Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Annie Hoey. I welcome Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh and he replaces Deputy Imelda Munster. I do not think Deputy Munster is replaceable but Deputy Ó Snodaigh is very welcome.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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She is not but she has decided she is.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has decided to take it easier for the remaining weeks or months.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We look forward to working with our new committee member. Deputy Ó Snodaigh is also a very experienced chairperson of two Oireachtas committees; well done.

I thank Deputy Munster who was an extremely hardworking member of this committee. I propose that we write her to thank her for her invaluable contribution to the committee over the past almost five years. Is that agreed colleagues? Agreed.

We have some committee business to dispose of before we hear opening statements. First, I welcome the witnesses and thank them for joining us. Please bear with us as we go through housekeeping.

Is it agreed that the minutes of our meeting of 10 July are formally agreed and there are no matters arising? Agreed.

This meeting has been convened today for detailed scrutiny of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023. It is a Private Members' Bill sponsored by Deputy Patrick Costello, which proposes to amend the Broadcasting Act 2009 to provide for greater public access to RTÉ's archives The purpose of the committee's scrutiny is to assess the Bill from a policy, legal and financial perspective with a view to the select committee recommending whether the Bill should proceed to Committee Stage. To this end, we will consider the Bill today in two separate session. In the first session the Bill's sponsor, Deputy Costello, will introduce the Bill. We will also hear from representatives from RTÉ and officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. Following a short suspension we will resume for further consideration of the Bill with the industry stakeholders and experts who may be with us in the Gallery today and they are all very welcome.

Members will assist us in considering the Bill as comprehensively as possible. I propose that Deputy Costello is given further time at the close of today's sessions to provide any further clarification or comment necessary arising from today's consideration of the Bill. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Moving to the business at hand, I warmly welcome the following witnesses: our esteemed colleague and Bill sponsor, Deputy Patrick Costello; from the broadcasting policy unit of the Department, Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer, and Mr. Steven Finnegan, assistant principal officer; from RTÉ, Ms Bríd Dooley, head of the library and archives; Mr. Daniel Cody, director of legal affairs; Mr. Dermot Horan, director of acquisitions and co-productions; and Ms Vivienne Flood, head of public affairs and strategy.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver opening remarks, for no longer than five minutes, and I ask colleagues to try and stick with the time given, commencing with the sponsor of the Bill, Deputy Costello. After the Deputy makes his introductory remarks, members will be afforded an opportunity to pose initial questions they may have on his contribution. We will then proceed to hearing opening statements from the Department and RTÉ, which are limited to three minutes. This will then be followed by a questions and answer session from members of the committee, following the speaking rota which all members have received.

As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its webpage? Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we hear from them, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references they make to other persons or in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege.

This means they have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to the identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person inside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable. I propose we proceed with the scrutiny of the Bill and call Deputy Costello for his opening statement and introduction to the Bill.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair and committee for the warm welcome. Hopefully, as the questions begin that welcome will stay warm. I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before them today in relation to my Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023.

My Bill is a simple one; its goal is to open RTÉ’s video and audio archive to the Irish people to whom it really belongs. RTÉ was, until the 1990s, Ireland’s only domestic TV channel. Since its inception and until that point it essentially built up what is a huge national video and audio archive. It is a rich social history of who we are as a nation, where we have come from and where we are going in the future. Countries such as the United Kingdom and Switzerland have recognised this and have made their equivalent archives available to their citizens. My fundamental belief is we should be doing the same. To its credit, RTÉ is deeply aware of the importance of the archive and the responsibility that comes with this. Certain credit and thanks is due to it for the protection of that archive up until this point. The purpose of this Bill is not to undermine that but to simply expand the work that is being done.

In the Bill, I have taken the responsibilities which apply to the director of the National Archives under the National Archives Act 2003 and applied those to the director general. This would “ensure the publication of archives, finding aids and other material relating to archives". It is important to note I have also specified this would be “freely available for personal research and academic use in line with the greater public interest". There is no commercial impact on RTÉ in this Bill. The aim of the Bill is to have a similar impact on TG4 in its archiving remit.

The goal of this Bill is to formalise this process and make it more streamlined. Currently, the process is quite opaque and ad hoc. RTÉ is doing an excellent job and currently provides limited public access to its archives. Individuals can contact RTÉ via email and it will, depending on the query, offer availability to come on-site and view specific material. External researchers, however, have no access to the internal RTÉ finding aids and can only access what is given to them. The fact that this process exists, whilst cumbersome, is important. Many researchers have come forward since my Bill was initially published to voice their frustration at the challenging nature of the process and how difficult it can be in practice to get access. I have also been contacted by people in the archiving and academic sphere offering their support for my Bill, including several former employees of RTÉ itself. The need for the Bill is clear and the support among the people in the archiving and academic communities is there.

RTÉ and the Department understandably may raise issues around copyright and royalty payments that will arise from this Bill. These issues are a red herring and should not impede the progression of this Bill. These are issue that all archives face and they can be managed by managing the archive well and having sufficient archivists in place who can manage records effectively. Indeed, the issues around royalties and copyright are issues those responsible for the RTÉ archives already deal with and they deal with them very well. They provide that limited access and they already address these issues and deal with them effectively. They deal with these at the same time as RTÉ's vast digitisation process and again, that needs to be acknowledged. The aim of this Bill is to streamline that process and make it clearer and less ad hoc.

I visited the RTÉ archives and it is really a treasure trove and the passion and expertise of the staff members who work there is obvious and clear from the moment you step in. I have seen the fantastic ongoing digitisation scheme that will preserve this archive well into the future. The question then arises as to for whom is it being preserved. Is it for internal RTÉ use and the odd researcher that gains access or should it be preserved as that rich social history for the Irish people? If it is that last one, we need to find ways to streamline the process and make it more concrete.

When I wrote this Bill, I felt it was a chance to underline the public service of RTÉ. Since then, we have seen issues and challenges overcome RTÉ. We have to be honest and say to a certain degree, they have lost the public trust. By backing this Bill, both RTÉ and the members of this committee can play a role in the rebuilding that public service and trust. I thank Adam Ladd in my office who was the real engine behind this Bill in terms of its drafting and genesis. As we would not be here were it not for his work, I thank him for that.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Do any colleagues have questions before we proceed?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a brief question and must apologise as I have to rush because I am supposed to be chairing a committee in one minute. I presume the RTÉ archive also covers the Raidió na Gaeltachta archive because it is huge in volume. I saw it for myself and there are more than 50 years of recordings, many of which were never aired, which is the key point, but they were obviously edited. Deputy Costello also mentioned TG4 and obviously, the advantage that station has is nearly everything it has is in digital format already because it came to be in a digital era, which hopefully means it can be archived a lot quicker and be a more user-friendly archive. I have to rush but if I get a chance, I will be back.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions for information really, more than anything else. Who would these archives be available to and would they pay for these archives? What are the views of RTÉ on not letting the archives out? To be fair to RTÉ over the years, we have all those fantastic programmes like "Reeling in the Years" and the like. We forget what Ireland was like ten, 20, 30 years ago. When we look back on these programmes, it is wonderful to have them. Is there a big cost to RTÉ in keeping these archives and would it now, if this Bill goes through, ask what is the point of holding the archives if everybody else can get them for nothing?

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Deputy we will have opening statements from both the Department and RTÉ on that, which may answer those questions. Has Deputy Costello any feedback for that or will I wait until-----

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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On the issue of the cost to RTÉ and those things, RTÉ obviously is best positioned to answer. My Bill provides for making it available free of charge for personal use and academics. This is the model you see in other European countries. As for who pays, the citizens pay but they pay for RTÉ through their tax and their licence fee. They have already paid for this. If there is to be commercial use, then a commercial fee should apply, as is the policy at present. That is, again, totally legitimate. To recap on the question of who is it for, it is for anybody who wants it. It would be free for personal use for citizens and free for academics. Who pays? Everyone pays because we are already paying for RTÉ.

