Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 9 October 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine
Issues Impacting the Fisheries Sector and Aquaculture: Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine
5:30 pm
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Paul Daly and Deputy Kehoe. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is substituting for Deputy Martin Kenny.
Please turn off your mobile phones for the duration of the meeting.
I bring to the witnesses' attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence against any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as does a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of Members participating online in committee meetings when the participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts, and any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.
The agenda for the first session of today's meeting is to examine issues impacting the fisheries sector and aquaculture. The committee will hear from officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Ms Sinéad McSherry, assistant secretary, seafood and the marine; Ms Anna O'Sullivan, head of the sea-fisheries policy and management division; and Ms Suzanne Brennan, head of the marine programmes division, joining remotely. I will allow you five minutes to read your opening statement and then we will proceed to a question-and-answer session. I call Ms McSherry.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I thank committee members for the invitation to speak to them today. The Cathaoirleach has introduced me, Sinéad McSherry, and my team, Suzanne Brennan and Anna O'Sullivan. The committee has identified quite a number of issues and I will speak briefly to them now, after which we will be happy to discuss any particular items of interest.
The first issue the committee mentioned was an integrated hub for industry. The Department, with the Minister, meets regularly with the industry in the context of specific negotiations and issues. In addition to those meetings, today the Minister hosted a stakeholder meeting on the sustainability impact assessment for fishing opportunities 2025, and as recently as last month we met with the industry at official level on the Government actions to support a national framework agreement between the seafood and ORE sectors. These were very productive meetings. Prior to the intense engagement that took place with industry in recent years in the context of Covid-19 and the seafood task force, the Department has supported a sea-fisheries liaison group. Recently, I have spoken to a number of industry representatives. It is likely an opportune time to resume those meetings of the group quarterly. We will engage with the industry on that.
In respect of the changes caused by Brexit, as the committee knows, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement has had a significant negative outcome for Ireland's fishing fleet, the wider seafood sector and coastal communities depending on the seafood sector in a number of respects. The Irish fleet has lost access to 15% of its annual quota, mainly affecting pelagic stocks; prawns, or nephrops; and whitefish, such as megrim, monkfish and haddock.
Irish seafood exports to the UK, which were worth €80 million pre-Brexit, have been severely impacted while Irish seafood imports from the UK, worth €219 million pre-Brexit and a key input to the Irish retail and processing supply chain, have been disrupted. Vital seafood export routes, primarily the land bridge via the UK, have been disrupted.
Significant support has been provided for the sector in recent years on foot of the recommendations of the seafood task force and funded under the Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, with just over €250 million provided to the sector in direct and indirect supports.
The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, continues to pursue opportunities for Ireland to increase fishing opportunities where possible. At the Agriculture and Fisheries Council last December, the Minister secured additional mackerel quota share for Ireland worth approximately €3 million annually. This additional quota share is the first ever increase in mackerel quota.
The Minister has consistently called for the European Commission to fully analyse and report on the impacts of Brexit on the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, particularly the impact on fishing opportunities as a result of the quota transfers under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Earlier this year, former fisheries Commissioner Virginijus Sinkeviius announced a commitment to undertake a full evaluation of the CFP. The Minister will consider how Ireland will participate actively and effectively in this evaluation. Supports have been put in place by the seafood development programme. These are schemes that are co-funded by the Exchequer and the European Maritime Fisheries and Aquaculture Fund. These will continue to build on those schemes funded under the BAR, in particular supports for capital investment in seafood processing to support new product development and creating added value, ensuring that maximum use is made of all landings.
On wind farms and marine conservation areas, the process for planning and developing offshore wind capacity in Ireland comes under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. That Department has engaged with the fishing and seafood sector in the context of preparing the State’s first draft of the designated maritime area plan for offshore renewable energy, ORE. From a fisheries perspective, the Department welcomes the draft plan’s emphasis on maximising opportunities for coexistence between commercial fisheries and ORE, as well as the definition of specific policy objectives to facilitate this. The Department also welcomes the commitments given in respect of continued and regular engagement with fishers and the wider seafood sector during the lifetime of the draft plan. In particular, it welcomes that the draft plan highlights the need for continued engagement with inshore fishers and the owners of smaller fishing vessels, given the limited spatial data available regarding the locations of these operators’ fishing activities. We believe the development of clear guidance by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications for developers regarding the development and implementation of fisheries and aquaculture management and mitigation strategies would be useful and would assist with improving both understanding and confidence in this process.
Our position has consistently been to reiterate the importance of all aspects of the implementation of this draft plan and of future designated maritime area plans being informed by the underpinning principles of avoid, minimise and mitigate, which are set out in the national marine planning framework.
As regards marine conservation areas, there is already an established process in place for managing certain inshore fisheries that are located in Natura sites. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is in the process of preparing the marine protected areas Bill. However, this Bill has not yet been published. As a result, it is not possible to comment further.
On actions to mitigate the volatility of the Irish fleet, the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, ICES, scientific advice is the basis for setting total allowable catches, TACs. While there is improvement in the state of many stocks, some fish stocks are still in a vulnerable state. Ireland is fully supportive of following the scientific advice when configuring TACs on the basis of this advice. However, the Minister has always taken a strong position on not accepting reductions in excess of the ICES advice and making fully use of maximum sustainable yield ranges where possible.
ICES has advised zero catches for some stocks. As these stocks occur in mixed fisheries, setting the TAC at zero would close the entire fishery, even for the stocks with positive advice. Therefore, it is necessary to find a balance between the potential for severe socioeconomic impacts and the need to achieve good environmental status for stocks. In such cases, bycatch-only TACs have been set to prevent a choke situation in mixed fisheries while also minimising the pressure on the stock to help support its recovery.
The next item on the committee's agenda is the upcoming negotiations with Norway. The Minister has repeatedly raised concerns regarding Norway’s actions in setting excessive and unsustainable mackerel quotas and the need for the EU to take action to protect this important stock. The recent ICES advice for mackerel for a 20% reduction compared with last year highlights the need for the coastal state parties to reach comprehensive sharing agreements to protect this important stock.
The Minister has been clear on the need for the EU to adopt a strong position to protect our shared stocks. The Commission recently published a proposal to amend the 2012 regulation on measures to address unsustainable fishing of shared stocks by non-EU countries. This is a welcome step that underlines the EU’s commitment to the sustainable management of fish stocks.
The next item is schemes for fishers, supports for fishing businesses in rural areas and a sustainable funding model for industry. The Minister has announced the opening of eight schemes in recent months, of which six support the Irish fleet directly. Three of these specifically support the inshore fleet. These schemes are developed and provided under the seafood development programme. The European Maritime Fisheries and Aquaculture Fund, EMFAF, and related Exchequer co-funding is the primary funding package for the Irish fleet and the commercial seafood sector. In addition to the schemes designed to support producers and processors directly, supports will also be provided for community-led local development implemented by the fisheries local action groups, FLAGs, to support economic diversification. This continues the funding provided under the Brexit blue economy enterprise development scheme and the FLAGs scheme under the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, EMFF.
On inshore fleet access to pelagic stocks and the hook-and-line mackerel fishery, the management arrangements for the State’s fisheries, including the mackerel fishery, have been set and developed over many years since the commencement of the Common Fisheries Policy and the introduction of quotas. Pelagic stocks such as mackerel are managed on an annual or seasonal basis, with catch limits set based on allocation regimes developed over many years and related to historical catch records. Amendments to the mackerel policy in 2010 and 2017 were introduced following a full review and public consultation. The 2017 policy is currently subject to a legal challenge in the courts.
