stop those children being the teacher's helper when PE is on. That is often what parents do and schools are very frightened of being sued, but we need to turn it on its head. It would probably be a combination of things like education, a circular, and bringing external people in to change perceptions.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to talk about the technology and when it fails, but I wanted to ask another question. As a committee, we went to a school with children who are deaf. The kids would probably call themselves teenagers and they were all taller than me. One of the things that really stood out to me was how they described things like transition year work experience being very difficult. Dr. McCarthy was mentioning the whole issue of career guidance. Ms O'Dwyer was discussing moving into the workplace and that kind of thing. These teenagers were telling me that the kind of work experience they can get just is not what they would be interested in actually doing. It is not what we would expect work experience should be. What can we do there? I will ask Ms Agbona to bring in her experience in relation to that. Young people might be interested in being a solicitor, a lawyer or whatever. They should have that support. Maybe the Department is actively engaging with potential employers who would put that out there or whatever. Maybe for young people from smaller towns, there might not be somebody in the town with the ability to take it on.
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
I briefly mentioned it. We are four years running the TY programme which is a very specific, individualised programme for students with visual impairment. It has proven to have a massive impact in terms of students preparing to transition into third level. We now have the first cohort of those who have transitioned into higher education. We address the whole area of access to information in terms of efficiency and independence around accessing information.
Then there is the whole area of work experience, work etiquette and work knowledge where incidental learning is missing for people who do not see what a workplace might look like or what different careers look like. I firmly believe that an individualised transition programme is the only thing that will have a high impact.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Ms O’Dwyer explain how exactly how that works for someone who does not know?
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
It is a half day per week throughout transition year, or rather three half-days and one full day in Dublin per week for the transition year. It includes independent travel to and from our centre in Dublin, assistive technology and digital skills and accessing information. They practice using the different platforms that are used in further and higher education. The whole focus is that they are independently accessing their information at the end of it and that they have agency around their learning. That also includes exposure to workplace practice and experience.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would anyone else like to come in on that?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a really good point. I have another question. A friend told me how when she was transitioning from school to third level that there was a massive improvement to access to supports. Why is that? She said the figures qualifying under the DARE scheme had dropped while she was in college. Is that still happening? She found there was a huge difference between school and college.
From what Ms Agbona said, she felt there was much more independence. I wonder why is that the case. I tend to deal more with third level than primary and post-primary so I wonder what the difference is.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Two of my children are blind and they are in college and I find it fascinating. Yes, it is definitely the case that when they move to college there are more supports available. What can be a difficulty is if they have not learned to self advocate in school or if they have tried to self advocate, such as asking for digital papers or extra time in exams, and they have been told “No”. In that case, it is very hard for them to go into college and self advocate for what they need. That is a really important point that needs to be made.
DARE has almost exploded with the number of people using it because there are more diagnoses and more people saying what they have. That is a benefit and also a disadvantage for our children because it is harder for them to get their voices heard and, again, they are more of a minority.
It is the way it is set up at third level. There are teams of people, including technology experts, so is not just one person, which is how it can often happen in school. As they are bigger spaces, they have more experience of students with vision impairment. We are dealing with schools who might have a child with visual impairment and might not have another for 20 years. It is a complex issue and that is why we need to involve everyone at the table to try to solve it.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That makes absolute sense. Looking at assistive technology, is there enough technical outreach or supports when technology fails? What happens when it does?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
It is such a huge issue. There does not seem to be a system in place. The Deputy said “technology fails” but often it is that technology is not failing but that nobody in school knows how to use it. I have found that the Department will say it will spend a certain amount on training, the school gets a digital budget and it is up to it how to spend it. A new visually-impaired child comes into the school and the teacher might go off on a training programme. That could be three or four hours. Anyone who has ever had someone show her every single thing that their mobile phone can do and afterwards find themselves thinking, “Oh my God, I am so stupid, I can’t use my mobile phone”-----
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The printer is a classic example.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Yes. They tend to be like that. We are talking about pedagogy. It is about teaching skills. With technology it is about what it can do, when it needs to be put in place, how we put it in place and how the SNA and the teacher work together to ensure that the child can open the digital books and not have the SNA doing it.
It is a matter of what is available to the child when moving on a year. What happens now is that when something goes wrong with the technology for the child and SNA, it is all a big palaver. However, there might not be anything wrong with the technology; it might be that nobody really knows how to access it and use it. Addressing this is missing in education and this needs to be done.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is really important.