I do not have a problem with that because public service broadcasting is important. We pay through our taxes and through the TV licence.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Byrne wish to respond to Deputy Costello?

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, although I may be anticipating what RTÉ will say. I am quite supportive of the principle behind this legislation. I agree that we should look at making the archive available. I am quite conscious that much of the time we are talking about the television side of things, but a large part of the radio archive has been made available. One of the things I particularly enjoy is the "Doc on One" archive, which I use when I am out running. It is freely available for people to access.

While I am quite supportive of the principle behind this, I would pose a question to Deputy Costello. He will be aware that the State makes a considerable multi-annual financial contribution to RTÉ, which is something that this committee supports. Should one of the conditions of that contribution be a requirement to meet the obligations set out in the Bill? That may be a question for his Green Party colleague, but it is certainly something to consider in the context of how this is going to be funded. Obviously, there is a need to fund the maintenance of the archive and ensure that all of the intellectual property rights are protected.

I quite favour the idea of the development of a sovereign large language model. While I realise we are moving into a slightly different space, this is important. Norway has developed a sovereign large language model. I appreciate that this is easier in the context of the Norwegian language. Trusted news sources are being used such that when somebody asks about the history of Norwegian broadcasting or for a speech on Norwegian broadcasting, for example, they download the information from trusted sources. They use the Norwegian state broadcaster and so on. Following on from what Deputy Costello stated, I would like the RTÉ archive to be able to feed into that in order that it can be used for educational purposes and as an AI tool. I do not know whether that has been considered. I realise that I am opening up the debate a little.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Costello you wish to respond?

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The question relating to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, might be the easier one.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Starting at the end, the contribution from Digital Rights Ireland may be the better place to explore those questions. On the question of access, the Senator is right that much of the archive is already available. That has to be acknowledged. While very good work is made of it, I would look to other European countries that have much wider public access and argue that this is what we should be striving for. The archive is an essential part of public service broadcasting. We need to protect and enhance public service broadcasting.

I agree that the multi-annual commitment to RTÉ is welcome and that we should be asking for more for that. We should be ensuring that if the public is paying, there is public service and for me, this fits very much with that. I appreciate that the heads of a new Bill have recently been published. That would be an excellent legislative vehicle to help progress this Bill. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Martin, about this and will continue to speak to her about it. I am very glad that her officials are here to share her views as well.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I now invite Mr. Ryan, principal officer with the broadcasting policy unit of the Department, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

On behalf of the Department, I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023.

RTÉ, as our longest established public service broadcaster, is in possession of thousands of hours of content documenting Irish life, culture and the history of the State. The preservation and cataloguing of this content, as well as the content held by all of our broadcasters, is a vital record of our national heritage. This Bill seeks to allow greater public access to this content by way of inserting, as a statutory function of the director general, duties with regard to making the archives available, including the provision of finding aids. The Bill also seeks to ensure that the archives are made available free of charge in many circumstances.

As the Minister indicted on Second Stage and as is outlined in the submission made by the Department to this committee in May, it is the view of the Minister and Department that while the intention behind the Bill is laudable, it raises a number of matters and potential impacts, both administrative and financial, that need to be considered. Before ensuring the increased access which the Bill seeks to achieve, it is imperative that this valuable content is first preserved by being fully digitised and catalogued as soon as possible. RTÉ is currently undertaking a substantial digitisation project and diverting resources from this to allow for greater access runs the risk of further deterioration or even loss of valuable archive material. The proposal to make the archives freely available is likely to have a financial impact on RTÉ and TG4 because staffing and other resources may need to be diverted to manage archival requests or to develop archival access or finding aids. Consideration would also need to be given to possible implications concerning a range of issues including copyright legislation, data protection, contractual obligations and, of course, performers and contributors’ rights, as well as other third-party intellectual property owners, and how these would impact the availability of existing content. It would also be necessary to consider the potential impact on the independent production sector should broadcasters be required to ensure free access to copyright content into the future. This may be of increasing concern as our public service broadcasters continue to commission greater levels of content from the independent sector.

It is important to consider the approach of the Bill to insert a singular additional and specific function or duty on the director general. This raises the question of how the respective responsibilities of the board and director general are framed and, likewise, the accountability of a director general to the board, considering the merits of prescriptive duties or allowing greater scope for a board to align duties within the legislative framework with its own strategic priorities.

The Department is happy to continue to engage and work with the committee on all of the matters raised in its examination of the proposed Bill.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I now invite Ms Dooley, head of archives at RTÉ, to make her opening statement.

Ms Bríd Dooley:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the committee today.

As has already been said, the RTÉ archives are a vital resource for understanding the Ireland's cultural, political and social history. Beyond major national events, RTÉ has carefully documented Ireland's folklore, language and traditions and has preserved these accounts of our heritage and identity. The archive acts as a safeguard for Ireland's collective memory, connecting people globally to our past. Ensuring accessibility for current use and for future generations has been a key priority. The digitisation of the archive, as a means to achieve that, has been a complex, ambitious and ongoing project. Last year, RTÉ archives won an international award for excellence in media preservation. We are currently undertaking the largest mass digitisation of audio recordings in RTÉ's history, covering 80 years of content. This involves digitising over 200,000 tapes and discs which will amount to 270 terabytes of data when completed. The goal is to make this content fully available to the public, aligning with the spirit of the draft legislation if not all of its detail.

We already reach the public through our dedicated RTÉ Archives website, through social media, a wide range of programming and in collaboration with many cultural and institutional partners. Since 2015, our bespoke RTÉ Archives website has been a major success, with over 6.5 million views in 2023 alone, including the diaspora. New archive material is published daily with over 2,000 stories added each year. The site also features special exhibitions and searchable collections from television news and radio archives, projects which are supported by the archive funding scheme run by Coimisiún na Meán.

A significant part of our daily work involves providing support to the creative media and independent sector as well as to all of RTÉ's content services. Archives, on average, make up one third of RTÉ's daily news output. Sports services are similarly served, providing a wealth of content for audiences. Archives provide a wide range of content for programming across all platforms including cinematic releases such as the recent documentary film on President Robinson.

We actively seek out partnerships to enhance public access. A collaboration with the National Library, the "Ireland on the Box, TV 60" exhibition attracted over 20,000 visitors. Other collaborative partners include the Museum of Literature Ireland, the National Archives, many decade of centenaries events, the Royal Irish Academy and the Irish Traditional Music Archive. Currently, there is a major Irish language project under way with DCU. This is due to launch next year. Archives also regularly feature in many public events from the ploughing championships to the historic Cork Film Festival.

RTÉ's statement of strategy outlines ambitious plans for the development of all these activities in the coming years.

We aim to complete audio digitisation by 2025 and video digitisation by 2027, with further investment in film collections planned. Investment in a new content management system will greatly enhance access by improving discoverability and availability of content to a wider audience, with the ambition of expanding public search capabilities as our ultimate goal. I thank members of the committee for this opportunity. I look forward to further questions.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The key issue I have is on the cost side. Everyone agrees with the objective of this Bill, which is to ensure the widest public access possible. We are all in favour of that. Let us look at how it can be done.

Deputy Costello made a point about ensuring an academic talking about the social history of Ireland and who wishes, for example, to specifically talk about Ireland during the 1950s can access some of that material and about how easily that can be done. Do we need legislation to do that, and at what additional cost? While digitisation is wonderful in that it allows for so many other options, how can an individual access it?

The second question relates to intellectual property. Who owns a lot of the material in the archives? I am conscious of the point Mr. Ryan made about the independent production sector. Who actually owns everything that has been digitised?