The allocation of 400 tonnes for a fishery for vessels under 15 m in length overall fishing exclusively by means of hook and line was set down in policy in 2010. In order to amend mackerel policy, the Minister must be satisfied that there is satisfactory evidence of changed circumstances to justify a policy review. If the Minister were to consider there is a case for review of any aspect of the policy, it would require due process, involving an assessment of all issues arising, including a full public consultation.
In Ireland, fishing quota is a public resource and is managed to provide for proper management, conservation and rational use of the State’s fishing quotas. It is managed as a public good which ensures that property rights are not granted to individual operators. The result of this long-standing policy is that the Irish fishing fleet involves a balanced spread of sizes and types of fishing vessels which have retained a strong economic link with coastal communities. Ireland’s fish quota management system is designed to ensure the best possible spread, both between fishing vessel operators and in terms of take-up of quota throughout the year, having regard to fishing patterns and market conditions.
On shellfish markets, while there was a downturn in shellfish exports in the latter half of 2023, which was partially offset by price growth, overall value of shellfish exports in 2023 was down. Indications are that market conditions are improving. There is no doubt that shellfish producers are facing ongoing biological, economic and competitive pressures that will require strategic adjustments to ensure long-term viability. It is important to recognise that trading conditions in EU markets are affected by EU policy regarding seafood imports from non-EU countries that are not subject to the same environmental and social standards as EU seafood producers, and there is a need for the EU to ensure that market policy supports a level playing field for EU seafood producers.
I hope this information has been helpful. Ms Brennan, Ms O'Sullivan and I will be happy to take any questions members have.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank Ms McSherry, Ms Brennan and Ms O’Sullivan for their opening statement. I have many questions, which I will try to go through as quickly as possible. I will start with the inshore sector because they were the first to contact me. I was at the AGM of the Irish South and West Fish Producers Organisation. I was invited there on Saturday and got quite a lot of insight into the issues out there, the problems many fishermen are facing and many of the questions they need answering. One of the questions posed to us at the end, which perhaps I should leave to the end, is: what can fishermen do to turn the negative feeling that is out there towards fishermen? It is easy for me to see that.
I am not taking issue with Ms O'Sullivan on this matter. The Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform spoke about everything in the budget last week, but they never used the words "fishing", "fisheries" or "funds for fisheries". I will ask that question again at the very end when the witnesses might be able to answer it.
On the inshore sector, the National Inshore Fishermen's Association wrote to the Minister in June of last year asking him for a seat on the Celtic Sea herring advisory committee. Last October, the association wrote again to ask for a seat. When the Minister appeared before the joint committee on 19 June last, he told the association that the matter was under consideration. That has been the case for more than 12 months. Has the Minister made a decision?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Will that happen very soon?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank Ms O'Sullivan very much. Have the Minister or the Department looked into a yearly financial scheme for inshore fishermen? The Department's ultimate role is to protect fishermen.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Yes. I am connecting it to the next question. The Minister announced money under the inshore assessment scheme, which was welcome. The inshore fishermen welcomed and appreciated it, but the amount that will be given does not come close to what is needed. There is not a crewman or inshore boat in Ireland that has not lost €10,000 a year in recent years. They are asking for a support scheme to be put together before Christmas for inshore fishermen in Ireland. They say a scheme must be put in place that will be guaranteed to compensate them for the difficulties they are going through. I might be talking about the pelagic fleet in a moment but the inshore sector is also suffering. Many fishermen have told me that the way things are going, they cannot meet their mortgages and they could lose their homes. We must look at the situation in the long term and see if a solution can be put in place for inshore fishermen.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
A number of schemes are open at the moment that service the inshore sector. Among the eight schemes that were opened this year, we have the inshore fisheries scheme, which provides targeted supports for small-scale coastal vessels. The lobster v-notching scheme has also been opened. There is a sustainable fisheries scheme and the young fishers scheme.
Most recently, the Minister announced the inshore fleet economic assessment scheme. Key to this scheme is that it is intended to support the economic development of the inshore fleet. From his interactions with inshore fishers, the Deputy will be aware that the data available are very scarce and perhaps inconsistent. We have worked with BIM, which is going to gather data with fishers on key areas, including market and economic factors such as prices, market access, supply chains, social and institutional factors such as transport, logistics, credit and financial services, a good deal of socioeconomic and demographic data and also on some of their technical and innovative practices. Fishers will be compensated for taking part in that exercise, which is designed to add to the information that was gathered in the 2023 census. The information gathered will allow us to construct and work on supports and services where we can most help inshore fishers.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank Ms McSherry.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Many of these guys are self-employed. They spend a lot of time out of the water due to various circumstances. Sometimes, they cannot go out perhaps because of the weather or if they are not allowed to fish for seasonal reasons. Have the team from the Department and the Minister worked with the Department of Social Protection to try to come up with something to bridge the gaps in income for inshore fishermen caused by the loss of fisheries? Given that they are self-employed, fishermen are entitled to next to nothing at present. What happens now? They are at home and they are making nothing. They are looking out the window, they want to go fishing, but they are not allowed for one reason or another. They are not allowed to sign on.
Many employees in unfortunate situations lose their jobs. After seven or eight months they are entitled to draw down money for a month or two until they get back into employment again. That is the case with seasonal workers who work in the tourism sector, for example. However, that is not happening here. The Department must work with the Department of Social Protection and draw up a scheme to allow self-employed inshore fishermen to at least draw down unemployment payments while they are out of work. They are asking me to relay that message to the Department. I will definitely fight that corner for them because they are unable to fight with the Department of Social Protection, which will not give them anything.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
This is an issue that was raised by the inshore fishers earlier in the year. We did engage with the Department of Social Protection on what was available to fishers. Many fishers compared such support from the Department with farm assist. What we have been advised is that there is a programme called fish assist that is available to self-employed fishers on low incomes under the means-tested jobseeker's allowance scheme. It is based on the conditions of the farm assist scheme. This information was supplied to me by the Department of Social Protection.
One of the key differences applying to the self-employed fishers is the favourable treatment of income through additional disregards. Under that scheme, gross income derived from self-employment is assessed at 70% and there are additional disregards in respect of dependent children. In addition, there are secondary benefits such as the fuel allowance that may be payable from the start of the claim. Again, that is subject to the relevant conditions. That is for the self-employed.
In addition, persons engaged in share fishing may also be eligible for jobseeker's benefit, depending on the circumstances. Again, that will depend on the class of PRSI. Additional needs payments are also available to cover essential expenses. The Department of Social Protection has recommended that any of the fishers in those circumstances should come to their Intreo office and engage with them. However, I think a scheme similar to farm assist is the direction in which the Deputy was going and there is a scheme called fish assist.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I know that, but self-employed people find it very difficult to get it. I will move on because I have a large number of questions. Could the Department tell us if it has tried to source better markets for crab and shrimp?
Ms Suzanne Brennan:
What I have heard reported back from Bord Bia is that it features brown crab significantly in its overseas marketing, in particular into the Asian markets. It describes it as one of its star stocks. I do not have an up-to-date briefing note to hand from Bord Bia but I am due to get one shortly. We can supply further information to the Deputy in that regard if he would like it.
