Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for the delay. We have been delayed all afternoon and all evening. We will move to the second part of the meeting, which is on the action plan arising from the National Dialogue on Women in Agriculture. I welcome the witnesses.

I will deal with the matter of privilege, which is the legal part of the proceedings. Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precinct are protected by absolute privilege with respect to the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has full defence against any defamation action in respect of anything they say in the committee. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse comments should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who give evidence outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts and may take legal advice on this matter.

Our witnesses are more than welcome and we are grateful for their presence. I again apologise but there were votes in the Parliament. I ask Dr. Farrell to introduce the witnesses joining her and to make her presentation. There is a five-minute limit but we will not be too strict.

Dr. Maura Farrell:

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I am an associate professor at the University of Galway in the west of Ireland. I am joined by my two colleagues from the discipline of geography in the University of Galway - Dr. Aisling Murtagh and Mrs. Louise Weir. I thank the committee very much for having us. We are delighted to be here on an agenda that is very close to our research agenda and to our hearts as well.

I am honoured to speak today on a topic that is of paramount importance to the future of Irish agriculture, which is the essential role of women. For too long, women’s contributions to farming and rural life have been under-recognised, but today, we stand at a crossroads, where the need for inclusion, recognition, and support for women in agriculture is absolutely undeniable.

Irish agriculture, as we all know sitting here in this particular committee, has been the backbone of our economy and culture in Ireland for centuries and women have always played a central role in sustaining farms, families, and rural communities. Traditionally, women's work on farms was often categorised as women who were "helping out" or "standing in the gap" or was often seen as an extension of the domestic duties of the farm. Yet, in reality, women have been active contributors, decision-makers, and innovators within the agricultural community. Today, women represent a small but hugely vibrant proportion of farm owners and managers, with many driving advancements in sustainability, diversification and, indeed, the adoption of many new technologies which we very much need.

However, despite this thriving vibrancy, there are many barriers to women in agriculture. Some of those barriers are: access to land, finance and advisory education, which are often much more challenging for women than for men. Many of these women face social and cultural expectations that can limit their opportunities. This under-utilisation of the talent women have not only stifles women's potential but also hampers the overall progress of the agricultural and farming sector.

Irish agriculture cannot afford to leave women behind. It is well established that empowering women in agriculture generates significant social and economic benefits. Research, including our own EU-funded, Female-Led Innovation in Agriculture and Rural Areas, FLIARA, project, has shown that when women have greater control over farm resources, they tend to add value to the farm and invest in their families' health, education and their overall well-being. This, in turn, strengthens rural communities and fosters more sustainable development.

In particular, women play a crucial role in driving farm diversification, including agri-tourism, food production, crafts and rural businesses, on-farm education, workshops and organic farming. These farm diversifications not only boost economic opportunities and add huge value to many non-viable farms in rural Ireland, but also foster more sustainable agricultural practices in Ireland. In truth, greater gender diversity in farming leads to more innovative and resilient agricultural practices which help us to tackle some of the greatest challenges we face today, such as climate change, food security, generational renewal and gender equality.

The action plan arising from the National Dialogue on Women in Agriculture, which we are here to talk about, marks a significant milestone for women in Irish agriculture. It provides what we see for the very first time - a clear and substantial commitment to ensuring the inclusion of women and the active participation of them within the agricultural industry. What becomes imperative for us is that all actions are operationalised and, in turn, evaluated to ensure they are really the most effective approaches we can put forward.

To sustain this momentum generated by the action plan, it is crucial to implement targeted supports that fully unlock the potential of women in the sector. This includes improving access to mentorship, financial resources and educational opportunities. Policies that promote land ownership for women, ensure equal representation in agricultural leadership and create an inclusive rural environment are vital to achieving long-term, meaningful change.

To conclude my presentation, the future of Irish agriculture is inextricably linked to the full and equal participation of women. Their skills, knowledge and leadership are vital to ensuring a thriving, sustainable agricultural sector for generations to come. By supporting women in farming and agriculture, we are not just supporting individual farmers and the viability of the agricultural sector but are investing in the future of our rural communities and the entire nation.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Dr. Farrell and her team for coming here today.

It is a very interesting debate and one I called for. It is great to see everyone here. The opening statement began on the essential role of women in agriculture. I welcome it, the debate and the initiative.

