Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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The agenda item for consideration this afternoon is the resumption of pre-Committee Stage detailed scrutiny of the Commission for Future Generations Bill 2023, which is a Private Members' Bill in the name of and drafted by Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh. Its main aim is to establish an independent commission for future generations which will report on how best to establish an office of ombudsman for future generations to act as a guardian for the interests of future generations of Ireland. The committee met with a number of stakeholders last week regarding the provisions of the Bill. It was an informative session. Invitations were issued to two academics to appear before the committee this afternoon, but, unfortunately, due to other diary commitments and unforeseen circumstances, they had to decline the invitation.

In addition to the sponsor of the Bill, Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, we are joined today by Ms Valerie Duffy, who is the global youth work programme manager with the National Youth Council of Ireland, NYCI, and Ms Diandra Ní Bhuachalla, who is an NYCI project officer with the Youth 2030 project. They are very welcome to this meeting.

Before we begin, I will go through a few housekeeping matters. I advise members that the chat function on Microsoft Teams should only be used to make the on-site team aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise during the meeting. It should not be used to make general comments or statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In that regard, I ask anyone who is joining us online via Microsoft Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution.

In advance of inviting witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them all of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh and the witnesses will be allocated five minutes to deliver their opening statements, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with members. That completes our housekeeping matters. I will now proceed with the meeting. I invite Deputy Ó Cathasaigh to deliver his opening statement.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair. I will not repeat my opening statement from last week in full. I will say to the committee and the witnesses, however, that I am quite honest about the provisions of this Bill. It is a commission to set up a commission. It is limited in its scope. It sets out a piece of research work that would be needed if we thought it was a good idea to transpose a version of the Welsh legislation on future generations to an Irish context. That could not be done quickly because it needs that research work underpinning it. That is what my Bill proposes to do.

The central ambition of the Bill is to establish an independent commission for future generations to consider and report within 12 months on how best to set up an office of ombudsman for future generations in Ireland. I have set out a number of key areas this proposed commission could examine, including the measurement of progress of the overall well-being of our society using the well-being framework, which is something being worked on already in the Department of the Taoiseach; how to ensure best practice among public bodies and Departments, which is important; embedding the principles of sustainable development in all we do; and a potential role of a joint Oireachtas committee on future generations, as we have seen in other jurisdictions.

The provisions of the Bill, for the most part, are technical in nature and are about the setting up and dissolution of the commission. I draw the committee's attention to section 3 of the Bill, which sets out the functions of the committee specifying that it should have regard to the well-being framework as well as intergenerational issues including climate and biodiversity emergencies, the provision of care to children and older people, demographic changes and intergenerational income and wealth distribution.

Last week, Senator Clonan had some very constructive suggestions on what else could be included on that list.

Section 5 sets out various criteria for how members of the commission should be appointed, taking into account experience and knowledge of areas such as climate science, ecology, economics, intergenerational equity, public health, culture and the arts, or community development. I feel strongly as well that there should be a competence in Irish-language matters.

Section 15 is perhaps the most consequential section. It details the proposed output of the commission once established. It specifies that the commission shall report not later than 12 months after the appointment of its members. It sets out 11 matters that may fall within the consideration of the scope of work of the commission. Again, this is not an exhaustive list. If this Bill proceeds to Committee Stage, I would be hopeful that members would bring their own perspective, experience and expertise to suggest other areas that this commission might usefully examine.

I thank the committee for the engagement to date. I found last week's session very useful and I look forward to hearing the outcome of today's session as well.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I ask Ms Duffy and Ms Ní Bhuachalla, both of whom are representing the NYCI, to deliver their opening statement.

Ms Valerie Duffy:

Along with my colleague Diandra Ní Bhuachalla from the NYCI, I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee to discuss the Commission for Future Generations Bill 2023. The NYCI is a national representative body which supports over 50 community, voluntary and not-for-profit youth work organisations in Ireland that work with up to 400,000 young people annually in their local communities. The NYCI works in partnership with other local, national and European organisations to ensure young people have a seat at the table and a voice and opportunity to influence society. Our Youth 2030 global youth work programme is a consortium including Concern Worldwide, Trócaire and the centre for youth research and development at Maynooth University. We work to ensure the youth sector is aware of and engages with the sustainable development goals, making connections between local and global issues from personal, local, national and global perspectives.