I do not have detail on shrimp markets to hand. Bord Bia puts a significant effort into marketing Irish seafood, in particular Irish shellfish. I can get some up-to-date briefing on recent marketing efforts and pass that on to the Deputy.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank Ms Brennan.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The whole point is that we need to look for new markets. This is a serious issue for the inshore sector going forward. I would appreciate it if the witnesses could furnish me with some information. If we see where we are going, we might be able to work on that.
I will move on to pelagic fishermen. Their worst fears were yet again realised last week when ICES advice in respect of mackerel was to cut it once again by 22%. Why should countries like Ireland have to suffer further cuts when it has been fishing in line with scientific advice? The pelagic fishers were dealt a blow following Brexit when a 25% cut to mackerel was introduced. They were given a payment last Christmas equivalent to one year's loss for their lifetime loss of this quota. With ever-increasing costs, something must be done to help these businesses. Some of these vessel owners have made significant investments in renewing their vessels and have been dealt this hammer blow.
Why is Ireland not standing up and not allowing Norway access to rich fishing grounds off the west coast of Ireland in the spring of 2025 when that country's vessels will want to harvest 200,000 tonnes or 300,000 tonnes of blue whiting? When is there going to be a proper fight by this Government to actually fight for our fishermen? Ireland has slightly over 3% of the total allowable catch for blue whiting, at 68,000 tonnes. The vast majority of that stock is born and bred in our waters. Where is the backbone for Ireland to stand up in Europe and seek for zonal attachment for fish in our waters? Why can our Minister and our Department not make a claim for 30% of the blue whiting stocks and still be fishing within the total allowable catch? It is no different from what the Norwegians have done in the mackerel fishery. This is how the Brexit deal was done. Zonal attachments were used. Why can it not be the same when trying to protect our fishermen in rural communities?
That was the cry I heard last Saturday at the AGM meeting in the Maritime Hotel in Bantry. There is great anger among the pelagic fishermen and it is hard to blame them. They asked the question of why we cannot use a veto and why our Minister is never putting his hand up and saying he is going to use a veto. Another thing is whether our Minister, our Department and our Government are just going to sit back and allow the reckless overfishing by Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland? Why is the EU not putting sanctions in place to stop this? Will the Minister be helping out these fishermen with an aid package? Unfortunately, we are basically heading in this direction again. We were decommissioning before this and now it is an aid package we are looking for.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I thank the Deputy. I will first take the piece on the ICES advice published recently. It is extremely concerning. We spent the afternoon with the fishing industry looking at the impacts of this advice. Regarding the Deputy's question on Ireland using a veto, as the Deputy knows, the fishing opportunities regulation is a qualified majority vote situation, so we cannot exercise a veto.
On the EU-Norway negotiations, to be clear, the EU negotiates with third countries. Ireland does not negotiate directly with Norway. Regarding the annual EU-Norway negotiations, these talks basically concern a transfer of blue whiting quota to Norway to pay for other fishing opportunities the EU is seeking. Again, what is really critical for Ireland in this context is the level of access to EU waters and especially access to Ireland. We do not have an agreement on mackerel. The activities and overfishing of the stocks by third countries is something the Minister has called out regularly. Equally, he has called for the application of all the levers the EU has at its disposal.
What was a new development was the amendment to EU Regulation 1026/2012, known as the Faroese regulation, which was designed to address behaviour by states not engaging in sustainable fishing. Regarding Ireland's position in negotiations, the Deputy will understand this is a matter for the Minister. What he has been consistent in has been calling out and identifying the activities of overfishing and its impact on the stock and trying to work with other EU members in addressing these issues.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has 40 seconds left.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I see that, unfortunately. It is reckless overfishing by Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland. Why can this not be called out? Why can it not be stopped? I cannot answer this question.
I have one other question now. I have many more but I might be able to get back in later on. In fairness to BIM, there was great praise for the scheme to provide grant aid to do up vessels. The thing is, though, those with pelagic vessels who applied for the grant have not been told if they are going to get it. The applicants do get letters saying their application has been received. They are happy with the amount they will get when they get it - it is about 50% - but they have not been told whether they are going to get it. Many fishermen do quite a lot of improvement work to their vessels and do not know whether or when the grant aid is going to come. Does Ms McSherry know anything about this matter?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I appreciate that. I thank Ms McSherry.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Mac Lochlainn.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. I welcome the witnesses. I reached out to the various representative organisations. These include the fish producer organisations, the exporter associations and the aquaculture industry. I advised them that the witnesses would be here today and to give me their feedback ahead of the meeting. The responses make for sober reading. I will go through them. I think we might have another round of questions after this one, so I will go through as much as I can now and I will come back in again later.
I will start with Killybegs. I met recently with the departmental representatives at the opening of the extension to the harbour there. I again visited a producer factory while I was there. I am deeply alarmed at the state of the industry in Killybegs. This community in south-west Donegal built up an impressive industry through its own ingenuity and hard work. Thousands of direct and indirect jobs were created in the local economy in that part of the county. There is now a real crisis there. Hundreds of jobs have already been lost and I am fearful for several companies in Killybegs.
We really need to get to the point on two different levels. I am not asking the witnesses to respond because I am going to talk about the SFPA and it will have to respond for itself. We must, though, get to the point where the landing rules we have are consistent across the European Union. I have data here from the SFPA. We have not even got the figures for 2024 yet and I am really worried about what they are going to show. If we look at those for 2022, however, in terms of fish for human consumption, there was a decline from 141,000 tonnes to 82,000 tonnes. That is from 2022 to 2023. I think it is going to be even worse in 2024. By the way, that was a 66% decline in fish for human consumption. I am quoting from SFPA figures. It is pretty horrendous. We have a situation now where Scottish boats are saying they will not land there in 2025. The vessels of several other countries are already voting with their feet. Indeed, vessels based in that harbour are landing elsewhere too because they just cannot deal with the level of bureaucracy they face.
I visited a factory there several years ago. For the benefit of the Chair and the members, I do not know of any other industry that would put up with what I am about to describe. As the fish are going onto a conveyor belt they go through a weighing device. It is tamper-proof. It has cable ties around it, so it cannot be tampered with. There are cameras on the weighing device as well, and the footage is beamed directly to the offices of the SFPA. There is, therefore, absolute oversight of the weighing of fish as they go through the system. Representatives of the SFPA can land into the factory at any time and ensure the fish on the system are those going into the freezer. There is an absolute and complete level of oversight. Yet this is still not good enough and the SFPA still has these arbitrary rules.
The SFPA has a very important job to do. I want to be very clear about this fact. The authority has an extremely important job to do and we must ensure we meet our responsibilities under the Common Fisheries Policy. We do not want to see overfishing and a wild west situation in this area. This, though, is not what is being asked for. What is being asked for is common sense. As I said, other countries are voting with their feet. They do not face anywhere near this level of oversight when they land at harbours elsewhere in the European Union.
We must get a grip on this situation. We are killing our industry in that area. We had great news recently and it is a fantastic facility. I refer to the amount of money invested. People locally, though, wonder what the point would be of having a harbour if there are no fish to land. Are we just going to become a place for tourism and for cruise ships to land? Are we going to have a fishing industry?