Ms Bríd Dooley:

I will answer Senator Byrne’s first question with regard to academic access. We provide access in response to more than 50 individual requests for academic research projects per year, which range from PhDs to master's degrees. A PhD might last for five years while a master's degree may run over six months to one year. In all cases, we have a clear and fair policy for everyone. To my knowledge, we have not knowingly turned anyone away, although I stand to be corrected. We ask for a letter from the academic’s supervisor, such as a letter on headed note paper from the head of school or whatever, to clarify who the academic is and what he or she is doing. We invite academics in and they get access to their research. We do a lot of mediated access services with them as well.

I am not aware of any complaints about the process being ad hoc or difficult to navigate. It is true to say that with more resources, more could be done. In the appendix provided to the committee, the Senator will see that there are a range of universities, studies and courses, both in Ireland and abroad, we have served in the last year alone. As I said, many of those projects are multi-annual. Without any legislation at the moment, we are on par with a lot of other European broadcasters in how we provide that service.

Mr. Dermot Horan:

As to the Senator’s question on ownership rights, in broad terms, RTÉ owns the copyright of in-house productions, like news and current affairs. It is the independent producer which owns the intellectual property, IP, of independent productions. While RTÉ has extensive rights within the Republic of Ireland for those independent productions, which suits our purposes, the independent producer owns the rights to sell internationally, etc. We, therefore, do not own the rights to “Love/Hate” or “Room to Improve.” They are owned by the independent production company. We have been before an Oireachtas committee previously where we said how important it is for independent producers to own their IP in order to grow.

We do not own the rights to sports. While we own the commentary and the punditry, the rights of the actual programmes are owned by the GAA, the IRFU or the IFA. RTÉ does not own those rights.

There are further complexities with in-house programmes. Someone could have made a documentary in-house, such as an Irish-language or historical documentary, with archive material from Pathé News. That material might only have been bought for two or three years. We do not necessarily have that clear. Even within existing in-house programmes, there is complexity, shall we say.

Mr. Patrick Costello:

These complexities are already exist. The archive department spends a lot of time managing them and it does very well in that regard. Issues around rights, obligations and contractual duties already exist. We are not, therefore, creating a new problem by passing this legislation. We are creating a problem which already exists. It is managed very well and we can continue to do so. That is what the staff in the archive do. While the staff could do with more support, they already do the work well and will continue to do so.

Senator Byrne asked whether we need legislation. Yes, we do. While there is a lot of good work done, if we want to ensure that in 20, 30 and 50 years the good work is still being done, then we need legislation. It is important to set out a strong vision and mandate.

There are much wider questions, way beyond the scope of this Bill, about our National Archives and other archives and what we are doing with them. There are challenges to archives as we move to a digital age. How are all these emails Department officials are sending to each other going to end up in the National Archives? While that is beyond the scope of this Bill, it is an incredibly important question. We should create legislation to establish for the National Archives a power to demand documents and for it to control documents in order that we will have a strong grounding for it and to ensure there is a commitment in this regard going forward.

While this legislation may impose a prescriptive obligation on the director general and RTÉ, lots of other legislation does that too and those obligations do not necessarily get in the way of RTÉ being an excellent public service broadcaster. There are potential impacts and they need to be considered. The funding of all of this may need to be considered as well. Although these issues should be considered, they should not stand in the way of impeding this Bill or setting a greater ambition for ourselves. We may be on a par with other European broadcasters. It is a reflection of the excellent work by RTÉ, about which I spoke, that it is winning all these awards. We can do better. When I look at other countries that have big national archives, I see examples of how we can do better. To achieve the objectives Senator Byrne talked about, we need this Bill. It all comes together in that regard.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Byrne has one final question.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Ryan or Deputy Costello may answer this question about access to written materials. In comparison with other State agencies, such as the National Library of Ireland and its remit and obligations, is there anything relevant from the legislation underpinning that? I want to see as much access as possible. I entirely support that. My question, however, is whether we need legislation in terms of what RTÉ is doing. I am quite happy with the academic access provided and how RTÉ protects international property rights. It is about what more we can do. I am always conscious of the pressure on an organisation when obligations are placed on it when it does not necessarily have the staffing or resources to meet some of the obligations. Can a comparison be drawn with other State agencies?

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

I am not aware whether the National Library or the National Archives and their relevant legislation can be used in this regard. There are already legislative obligations on both RTÉ and TG4 to have an archive and to make it available. It provides that they may charge for them, however. What we would see as key, and it was one of the factors in the conclusion of the general scheme published by the Minister yesterday, is an explicit inclusion that the annual review which the regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, will carry out has to have regard to and incorporate compliance by a broadcaster with its obligations on archiving. There is an obligation under section 1(11) for broadcasters to have an archive and for them to make access available.

What is being proposed in the general scheme is that the regulator would review that. Therefore, it would become part of regulatory supervision and oversight. The intention is that if the regulator had to have regard to and consider the compliance of RTÉ and TG4, it would also feed into the consideration of setting commitments and working with the broadcasters to agree commitments and targets. Naturally, this would strengthen and improve the activities of both national broadcasters. Legislation does exist and an obligation already exists.

On the function and duties of a director general, under the existing Act and the legislation proposed by the Minister, it is quite clear that the director general is responsible for running an organisation, is the editor-in-chief and must carry out any function that the board sets for him or her when in office. It is quite clear that the board has a strategic role in setting the direction of the organisation and that the director general must carry out the associated duty. It is prescriptive. There are quite a number of objects concerning RTÉ and TG4 and this is just one of them. It is inserting just one into the functions, which is probably not seen as the approach to take. If the regulator had a stronger role, we believe there would be a tool through regulation. The new changed regime that the Minister has proposed in her Bill, which would see a stronger role for the regulator in setting the commitments for RTÉ and TG4, could benefit the archives as well.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We have to move on. We are way over the time but I am conscious that we may not have as many members here today as usual. The floor is Deputy Ring's. He has four minutes, or thereabouts.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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To be fair to Deputy Costello, his heart is in the right place, but I am worried about what I see going on. If you put what he proposes into legislation, people would think they have rights and that RTÉ must jump based on them every time a request is made. It would be like the freedom of information arrangements. That power is totally abused. Recently, a guy contacted my office who had made 70 complaints to the Workplace Relations Commission. Under the legislation, the body has no powers to weed out contrary or vexatious complaints. They all have to be dealt with before being thrown out. The individual sent a freedom of information request to my office seeking all correspondence. In this context, I have a fear in respect of the archives.

Mr. Horan surprised me when he said he did not have the sport rights. I did not know that. I thought RTÉ had rights for everything it produces, being the broadcaster going into Croke Park, the Aviva and other place to film. Despite its not having the rights, it is actually paying for this.

Mr. Dermot Horan:

We have the broadcasting rights but we do not own the underlying rights. The underlying rights are owned by the sports organisations. We have the right to show the all-Ireland football final, repeat it and show it on “Reeling in the Years”. That relates to the broadcasting rights but the intellectual property is actually owned by the sports organisations. That would be true for the Olympic Games and the FIFA World Cup. It is not true for Irish sports; it is also true for international sports.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It does not stop RTÉ from replaying if it wants to do so.

Mr. Dermot Horan:

It cannot give the material to third parties.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It cannot give it to anybody else.

My other question is on staffing. How many staff are in place to produce material for and maintain and look after the archives? If the legislation comes in, will an increasing number of organisations be seeking access to the archives? Would RTÉ be able to cope?

Ms Bríd Dooley:

Currently, we have a staff of 39. They look after everything, including all the projects. According to colleagues abroad, this is comparable with numbers internationally. We probably have a few less than most, but the number is there or thereabouts. The legislation in its current form would require additional staff and services. There has not really been a cost-benefit analysis as to what would be involved. It is hard to say without the relevant information and detailed scrutiny of what would be needed to deliver on this legislation.