Two significant aspects of our work involve managing the UN youth delegate programme with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Irish Aid and running a future generations climate justice project, funded by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We supported our UN youth delegates and young people's committee in March of this year to run a youth consultation ahead of the UN Summit of the Future. More than 70 young people from youth work projects across the country shared their ideas on everything from international peace and security to financing for sustainable development. These recommendations formed Ireland's Youth Pact for the Future, including a youth declaration on future generations. This was a key avenue for young people to influence international negotiations and to have their voices heard. I will pass over now to my colleague, Ms Ní Bhuachalla.

Ms Diandra Ní Bhuachalla:

We follow international developments in this space with keen interest, including the work of the Welsh Future Generations Commissioner, the UN Summit of the Future and the introduction of a new UN envoy on future generations, and the new mandate of the EU Commissioner-designate for intergenerational fairness, youth, culture and sport.

We have long been aware of this Commission for Future Generations Bill and of Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's work. Should it be adopted, it will enable Ireland to officially join an existing community of visionaries, placing us at the forefront of a new approach to policymaking and policy coherence and enhancing the standard of living for current as well as future generations. We especially welcome section 5 of the Bill but would call for expansion of the language around the commission's composition to include all nine protected grounds under the Equal Status Act.

As active members of Coalition 2030, we support the asks contained in its recent report, including establishing a future generations commissioner for Ireland and public awareness-raising on the importance of long-term policymaking.

As we begin the implementation of the UN's Pact for the Future, the NYCI reiterates certain aspects of the historic global agreement. First, youth and future generations are two distinct groups with separate needs and interests. Second, meaningful youth participation must be strengthened on the national level. Third, the fundamental role of young people as agents of change underscores the importance of intergenerational dialogue and engagement. Regarding each of these points, this Commission for Future Generations Bill could not be more timely. We would encourage the inclusion of young people to advise on, shape and engage with the commission and hope the Bill will be adopted.

We will leave the committee with a quote from Ireland's Youth Pact for the Future, words directly from young people:

We commit to leaving a legacy behind for generations to come – as individuals, communities, leaders and institutions - which is one of peace, justice and compassion. We want to be good ancestors. We recognise that to build peace, we must be peaceful; to achieve justice, we must act in a just manner; to share compassion, we must be compassionate to ourselves and others.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you both. I remind members before I open the floor to questions and answers that when putting their questions to the witnesses, they should adhere to the agenda items scheduled for discussion. I now call on the members to put their questions in accordance with the speaking rota circulated in advance of this meeting. Each member will be allocated seven minutes, and I ask members to bear in mind that time to allow the witnesses to respond. I first call on Senator Tom Clonan.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh again for bringing forward this useful legislation. I have very little to add to the questions I put last week. One of the questions I put was about the categories of citizens that might be deemed suitable for inclusion, so I endorse what Ms Ní Bhuachalla says about all categories of citizens as set out in the Equal Status Act.

As regards thinking about the future, we have generation Z, generation X and so on. I am 58. I refer to my age group, my demographic cohort, as generation F, a generation that has failed the generation coming after them. My parents were born in the thirties and had their working lives in the fifties and sixties. My grandmother fought in the War of Independence. She wanted a better life for the young men and women who would come after her. Then my parents' generation put in place all the building blocks for social goods, notwithstanding all the issues Ireland had - things like free access to secondary education. Social housing was considered normal. I have often said this here, but I remember 1972, when I was six years old, before Ireland even joined the European Economic Community, EEC, as it was then. Ireland in 1972 was the Ireland of the pitchfork and the candlestick. Ours was one of the poorest countries in Europe yet we were building social housing. I remember standing on the street with my sister in Finglas in 1972, a six-year-old and a four-year-old, and we saw all the prefabricated houses going past the end of our road that were being used to build Finglas south and Finglas west. Even when we had nothing, we were building houses. Since my generation has taken the reins - I would date this back to about 1990 or 1991 - it has pursued a neoliberal agenda that has commodified everything, including health and housing - homes. We are where we. As regards young people, including my adult and teenage children and all the students I lectured over the last 22 years, I used to ask groups of postgraduate students to put their hands up if they thought they could plan to have their own home or apartment in Dublin - I stopped asking the question because I felt it was unethical - and no hand would go up. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, shelter is a basic human requirement for us to be functional. Therefore our society is, by definition, profoundly dysfunctional.

That cheery preamble is why I welcome this Bill. I am here moaning about generation F. I do not know how much younger than me Marc is, but he is not generation F. He is generation FI - fix it. It could have stood for something else.