I am asking for urgent intervention. How can we turn the industry around and work constructively to allow the SFPA to do its important job, consistent with the rest of the European Union?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
As the Deputy said, these are operational matters for the SFPA and I cannot comment on them, but I can speak generally to the processing industry in Killybegs. As he said, we met him there in September on probably the finest day of the year. On what we can do to support the processing industry, he said himself that we have built a state-of-the-art facility at which vessels can land and discharge their fish. The capital processing scheme under the BAR put many millions of euro into processors in Killybegs in the form of capital investments, diversification and innovation, and there have been some very successful projects there.
What is challenging the processing sector at the moment is the raw material, not in the rest of the processing sector, given it imports a lot of the raw material when it is not available, but the pelagic sector wants to depend on fish landed directly into Killybegs. There are a couple of issues there, as the industry has told us. A number of Irish boats are choosing to land elsewhere. There is an attraction for other fishing vessels from other member states, or even third countries, into Killybegs because the capacity and facility is there. Again, they are making business decisions based on price and cost.
There are a lot of things we can do, including working with the sector to promote its capacity to process. As for Ireland's compliance with the control regulation, the control function is outside of remit and I am not able to speak to the operation of that, but it is acknowledged the processing sector’s lack of raw material is seriously challenging it. The investments that have been made brought state-of-the-art equipment and capacity into those factories. It will be about working with the industry to attract other landings and, indeed, Irish landings back into Killybegs, because some Irish vessels are choosing not to land and that is a matter for discussion even within industry.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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We need to work together to find a solution to this. In the case of the BAR funding that was provided for producers, there were two schemes and under the capital one, €30 million was spent out of a possible €45 million. Under the transition scheme, it was recommended that €12 million would be sought but Ireland applied for €7 million. We could go back and forth on this, but to be constructive, we need to work together. Again, with full respect, the SFPA will speak for itself but it is well versed on the concerns. As a public representative, all I would ask is that we would have a consistent approach, with no incentive to go to another harbour and with a common-sense way of doing the very important job of policing that the SFPA has.
That is the first factor, and the second one relates to how we can get more raw product into Ireland. Deputy Collins has touched on this. The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, has appeared before this committee and expressed serious concern about the reckless behaviour of not just Norway but also Iceland and the Faroe Islands in respect of mackerel. Mackerel is a migratory species. It spawns off the coast of Ireland and works its way through the territorial waters of Britain into those waters in and around Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland. The practice in which those fishers have engaged is utterly reckless. They ignored the ICES direction and paid no price for it. The Norwegians get a massive share of the blue whiting in our waters under the deal they have with the European Union, way beyond what Ireland has. It is remarkable that our country gets a fraction of the blue whiting that Norway gets. They paid no price for their reckless behaviour, and everybody in the industry warned that we were going to see a decline in this species. This is a precious resource for our people and this was allowed to happen.
I appreciate that the Minister can speak in negotiations, but we have to ask what on earth is going on. The suspicion is that some member states of the European Union have major corporations with a financial interest in the companies that have been reckless, especially in Iceland and the Faroe Islands. The belief is that they have a huge influence on the Common Fisheries Policy and strategy at European Union level and this was not dealt with. The credibility of the Common Fisheries Policy is in tatters given the reckless behaviour of these countries. I agree with following the science. Sometimes fishermen will dispute the science and question the methodology, which is right and proper and fair, but ultimately, we have to have ground rules. We have precious resources here. They were moving through various waters and the behaviour was reckless. Now, the proof is in the pudding and the quota is going to be reduced. In the context of pelagic, that means we now have the double hit of Brexit and this reckless behaviour.
I will not ask Ms McSherry to comment on this because that would be unfair, but I will say out loud that I believe that the Common Fisheries Policy has no credibility as it applies to species such as mackerel and blue whiting off the coast of Ireland working their way up into other waters. I will just leave it as a statement that our Government and our country have to do more to speak out about the absolute hypocrisy and double standards at play here. It would be unfair to draw Ms McSherry into my commentary, so I will just leave it as stated.
On the issue of Ireland's reputation in the European Union, there is a view that we need to have a permanent base, and I am going to propose in our party's election manifesto that we would have a dedicated office in the European Parliament called "Fish Ireland". It would be a partnership of our seafood industry and our Department to go out and have two objectives, namely, to promote the sale of Irish food exports in fish and seafood and to fight for our fair share and speak truth to power. What happened with the Norwegians, the Faroese and the Icelanders and the financial control of some of that sector, particularly the new sector in those countries, by existing multinationals within the European Union leaves me suspicious. Were they acting in the interests of others? It was little Ireland, with the richest fishing waters, that suffered the most. What are Ms McSherry's views on having an office in the European Union, called "Fish Ireland", with a dedicated resource, working in partnership with the industry?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I note the Deputy's views on the credibility of the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, but to update him I might add that what the Minister has succeeded in achieving is an evaluation of the policy. He feels there are matters within it that need to be addressed, which reflects some of the Deputy's commentary.
Another item the Minister has proposed relates to having a stronger economic link between the member states' fishing vessels and processors within the member states. That, again, is an initiative he would like to pursue.
On the Deputy's proposal, what I can speak to is what we have within the Commission. We have a full-time counsellor for fisheries within the Irish permanent representation. Any proposal to enhance Ireland's position is interesting but is not for me to comment on.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in.
I have a few questions for the witnesses. What percentage of the fish of Europe are caught in Irish waters?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay, I will go on. The witnesses spoke earlier, and I was looking some things up on it, on the marine Bill or was it the maritime-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes. There will be designations twice the size of our landmass in this country by 2030. Is that correct? It is proposed that it will be 30% of all marine waters by 2030. My understanding is that two sites will be designated, of 3 billion ha. What effect will this have on fishermen or fisherwomen or fisherpeople?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know that but, with all due respect, I heard the witnesses' earlier submission. I presume, in all of these things, that the submissions put in by the witnesses' Department will include the consequences of some of these actions that are coming in the next few years, between now and 2050, including consequences for the fishing industry and the effects of offshore wind generation.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
Without the specifics of where you are going, what we do is important for our industry and it relates to the fact that in the context of many of these new designations there is a lack of information regarding fishing and where it happens, in the eyes of some. I am not speaking to any specific MPA proposal but it is important that anyone proposing to designate an area understands the impact that may have on traditional fishing grounds. It may affect be a spawning ground. There may be a misconception out there that all fish move. Nephrops do not move and scallops do not move. They live in the soft sediment. If you put something down on top of them or you designate an area, they are not going to swim off and go somewhere else.
The information that is provided on fishing activity will be key to making any of those decisions but those designations have to be considered in the context of the national marine planning framework. As the Deputy will know and as I said in my introductory remarks, it is very much specified that impact on fishing should be avoided, minimised or mitigated. Co-existence is key. The interests of the seafood sector, which has been fishing for much longer than many of these new concepts have been around, have to be taken into account. Equally, the information that informs that is much better when it comes to larger fishing vessels off the coast. The data gaps relate to near shore, for the inshore vessels, and that is proving to be challenging. We are working with them and the Marine Institute to try to look at better ways to present that data.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Would it be concerning to the Department if one of those proposed designated areas, which I am sure it is well aware of, was off the north-west coast, up near where Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is based, and another one down off the south-east coast, where there is a proposal relating to an area equivalent to 3 billion ha? Would it be alarmed if 30% of our area was going to be protected? Would it be fearful that this would have an adverse effect on the people who fish the area?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
We would have to consider what it is that they are trying to protect. That may not preclude co-existence and it may not preclude fishing, depending on what it is that they are trying to protect. Naturally, any actions that reduce the capacity to fish are concerning, but both the activities the Deputy mentioned, specifically the marine protected areas and offshore renewable energy, are also programme for Government deliverables. They are Government policy and we need to work with all stakeholders in trying to deliver that in a way that least impacts on fishers.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Ms. O'Sullivan have that figure for us?