Based on my role and expertise in the archives, I can say that to create an archive of the kind in question, open to all in the way envisaged in the legislation, is not impossible, but work would have to be done to create appropriate finding aids. If we look to our colleagues elsewhere who are doing this kind of work, we see that the BFI archive, which was one of the examples given by the Deputy, was developed over years. A special finding aid was developed specifically for the kind of research done, based on the expectation one would have today with respect to searching archives.

The catalogues we hold are business records. They are extremely good and are very effective for the kind of professional research services we provide every day. However, one of the reasons we first went into publishing our archives website, which started way back around 2006, when the Internet screen was the size of a postage stamp when you looked at a video, was that we were genuinely trying to find ways to make the archives accessible. We could not provide an individual material copying service and did not hold copyright in respect of everything, so we asked whether we could find a novel approach. We were pioneers in this regard. Since 2015, our service has really grown. It is a matter of audience engagement and public engagement. It is not only a matter of members of the public but also of researchers. It is a really good starting point for understanding what is in the audiovisual archive and what is not. The archive is curated, so people are given an understanding of the particular snippet they have. There might not be a complete programme and there are many gaps. All the records we are digitising right now have to be developed further in terms of metadata just to make them accessible in the daily work of the professionals who come in to use the archive, as well as the academics and others.

I do not know how much what is proposed would cost but it needs scrutiny at the level in question.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough.

The final question I was going to ask has been half answered. It relates to availability and what is available already. Somebody wrote to me recently saying there were no RTÉ archives but one of my girls in the office was able to reply that there were. Maybe RTÉ should be promoting the archives more, indicating how people can gain access to them. I realise the delegates have many things to do, but it might be helpful if they did that.

Reference was made to some of the archive-based programmes produced by RTÉ. They are fantastic. I listen more to radio than I watch television. I actually enjoy some of the programmes on a Saturday afternoon. On Sunday evening, I listen to the history programme and even to the plays afterwards, which are nearly gone. When I listen to them, I enjoy them. We are of a generation, but younger people are so used to being able to source and get the information they want. There are clientele who find it more difficult, however. We forget sometimes that everybody is not computer literate and that they need support. That is why many colleges and schools are offering courses to people, particularly those of middle age and a little older. Without the skills, people may be lonely. They need the skills.

I would like it if RTÉ promoted the archives a little more and explained to people where they are and how they may be accessed.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Since everybody is okay with that, I will move on. I call Senator Cassells.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I have just a couple of questions. I apologise for missing the opening statements. I was in the Chair in the Seanad. I welcome all the witnesses.

What Ms Dooley outlined regarding what is available in the RTÉ archives is really welcome. They played a pivotal role in a debate in Navan this year. When the traffic system was changed in the town, it caused great angst. A local Facebook page shared RTÉ archive material from 13 March 1978, namely a video of traffic congestion in Navan that required the introduction of traffic lights. It caused significant debate. That just shows the effect of visual material about where we were and now are. All joking aside, the footage was pivotal in allowing people to discuss a topic 46 years after it first arose. That is the value of having a visual record available. I thank Deputy Costello for the Bill and the debate it has caused in the Houses and committee rooms.

Mr. Ryan referred to underlying fear related to the danger posed to archival material. How real is that in terms of what Deputy Costello has been trying to achieve?

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

The point - our colleagues in RTÉ probably have more detail on and understanding of it - was simply that RTÉ is in the midst of a very significant digitisation and preservation project.

We believe this is key because there is always the risk that if they do not do it now, we might not be able to. I understand that RTÉ has some very old celluloid tape that obviously will degrade. The point I was making was that if RTÉ was to divert resources - and obviously, prioritisation of resources is a matter for the director general - into providing access in response to individual content requests, that could divert resources from digitisation. As Ms Dooley has outlined, there is quite a lot of work in that. It will be three years before the audiovisual content digitisation project ends. There is a potential risk that we have not quantified. It is a broad risk that were you to divert limited resources, something would have to give.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I seek to marry Mr. Ryan's statement with what was stated in the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Martin, yesterday of the approval of the general scheme of the broadcasting amendment Bill. I refer to section 111 and "whether a public service media provider complied with section 111 by making reasonable arrangements for the public to access their archives". The Minister is obviously moving in a direction where she wants people to have that access.

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

We believe in doing that. The current provision for the regulator is that it may carry out a review and will report on that. Rather than having this very specific obligation that broadcasters must provide everything free of charge at a point of access, we are strengthening the provisions so that the regulator must have regard when doing reviews of the activities of RTÉ and TG4 in the future. Through the regulator considering whether broadcasters are complying and doing enough under legislation as it stands, this would guide and improve services if it is found they are not doing enough.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ has made a statement here today that it is very committed to providing that material in the public domain, but as Mr. Ryan has quite rightly recognised, this is a long process and a process that is going to take care and duty. It is going to be done in the whole, as opposed to in respect of the individual. On that particular line, how is empowering the commission going to contribute to it making a fair adjudication, given RTÉ's statement today?

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

First, there are transitional provisions built into the Bill for when it comes into effect. There will be a transition into a new regulatory regime. This will be an ongoing annual review. It is a matter of the broadcaster having a current project and scheme for digitisation access in which the regulator can then look at what it is doing now and provide views on whether the broadcaster can or should do more. It is a matter for the regulator's side and how it reviews it. This will shift from the current situation where the regulator is not doing that. It empowers the regulator to do that as part of its annual process. In doing so, the regulator, as part of the Bill, will also have a stronger role in setting commitments for our broadcasters. It is a matter entirely for the regulator, which will ensure that RTÉ and TG4 are encouraged to make stronger commitments to their archival activities.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Will there be additional funding provided for this?

Mr. Stephen Ryan:

That is separate. That will be part of the overall review and the wider process of the regulator looking at the commitments broadcasters will have to make and then making recommendations on funding. It is a matter for the regulator as to how it makes the recommendations.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Dooley might have already answered this question previously but with regard to the timeline for what is to be completed, and given that RTÉ has already been at this for a considerable time, what is the timeline to actually achieve that?

Ms Bríd Dooley:

As I outlined, for the digitisation, which simply means the reformatting of material on the older legacy and physical carriers to a digital file, we will have completed the bulk of our audio by 2025 and video by 2027. What begins then is the journey of a new digital archive. A lot of work has to be done to develop the metadata tools. We are implementing a new content management system which will not only see the legacy material brought into that new system but will marry it up with all the archiving we do every single day. The archive grows every day and grows by about 7% per year across our video and much more across our audio. The work of the archive in the context of developing that catalogue is a longer-term process. We are currently looking at areas like AI, for example, to see where there might be some good wins for us in being able to provide greater discoverability. We can then start looking at different models of how to grow and expand access to the archives in different ways for the public. That could be in our existing services, such as our website, or in new services where we decide there is a model we can look at. We are looking abroad at the different models that are there. Much more digital access will be seen in the next two or three years. It is growing every day and the archives website grows every single day. To the Senator's point, we do those archives daily. There is a curated, researched and published piece of content from the archives every day. The publication of the wider archive in any way needs to be carefully considered, simply because of all the legal considerations and costs. However, there are different ways of doing that in a form that would follow other jurisdictions in respect of what they do.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Has RTÉ been able to quantify how much material has been potentially lost because it was irrecoverable?