As I said last week, rather than me just giving out about things, it is very brave to try to engineer a solution. This is one of the ways we can do that. We must do it.

What are the biggest challenges for global youth work? Is funding a challenge? Is it a recognition that what you do is an essential social good? What are the biggest challenges and how does this proposed structure assist in seeking to meet them?

Ms Valerie Duffy:

I thank the Senator. In the grand scheme of things, the challenges we face relate to conflict at local, national and global level. We also have issues of climate change. Then we have young people who, as the Senator said, are unable to afford a home of their own or for whom the cost-of-living crisis is an everyday issue. There is a good deal of hope among young people. It is not all doom and gloom. There are many who are really determined to make a difference. They want to improve their lives and those of other young people within their communities and the lot of future generations. They also have an eye on what is happening at international level.

Regarding the youth pact for the future, during the consultation process we held in March, young people were very clear about a number of key issues that they wanted to see progressed. Among those is that young people should be seen as key stakeholders in decision-making and policy-making and that it is not just young people who would have everyday access or be the most proficient at making speeches. They want those who are most marginalised in society to also have a voice. They were very much looking at solidarity, making the connections between personal, local, national and global issues.

There are a number of issues we could go into. There is always an issue about funding for youth services at a local and regional level in particular. A lot of good work is done at the coalface of Irish society by youth workers who often have precarious conditions or may be on low pay. They are doing absolutely quality work. They are doing one-to-one work, group work and supporting some young people who need just access to that one good adult. The latter has an absolutely transformational effect on those people's lives. One of things we would like to see in the future is greater recognition of youth work.

Regarding the Bill and looking to future generations, the issue in many ways is that if we are caught up in a challenge or a crisis we can act in a short-term way and, therefore, maybe not look to the future to see what the effects of making a decision today can have on future generations. It is really important that we have this kind of joined-up thinking and that we take into account the impact the decisions we make today might have on young people and on future generations.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Would anyone else like to respond?

Ms Diandra Ní Bhuachalla:

One of the main things we try to work on is awareness raising around the SDGs specifically. I met Deputy Ó Cathasaigh at the High-level Political Forum on Sustainable Development in New York last year. One of the mains things that was coming out of that was the need supercharge and turbocharge the SDGs and keep hope alive in terms of reaching them at a time when, we were told, we are only about 12% to 15% of the way there. That is difficult when we are raising awareness between local connections to global issues and global connections and local issues. We go to these international conferences to try to learn more, to try to advocate, and people are already talking about the post-2030 goals. Then we come home and are trying to lobby for the same things that we have been lobbying for and that we have 15 years to try to achieve. As much and all as young people are the ones keeping the hope alive because they want to see change and have recognised that the change we need has to be systemic, it is not going to happen within the typical five-year planning cycle we currently have. We need to change social norms and social attitudes and we need things like universal healthcare.

None of this is going to happen under a short-term approach. We understand that some of policies that are there need to be reactionary because of the challenges we currently face. We saw that with the pandemic. However, the pandemic also taught us that we need to prepare for what is to come. People are very much looking at climate change, at the fact that glaciers are melting and at the viruses that are going to arise as a result and that might affect us in the future. They are looking at climate change through a climate justice lens in the context of how it is going to affect human rights. All in all, what this Bill is going to do is give us hope that we will start thinking more long term and prioritising or even just thinking about the needs of those who are yet to come. If we had started doing this and thinking like this 50 years ago, we might be in a better position. It is wonderful to see indigenous communities around the world that think we are just renting the land we are on and that we have a certain amount of time on the planet. It is also wonderful to see the connection they have to the people who came before them and those will come after. If we could all endorse that kind of mindset, we might be in a better place.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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There are just two things I would like to draw out from what Ms Ní Bhuachalla and Senator Clonan said. First, neoliberal capitalism was rightfully identified as the kind of ideology within which we live. Something Professor Peter Doran of Queen's University Belfast said to me once has really stuck me since. He said that the most successful ideologies were invisible. Very often, we cannot identify that we are living within a dominant ideology. One of the things this Bill could potentially do by stepping back and looking through a long lens, is allow us to step out of our ideology and begin to think about things in a much more comprehensive and long-term way. That is one of the things I would like to see an ombudsman or commission - whatever way we term it - of future generations being able to do.