Ms Anna O'Sullivan:
I do. We published a fisheries fact sheet in 2022. The Marine Institute and the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority provided the data for it and I can provide a copy to the clerk to circulate to the members of the committee. This was based on figures up to 2022. Approximately 530,000 tonnes of quota species were caught in the Irish EEZ.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With all the different countries coming into our waters, what is the percentage?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What would that be as a percentage of all fish caught around Europe?
Ms Anna O'Sullivan:
I do not have that figure. There was a lot of work done in the run-up to Brexit on the quantity of fish caught in the various EEZs, between Ireland and the UK, say. We have that available and I can forward it to the committee. That will probably cover it. If we do not have it, it is something we can probably check with the Marine Institute, which would have those figures. What I have here is the figure for the quantity caught in the Irish EEZ. I do not have a comparison with an overall EU figure but I think we have that available and I can follow up on that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am not going to say I am an expert on fishing but, when you talk to fishermen, no more than on all sides of it, with farmers and such, the amount of paperwork involved is one thing you will hear about. There is a scheme some people were offered under which they could cut up their boat. Why are we going down that road? When you look at the statistics on the number of people or the number of boats that were in Ireland ten, 20 or 30 years ago, for someone looking at it from the outside, it is an industry that has progressively fewer people involved in it. That is not a good thing, to be frank about it. Is there anything to make us more proactive in getting more people involved in it, rather than giving them money to cut up a boat and get out of it?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
First, the scheme the Deputy spoke to was the whitefish decommissioning scheme. It was a proposal of the seafood task force, which consisted of industry members and other stakeholders. One of their suggestions and proposals to the Minister to deal with the impacts of Brexit was to reduce the number of vessels in the fleet in order that fewer fishers would be trying to catch a reduced amount of quota. That decommissioning scheme was proposed by the industry and delivered on by the Minister.
The Deputy's second question related to the change in profile in the fleet. I do not have statistics with me but it is interesting to look at the type of vessels in our fleet. There is a fleet report done annually that gives the changes over time. We may have provided that in one of our previous attendances at the committee.
The next question the Deputy had was on introducing new members to the industry. Again, we have what is known as a young fishers scheme. It is designed to assist new members, fishers under 40. I am dealing with this from memory but I can send the Deputy details on the scheme.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the Department get many new members each year?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Thank you.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What about the paperwork?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What I am hearing from people out catching is that when they land at the dock or harbour, the amount of paperwork they are required to have is getting on top of some of them, no more than in farming. It is the same thing. Where does all this come from? The EU has addressed this issue for smaller farmers, even though the size that has been chosen means it will not make any difference in Ireland, although it might help smaller farmers in other parts of Europe.
They are saying they are going to reduce penalties and paperwork for a certain cohort. In my opinion, they should rise it up a way more. Is there anything like that coming from Europe to try to make things more attractive for people to stay at it?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
To take the Deputy's first area of comment, there is obviously an obligation on fishers who land fish, particularly those who want it to go into the food chain and on for human consumption. There are all of those requirements, which are a combination of the control regulation but equally food safety issues. That is paperwork that must be done. As far as I am aware - again, this is not something I can speak to directly because the SFPA looks after the control and food safety sides - there is a certain amount digitalisation under way. That is only going to increase across a number of departments. What the Deputy might be referring to is the simplification under CAP. I cannot speak to a simplification under the Common Fisheries Policy but I suppose it is something that could be written to with regard to the ongoing evaluation of the Common Fisheries Policy.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. They made a very comprehensive statement. I will address the update regarding negotiations with Norway. The European Union has changed slightly. There have been elections and there are new Commissioners and new bodies have been put in place, although I know the Commission is technically the same. Is there any indication of the views of the new Commissioner who will be involved in these negotiations? I realise it is a new appointment and there issues that need to be talked through. What are the timelines for the negotiations? I appreciate they involve the Commission talking to Norway and have nothing to do with Ireland directly. What potentially will we be looking at if or when there is movement in the European Commission's talks with Norway?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I ask the Senator to bear with me. I am trying to find my sheet with the negotiations timetable on it. The first round of negotiations between the EU, UK and Norway will be held in Brussels between 4 and 7 November. There will be another round between 25 and 28 November in Oslo. On the EU-Norway negotiations, the first round will be held from 28 to 31 October in Oslo, and the second round will be held between 18 and 21 November in Madrid. Those are the formalities around the negotiations and the timelines.
With regard to the new Commissioner, the appointments are within the process and the system. The biggest issue with regard to the EU and Norway will arise from the impact of the advice this year on mackerel. It speaks not only to Norway but a number of third countries and their activities. The tone across member states is that they are very concerned. As I said, we just spent the afternoon with our own industry looking at the impact of this. The Commission has taken a hard line with regard to calling out and identifying the activities of third countries. Equally, there are strong calls across the board for the Commission to take action in whatever way it can, including in respect of certain trade actions, to combat the activities. These are very much political pieces and decisions but that is the mood.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Who is the fisheries Commissioner and what remit will they have? It was Mr. Sinkeviius previously, was it not?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
There is a nominated - I need to get this right - oceans and fisheries Commissioner. It is a Cypriot whose name I do not know. I do not have it with me. The mandate, briefly, is very much around fisheries in the context of food security and marine ecosystems and sustainable fishing with partners.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the inland fishery fleet and the mackerel issues, I remember the debate in 2017 when we had fishing communities from different sides of the country tearing each other part regarding where the mackerel quota should go. We had a review at the time, I think, by the Minister. That review has been in court for a period of time. We have no idea where that review is regarding the court.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It would be a political decision by the Minister to determine where the mackerel quota is going to go after a review.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I do not think we are really getting the message across. The fact is the profits of the industry have dropped by 83% this year alone. As Deputies Collins and Mac Lochlainn stated with regard to the inshore fishermen, the shellfish and crab industry has fallen through the roof. Fishermen are under fierce pressure. Processing plants are closing down around the country and thousands of jobs are going to be lost. Help is really needed. Fishermen are fishermen but each of them is also a small businesses. We have seen the way the Government rallied around small businesses when they were in trouble but it does not seem to be doing the same thing for fishermen, given the amount of help that is available.
One of the main issues we have is non-EU vessels operating in Irish waters without quotas. How can we do a deal or protect species when we have other vessels coming in and operating without any quotas? That seems to be ridiculous. What proposals has Ireland put forward to curtail these vessels in Irish waters?
My next question is rhetorical so the witnesses may not be able to answer it. It is Sinn Féin's policy to appoint a dedicated Minister for the marine. The complexities of agriculture and the marine are just too much, with Brexit and so on coming into it. That is an issue. I would appreciate it if the witnesses gave their opinion on that.
As Deputy Mac Lochlainn said, this is a fishing island, yet we do not have a member on the EU Committee on Fisheries. That is a scandal. We hit most of the headlines there ourselves.