I have just one more question because I know I am over time. Could Ms Walsh elaborate on how the digital papers pilot could be optimised? How can we make the experience work for children with multiple diagnoses, who may need even more support in availing of the option? Are enough resources being put into this area? That is something I could raise with the Department also.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Regarding digital papers, we made the breakthrough two years ago. Those papers are fine; they are non-editable PDFs. The student is given the flexibility to pinch the screen and determine the size he or she needs. What we really need are papers that the students’ reading devices can read, so they will not be as dependent on a reader and can work in the way they work in school. That is the ideal option.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that being talked about by the Department at all?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
It is talking about carrying out a review. This was what we were supposed to go into last January but there has been no word since. The option in question is available in Scotland and many other places, so we are really in the Dark Ages when it comes to our State exams. We are way off with regard to many things, including the time the students get. Obviously, they require extra, but they are not allocated enough time to finish their exams either. It is a huge issue that probably could do with-----
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What does Ms Walsh mean by saying they are not allocated enough time? How much time?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I still remember my leaving certificate examinations, so-----
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not very much.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Exactly. It is a total of an extra half an hour. For some subjects, like English, history and geography – do not quote me – a student can get only ten minutes regardless. If you are accessing the papers with the reader or using Braille, it will take much longer. Let us compare that to the North. In the North, a student with a visual impairment can get up to 50% extra time, and that is a reasonable accommodation.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
That is how far we have to go with the State examinations. This is another issue that I recommend we tease out here because, if we get all of what we are talking about in place and our kids still cannot access exams, we are handicapping them again. Leaving them with someone to read and write for them is just not on.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I did not fully understand the response when Deputy Hourigan asked questions about modified papers. Can Ms Walsh explain it?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
Some visually impaired students will be all right with enlarged papers, whereas others will need enlarged and modified papers. "Modified" means all the pictures taken out and graphs made simpler. The quality of our modified papers is really low. When I sent ours to the North to be examined, those concerned said they were not modified papers but just papers without pictures put in. Making provision for non-modified papers alone cut the cohort to about 20%. Next year, provision was made for modified papers. However, we need to move on to papers that can be accessed by digital readers.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator O’Reilly has five minutes. I am going to be very strict because we have gone way over time.
Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I apologise for being so late. I listened to the committee proceedings from the start and I thank all our guests. My colleague Deputy Hourigan has been in, so I am not going to go over old ground. I thank the guests for coming in. Overall, they have been quite generous to the Department of Education, because any parent or student listening to this debate would be horrified by how much time it has taken it even to get the small amount they have got. I thank them for being very specific on what is needed.
I have heard about the technology and the need to learn independently. A really good point was made on how the orientation and mobility element could wrap into summer provision. I have been the chair of a school, and for me the variation between schools with respect to the visually impaired is quite clear.
More generally, when national policies are put in place, and in this case there clearly have not been enough national policies, there is so much chasing by parents the fact is that those who have more social and cultural capital in the education system are given preference. Those are general points I wanted to make. I am very conscious that the Cathaoirleach is concerned about the time, but are there any last thoughts on that? Ms Agbona mentioned coming from a family where it was her and her mother, and that just the two of them had to advocate, when her mother did not necessarily know the system. Do the witnesses have any last thoughts on that social capital, the inequality and the battling to get this far, before we go into the next part of the session?
Ms Toni O'Dwyer:
I will give one example. It is, however, many years since Ms Agbona had the option to go into transition year. To show how things have not changed, my first call at 8.15 a.m. concerned a 15-year-old boy who is not allowed to go on a trip abroad because there is no SNA to go with him, or the school will not pay for the SNA. He does not even have the option of having a parent to go with him.
Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Even if you were to bring a parent, for most people, the cost is prohibitive for one person to go, let alone two people.
Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Absolutely. Certainly not mine.
Ms Derval Healy:
From a reading services perspective and the delivery of alternative formats, there are so many different publishers throughout Ireland and so many different schoolbooks within the system. The example we always give is that we produce five or six copies of Macbeth each year because the publisher has different notes within that. If we could look at standardised books, even within the core subjects of Irish, English and maths, within the education system for schools with children with a visual impairment, it would mean those children would be guaranteed to have those books in September of each year. A very small change within schools-----
Ms Derval Healy:
We are hopeful that the book rental scheme, and the purchasing of books being taken away from parents and going direct to schools, may reduce the number of new books that come in. We are looking at different editions of books every two or three years, which means a whole reformat of books. The perfect example of that is the Shakespeare plays and producing maybe five or six versions of the same Shakespeare play because the notes differ. There are some solutions, again, with working groups, that we could look at with the Department to simplify the process and make accessibility be there for students.
Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That has been an issue in the background anyway. For almost every family, the affordability of books has been an issue. There is an extra dimension to that for the visually impaired.
Ms Eithne Walsh:
From Féach's point of view and that of all the parents I represent, we need to see change. We have kept this so narrow because at this point we need to see something happen. We brought the committee a very narrow remit so members can go to the Department of Education and really fight for our children. We are all echoing the same thing. We did meet but we all said the exact same thing. It is within the committee's power and remit because so much is just down to the dots not being connected. I hope members have got that from today and that they will continue to communicate with us because from our point of view, this has been very useful.
Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Having that continuity where everybody is saying the same thing is very helpful.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator O'Loughlin has three minutes. We have gone way over time.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is completely fine. My apologies. I had the opportunity to listen to the opening statements. I was quite surprised when I saw the figure of 38,055 Irish young people under the age of 19 who have some type of visual impairment. That is significant. It is quite high. Obviously, we need to do all we can to try to ensure that they can reach their potential in education, socialisation and living their lives.
The key issues for me are around the summer provision programme. That is highly important in helping any of our young people who have challenges. It certainly can help make the September to June period a little easier, if that particular help is there. Will the witnesses address that, as we only have three minutes?
The issue of geographical disparity is also important.
We often talk about the postcode lottery in relation to people that have some type of challenge or disability. The witnesses might comment on those two things.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The witness will have to be very brief.
Ms Derval Healy:
In terms of summer provision, and it is probably to repeat some of what was said already, it is looking at a working group around service providers. It must have a vision first approach to it. By that I mean, we are utilising the skills that are required from visually impaired people within that summer programme. On a national basis, again it is the service providers coming together and showing the expertise they have and then talking to the Department on how that can be distilled down in a correct timeframe.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could the witnesses comment on the geographical disparity?
Ms Eithne Walsh:
To me, the geographical issue highlights everything that has happened. It started 20 years ago and was seen as great but is now forgotten. We all know it now, so let us fix it. That would be not be unusual and is how ad hoc things can be. That is why, as I keep saying, sessions like this are vital.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One thing that popped out to me, when Ms Walsh talked about the State examinations, was about us being in the Dark Ages. I will not ask her to comment on it but I thoroughly agree with her. As a politician, and I have no doubt this includes other Members of Parliament, we have all come across these situations in April or May where people panic when they go to the Department of Education and they come back with a "No" answer. They have to go back and forward and that should not be the case. Officials of the State Examinations Commission and the Department treat visually impaired people shabbily.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When Ms Walsh spoke, I was not aware she had a son or daughter who was visually impaired. She was speaking at first hand. I know from speaking to parents that they are at their wits' end when it comes to this. They should not be worrying about the exam and about how long more they have. They should be 100% catered for. They have already gone through enough in their six years in post-primary school without having to go through that as well. The pressures State examinations bring, be that at junior certificate level or leaving certificate level, are not only on the person sitting the examination but on the whole family. This is heaped on top of that.
We are absolutely in the Dark Ages. If this was one thing that was sorted out at this meeting, I would be very happy but, unfortunately, it does not work that easily. If there is any-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Fortunately or unfortunately, I will be departing this Chair in the next couple of weeks. There will be a whole new committee. I do not know anything but I would encourage the next committee, through the clerk, to have a session specifically on visually impaired people with the State Examinations Commission. The witnesses should come in as they have absolute evidence of how it affects them. I ask the next committee to look after this. I have not asked the next committee to look after anything-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All you have to do is look at all the changes. Most of the changes to the State examinations come from legal cases. That is the way it is.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is an absolute shame on the SEC.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all the witnesses for coming in today. It was intriguing to hear the witnesses' statements and replies to members.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
From the Department of Education, I welcome Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer with responsibility for special education policy; Ms Angela Corcoran, principal officer with the special education workforce development unit; Mr. Martin McLoughlin, principal officer with responsibility for special education, forward planning and special schools; Mr. Frank Hanlon, principal officer with responsibility for special education operations, governance and litigation; Mr. Neville Kenny, principal officer with the curriculum and assessment unit; and Ms Claire Burke, assistant principal officer. Mr. Paul Keating, assistant principal officer will assist the other officials with materials but will not speak during the meeting. The officials are here to brief the committee on the educational needs of visually impaired students in primary and post-primary education.
The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Doody to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from committee members. Each member will have a five-minute slot. I invite Mr. Doody to make his opening statement.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to attend and for the opportunity to outline the range of supports available for blind and visually impaired children and young people in our school system. I am a principal officer within the Department’s special education section. I am accompanied by a number of my colleagues who work across a range of policy and operational issues in the special education sphere, namely Ms Corcoran, Mr. McLoughlin, Mr. Hanlon and Ms Burke.
I am also joined by Mr. Kenny.
As the committee will be aware, the Department of Education’s policy in respect of supporting children and young people with additional needs, including students who are blind or visually impaired, is very clear. Based on a child-centred approach to the provision of education, our role is to ensure schools are equipped appropriately to enable them to meet the needs of children and young people with additional needs such that they will be supported to access an education appropriate to those needs. This means children with additional needs should be supported to the greatest degree possible in mainstream settings, with additional teaching and care supports to allow them to achieve their potential. In circumstances where children with additional needs require more specialised interventions, we ensure access to special class or special school places. We have a small number of special classes and special school places dedicated to supporting blind and visually impaired students.