The other critical thing Ms Ní Bhuachalla raised is that youth and future generations are two separate groups. While I absolutely agree there should be a youth voice within this commission - and the commissioner could play a very important role in facilitating a youth voice - the Ombudsman for Children already occupies that role. When I think of this legislation, I think of my kids. My eldest guy will turn 18 in 2030. He will still be young, but he will not be a child anymore. He will have achieved the age of majority. By the time we get to 2050, he will be the age I was when I started my family. This is the type of thinking in which we need to be involved in order that people who have not arrived at all yet have the opportunity to live in a sustainable future. It was interesting last week when officials from the Departments of the Taoiseach, the Environment, Climate and Communications and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth came before the committee. I did not know when I was drafting this Bill which Department it would land with, but we have to be careful not to confuse it as a voice for young people. Young people and future generations are two separate things. It is very much about, referencing something Ms Duffy said, giving a seat at the table, be that to young people or to those who have not arrived yet and who do not currently have a seat. That is what this Bill is designed to do.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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As the Deputy says, we are so immersed in the neoliberal imperative. However, I can remember Ireland in the seventies. I got my first job in the eighties. I can remember it, dark and all as it was. There were certain things in respect of which there were received values, such as housing and health. I remember watching a documentary programme involving Alan Whicker in America. I apologise that these are all very ancient references. We were shocked when we saw an elderly man going to an emergency department in a hospital in Florida. The camera crew followed him and he was asked did he have health insurance. We were saying "Oh my God, can you imagine if that ...". We thought this was unheard of.

We are inhabiting that. We are in a hegemonic space that is more red in tooth and claw than even the United States is. In the area that I am interested in, disability rights, they have the Americans with Disabilities Act. They are more empowered. That is how far we have come. I am of a generation that benefited from all of the things that my grandmother and my parents worked for, such as free access to education, being the first person in my family to go to Trinity, and all that followed. I challenge that hegemonic space that we are in and the Gleichschaltung. I can see it since I came in here, with Government colleagues who want to do the right thing but, because it does not resonate with the ideological impulse we are so used to, they almost feel it is problematic, even though it is not.

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. On so many occasions in these committees, unfortunately, with different witnesses, it has been adversarial. Sometimes it can be a little negative trying to call out deficiencies and defects in things, but I really commend this Bill. As a way of thinking and challenging - it is going to sound like the lyrics of a Michael Jackson song and maybe I should not mention him - to have faith not only in young people but also that iterative process to think about the people who are coming next, to try to incrementally remedy or undo the damage that has been done, but to be thinking about it, as the Deputy said, beyond the five-year cycle. As he said about his children, does not that concentrate the mind? My hope is that they will move out before they are 50. That is my forlorn, vague hope.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I must say I thought generation F would be a bit more of a provocative "F". It is interesting.

On a philosophical point, Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has done a lot more thinking than I have on this idea of future generations and a commission for future generations, people who are not currently here or, whatever way it is, are in a particular time in their life, and how one imagines how they would participate in something going forward. I apologise if my questions are at that basic level of understanding.

When we think about future generations and what the commission might look like in terms of those future generations and their seat at the table, how do we ensure that the values or the power concentrations of the now do not embed that same concentration of power, ideology, value or principle? Will the commission be always developing or will it be grounded in particular principles, structures or guidelines such that we throw an arrow into the future generations but, because it is people who are currently in the now or are making certain decisions because of the social context of their lives, they in a way get to decide what the commission looks like? If those who are closest to power end up developing what the commission looks like, how does one stop it repeating patterns of power going forward? I do not know if that is an appropriate question when thinking about the commission or if it is easier to understand than I am making it. It is great if we can fully philosophically engage with all those ideas of future generations. It is not necessarily a youth thing because that is the now; it is not the future. I would love to hear the Deputy's thoughts, if I am even making any sense in terms of what I am asking him.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is a super question. It is a tough one. It is very difficult to answer because we are all a product of our context. As for whoever fulfils that role, we can point to the examples that we have had in Wales where we have had the likes of Sophie Howe and Derek Walker, who have been in posts. Of course, we are all products of our context and our environment.

A strength is that they are not aligned to power. They will come from a background. They will probably be university educated and there will be all of those things that go along with it. They will probably have a Civil Service background and know how the levers of power work. That is, in a sense, unavoidable. In the context of the question the Senator put, there is a real challenge in that.