I will start with something of a provocation in that I have always expressed concern that even in the very heart of policymaking in this committee there are virtually no women engaging. They are not on the committee. That is not to say there are not many capable women with a great knowledge of rural communities, agriculture, agri-enterprise and food production within the Oireachtas generally. I would like to use this opportunity to appeal to the people within the walls of this Parliament and the electorate generally that we should see greater representation of women sitting in these very rooms involved in policy. That is a matter for each party. We talk about quotas in politics and about participation and meaningful engagement by women, but somehow it is not reflected in this particular committee. However, a new parliamentary period is coming and it is something we should exercise our minds with. I would ask the witnesses to use their power and voice to stimulate a debate in their organisations and in farm organisations, which will no doubt be listening in here, because there is a challenge. I want to see more women on this committee involved in agriculture, food and the marine and in the expertise around that.

I acknowledge the National Rural Network, Women in Irish Agriculture and the profile of great women entrepreneurs in the agrifood sector. I thank everyone involved in that. I know Dr. Farrell was very involved in that. When we talk about rural voices, I am familiar with their Rural Voices online seminars which have been ongoing since 2022 and which have brought a renewed focus on rural issues at a national level. That, and what they are doing today with their advocacy, is key. I acknowledge the support of this initiative and of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, who is very much behind this in her portfolio of rural and community development and the national rural network and the synergies there.

We should mention that the Rural Voices seminar was one of the first of its kind in Ireland. My secretary, the Independent councillor to whom the witnesses were speaking before the meeting, Councillor Geraldine O’Donoghue, who is herself an NUI graduate in rural science and development, has engaged with the seminars and tells me of the enormous benefits she has taken from them. That is fantastic. People, especially women, because they are the focus tonight, can dip in and out of them.

Having looked at the opening statement, and I thank the witnesses for circulating it, a few things jumped off the page for me. There was reference to the need for inclusion, recognition and support for women in agriculture. The piece I am adding is confidence, because so many women in agriculture at all levels – agriculture, horticulture, food production, food science and all that – tell me about this thing of confidence. You gain confidence by experience and more experience. Will the witnesses touch on that? I refer to a few points from the submission, such as “women have always played a central role in sustaining our farms, families, and rural communities” and there is a lovely quote that those who are rural among us would know about “standing in the gap”. Everyone who was a lad in rural Ireland still knows the idea of the lads coming in to stand in the gap or help out. They have a meaningful role. Then there are the impediments and the barriers. The persistent barriers, in my experience, are the access to land, finance, education and, sometimes the oldest thing, and not necessarily because we are talking about females, succession. There is a conditioning growing up in rural communities about who the successor may or may not be. There is a winding road and many things go askew along the way, but that is important. Dr. Farrell has touched on something and we need a bigger conversation about that. I was talking to a family member the other day and we were saying how we do not talk about “the place”. We do not go there. That is forbidden.

Those are points I wanted to take up which very much resonated with me and which I understood. However, I was not fully aware of the Female-Led Innovation in Agriculture in Rural Areas, FLIARA, project. Will the witnesses talk to us about that after I finish my points? That is an important initiative. It showcases very successful women in agriculture and allied areas. It goes back to a question I want the witnesses to tell the committee about, namely, how we can manage greater gender diversity which leads to innovation. We must always be innovative and resilient. How do we develop the resilient practices around all of that? The witnesses are pushing an open door with me personally and I think that is the case with most people on the committee, but this needs to be a national conversation and debate.

Will the witnesses share with us their working relationship with the farm representative bodies as key stakeholders to get the message out? Well done to the witnesses. I hear loud and clear what they are saying. My appeal to the bigger grouping outside this room is that we need to mobilise and ask the political parties and Independents how we can have more women in this particular forum, because it is a critical forum in agriculture, and how we can use that to influence the political parties and none to make agriculture part of the bigger initiative of having more women in politics and the great initiative of participation and so on. It is a real, meaningful role and there is an eagerness for this to happen. Those are a few thoughts if the witnesses would like to respond.

Dr. Maura Farrell:

I thank the Senator. Those are some key ideas. For us, in driving this kind of an agenda it is a disappointment that there are not women on this agriculture committee when we are trying to represent those women and make sure they have a voice. However, it is not unusual. We have found this in many scenarios, where women are not represented in those agricultural communities and within those farm representative bodies, particularly at a level where their voice can be heard. That is something we would like to pressurise or in some way encourage at this very high level where we can see and for it to filter down to other organisations and committees along the line.