The vast majority of children with additional or special educational needs are educated in mainstream settings in the education system, with approximately 97% of all children in our schools attending mainstream settings. Critical to these students' educational success and their successful inclusion in mainstream settings are the classroom teachers, special education teachers and SNAs, who support and nurture each child to reach his or her full potential. Over 40,000 special education teachers and SNAs are employed in schools to work specifically to meet the learning and care needs of children and young people with additional needs.
This year, the Department of Education will spend in excess of €2.7 billion, or more than one quarter of the Department’s budget, supporting children with special educational needs. Budget 2025 builds on this investment, increasing funding in special education by a further 7%. This is the highest ever provision of funding by the State for special education and it allows for an additional 768 special education teachers and an additional 1,600 special needs assistants for our schools in 2025. It will also provide an additional 2,700 special educational places in our education system next year, building on existing capacity nationwide.
In line with the agenda for today’s meeting, I might take the opportunity to set out details of some of the specific supports that are available for children who are blind or have a visual impairment. For children with greater levels of need who are blind or have a visual impairment, there is a dedicated special school in Drumcondra, St. Joseph’s Primary School for Children with Visual Impairment, and two special classes attached to post-primary schools. This special school and the two classes support 63 students at present.
The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, employs 16 visiting teachers, VTs, supporting 1,379 children and young people who are blind or have a visual impairment. VTs are qualified teachers with particular skills and knowledge of the development and education of children with varying degrees of sight loss. They provide valuable early intervention support in the home to babies and their families. VTs work with young children on stimulating vision and providing support in the development of pre-Braille skills and mobility. They also advise schools and parents on the various supports available, thereby offering longitudinal support to students and their families from the time of initial referral through to the end of the post-primary education.
It is very important for children who have visual impairment to be able to access the curriculum in a way that best meets their needs. To help meet this need, the Department of Education funds reading services run by ChildVision, which the committee heard from earlier. This is a national service, working closely with the NCSE, schools and families, that provides access to educational material by transcription into a range of formats accessible to children with a visual impairment. These formats include Braille and large-print format schoolbooks. The Department also funds Bookshare Ireland, which has access to a large digital library of primary and post-primary books in a range of formats to suit the needs of the child. All these services are free to those children who need them.
As the committee will be aware, since 2017, the underpinning principle of the special education teaching, SET, allocation model is that it provides additional teaching resources to schools to enable them to provide for the identified educational needs of students without a requirement for diagnosis. This shift from a diagnosis-led to needs-based model ensures all children have access to the supports required to help them achieve in school. Schools are front-loaded with special education teaching resources and have the autonomy and flexibility to ensure students are assigned supports as they are required. Schools can approach the NCSE regarding their SET allocation, and if a school needs additional resources to support children with additional learning needs, this can be reviewed quickly by the NCSE.
In addition to the main supports, I wish to outline in summary detail the supports that are available for students who are blind or have a visual impairment through the typing tuition scheme. A total of 20 hours of typing tuition can be made available to schools to help to improve the typing skills of a student. Currently, 23 children are being supported under the scheme. The Department also has an assistive technology scheme, which provides technological support to children who need this for accessing the curriculum. This includes Braille and equipment to support students who are blind or have a visual impairment, such as Braille embossers, magnifiers, touchscreen laptops, iPads, and software such as Braille translation and screen reading. The Department increased its funding for this scheme by €2 million in 2023 and is fully committed to providing a range of technological supports to support students who are blind or have a visual impairment. The concept of universal design now underpins all of the Department's technical guidelines on the design and build of new schools and school extensions. The accessibility and usability of a building is a key determinant of a quality learning environment. Additional provisions are also made in the design and build of new classrooms which are specifically to support students who are blind or have a visual impairment.
We continue to work hard to ensure we are providing a supportive, inclusive education system for all children, especially children with additional needs. While significant progress has been made across a range of fronts, we are always aware of the challenges faced by individual children and their families and we are continuing to work with the NCSE and all of the education stakeholders to address issues as they come to light. It is important for the Department and the NCSE to keep abreast of the latest research and developments internationally on how best to support students who are blind or have a visual impairment. This is something we are very aware of through the research function in the NCSE and through the Department’s representation on various EU special education groups.
I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to outline in summary detail some of the supports available for students who are blind or have a visual impairment. My colleagues and I look forward to engaging with committee members and providing more details in relation to any questions that members might have.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Doody. I call Senator O'Loughlin of Fianna Fáil.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Cathaoirleach. I appreciate him accommodating me because I have a Commencement matter to raise at 1 p.m.
I thank Mr. Doody for that comprehensive report. I was struck by the great work done in Drumcondra with the 63 students there. We were told that 16 visiting teachers are looking after 1,379 students, which is in stark contrast to the figure we got of 38,055 young people under the age of 19 with visual impairment. I appreciate not all of them will be at the higher end of the scale, but it seems a stark contrast in figures. While I understand that other measures have been put in place for children with visual impairments, it is possible that more resources are needed.