They are not somebody who has to win the next election, however. It is about trying to step outside of that electoral context. I had a conversation with Professor Tadhg O'Mahony, who was here last week, about an aspect he likes to talk about. I know, for example, that the Senator has run marathons. One does not run a marathon by saying, "I will start a marathon tomorrow." One says, "Nine months or ten months from now, I will run a marathon", and one works back from there. Similarly, Professor O'Mahony talks about taking that long-term lens where one does not say what we want next year. The Senator and I and Senator Clonan and the other political parties will disagree vehemently on what needs to happen for next year, but if we talk about 50 years from now and begin to form a vision of what we would like our society to look like 50 years from now, there is a good chance we would be closer to agreeing on what that should look like, be that the provision of housing, a safe and stable climate, the protection of biodiversity or clean energy resources. We would probably agree on that. Like in marathon preparation, if we start with that long-term goal and work back, maybe we can get away from some of those ingrained power imbalances that Senator Ruane was talking about. I would not pretend, however, that the solution to the problem she has put to me is contained within the provisions of this Bill. The Senator is looking at a much wider lens in terms of those systematic power imbalances that we see in our society. This commission has a role to push back on it but as for whether, within the 38 pages of this Bill, I am able to answer the Senator's question, I do not think I am.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I am more trying to understand the intent rather than even scrutinising the Bill. I apologise; I know this is pre-legislative scrutiny.

I am also thinking there is potential for somebody who has privilege and power in the moment. Sometimes people often feel a bit precious about that or a bit insulted when one points out that they are extremely privileged and asks what are they doing with that privilege or how they are using that privilege to help dismantle power because, in dismantling power, they have to address their own power and not everyone fully wants to look at the power they have. Potentially, with the idea of something into the future, 50 years away, one would hope they would feel less like they were being blamed for something that is happening currently in society and it would allow them to open their minds to a future that does not necessarily give them a task or an immediate thing to do in the present. Obviously, power and privilege want to protect the generations of power and privilege that come after it but it is interesting to think about. The commission could be really powerful in that regard. While I know it is not only a youth piece, that ties into a potential for a kind of youth interaction with that piece or whatever role that is.

In terms of youth work, we created The Future of Youth Work document in this House that prioritises the youth sector and recognises the role it plays. There is something of an outdated understanding of what youth work is. It is a profession. It is an extremely expert and highly skilled profession in terms of the types, especially in the communities that I work with most, such as with young men or men in prison, addiction or homelessness. There is all of that stuff relating to insecurity and a lack of safety. Youth work is not paid or recognised in the other professions that dip in and out of that, whether that be social work or primary healthcare. They play a less consistent everyday role than the youth worker does. The youth worker really acts as that buffer between a complete lack of safety for a young person and that sense of safety and addressing environment factors, families and so on.

When it comes to the youth delegates piece and the young people's committees, etc., how do we make sure of this? We can tick boxes on what I call "diversity", but that does not really cut it for me as diversity. One can have something that, on the surface, looks like diversity because of particular demographics but obviously we want to have regard, when there is representation at EU level or wherever the opportunities are, to how far can one reach.

Who is least likely to be able to access a youth service within a community? Do the witnesses have any ideas on how we empower very targeted, innovative and creative outreach programmes to be able to not necessarily have to pull people into the idea that they need to be part of a youth service to do this, but that ad hocyouths can be found in other ways that they can still engage but they may not necessarily be regular users of a youth service? I am thinking of young people in Oberstown or for whom their daily engagement in terms of their well-being may be with a boxing club. They may never cross the threshold of a youth project but may still have a lot of complex needs. How can the witnesses be really ambitious and innovative in making sure those UN youth delegate spaces can be as open as possible while also still being supportive? Have the witnesses had any thoughts in that regard?

Ms Valerie Duffy:

In terms of the Bill and talking about where it might go, and taking into account the representation and ensuring a wide variety of groups are represented or thought about, it will very much be the make-up of the commission in the future. There is a listing within the Bill of the different representative groups that could be included in that commission and it will be very important to ensure those who come from marginalised groups or who are hard-to-reach - or whatever terminology we want to use - are included and involved in that commission. If they cannot have a seat on the commission, with regard to any research or consultation that might inform the commission's work targeted attempts should be made to go out to reach and meet the groups that should be heard to get their opinions and hear their voice. That will in turn help to shape the Bill and, hopefully when it is accepted, the commissioner, the ombudsman or whatever terminology is used in the future.