On the negotiations with Norway, Ms McSherry said Ministers are not directly involved but the EU is involved. That means that, indirectly, we are in negotiations with Norway through the EU. The Norwegians, rather than using valuable mackerel for human consumption, are taking their quota and using it for fish bait and animal feed. That is scandalous and that is what we are up against. What is Ms McSherry's view on that?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I thank Deputy Mythen. I may not have been clear on the negotiations piece so I will comment on that first. The EU holds the competence for those negotiations and naturally Ireland feeds into the EU position. When it comes to the actual negotiations, however, they are conducted by the EU. I want to be clear on that. Our Minister does make his views clear at Council level, however.
The Deputy mentioned Ireland being in a position to leverage certain things. It is but, to go back to a comment I made to Deputy Collins, we are subject to qualified majority voting on fishery matters, so we cannot veto certain things.
On the value of the mackerel and its use, I can understand why it would be particularly difficult for nations that do not have the mackerel quota to see mackerel used for fish meal as opposed to human consumption. An issue the industry has highlighted to us extremely vigorously is the inflated quotas of third countries.
I am not aware of the source of the profitability figure the Deputy mentioned, so I will not be able to comment on it. However, the processing sector is in a state of flux. It is a matter of raw material and being able to add value, and that is where much of the investment has been made over recent years. It is particularly a question of being able to get a higher-volume margin for the product, working with processors.
Could Deputy Mythen explain his question on third-country vessels fishing without a quota in our waters? Perhaps I did not understand it.
Having a dedicated Minister for the marine and an Irish MEP on the PECH are not matters I can speak about.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of non-EU vessels in EU waters, as far as I am aware Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland do not have any quotas but their vessels catch as much as they can. Is that correct?
Ms Anna O'Sullivan:
No. The only third-country vessels that can fish in Irish or any other EU waters are those from countries that have an agreement with the EU to do so, and only within the terms of that agreement. The UK can fish in the Irish EEZ because that is allowed for under the trade and co-operation agreement, which provides for the retention of reciprocal access. Norway can fish for a specified amount of blue whiting in a specified area. It is essentially in the outer part of the Irish EEZ. That is what was agreed in the bilateral EU-Norway negotiation. No other country has an agreement with the EU to fish in the Irish part of EU waters.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the UK receiving payments to allow other countries to fish in its waters?
Ms Anna O'Sullivan:
No. The UK has made a trilateral agreement with Norway and the Faroe Islands. It made an agreement with Norway last year and an agreement with Norway and the Faroe Islands this year. It allows them to fish for mackerel in its waters in exchange for a transfer of mackerel from the Norwegian and Faroese quotas to it. It is an independent coastal state, so it can make such bilateral and trilateral agreements without reference to the EU.
The EU has a bilateral agreement with Norway, for example, but it allows access only for blue whiting fishing in a specified part of the Irish EEZ. If there is no agreement in place, Norway cannot fish there. The EU-Norway agreement was not finalised until March of 2022 or 2023. I am not certain of which because of the passage of time. Until the time in question, Norwegian fishermen could not enter Irish waters. Those are the rules. One can pass through if steaming from one place to another. There is a right of safe passage. I am sure there is a term for it in the law of the sea. You cannot fish unless there is an agreement in place.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I have one more question about something that is puzzling me. We relied on Britain for much of our scientific data. British scientists were very good at producing it. Do they still share the data or is it no longer available to us?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We must suspend as there is a vote.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the integrated hub, the industry is asking for a dedicated official in Europe through whom it can have direct contact with the EU committee, operating as a liaison officer as such. Is it possible for the Minister to arrange that?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
It is not a position I am familiar with, so I cannot offer an opinion on whether it is possible, but it is certainly a suggestion I can bring to the Minister from this meeting.
I wish to clarify a comment I made. We discuss these matters all the time, but when I say that the EU negotiates, I mean it is the Commission that negotiates on behalf of the EU.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I have been asked to inquire into the €13.4 million that was allocated in the budget to the seafood processing industry. Was that part of a new programme or a reference to an older scheme that closed in 2023?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the officials from the Department. I will start at the back before moving forward. What supports has the Department given the shellfish market over the past year? It is being put through the mill, particularly with Brexit. How much of the adjustment fund was drawn down by Ireland and how much was sent back? That money was sent to Ireland to try to support fishers. Why have more fishers not taken it up?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
The portion of the Brexit adjustment reserve that has been claimed to date in the seafood and wider marine sectors is just north of €250 million. The schemes that were put in place came from the recommendations of the seafood task force. I do not have the exact number, but I know that up to €300 million was provided for those schemes, depending on draw down. The administration of the BAR fund for Ireland is a matter for the Department of public expenditure and reform, so the overall claim for Ireland is not something to which I can speak. From a fisheries perspective, though, our claim as of now is just north of €250 million, which has been distributed directly and indirectly to fishers and the seafood sector.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Most people in the shellfish market had to export through England into Europe, but Brexit has created a problem, given the barriers. What supports have been provided to help the market? The industry is in great difficulty.
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
Due to the changes that occurred as a result of the UK leaving the European Union, the traditional access routes were not available. Part of the funding programme, particularly as it related to inshore fishers, was to enable them to develop new markets and new routes to market and to examine the issues impacting on them and how those could be addressed.
The other changes that are taking up a great deal of time are the UK’s certification requirements on Irish shellfish. The Department, through its veterinary service, the Marine Institute and the SFPA, which has a role in certification, have been working with the industry on what certs are available and what the industry needs to do to be able to produce those certs and move its product. The situation has changed and some routes to market that were there previously are no longer available. For example, cockles were traditionally exported directly to the UK. Due to the new certification rules, they now need to be processed in the Netherlands and then sold into the UK. This is not something over which we have control. The SFPA, the Marine Institute and the officials in the Department have worked with the industry to find alternatives for accessing markets.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to be disrespectful, as Ms McSherry is answering the questions she is asked, but why has there been such resistance within the Department to hook-and-line fishers in recent years? Why will it not give a bit more quota to small fishers, particularly on the west coast, who are depending on it for their livelihoods? Ms McSherry and I know it is a difficult life and anything those fishers get is well earned. They should get supports. I do not know whether there is the same resistance in Europe as there is within the Department. To be fair to them, the fishers are saying that, if they get the quota and do not use it, they are fine with it being taken back, but they have been looking for quota for the past few years. Everyone knows that the larger fishers – the ones coming in with the big boats sweeping up everything – are cleaning up. Alongside our own, large fishers from outside Europe are coming in, but there is not much we are doing about them. We should be doing more to protect our own fishers. Not just the Department, but the Government needs to consider at national level why our fishers are not being protected. Why will the Department not give them a bit extra quota? They have been looking for it for the past few years. They are finding the going difficult. They are reasonable people. Extra mackerel quota has been awarded by Europe, so why could we have not given a small bit of it to the hook-and-line people?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
As we mentioned earlier, policy is a matter for the Minister. The hook-and-line mackerel quota was introduced in the 2010 policy and a level of 400 tonnes was identified for smaller vessels that were fishing for mackerel by means of hooks and lines. A key point to make is that mackerel is designed to be a high-value fishery, intended more for the artisanal market and direct-to-food markets.
As for the figures for landings in recent years, in 2022, they landed 165 tonnes; in 2023, 270 tonnes; and as of 1 October of this year, 203 tonnes of the 400 tonnes had been landed. One of the challenges the industry has indicated is that it is trying to identify a processor that will add that value and niche market aspect, which has proven difficult.