On accessibility, I was fortunate enough to visit two new schools with the Minister, Deputy Foley. These fabulous schools - St. Paul's Secondary School in Monasterevin and St. Conleth and Mary's Primary School in Newbridge - were funded under the large-scale capital programme. I did not look at them through the lens of somebody with a visual impairment being able to navigate around a school, so I am wondering what type of provision is being made in the new large-scale capital programme schools and in the additional accommodation scheme to support students, or indeed teachers, who are visually impaired.
I have another two or three questions. Advocacy groups have spoken about the importance of data collection and publication, so I would be interested to hear about the steps that have been taken in this regard. There is a so-called specialist curriculum in the UK, other parts of Europe and the US for visually impaired students, but nothing has been done here in this respect. Do the officials have any comments on that? Historically, there has been a low level of transition of visually impaired students from second level to further and higher education.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I thank the Senator. There was quite a bit there. My colleagues may provide additional material and responses regarding some of the questions. I will start in reverse order.
Regarding transitions, we accept that young people need to be supported effectively to make sure they make the appropriate transition into whatever the destination for them is, be it the world of work, further and higher education and so on. As the Senator is aware, in all post-primary schools, there is guidance provision and there are guidance counsellors who support the work of students with special education needs, including those with visual impairments. It is important to note, however, that we have added a number of programmes into the mix in recent years, recognising that some students with additional needs require more support. I am referring specifically to two transitions programmes the Department has instigated in recent years. One is teacher-led and one is led by an NGO. They are very different programmes, but essentially we are trying to test what is the best way of supporting students with additional needs to make optimal transitions from school.
The programme that is teacher-led is probably the most relevant to the Senator's question because we introduced it as part of the Department's commitment to the comprehensive employment strategy for persons with disabilities. We have moved the programme, which we introduced last year. Initially, it was in mainstream schools and special schools. It is a very simple concept. We provided the schools with additional resources in the form of teaching hours. We did not come to them saying we wanted them to do A, B, C, D and E. We asked, were we to give the schools an additional teaching resource and taking account of the number of people in the school with additional needs, how the school would best deploy that teacher. It is an organic approach, if you like. We expected and saw very different approaches in the 20 schools involved in the initial stages of the programme.
That has morphed this year, and it is now being offered in 40 special schools, including the special school for the blind in Drumcondra. That school is in receipt of additional teaching hours this year. Due to the fact that we have expanded the number of schools significantly, and based on our engagement with the initial schools last year, we made a decision that six hours or one additional school day is probably what is required, because in most instances it is a small number of young people who are actually going to make the transition. We have provided six hours to 40 special schools. We are still very much in the testing phase. We are asking the schools to test the approach with us and for us and there has been a very positive response across the board. We support that programme through the NCSE. It is co-ordinated through the NCSE. An evaluation of that programme will be undertaken, which will determine the way in which we develop policy for the provision of children and young people with special education needs, including young people with visual impairment in their transition from school into the next stage.
In addition, the Minister announced that guidance provision is to be extended to all special schools. As the Senator knows, rightly or wrongly, special schools are categorised as special primary schools. It is an historic issue, but that is the way it is at the moment. There is no post-primary allocation of teaching hours to those schools. Regarding guidance provision, what we are doing is testing this approach on the transition side with a view to inform how we will ensure guidance provision is provided to special schools, including the school for the blind. That is going to take some time to work its way through, but it is the Department's and the Minister's intention to make sure that young people with additional needs, irrespective of their location, are supported really well to make the appropriate transitions.
The second programme is the NGO-led programme, which is very different as it is an off-the-shelf manualised programme offered to young people in special schools, but it does not include the school for the blind in Drumcondra at the moment.
That is another way of working. The learning from all of those programmes is intended to determine how we develop policy for children and young people to ensure they transition effectively into school and from school and beyond. A budgetary measure that was included for 2025 refers to a specific piece of work that is to be undertaken on transitions and, most particularly, to support the transition of young people from primary school into post-primary school. We have to work through the details, but that was included as a budgetary measure for 2025. I know I have not been very short in my answer. This is a long-winded way of saying there is an awful lot going on in that space, all of which will inform future policy development.
I presume the Senator was referring to the extended core curriculum in the UK and other places.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is not a term we use in the Department or in respect of the work of the NCCA. The way we look at it is that the cumulative impact of all the measures we have put in place addresses what would be addressed in the UK by way of the extended core curriculum. Things such as orientation, mobility and reasonable accommodations are all part of the extended core curriculum in the UK. We do not call it the extended core curriculum but if you drill into it, we have in place the measures that are in the UK. We just do not call it the extended core curriculum.