FLIARA is an EU-funded project. I am not sure if many on the committee have heard of Horizon Europe. It is funded by the EU Commission. FLIARA is a €3 million project which we are leading in Galway. I am the co-ordinator of the project and Dr. Murtagh and Ms Weir are both working on it with me in Galway. We have 15 partners across ten countries in Europe and we are leading-out on it. We are taking this exceptionally seriously from an Irish perspective as well as from an EU perspective. It is an agenda the European Commission is driving. It is driving it from a policy level in the context of our CAP strategic plans. It has put forward this idea of gender within the CAP strategic plans. Our project is looking at the innovative practices of women in agriculture and in rural areas. As part of that, we carried out 200 interviews across Europe of which 30 have been in Ireland. They are in the booklet the Senator just produced a moment ago which shows the 30 women we have interviewed in Ireland, of whom half are driving innovative practices within and on farms. We picked those women from an economic, cultural or social perspective that they might have a non-farm diversification. As we started to analyse our results, we started to see that while it may be an environmental project, these women were also having an impact on society. They were having a cultural or economic impact. Therefore we started to look at these women and see the value they were adding not only to the farm itself and its income but also to the broader rural community. We are leaving behind the idea of, perhaps, constantly harping on about the challenges these women have but rather looking at what these women can bring to farms and rural areas.

Looking at the booklet, it shows the number of initiatives these women are involved in, many of whom we have interviewed. In the wool industry, Blátnaid Gallagher in Galway has come forward with some huge ideas about Galway wool. Teresa Roche is an organic farmer, also in Galway, who has brought forward cheese making. We have a wonderful girl in Limerick, Eadaoin O'Connell who has 2 acres of land on which she has set up her on equine social farming industry.

I could go on and on about the number of women who have added huge value. We are coming at this from this from the perspective that these women are adding value. They are not women who are challenged and whom we need to help in some way. We need to overcome the barriers but we also need to support them for the value they can bring to rural areas.

Mrs. Louise Weir:

I thank Senator Boyhan for his comments. I want to pick up on one of the points he made about representation, which Dr. Farrell dealt with. All of these things do not happen in isolation. They are all interconnected. When we say we want women sitting at this table, making decisions on policy or on funding, it is also about barriers that will prevent the woman from being able to do that, such as childcare to let the woman come and be here. It is not equated with a lack of confidence. Not being able to come and speak here like we are is not a matter of confidence. It is about having the soft infrastructure in other sectors that allows them to do that.

In saying that, while sometimes we come to these meetings, easily identify barriers, what the issues are and what we should have, the message from us and from our project is that we have tools, we know the answers to some of these things, we have gender quotas, we have different governance structures we can put in place and we have a newly elected member in Romania who is a woman. She is the first in her community, because in fact she and another mother took charge of setting up a social enterprise. It is about engaging other sectors like social enterprise to set up the community centre. She then became voted as the first female ever elected in Romania, in her community, to become the voice. She is now the spotlighted person and becomes the champion for other women to show that we can do this. It is, however, a matter of all the other structures needing to be put in place and there are barriers involved in that. The take-home for us is that we have the tools to do it. We need to give teeth to the measures that are put in place. It is in the rural agriculture action plan. They are there and we just need the measures and tools to give it the teeth to make it manifest.

Dr. Aisling Murtagh:

I will add a couple more points to expand on what Dr. Farrell and Mrs. Weir already outlined. The key picture and message to take away is that women in agriculture are diversifying farms. In our work for the FLIARA project, we have done some analysis of existing policy. We particularly looked at the CAP strategic plan and the analysis of needs in Ireland. One key thing that jumps out is the lack of interest from the general farming community in farm diversification and the need for education and measures around that. If you look at women and the successful examples of women who are running farm-based enterprises, they are the ones who are diversifying and who have the skills to run farms and rural businesses. The successful people who are there are amazing trailblazers but there is an untapped resource within the younger, emerging farming community and people who have left rural areas.

This issue of attracting women into farming to a greater extent, as Dr. Farrell has pointed to, is a sustainability issue along with the issues of rural depopulation and rural jobs. It is about attracting these people back who maybe have experience in other areas but whose heart and soul is in a farm. There is so much potential. Can women access the measures that are there at the moment or are the criteria too strict? There is a whole body of work to make sure the existing measures in place are designed in a way that allow women to tap into them to the best of their potential.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. They are singing to the choir here. When I was 19, I put up mushroom tunnels, grew mushrooms and worked in horticulture. I spent many years working with mushroom growers all through the west and down into the midlands, and in many of those cases, there was diversification on the farm. In probably two thirds of them, the women ran the mushroom enterprise, and ran it well, because they had the skills of organisation and bringing people together. They were also excellent at keeping the husbandry right, because you had to be careful with disease prevention and so on. That attention to detail was important. I am not saying the men among us here are sloppy but we have that tendency to not be as adherent to making sure everything is done absolutely perfectly. I found the women who ran those enterprises ran them exceedingly well and brought significant energy to it. They also proved themselves in their communities. It was very much a community thing because they needed to get people from their local community to come to help to pick the mushrooms, so they had all that too. I am well aware of the untapped potential within rural communities of women on farms who are not utilised to the full potential they could be.