The Deputy asked what resistance there is within the Department. The changing or review of a policy is very much a matter for the Minister. We said earlier that in respect of the 2010 policy, there were amendments in 2017, which were the result of a full review and public consultation, and they are still subject to challenge in the courts. The Deputy identified the key issue with the mackerel policy. The 400-tonne limit does not change for hook and line, whereas when there are pluses and minuses in the general mackerel policy, that has an impact. We spoke earlier, for example, about 2025 being a difficult year for mackerel, but the 400-tonne limit will remain. The Minister has called on BIM to look at hook and line and what can be done to drive that value out of that product. Work was done this but more is definitely needed. We have also asked BIM to get Bord Bia involved to try to find the appropriate market to drive the value out of the 400 tonnes. As regards any change to the policy, I must reiterate that would be a matter for the Minister.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. Ms McSherry is not the Minister, to be fair, and I cannot say any more about that. Nevertheless, she might get the Department to consider other species that fishers could fish but are not allowed to. These people have gone through a very difficult time over recent years. This keeps a lot of jobs and people working and a lot of money in the economy, especially in rural Ireland. In many of these areas, there is just no other employment. What are we doing to try to keep young people in that industry? As is the case in agriculture, we sometimes forget that if we do not produce good-quality food that people want, it will be only when it has gone and something happens in the country from which we are importing it that we wonder why we ever let it go. It is like the sugar factories. We had our own independent factories but we let them go and started bringing in the product from Brazil and elsewhere. Is anything being done to try to keep young people in that industry and support them?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I spoke earlier to the young fisher scheme, which is about bringing fishers into the system and supporting them, but equally, a number of other skills are being trained through BIM and, obviously, the funding comes from the Minister and the Department. Those skills range from the processing and handling of the fish and basic fishmonger skills to the culinary skills that go with developing and selling good product, and a lot of those skills are being developed. Equally, on the aquaculture side, a number of different training courses are available, again to try to bring forward aquaculture operators in terms of their husbandry and the technology that is available to them. The Department supports a lot of innovation spending and training, through BIM, in aquaculture technology. This feeds into one of the issues we discussed earlier. Given the lack of raw material from wild catch, we need to try to substitute that with farmed fish, and those specific skills are being delivered by the State agency and funded by the Department to grow that interest and skill set.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My final question relates to the industry itself. I have noticed over the years that there are a lot of fishing organisations. Have they come together and are they singing from the same hymn sheet, or is there still the same level of competition between their representatives? The Minister will go to the EU between now and Christmas to negotiate again, and we all want to be on the same hymn sheet to protect the industry we have.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Democracy rules again. We have to suspend the meeting for another vote in the Chamber.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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As these two ladies have a very early flight in the morning, I will just give Deputy Mac Lochlainn five minutes.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I want to discuss the shellfish sector. We had a bottom-growing mussel industry worth about €40 million 20 years ago. This will be its second year in a row of zero. I want to get a sense of the plan the Department has to rejuvenate the industry. One of the big concerns is that even though the Sea-Fisheries (Amendment) Act was brought in following the Supreme Court case in 2017, it is clear one must be based in the North of Ireland to avail of its benefits. A person cannot merely have an address there, his or her business operation must be based there. Everyone agrees with that of course, we want there to be access to fisheries across the island of Ireland. However, the difficulty is that there are people who are abusing that circumstance. This is an Irish natural resource. I would like to have a sense of how the Department plans to deal with this issue, to rejuvenate our mussel beds and to get the seed they need. Will it work with those who are concerned? I know that Ms McSherry has had correspondence from at least one, if not two concerned parties and I can send that correspondence on.
I have been contacted by a company based in the south east. It is in serious financial difficulties. This is a company that historically was very successful in the oyster sector but it is now in serious difficulties. I will correspond after the meeting. I will not name it but it is based in the south east of Ireland and it has been corresponding with EU Commissioners, the Minister and the Department.
I seek an intervention so its case can at least be looked at to see what can be done to help it.
On the wider issues, there is a request from the IFA's aquaculture section for an allocation of €5 million to the rope mussel sector in the south west. That would cover Roaringwater Bay, Dunmanus Bay, Bantry Bay and Kenmare Bay with €2.5 million to be allocated on per licensed hectare pro rata basis before Christmas and €2.5 million on the basis of verification of decreased turnover using Intrastat and VIES returns. Looking across the shellfish sector, bottom mussel growing has been absolutely devastated. The whole fishery has been completely mismanaged. There needs to be urgent engagement with BIM on how we can turn that around and I ask that it happen. I ask that the officials assist the company from the south east in the oyster sector that had a thriving business and is now struggling. It is heartbreaking. I also ask the officials to note the issues raised by the IFA's aquaculture section. They are the urgent issues. The aquaculture section has made a submission on a range of issues in the industry.
The potential for the shellfish sector for Ireland is absolutely huge. The Faroese, whose population is only a tiny percentage of ours, have an industry in excess of ours. Scotland, which has the same population as the Republic of Ireland, has an industry multiples larger than ours and Norway's industry is on a completely different planet. We have never developed the potential of shellfish. We need to intervene, assist the sector and get the full potential for jobs and wealth in our coastal communities.
Then there is the inshore issue and the north west herring fishery. The inshore fisherman have asked why they are having to book in. It is an open fishery. They are not aware of any change to the regulations, but they are being asked to book in this year. As the officials know, there is a real concern when it comes to mackerel and herring. I argue, as Deputy Ring has done, that the share the inshore fishermen get should be much more than what it is. That needs to be worked out. The conditions are there. We need to sit around a table and work out what is fair to everybody. Why are they having to book in and why is the north west herring fishery no longer an open fishery?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I thank the Deputy. The Deputy first mentioned the bottom-grown mussel seed fishery, which is managed on an all-Ireland basis. There is a group that includes stakeholders, ourselves, the Marine Institute and that is chaired by BIM. It looks at the needs of that particular fishery. For the past two years, the scientific advice has suggested there is not sufficient biomass to harvest seed and that is a real difficulty, but the issue is it is a naturally-occurring seed and we need the conditions to be correct and we need to increase that. I am not briefed on this so the Deputy should bear with me, but I understand they are sourcing seed from Wales in particular. Again, conditions there and environmental conditions have been good and that has facilitated the sourcing of seed from there. I appreciate the fact the Irish mussel seed fishery has not been activated in two years because of the biological conditions is a concern, but we must manage it within the environmental guidelines that are there and when the biomass is not there, we cannot withdraw the seed.
The Deputy referred to an oyster operator. Naturally, if he wishes to correspond with us directly on that it is fine and we can do that.
On the submission from the IFA aquaculture section and the request for €5 million, the IFA has spoken with the team in the Department. We have tried to work and ask BIM to get some insights, information and data to try to assess this and look at what is possible and BIM is working on that. It is probably primarily Ms Brennan who has been dealing with that and if she wants to add something she can, but it is an item that is on BIM's agenda to try to get sufficient data to look at what can be done. The IFA has put a number on it, but in order for us to be able to look and secure some funding we need to have the data from BIM. On aquaculture development, there is a scheme there for aquaculture investment. I agree with the Deputy there is huge potential within the shellfish sector. The sector is predominantly maybe artisanal SMEs and it is trying to scale up with that. That is part of the strategic plan for aquaculture, but it is about doing that in an environmentally-sound manner. Those are working their way through, but given the size of the enterprises, it is about trying to bring them with us in terms of innovation and trying to scale up.