Ms Bríd Dooley:

Of what we hold so far, the figure I have in my head is approximately 0.05% of our tapes which would have been baked and then digitised. We have set them aside to go back and try again. It is a very small percentage. We have done a lot of conservation work before material has gone out, particularly quarter-inch tape, which can become mouldy if it is badly stored and has been there a long time unused. We have done a lot of that work in advance and we have seen very good results. Some of our material is more vulnerable than others. We tackled some of that material early on thanks to the archive funding scheme, which was launched after the last broadcast Act was brought into being. This was a huge game-changer for us because it was a great learning curve. Digitisation and audiovisual archiving are still quite modern and new. We all expect it to be there but there is a lot of development in it all the time. We check on a regular basis to make sure if there is any new technology coming along that could help us recover material we might not have been able to recover previously or is available to us.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Costello have any comments on the debate and what he has heard from both the Department and RTÉ, and what is his position on how they are progressing and trying to achieve in respect of marrying this to his own ambitions?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I go back to the fact that if it is not written down in legislation, there is no tool to make it happen. There is a lot of really good work happening right now but a vision needs to be put down in legislation to ensure it actually happens.

There are a couple of things here. I do not accept the idea that this legislation would lead to damage of the archives. It is not necessarily going to divert resources from digitisation. Archives are never complete. They never reach a state of perfection and never change again. As the committee has heard, RTÉ is adding to it every day. I have digital files from my time in college sitting at home on a zip disk. I do not have a zip drive any more. I do not know how I am going to get those digital files up. Digitisation is not an end state. Digitisation is the technology you use to display, read and understand content. The software, programmes and physical infrastructure you use for digitisation is going to change in the future. An archive is never complete. It is always going to shift and change and is always going to need careful management.

I do not believe that in general, we value our archives half as much as we should. That is a broad statement and not a reflection of the good work RTÉ is doing. It values its archives and is struggling to get it done and is winning awards with its excellent work. In general, however, I do not think we value or invest in archives half as much as we should. That said, I do not agree that we should wait until the archive is in a state of perfection before putting this obligation on. The archive is never going to reach that state of perfection and having this obligation will help drive the importance of the archive, the change of funding and progressive realisation. Yes, it would be great to make the archive available tomorrow with all of those finding aids and metadata and all that complexity. However, it is not possible and it is going to change. By the time you reach that stage, the technology will have shifted and changed again. To say that we should wait for a moment of perfection and to not wait would be dangerous is wrong and is a failure to understand archives and how they work.

We need to set in our legislation a vision of what we want from public service to help ensure it happens. To have Coimisiún na Meán encouraging to make a commitment is a little stilted and does not carry the same force or weight as ensuring it will happen.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That vision is admirable. The contention made by Deputy Ring would see us go the same route as freedom of information requests. There would be a diversion of resources by RTÉ if there was a flood of requests, whether spurious or otherwise. The Deputy is doing it for the right reasons but it would lead us down the same path. Does he accept the validity of that contention?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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No, because I do not accept the framing of freedom of information in that way. Freedom of information is an important part of democracy, transparency and accountability. I reject the framing of freedom of information as spurious or a waste of resources.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It is a diversion of resources.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The FOI Act ensures that organisations can charge fees. Perhaps Digital Rights Ireland will have some practical experience of this. If someone submits a huge request, the body from whom the request is sought can say, "Sorry, that is a crazy request and we are going to charge you." It is important to put forward in legislation that this is our aim and if issues arise, we will address them with amendments at a later stage. The aim of this legislation is something we want to achieve. It is to impose an obligation to protect the archive. The archivists might support the protection of the archives but does the director general or the board of RTÉ? As I said, there is a wider societal failure to support and understand the importance of archives. It is not about Ms Dooley but the next director general and board. We impose plenty of other obligations on the board and director general including that they comply with other legislation. This Bill is a much stronger way to do this than providing encouragement to make a commitment. How many times have we given encouragement to make a commitment, that commitment is made and then the public service body does not meet its commitment, perhaps for reasonable reasons? Again, encouraging a body to make a commitment is incredibly stilted. It needs to be in legislation in order that it can happen.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes this part of today's hearing. I thank the witnesses for being so forthcoming with information and their ideas and thoughts. I propose that we suspend the meeting to allow them to withdraw before resuming in public session to continue our scrutiny of the Bill. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In this session, the committee will continue its detailed scrutiny of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023, a Private Members' Bill sponsored by Deputy Costello, which proposes to amend the Broadcasting Act 2009 to provide greater public access to RTÉ archives. The purpose of the committee's scrutiny is to assess the Bill from a policy, legal and financial perspective with a view to a select committee recommending whether the Bill should proceed to Committee Stage. I warmly welcome our witnesses to our second session today. I welcome Dr. Eoin O’Dell, associate professor of law, Trinity College Dublin, and legal adviser to the Digital Repository of Ireland. I also welcome Dr. James O’Sullivan, senior lecturer in the department of digital humanities, University College Cork. From Digital Rights Ireland, I welcome solicitor Simon McGarr. From the Archives and Records Association Ireland, I welcome its chair, Niamh Ní Charra. From the Irish Traditional Music Archive, I welcome director, Liam O'Connor, and digital archivist, Dr. Adam Girard.

The format of the meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to three minutes, if possible. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish opening statements on its webpage. This will then be followed by questions from members. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that privilege is not abused.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

I propose that we now proceed with opening statements in the following order: Dr. Eoin O’Dell and then Dr. James O’Sullivan followed by Simon McGarr, Niamh Ní Charra and Liam O'Connor.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

A Chathaoirleach, a bhaill an choiste, agus a dhaoine uaisle, is mór an onóir dom a bheith anseo libh inniu. Táim an-bhuíoch den choiste as an gcuireadh. Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille Craolacháin (Leasú), 2023; agus cuirim fáilte chomh maith roimh an seans é a phlé libh. I am a fellow and associate professor of law in Trinity College Dublin. I was the chair of the copyright review committee. Our report, Modernising Copyright, led to the enactment of the Copyright and Other Intellectual Property Law Provisions Act 2019. One of the aims of our report was to enable users to have access to, and to use, copyright material "in line with the greater public interest", as it is put in the Bill. For this reason alone, I commend the Bill. It is a crisp Bill with two key subsections. I will make some brief comments about drafting issues.

Section 1(a) of the Bill inserts into section 89 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 a general duty on RTÉ to make archives available for inspection and publication. This is a welcome amendment in principle. However, I wonder if adding it to section 89 is the best location. That section relates to the powers and obligations of the director general of RTÉ. As observed by Mr. Ryan in the first session and notwithstanding the analogy drawn by Deputy Costello with the director general of the National Archives, putting the amendment there seems out of place. On the other hand, section 26 of the 2009 Act relates to the functions of RTÉ. It is more appropriate to locate the amendment in section 26 because it relates to the functions, rather than section 89, which relates to the director general.

In respect of that subsection, the duty is to make archives available for inspection but this is not very helpful for those inspecting the archives unless they can also make use of the material inspected. I can go in, look and inspect but then I want to be able to use it. I would amend the start of the subsection to provide for a duty to make archives available for inspection and use. There are references throughout this amendment simply to archives, whereas the Act it amends refers throughout to archives and libraries. Given that RTÉ pretty indiscriminately has things in archives and in libraries, if the access obligation is to mean anything, it should reflect and refer to both archives and libraries.

I agree with Minister, Deputy Ryan, that, on the basis of the commentary from Department and the submissions made by RTÉ, this section should not disturb the terms and conditions on which RTÉ has licensed commercial content from third parties. The Bill can only relate to content created by RTÉ; it cannot relate to third-party content. Therefore, I agree that a carefully drawn distinction on this basis should be included in these amendments.