On data collection-----
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I must go to the Seanad Chamber for a Commencement matter.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Mr. Doody to continue briefly.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
On data collection, we are conscious of the State's investment in the area of special education. As I stated, €2.7 billion is going into special education. We must be able to show outcomes in that regard and, for that reason, we have established an outcomes working group in the Department. It is going to be a fairly substantial piece of work which will enable us to in some way determine that, for this level of investment, a certain level of return is being achieved. We hope and intend to work with the educational sector to provide the schools with the wherewithal to capture data related to outcomes. There is an enormous piece of work in determining what we mean by outcomes because for some it is literacy, numeracy and attendance, whereas for others the measure might be very different.
The best way to deal with the question about new school builds is to describe my experience of visiting a brand-new school 25 years ago. The school is in north County Dublin and at the time was the envy of everybody in the area. Everybody was delighted with the new school building. I was in the inspectorate at the time and I went into the school building. The principal said to me that the builders were gone but there was a problem because one of the children in the school had a visual impairment. It was an unusual structure. The child with the visual impairment could walk straight out the door and onto the road. There was no barrier there. That is the very opposite of what is done these days. That was a complete lack of universal design. The principles of universal design now underpin our approach to building and to the development of buildings and new builds. The first thing that the architects in the Department ask is how to develop and construct a building so it meets everybody's need.
The Senator also asked about visiting teachers and I have information in that regard if it is required.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine as teacht os comhair an choiste. I am aware that I have five minutes and five questions to ask so I will try to get through them as fast as I can. They all stem from what we heard in the previous session and the first relates to summer provision. One of the things we heard clearly from our guests during the previous session was that they feel strongly that summer provision should be led by service providers and should be seen as a fourth semester, or whatever you want to call it, and as a part of the year for visually impaired students. Is that something that has been considered? Has the Department engaged with the sector on that point?
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
I am delighted to hear that because the summer programme has grown substantially over recent years. As part of that expansion, we are looking at involving third-party options, and perhaps we can do something along the lines of what the previous contributors spoke about. We touched on this briefly in respect of ChildVision some time ago but we will pick up on it. We will announce this, we hope, before the end of the year in order that there will be enough time to prepare for next summer, and it is something on which we would be interested in collaborating. There is difficulty sometimes, given the specialism associated with it, but a lot of the kids are facilitated in the summer programme. St. Joseph's, for example, has run a summer programme, which is good news, but we are definitely open to exploring any other options out there.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is brilliant. It is great that something productive might come out of this committee. We will not have an involvement there, but the Department and service providers can deal with each other and we hope that could be achieved.
Turning to the issue of modified digital exam papers, there was a strong feeling that some of them have not been modified, or if they have been, it is not to the same standard as, for example, in the North or in Scotland. That came out strongly from the session. Where are we with that concept of modified digital exam papers?
I apologise for having to be abrupt but I am aware of my limited time.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Had those papers been modified? I understood they had not been.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I refer to modified digital papers.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Specifically on the modified aspect, what work has been done there?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is my understanding the modified digital exam papers either were not up to scratch or were not available and that the strong recommendation was that that would be worked on. Maybe that is something the Department will follow up on after the meeting.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Another issue coming out of that topic of conversation in the earlier part of this meeting related to additional time for the leaving certificate. I understood it to mean that students get an extra ten minutes per hour but that that is not the case for all subjects. Moreover, in other jurisdictions, there is an additional, say, 50% of time allocated. I recall sitting my leaving certificate and struggling to get through every question we had to get through in the time allocated, which is obviously part of it, but visually impaired students would need additional time. Is that going to be part of that review or is it a separate matter?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I understand that review was promised two years ago. Is that correct?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was it promised two years ago?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, but I am asking about that specific issue given it was raised. Obviously, we can all learn, but if it has been promised for a period, I would imagine it should be actionable as quickly as possible.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could the committee get a written update when that has been reviewed? Could it be looked at for this year?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When does Mr. Kenny expect the review to commence?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It depends on whether we consider autumn to end this month or next month, I suppose. We might get a written review on that.
On whether orientation, mobility and life skills should be part of the school curriculum, we heard about how well this works in three counties in Munster, where it is put through the education system, and about the benefit of it.
That pilot project started 20 years ago. Why has a pilot project taken 20 years and why has it not been looked at in other areas?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is fair to say that is a legacy issue. We have been engaging with colleagues in the Department of children and the HSE on orientation and mobility. It is clearly an important skill and necessity for children and young people.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What does Mr. Doody mean by a legacy issue?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
We see the provision of orientation and mobility as being within the remit of the Department of children in the disability space. As for the fact there is funding provided through the Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind, it is essentially a person who is working for Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind in the Munster area and I think there is a service delivered, as the Deputy says, in three counties, whereas in the rest of the country it is through the HSE. We are engaging with colleagues in the Department of children and the HSE to figure out the best approach to this.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is it getting State funding or not?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The three counties in Munster.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Doody is saying he sees this as a potential Department of children issue, yet it is his Department providing the funding.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I understand my time is up, but to me that does not equate when there is a situation where this has been talked about for 20 years and there has been a pilot programme. It clearly seems to be working from what the stakeholders have told us and it is a really important aspect of these students' experience. I suggest if the Department of Education is funding it through that particular grant, then it should be looked at.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I reiterate that because it is extraordinary we might be looking to move that funding out of the Department of Education. If it currently is in the Department, that seems an unusual choice because we have heard from the previous speakers that it is about the experience of school and is absolutely about school life. Whether it is a legacy issue or not, we might need to look again at that.