I will defer to Ms O'Sullivan on the inshore north west herring and finish by saying that unfortunately, any review of policy is a matter for the Minister, but we have noted it from today.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McSherry.
Ms Anna O'Sullivan:
On the north west herring fishery, there was a policy set down in 2012 that provided for an open fishery for the smaller vessels. Some 5% of the quota would be set aside for vessels under 20 m in length that did not have a qualifying track record in the fishery. Unfortunately, because of the vulnerable state of the stock between 2016 and 2022, the total allowable catches that were set were for a scientific monitoring fishery only. During this time, the 2012 herring policy was set aside and for vessels under 12 m that were not part of the ring-fenced group there were opportunities given to collect data samples in order to assess the state of the stock. Basically, authorisations were issued for those vessels in three different categories and a booking-in process and lottery were required if the number of applicants was more than the opportunities there.
In 2022 there was a request received by the Minister from the chairs of the national inshore fisheries forum and the north regional inshore fisheries forum regarding the north west herring fishery and to have the opportunity to put a management plan in place. In 2023 and again in 2024, ICES advised the stock could once again be managed as a commercial fishery. The TAC levels still have not returned to the levels they were at when the original policy was set down. When the 2012 policy was set down, it was expected Ireland would have a reasonable quota available to it, as had been the case in the years prior to that. The Minister decided in 2023 there were sufficiently changed circumstances to justify a review of the 2012 policy in relation to the quantity of herring set aside for the inshore fleet and launched a public consultation in February of that year. On the basis of the submissions received and analysis of them the Minister made a decision for a partial modification of the 2012 policy that when Ireland's quota for north west herring was less than 7,000 tonnes the 2012 herring policy will be modified and a set quantity of herring would be made available for non-ring-fenced vessels at a level of 350 tonnes. Last year it operated as an open fishery in the autumn and the level in that open fishery was exceeded, with 428 tonnes being landed in the end. For this year, in order to be able to open the fishery in a timely manner and to be able to manage it sustainably, the Minister's decision was to use a system similar to what was in place for the scientific fishery. This would involve the three categories of vessels and a number of opportunities within each that would require booking in and authorisations. The Minister's decision was based on managing the fishery as sustainably as possible and giving as many opportunities to people as possible and to allow the fishery to operate in a sustainable way so the stock can rebuild and be of use to everyone.
The Deputy is absolutely right that the ideal thing is for everybody involved in this to co-operate and work to build the fishery. That is something the Minister has addressed by establishing the north west herring advisory committee. Unfortunately, not all the parties have been able to agree on issues there, but the Minister has asked that all parties re-engage within that framework to be able to come forward with recommendations on how the fishery can operate, optimum opening and closing times, dealing with unwanted bycatch and issues like that which will allow the fishery to operate sustainably into the future.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Collins. He has five minutes.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Brexit has severely impacted the Irish fishing industry, affecting catching, processing and exporting. The loss of quota led to a decommissioning scheme resulting in the loss of 40 boats from the commercial sector. This has significantly harmed fish producer organisations in west Cork, especially the Irish South and West Fish Producer Organisation, ISWFPO, which saw its membership drop from 56 to less than 40. What supports do the Minister and Department provide to the affected producer organisations? What payments, if any, were made to the fish producer organisations that lost membership and faced extra work due to Brexit?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I am considering the question. The producer organisations memberships are set. They are recognised under legislation in the EU and they receive certain funding from that. I am not aware of any specific provision within the BAR regulation to compensate a producer organisation. I think that was the Deputy's point, is that correct?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The EU production and marketing funding has not increased in more than ten years despite rising costs. This makes the work of our fish producer organisations unsustainable. When will the Minister and the Department increase funding to account for the increased cost of living and doing business?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
The producer organisations scheme under the EMFF has been rolled over into this EMFAF programme. The conditions in which funding can be provided have not changed. I do not know whether the amounts have changed. The producer organisations are working with a team in the Department to look at a new scheme. I cannot answer on the funding allocation. I will have to come back to the Deputy on that.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I appreciate that. Do the Minister and the Department recommend that fishermen and women on Irish-registered boats be made eligible for a seafarers' income tax allowance similar to that available to merchant seamen and members of the Irish Naval Service? This differing treatment seems discriminatory. Is that the case?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Does Ms McSherry have any idea, or can the Minister or the Department confirm, whether such a recommendation was made in advance of budget 2025?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I am going back to the first question I asked at the beginning. I thank Ms McSherry for answering the questions to the best of her ability. What can fishermen do to turn around the negative feeling that is out there? I know Ms McSherry will say she cannot answer that question but it was the last question asked in Bantry the other day. There is a negative vibe in the world of politics towards fishing. What can they do to turn this around? Ms McSherry will probably not give me an answer that I want to hear. They asked me and it kind of caught me. I have always been vocal that we need a stand-alone Minister for fisheries. As I said, the question of fisheries got lost week in the Dáil, which proved what I am saying now. There was not a mention by the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Obviously, the Minister for agriculture and the marine mentioned it when he came to talk about the budget. The Ministers, Deputies Chambers and Donohoe, spoke about agriculture - and rightly so - and many other things but fisheries is not at the races. If it is not at the races, it is not in for discussion and there is no hope of an improvement or a future. Young people are walking away from the industry. They are leaving the sector and telling their parents to forget the hassle. The game is ran. Even politicians tell me that. I do not believe it because we are surrounded by water and our waters are full of Irish fish. God damn it, there is something wrong when we cannot catch our own fish. We are squeezed out of our own waters. How in the name of God are we going to turn it around? I realise it is a political issue. A stand-alone Minister was refused to me in negotiations in 2020. I was told there can be no Minister because that would have to come from someone else's area. A few days later, there was a super junior Minister announced for forestry; well done to them. Does Ms McSherry have any idea about that?
Ms Sinéad McSherry:
I think the Deputy answered the first part of the question when he said that I cannot speak to the political process or view. In terms of what the Department can put in place to support fishers and try to move them through this, there is the work of the Department, the services they receive from us and the work of our agencies such as the Marine Institute. The Department invests a huge amount in support of Marine Institute research, which looks at stock assessments and feeds into the ICES advice to ensure we have confidence in the advice we follow in relation to the TAC and the quotas. Equally, the Department makes a significant investment in BIM annually. A lot of its work follows through on Government policy in relation to supporting the fishing industry, promoting technological developments like gear changes, making better use of fuel and supporting diversification in the sector, not out of it, with multifaceted businesses.
On how the fishing industry feels about itself, I can only speak to what we see and what we are trying to do. Nobody can dispute the fact of the impact of Brexit and what we have been trying to do with the schemes we put in place to build on the capacity that is there. Equally, there is work to be done to attract landings to support the processing sector in having the raw material to process. The issue I mentioned earlier is the Minister's call in the CFP evaluation to look at the economic link obligation. That could be key. We also need to look within ourselves and within the sector at what we are doing to attract vessels to land. The Department has put superb infrastructure in place across the six fishery harbour centres. There is huge capacity and investment in that. It is about enticing vessels to land and discharge their fish in order to process.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I will make a final point which does not require an answer. From talking to inshore fishermen and to people in the pelagic sector, I know that they want to fish their way out of these problems. They do not want compensation. They just want to fish but they are not allowed in our water.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in this evening and giving comprehensive answers to all the questions. We will now suspend to allow the witnesses for the second session to come in.