One of the obstacles to making such content freely available is the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000. If RTÉ was to assert its copyright in its content, it would make access difficult if not impossible. It might be better, therefore, if the various ways in which the Copyright and Related Rights Act can prevent this access were to be specifically excluded in the amendments. In particular, given that if anybody does manage to get access to material in the archives, they would be able to rely on the exceptions and limitations in the copyright Act, that should be explicitly stated in the amendment as well. Rather than specifying the two grounds for access that Deputy Costello refers to, it should instead state “for uses in the greater public interest, including those uses comprised in the exceptions and limitations permitted by the Copyright and Related Rights Act, 2000”. All of my recommended amendments arising from these comments are consolidated in the appendix to the more extensive written version of these remarks.

Those responsible for the RTÉ archives has been very helpful to me in the past. I look forward to working them in the future. I commend Deputy Costello on his initiative in introducing this Bill. I recommend to the committee that it should decide that the Bill should proceed to Committee Stage, where the kinds of technical drafting amendments I have suggested and where, more importantly, the important policy considerations that are being discussed today can be properly considered. Folding it into the context of head 111 of the general scheme of a broadcasting (amendment) Bill, published yesterday, would also be a welcome way forward.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCoiste as a aird. Go raibh míle maith agaibh, a dhaoine uaisle.

Dr. James O'Sullivan:

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill is a timely and necessary step towards enhancing public access to RTÉ’s valuable archives and recognises the critical role these archives play in preserving Ireland’s cultural heritage. Providing true open access to RTÉ’s extensive collections would foster greater public engagement with national history and ensure that these important materials can be utilised by a wide range of scholars, educators, cultural institutions and, of course, the general public, which is possibly the most important group of archives users.

In my capacity as a senior lecturer in digital humanities at University College Cork and, currently, a secondee in the area of artificial intelligence at the Higher Education Authority, I welcome the opportunity to provide my input, which is largely from the perspective of the technical aspects, and I have submitted materials outlining key issues that I believe warrant careful consideration in the examination and progression of this Bill. I will briefly summarise these issues as follows, first, in respect of preservation and access, and second, in respect of the role artificial intelligence in archival contexts, which is changing by the day.

Regarding preservation and access, RTÉ’s archives are a vital national resource, containing unique materials of significant cultural, historical and educational value. Ensuring that these archives are preserved for future generations and made accessible is essential. Building an archive of this sort - or a digital archive, because the archive is already there - is a major undertaking. I am sure the ongoing preservation and digitisation of what is a diverse and complex multimodal collections requires extensive resources. Making such an archive open in the digital sense requires careful consideration of how the project can be sustained in the longer term. Further digitisation processes, metadata generation, digital storage and preservation technologies are all incredibly resource-intensive. To ensure the archive’s longevity, a robust plan for ongoing maintenance - because, as was discussed in the previous session, best practices will change - funding, and staff expertise must be developed. This not only includes technical sustainability but also human resources for curation, metadata enrichment, user support and so on and so forth.

Public archives and digital libraries of a similar scale follow a range of technical standards to ensure accessibility, interoperability and long-term preservation. For this endeavour to be successful, careful consideration will need to be given to the selection of metadata standards, interoperability and data exchange, web integration and so on. Everyone thinks their standard is the best standard. This is before we get to issues of licensing and copyright arrangements, which are beyond my expertise.

Ingesting RTÉ’s archival materials into existing repositories such as Europeana, would enhance discoverability and the data's longevity, but is no small undertaking.

Regarding our national climate change agenda, minimal computing approaches might be considered but, again, these are hugely challenging.

In the context of artificial intelligence in archival contexts, while AI offers powerful tools for making archives more accessible, such as through automatic transcription, search optimisation, and metadata enhancement, if we were to go down that road with the RTÉ archives, we would have to ensure transparency will be put in place by documenting the way AI algorithms have been used to manipulate and enhance the archival processes. Providing access to logs or version histories for digital objects, including AI interactions, can reinforce trust in the authenticity of the archive. However, this will require major collaborations between archivists, technologists and legal experts. There is also a growing risk of archival material being misused or manipulated through AI technologies. For example, the creation of synthetic media that could alter or misrepresent archival content poses a threat to the authenticity and trustworthiness of historical records. There are, of course, solutions to this, but it is crucial that any further development of an open RTÉ archive in a digital sense would include provisions for safeguarding the integrity of archival materials in the digital age.

I will conclude there because I am conscious of the time. RTÉ's archives contain materials of unique cultural significance and morally they should be made openly accessible. However, practically doing so is a major undertaking that has to be done right and in a manner that delivers adequate return on what would be substantial investment.

Mr. Simon McGarr:

My thanks to the committee and the Chair for the invitation to speak here today. I am a solicitor with McGarr Solicitors and I have been asked to attend on behalf of our client Digital Rights Ireland.

We have been invited to make submissions on the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023. It is a short Bill that seeks to: task the director general of RTÉ with making the RTÉ archives available for public inspection and ensure their publication along with related material and access tools; and to make the archives freely available for personal research and academic use. Those are the two aims.

The combined intent of these amendments appears clear - to ensure that the general and expert publics would both have the ability and the right to use, access and possibly share material from the RTÉ archives on a non-commercial basis. This mandate would dovetail with the existing plans to digitise the RTÉ archive, which has previously been financially supported by the BAI as well as internally by RTÉ.

While the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023 does not put a time limit on the successful opening of the archives, it is clear that to do so will involve a considerable upfront commitment in terms of accelerating the existing digitisation projects. Our submission today is intended to argue that commitment represents an opportunity to invest in an uniquely Irish means of fighting online disinformation and misinformation, with the potential returns in political stability and a healthy public realm extending decades hence.

The UK-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue examined 13.1 million posts across 12 online platforms as part of its recent report entitled An Investigation into the Online Mis- and Disinformation Ecosystem in Ireland. It found that “Alternative media outlets play an outsized role within this mis- and dis- information ecosystem”. It also fund that those outlets produced "content that is conspiratorial and confrontational towards mainstream media, and their coverage of topics can provide a veneer of credibility to rumours and unverified claims circulating”.

The former editor of The Guardian, and founding member of Facebook’s oversight board, Mr. Alan Rusbridger, described the key problem as one of economics running directly against the social need, stating:

Chaotic information was free: good information was expensive. Truth - if that’s what journalism offered - was living in a gated community."

The RTÉ Archives represent a unique public repository of good information, and by making them freely available, however one would read that term, for non-commercial purposes, this Bill would put on an equal footing all of us who would like to see the public realm supported and empowered in the face of chaotic and sometimes malicious misinformation and disinformation. Video, in particular, short-form video, has increasingly become the primary method of people engaging with each other and sharing information and opinion about the country and world we live in. It is crucial that the raw material, from the trusted sources of RTÉ, is available to feed and nourish that dialogue as the trend continues. It is said in economics that bad money drives out good. This Bill is an opportunity for the Oireachtas and the Government to take a step to ensure good information has an opportunity to drive out the bad, now and for decades to come.

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

A chairde, I am speaking today as chair of the Archives and Records Association, Ireland, also known as ARA Ireland, the principal professional body for archivists, archive conservators and records managers representing members across the island. We are delighted to have been invited and to be given the opportunity to share our expertise, which is incredibly relevant to today’s topic.

First, I commend Deputy Costello on the work that has gone into the drafting of this Bill, and getting it to this stage. I also note the concerns raised during the Dáil debate and the earlier session. Essentially, ARA Ireland fully supports the introduction of this legislation, which will help process, preserve and provide access to an important section of our heritage. However, if it is to

be successful, a number of points need to be considered. The first is resourcing. The work being discussed today does not simply include the digitisation of material and making it available. The

material needs to be first appraised and catalogued so intellectual control is maintained, the material protected and informed decisions on selection and access made. Long-term preservation of digitised and born-digital material also needs to take place. I remind the committee that digitisation is not digital preservation; they are two different things. This is all extremely resource-heavy and at its core is the work of professional archivists. Serious investment is required to ensure these archivists are employed and have the support and necessary resources to guarantee success. Our sector is a seriously underfunded, undervalued and often undermined. I thank Deputy Costello for making this point earlier as well.