I will return to Mr. Kenny. I sat across from the Minister about two or three years ago and talked at length about reasonable accommodation. I think I had the very small Irish reasonable accommodation document and the very large UK reasonable accommodation document. I asked about this review and was assured it was happening. When I say "review", I totally understand what the officials were saying about things changing every year. I assume students ask questions every year because their needs are not being met and then the system changes as a result. However, to hear the terms of reference are just agreed and the review has not commenced is really surprising to me. I am wondering whether the officials can set out a timeline. There are students here who are struggling with the lack of reasonable accommodation.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sorry, but when Mr. Kenny is meeting the needs of one in four students, what he means is one in four students apply for recognition under reasonable accommodation. I am sure many of those students would say they are not reasonably accommodated.
Mr. Neville Kenny:
One in four students in the leaving certificate this year, or almost one in four students, had a reasonable accommodation, so there are a range of reasonable accommodations available. Obviously there are some that are specific to visually impaired students but then there are others more broadly-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just looking for a timeline. I have a very small amount of time. I am just looking for a timeline of the review.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. I understand it is the SEC which has the main role here, but does the Department sit on the review body?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has Mr. Kenny seen the terms of reference?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will they be publishing them?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Department expect to be a member of that group?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Department is not a stakeholder.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am hugely frustrated by Mr. Kenny’s answer. The Department is not a stakeholder, and the SEC sits as an independent body within the Department. We talked at length in the previous session about the lack of joined-up thinking between the good work the Department is doing, such as introducing technology, trying to support students with mobility and trying to increase supports to schools, that falls down when the students come to exams, which is the main barrier to their proceeding to tertiary education. It is, first, very frustrating that the review does not seem to be as progressed as I was led to believe and, second, it is very frustrating that the Department would continue to take such a hands-off approach with a group that is vulnerable in terms of education. It is important that they are engaged and active when it comes to the review of how we undertake exams because there is a very real barrier here. I refer the reasonable accommodation of ten minutes per hour. Anyone who has ever dealt with a child who has a BrailleSense knows it takes ten minutes to boot up the machine and it takes ten minutes to delete something and redo it. It seems extraordinary that it is such a hands-off approach. It undermines the Department's other work.
Mr. Neville Kenny:
Regarding my own specific area of responsibility around senior cycle redevelopment, I have very close working relationships with the SEC. To be fair to the SEC, it has committed to doing and has delivered a number of things since the senior cycle redevelopment programme was announced. For example, in respect of the senior cycle levels 1 and 2 learning programmes, the SEC will be certifying those programmes for the students who come through on those programmes. That is a significant development in itself. It also provided this year, for the first time, integrated reporting of results for students who were taking the leaving certificate applied programme but who had access to leaving certificate established maths or modern foreign languages. That is helping students transition forward. Much work is being delivered by the SEC in relation to how it responds and reflects, or best reflects, the needs of individual students.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay, but it is still being taken to court by students for not receiving the correct supports.
Mr. Neville Kenny:
Looking at the response to the visually impaired pilot project, for example, a Workplace Relations Commission case was taken that led to the expansion of that scheme from leaving certificate to include junior cycle students. There was always a recognition by the SEC that it will adapt, respond and reflect different needs as they emerge.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would Mr. Kenny recognise that there is a top-down departmental approach from the SEC where it is not upholding the UNCRPD and the person-centred approach that is now required and that is now actionable in the past few weeks under the optional protocol? I have formed the opinion that the Department is giving the SEC a free run on this. They are not engaging with individuals when an individual, in all of their complexity and specific needs, is telling them the reasonable accommodation they will need and that they have no idea what the SEC will allow them to do. It is a very top-down process and the SEC seems to be an incredibly opaque body.
Mr. Neville Kenny:
I recall what I said a moment ago about the number of students who are availing of reasonable accommodations for their certificate examinations. Significant numbers of students have reasonable accommodations made to them. It is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. Different needs are responded to in different ways.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Kenny is talking about the number of students, which is fine and great, and hopefully we would accommodate them all. From my side of the desk, I am receiving many complaints – not hundreds. I often hear people saying they have no idea what reasonable accommodation they will be given, that nobody will sit down with them and that nobody will talk to them.
Mr. Neville Kenny:
Detailed information is provided each year to schools by the SEC. The applications for reasonable accommodations are made by schools on behalf of students in their schools. Information is made available. There is no requirement for a diagnosis in order to access those reasonable accommodations.