For us in terms of the UN youth delegate, we are always conscious of representation and do our best to ensure the call for the particular programme for young people is open to anybody to apply. We try to target particular groups to at least make them aware of either the programme itself or the different consultations we might have. I definitely hear what the Senator is saying in terms of the boxing clubs. I know there are some youth programmes that do work with Oberstown or go to non-traditional places. It is very important. Youth work, in particular, would be very conscious that it is not only just those voices you would hear or the same young people you might see at similar events. You want to target those who are sometimes left furthest behind to take the sustainable development goals piece. The furthest behind first or those who are-----

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Disruptors were mentioned.

Ms Valerie Duffy:

Yes, disruptors as well.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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If the witnesses want real disruptors they will have to make sure the voice being heard is not somehow managed. If you were to look at disruption at the furthest point-----

Ms Valerie Duffy:

Funnily enough, we have a group we call "effective disruptors". We have been working with some youth workers around bringing in the global youth work perspective and supporting youth workers as well as young people to make those connections between their own lives, the lives of young people and issues around the world as well. For example, we have a youth climate justice project and we work with some groups that would not traditionally have an interest in climate justice. One example is around the marine and someone from inner city Dublin who may not necessarily make the connection even though he or she is not too far from the Liffey. We have seen some young people who were really finding it a challenge in formal education but were just thriving in the space of non-formal education. It was fabulous to see. For me and for all of us, it is really important we engage with those young people that if they see an offer online or whatever, that they would sign up. It is about going out and finding people.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I definitely believe in having ad hoc meetings on stairwells in flats. People have really lost touch with being in other people's spaces. We expect people to apply for stuff online that they will never see. Something can exist but it can be completely non-existent in someone's life. It is like the old outreach style of work. Beyond youth work, nothing should be necessarily consultation. Those closest to the problems are often closest to the solutions and if we make enough effort to work with people, I do not care if it is in a field, if it is their own environment and community. A lot fewer people are doing that kind of work now and it should inform some of the discussions on how we reach into those spaces and be visibly present in communities.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I love the idea of effective disruptors and will see how that fits on an election poster. I would not mind it as a manifesto.

The issue of youth work and community development is a really good lens through which to look at this Bill. If there is antisocial behaviour on the corner of a street, the short-term response is to lock somebody up, to incarcerate them. The long-term response is to invest in youth work, diversion programmes and community policing programmes. Ultimately, through the real long-term lens, it is about investing in those communities so we do not see the perpetuation of intergenerational poverty. That is a really good way to say that this is where this commissioner could be very effective. If I am right, in the Welsh example, they are looking at the idea of a universal basic income for care-experienced people. The Future Generations Commissioner there was very involved in generating that idea because it was somebody applying a long-term lens and saying that in the short term this might look expensive but in the long term this is the best investment we will ever make in our communities. Looking at this Bill through the lens of what has been brought up is a useful way to contextualised what the possibilities are.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Do any of the witnesses wish to make concluding remarks?

Ms Valerie Duffy:

We were all considered as future generations at some stage and maybe we were not named as such. We have now moved from that position to being here today, having some more insight, influence and power and with our collective work, experience of the world, skills and critical view of the future. We have to ask ourselves whether we can do better. Is this the best we can do? We suggest this Bill lays the foundation for important and influential work that can shape society and the planet for the better, for current and future generations. Involving young people in its development as well as marginalised groups and other key groups will be hugely important to ensure intergenerational dialogue around the set-up.

We welcome this Bill and hope it makes its way through all of the Stages that will lead to the commission being set up and the establishment of an office of the ombudsman for future generations as well as a Oireachtas joint committee on future generations. For us, this is a timely Bill. The world is increasingly adopting a future focus at UN and European levels and by increasing the numbers of national governments as well. Ireland can play a leading role in this area and this Bill is taking us there. I hope we will be judged to be good ancestors by future generations.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the committee for being so generous with its time. It is not always the case that a Private Members' Bill gets two sessions. I thank all the witnesses who have appeared before the committee. It has been fantastic to get that level of insight.

To be very political about how the nuts and bolts of how Leinster House work, the further a Private Members' Bill goes, the greater a headache it is for whoever happens to be in power at the time. I would be anxious to get this Bill to the next Stage as soon as we possibly can. The further it goes along the process, the more likely it is that somebody within the corridors of power will decide to resolve their headache. The best way to make this headache go away is to fund this piece of research and get us on a firm footing so we can consider the possibility of this office in the kind of detail we need in order to set it up in the first place. I thank the committee members for their time and attention to this matter.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that we publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon and for their input and insights, which have been helpful and will assist us greatly when we draft our report on this Bill.