The second point is on sustainable resourcing. Providing resources is not enough. It needs to be done in a sustainable manner. Resourcing should be regular, realistic and ring-fenced. Public bodies such as RTÉ should not have to rely on BAI, ad hoc projects should not be the norm nor should others in the sector be in competition with a publicly-funded body for the same pot.

Third, legislation needs to be enacted in good faith. Our sector is already suffering from outdated legislation in the form of the National Archives Act 1986, with 150 bodies and counting not covered and therefore not obliged to transfer material to the National Archives. We have 2001 legislation that promised the employment of an archivist in every local authority, and more than two decades later we are only two thirds of the way there. By contrast it took only two years for every local authority to hire a biodiversity officer. Our sector is crying out for records management legislation to be brought in to ensure processes are embedded in everyday activities today so that in an increasingly digital-only age, our archives of the future are preserved.

Many of the issues raised on Second Stage are surmountable, particularly with the hiring of professional archivists whose expertise includes who to correctly deal with GDPR, copyright, freedom of information and sensitive material, but these archivists need to be hired and our expertise recognised, valued and given a central role. We recommend that sufficient resourcing and structures be provided before any legislation commences but that commencement is not delayed indefinitely. The proposed legislation can certainly be improved and we are here to help in that work. However, ARA Ireland sees no reason for this legislation not to be considered for next Stage, and fully support it going forward.

Mr. Liam O'Connor:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le comhaltaí an choiste as an deis labhairt leo inniu. I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee on behalf of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, ITMA, on the Bill. We fully appreciate the aim of the amended Bill to enhance public access to RTÉ’s archival collections, especially for research and academic purposes. As director of ITMA, which houses the largest collection of Irish traditional music, song and dance in the world, I appreciate the importance of making cultural heritage accessible. Like RTÉ, we are committed to expanding digital access to our collections. Our ongoing collaboration with RTÉ Archives has provided us valuable insights into its ambitious digitisation efforts and the extensive work required to make archives accessible to the public. ITMA faces many of the same challenges as RTÉ Archives, including rights management, cataloguing, public expectations and data security. Despite these complexities, today’s technology enables us unprecedented levels of accessibility. RTÉ’s archives are a national treasure, offering unique insights into Irish life that can benefit people of all ages. However, broader access will only be possible with adequate resourcing. The scale of work involved, from digital preservation to cybersecurity, demands significant investment. Furthermore, striking a balance between free public access and commercial use, especially for Irish films and documentaries, is crucial as RTÉ’s archives grow in value. Sustained funding will allow RTÉ Archives to work more effectively with industries such as film, supporting both cultural preservation and the State’s strategic interests. This Bill represents an important opportunity to secure long-term investment in archival projects with the potential for a global impact.

To conclude, as I wrote in ITMA’s annual report: "Life is short, art is long, and archiving is slow." While philosophical alignment is essential, operational success will require sustained commitment over the next 20 to 30 years to build an unrivalled digital archive for future generations. I will address strategic and operational matters, while my colleague, Dr. Adam Girard, is available to discuss IT and archival issues.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Now I will turn to my colleagues who have four minutes each, if at all possible. I ask them to indicate who they are directing their question to. We will begin with Senator Byrne.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Go raith maith agaibh. This has been a very useful discussion. I quite like Mr. O'Connor's line about archiving being slow and my question is the extent to which we may be able to use AI to archive some of this material. I asked the question earlier around intellectual property rights and how this can be accessed. I am very drawn by the idea of the creation of a sovereign large language model that individuals can use to draw on materials. I am conscious there is material out there that is being used by people already anyway and it is being fed into large language models. We can talk all we want about protecting copyright and so on but this is happening. One issue is critical. This comes back to Dr. O'Dell's point about ensuring we can maintain truthful sources and evidence and applies as much to music as to the written or spoken word. This is probably a slightly bigger question. In the AI and digital age, how can we ensure that those archives continue to be available but also how do we protect their integrity? I apologise; that may be too big question for four minutes.

I am happy to let Mr. O'Connor respond.

Mr. Liam O'Connor:

There are risks and rewards with everything. In the context of AI, we are in a period of unprecedented technical revolution and the opportunity to safely access information in RTÉ's archive is particularly valuable to the State and our citizens. Our political and social stability is fantastic. However, the risk or the flip side of that is if bad actors have access. We only have to look across the water to the British Library and access to its digital assets. It is very important that it is fully resourced. If we had a magic wand and made everything accessible to the public, it would also be accessible to bad actors. It is essential to fully resource the RTÉ archive so that it is at the forefront of protecting the State's interests. The point is well made. I am sure other experts on this panel would be better placed to comment on the other AI considerations.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Would Ms Ní Charra like to respond?

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

Yes. There are several parts to this. We need to consider where AI slots in, the fact that it is constantly developing and the work that would need to be done before that, in the first place. Mr. O'Connor mentioned risk and with an awful lot of the archives, until they have been digitised in the first place, we do not know what material is there. This is a huge risk. Having these obligations in place, whatever way that is done, is all about being in a position to protect material before it is too late. AI can possibly be of use down the line when we are trying to broaden the metadata that is attached and we heard Ms Dooley from RTÉ talking about that earlier. That is where AI comes in. It may end up helping down the line in terms of copyright and all of that but the essential stage that has to happen first is knowing what material we have and making it safe. Legislation like this is absolutely vital, regardless of whether it remains in this format or is amended or improved. That has to happen first.

In the context of RTÉ, there is a wider issue involving TG4 and other archives across the country that feed in, some of which are in individual production companies. In general, there is a huge danger in this country at the moment, because of the underfunding of the sector, that material is disintegrating or being deliberately destroyed before we know what is there, what we have and before we can take it further.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will be very quick because I have to leave to chair another meeting at 3 p.m. The Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023 is concerned with the RTÉ archive. I have a simple question for our guests. Has RTÉ ever refused any of them when they have sought access to its archives? RTÉ has made the archives available to universities and colleges. Has it ever refused access?

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

No, but it could. It could absolutely insist on its copyright rights and refuse. It is the fact that it can refuse and that the Copyright and Related Rights Act can prevent access that makes this particular Bill so important.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. O'Dell not agree that RTÉ is the one with the copyright and that it needs some protection? It cannot just make this material freely available to everybody. There have to be some rules and regulations. Dr. O'Dell answered the question very honestly and I thank him for that but to be fair, RTÉ has made its archives available. Why is this Bill necessary? I am asking the question because I want our guests to convince me that it is necessary.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

It is necessary because we cannot rely on the kindness of RTÉ. We cannot rely on the kindness of strangers. The point about the way in which copyright is enforced is that when it is in place, there is always the temptation to enforce it. RTÉ could just as easily say "No" as say "Yes". Imposing a function or an obligation to ensure that this kind of access can happen ensures the greater public interest, as it is described in the Bill.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Dr. O'Dell is a professor in a university. I am sure there is sensitive information that the university does not want made freely available and that it wants to have control over, and rightly so because it is the university's information. Does he not think that RTÉ is the same? To be fair to Dr. O'Dell he answered the question and said that RTÉ has never refused a request for any information. I wonder why this legislation is necessary. What would Dr. O'Dell think if we brought in legislation to make every bit of information in his university freely available to the general public? I am sure there is very sensitive information that he would not want to be freely available.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