Where the applications are made, the SEC is responding. The number of students who are availing of the scheme demonstrates how that responsiveness is being given effect.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are students here today. Will Mr. Kenny undertake to take some of their details and forward them to the SEC for reasonable accommodation?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have only to add to what the Deputy said. This is directed towards Mr. Kenny. I do not want a reply, but what came across very clearly today from one of the witnesses was that when it comes to State examinations, pressure is already on the family, the student and parents. They then have to go through this. I have personal experience of this from a political point of view, like Deputy Hourigan. People should not have to go to their local TDs for us to make representations. I will be departing this Chair and retiring from politics but, for the next committee, I have asked the clerk to do some piece of work on visually impaired people and the State Examinations Commission. There is something missing there. It is a real common-sense thing. I genuinely say that.
Years ago, somebody was either deaf or blind. Now we have people with so many forms of disability. The Department cannot help everybody, but a blind or visually impaired person doing a State examination should be treated a little differently. I know it could be said that somebody with autism should then get time because he or she is not as fast as somebody else or whatever. However, I genuinely say that the committee is getting very short in its time. This could be one thing that we could sort out. The witnesses would be very happy if officials engaged with the State Examinations Commission, as Deputy Hourigan said, because they are at their wits' end. They are just tired of the constant backwards and forwards. That is what I got from them today. We spoke with somebody with real experience. I am not sure whether this person has a son or daughter, but one of the witnesses has a child who has gone through this. Something should be done on that. In the committee's short time, I am not sure we will be able to do something. We could be here for the next three months; I am not sure. It is what it is.
Do members have any further questions?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a happier note maybe, for some of that-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----I will turn to Mr. Doody. Who will sit on the outcomes working group?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Really? Okay. That is interesting.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That would be very useful.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I recognise how difficult it will be to agree what those outcomes will be or what the performance indicators will be.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That will be a huge challenge but it will be very interesting work.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have two quick follow-up questions. The school in Drumcondra, which I know quite well, was spoken about a little. Rosmini is opening soon. Where does it sit? Will it sit as a standard mainstream school with special-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is it opening in November?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
Yes. There are 16 places available for young people in the two special classes. I think 13 places have been taken up so there is a bit of capacity. There have also been developments on the primary side. I am not sure whether the Deputy is aware of these. In recent years, St. Joseph's has been given the sanction to retain young people with more complex needs. Its post-primary enrolment is increasing steadily enough. Almost half of the students in St. Joseph's, approximately 40% of them, are students of post-primary age with more complex needs.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are those students who might need, for example, more than an SNA on site? They might need-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----some medical care.
There was a question on visiting teachers. I want to give Mr. Doody an opportunity to answer that question.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
By "associate" Mr. Doody means they are not actively meeting students but they are working at a policy level.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They work with the visiting teachers.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is an incredible service. They seem to-----
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is a superb service. Yes, there are pressures on numbers but that is the same as on the hearing side. The task that the visiting teachers service has to undertake on a continuous basis is to make sure the kids who need the greatest level of support get the most sustained support. At any time approximately 45 children throughout the country are in receipt of the greatest level of support from the visiting teachers. While the caseload numbers are very big at first glance at more than 1,300, more than 60% of these are on a check and connect basis. Most of them are doing fine. There will always be situations that are completely unexpected, such as meningitis or a car crash. A visiting teacher then has to reallocate time to meet a particular need at a particular moment in time. From my experience in managing the service, I thought the visiting teachers were very good at this. There were some fairly challenging cases where young people who had sight up to the age of 14 or 15 were, overnight, then in a very difficult situation. I can give several examples of excellent support being provided to these young people so the very best was got out of them.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Post Covid I can only imagine there was a specific level of pressure on visiting teachers because of the impact of lockdown on all children with disabilities but on visually impaired students particularly.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is not specific to the visually impaired. We know there were significant challenges with regard to children with more complex needs. We all saw the news reports of young people who had learned how to eat and that skill being lost because they were not at school on a consistent basis. I do not have specific information on the impact of Covid on children with visual impairment but in the same context, we know there were impacts more broadly on students with complex education needs. It is fair to say we could include children with visual impairment in this.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
An idea has crossed my mind. Perhaps the officials could ask the State Examinations Commission to send a written submission to the committee on some of the contributions today from the witnesses. It would be welcomed and might finish off the piece of work we are doing. I am not sure whether time will allow us to do so.
I thank the officials for coming before the committee and briefing us on this very beneficial issue. We all take our health for granted but when people have to deal with the coalface of trying to get the best for their son or daughter they will go to any lengths. We have to be cognisant of this and keep it in mind in any decision made.
The meeting will now adjourn until the public session of the joint committee at 11.40 a.m. on Tuesday, 22 October 2024. The select committee will meet first, as agreed earlier, at 11 a.m. to consider the 2024 Supplementary Estimate for Vote 26.