With respect, Deputy, that is the case under the freedom of information, FOI, regime. That regime contains a whole range of exceptions to the benefit of the party to whom the application is made and the same kinds of obligations would apply here. For example, the sensitive personal data to which the Deputy has referred, is already protected by the GDPR. We could not give it out and RTÉ could not do so either. The distinction that I sought to draw in my submission was between content in respect of which RTÉ is the author and third-party content that it has simply licensed, perhaps on an extensive basis, to ensure that it is not transferring or publishing data that third parties already own. It is only in respect of the data that RTÉ has in its archives that is not otherwise precluded from publication that this kind of Bill would apply. A lot of it would be parallel with the kinds of things that the FOI legislation already imposes on the university sector.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I raised that earlier, if Dr. O'Dell was listening to the debate.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

Yes, I heard the Deputy earlier on.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would say that the FOI legislation is the not the best that was ever introduced. I know Deputy Costello disagrees with me but-----

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

I have to say that I agree with Deputy Costello on this.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course Dr. O'Dell does. Why would he not? Freedom of information is necessary and essential but the kind of rubbish that is going on out there with it now is outrageous. No disrespect to Deputy Costello but if he was in a busy constituency office he would know all about freedom of information requests every single day. That is all I can say. In relation to this legislation, I am not for it or against it; I am only teasing out why we should or should not progress it. Dr. O'Dell has not convinced me, to be honest.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

Could I take up that last point and say that it is not a million miles away from Senator Malcolm Byrne's point. There will always be people who breach the legislation. There are people who speed notwithstanding our road traffic laws but the mere fact that people speed is not a reason not to have our road traffic laws. The mere fact that somebody might use AI to abuse the data is no reason not to have access to it. The mere fact that people abuse FOI is no reason not to have it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not about the abuse of freedom of information. This is about an entity that owns material and has copyright. Dr. O'Dell and everybody else want that to be freely available and yet their own organisations might not make the information in their own archives freely available to people who may want it. Maybe they should be opened up to everybody.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

Anything the Deputy wants from the Trinity Library, he is entitled to.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what Dr. O'Dell says but it is not as simple as it seems. If we are going to open up archives under this legislation, then the contents of any and all archives should be made freely available to everybody.

Dr. Eoin O'Dell:

The Deputy will get no disagreement from me on that.

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

I just want to follow up, if I may. I agree with Dr. O'Dell but I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. The legislation talks about making everything available but only within regulations. Nobody wants anybody breaking laws here. This is a really important point, whether it is freedom of information or copyright law. In the work that archivists do at the coalface, all of the time, we have to comply with the law. That is not what we are looking at here. What we are doing here is trying to open up as much access as possible within the limitations of legislation and regulation.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not disagree with that once it is not abused.

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

Once it is not abused but-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is the problem. Where does it start and where does it stop? The Freedom of Information Act is very good but the way-----

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

We need to park the FOI point at this stage.

We have reiterated the same point a few times. Deputy Costello, Dr. O'Dell and myself agree with it. Freedom of information is particular legislation as is copyright and GDPR. There is a finite limit to which resources are there. I understand the danger the Deputy sees and that this would open floodgates. At the end of the day, the person dealing with the access request in the first place can shut down that conversation once there is a transparent reason something is not accessible. It is our job to make that clear. It is a very different thing to say a person cannot access any of it as opposed to saying they can access most of it, other than the parts that cannot be opened due to various legislation. That is transparent. It is a very easy answer for us to give once we have the back up of knowing we have done our homework at our end, which has been resourced in the first place. I hope that clears it up.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I have to leave. I am going to another meeting, so do not think I am walking out.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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They will not take it personally, Deputy Ring.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to have to go.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for being here and for his contribution. Does Deputy Ó Snodaigh have any questions?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do. I apologise for not being here. I had another meeting. That is the nature of the place.

I am very supportive of the intention of the Bill. To follow up on what was mentioned regarding copyright and residuals, RTÉ has a lot of material. We all want to see, and have access to, as much of the content it has. It is the author of it, although we, the public, paid for it. I refer to where there is an ongoing dispute or there is not open copyright. Anyone of my era will remember "The Spike", which all of a sudden disappeared. I still want to see the last episode of it, although not the one which was pulled off the air. There were one or two more episodes due. "Strumpet City" was another absolutely brilliant production produced by RTÉ, although maybe it was produced on licence; I do not remember. There is a dispute concerning "Strumpet City" where the actors were paid for a one-off, or there were no residuals or whatever. That can still be made available through an archive but it must be very restrictive to ensure nobody can abuse it. That is where the regulations must be very tight in order that people cannot willy-nilly reproduce it. It is no different from the Book of Kells, which has been copyrighted. I do not know how you copyright something so old, but it has been copyrighted.

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

A Pandora's box.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is about ensuring the archive is not abused, no more so than any of the other archives. That is what people are concerned about. There are different elements to it. Most of what we are talking about is what was broadcast and what was gained in advance of those broadcasts and anything that is available. There is other material. Only recently I put together a full archive for Club Chonradh na Gaeilge, which temporarily closed in the last few weeks. Everything from day one was collected, including all of the minute books and so on. Nobody will look at that, although maybe somebody will. It has been sent to the Galway library and some poor archivist there is going to have to-----

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

Me.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have more by the way, just in case.

Ms Niamh Ní Charra:

I thank the Deputy.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is about finding what is interesting to people and trying to make sure it is in the one place and that whatever we produce does not cause the problems Deputy Ring mentioned. I presume that in other jurisdictions, there is similar open access to archives of broadcasting or large corporations. If it is put out there, somebody has to deal with the applications for reproductions and so on. If it is done properly, it can pay for itself. I am supportive of it.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The floor is open to Deputy Costello, if he so wishes. He has four minutes.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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There are issues with making an archive available. There are issues with building an archive, as Deputy Ó Snodaigh is finding, and there is an issue with maintaining an archive, as we heard from RTÉ and ARA Ireland. There are practical issues. However, they are being dealt with every day. This Bill is not creating new problems. We need to remember that and to focus on what this Bill can achieve.

There was talk of a need for a cost-benefit analysis but we have heard quite a few of the benefits and they are quite intangible and difficult to monetise for a cost-benefit analysis. Some of it is about opening up a vein of social of history and I do not think you can ever put a monetary value on that. It is support for the public realm, for pushing back against misinformation and for good information. All of those things are hugely beneficial but we cannot necessarily put a cost on them.

One of the things coming up is the need for more resources, which we absolutely need. This legislation does not create that resource demand; it is there already. What this legislation does is to give a lever to get access to the required resources. For example, legislation that puts an obligation on the director general of RTÉ are the various pieces of health and safety legislation. If RTÉ needed some important health and safety infrastructure development, nobody is going to deny it the money as it has to have it in law. When it becomes a legal obligation, the demand for those resources and the need to provide those resources is strengthened. The sustained commitment that we need will only be realised in real life if it is there in black and white in legislation. If it is not, we are relying on goodwill. I go back to what was said about relying on the kindness of strangers. If everybody agrees with the spirit of opening up these archives, then this is the way to do it because otherwise it is just not going to happen. There may be things that can be ironed out by way of Committee Stage amendments.

There are different models. The broadcasting authority in England was referenced. In Switzerland and Holland, there are amazing resources to do this work. We can learn. It was said in the earlier session that we are on a par with other public service broadcasters. I do not want to be on a par with them; I want to be leading them. There are others ahead of us, so let us copy them and push ahead. The only way we are going to enable that to happen is by baking it into legislation.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is a nice wrap-up to our deliberations today. I thank our witnesses for being with us and for being so helpful in sharing their information and experiences with colleagues. That concludes this section of our meeting.

Members will note that the committee will engage, as agreed, with the Library and Research Service and the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Advisers on the Bill. The joint committee will subsequently consider all the information available to it and draft its report in accordance with the scrutiny process outlined in the memorandum of understanding between the Government and Dáil Éireann on Private Members' Bills. Members will know that the report of the joint committee is separate from the recommendation of the Bill itself, which is a matter for the select committee. We are now going into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.