Dr. Farrell made the very valid point that there are no women on the agriculture committee. I actually replaced a woman on the agriculture committee. Deputy Claire Kerrane, our TD for Roscommon-Galway, was the agriculture spokesperson for Sinn Féin. Only a couple of months ago, she stepped away from that role and I took over in agriculture again. It left a bit of a void there. I know Deputy Kerrane worked closely with all the farm organisations. She had a particular focus on women in farming because she grew up on a farm and understands and knows it.

I am interested in the issue of alternative or additional enterprises on the farm. I refer to the mushroom idea that was developed way back in the 1970s or 1980s. The idea was that there were small farms that were not really viable with what they were doing and an alternative or additional enterprise would be put on them that made the farm viable and futureproofed it. The problem with that industry was that it got more and more competitive, prices got tighter, things got tougher, labour got more expensive as society became more affluent, and only the big ones could survive. There are only a couple of dozen mushroom growers left in the country now. There were hundreds at that time, with three, four or five tunnels each. The ones that exist now are large growers with 50 tunnels. That is the only way they could survive. They had to get bigger and bigger and the small ones disappeared.

To be able to keep the farm alive was the idea. When developing on-farm enterprises like that which women can be central to, which I absolutely know, how do you do it in such a way that you do not run into that difficulty and you can make sure it is sustainable and viable in the long term? I see a vote has been called in the Dáil. It is probably the voting block and we will be away for a long time. Will the witnesses respond for a minute and then we will rush off?

Dr. Maura Farrell:

For me, there are so many different ways in which this can work. First, why do women get into this at all? There is the issue of work-life balance and the viability of the farm. Women can look at that broader perspective of the farm and decide to take on something much quicker than the man on the farm because there is a difficulty in the male diversifying the farm and the social and cultural thinking of the local community on that, whereas the women look at the farm and say they need more funding and more money to put their children through college, and they will diversify the farm. Those start-up funds that we think are needed via the LEADER programme or the Common Agricultural Policy can start that business, but what is also important is the scaling up of that business. We often find that women run aground when it comes to scaling up, because there is not that middle ground of microfinancing and additional scale-up funding available to women. It is available in the broader sense to anybody but women tapping into that is a different matter. We have talked to many women who have gone to banks and credit unions for increased funding for businesses and were turned down based on the fact they were not the owner of the farm, the land or the herd. The idea of them not being the property owner disallows them from accessing the funding that is vital to scaling up that farm or scaling up the business on that farm. We found that it is not in any way due to an absence of ideas.

The Deputy mentioned the mushrooms. We came across many women who set up an on-farm diversification business and would sidetrack that business into two or three different businesses to make sure it was viable. You could have a woman who is looking at accommodation on farms and has also set up a small coffee shop or production and little shop on the farm. She has many ideas to ensure the viability of that business.

However, where she often comes aground is in the scaling up of the business and the finances required to do that. Availability of finance for women on farms can be a huge problem, especially if they are not the owner of the farm or the land.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, I have to leave for a vote in the Chamber. I thank the witnesses for their engagement over a long period this evening.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I have some comments to make. I will not speak for as long as the voting is taking place because that would be an exceptionally lengthy contribution.

This is a very interesting debate. If we look back to the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, the family farm model was based on something different from what it is now. It was based on a dynamic whereby the wife stayed at home, looked after the farm and reared the family. In my part of the world, I think of my mother and our neighbours, Mrs. Brady, Mrs. Foley and Mrs. Barry. That was the family farm model. The world changed in the 1980s and 1990s, with farming becoming a one-person operation in the majority of, if not all, cases. Without doubt, it was the male who stayed at home and farmed. Society totally changed. The lack of a role model of the female farmer became an issue. I have two daughters at home and my mother is still very healthy. The lack of a role model in farming has become a big issue. We must look to how we can promote farming and get women involved.

I have a question about quotas. When it comes to elections, political parties have a quota to reach that 40% of candidates must be women. That is very helpful to politics. When it comes to things like boards of co-operative societies, quotas have not been considered. I was very critical of the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, on the gender issue when its representatives appeared before the committee a few months ago. Organisations like that need to be looked at as a key driver to build role models. We need women in those bodies to whom people can look as a driver of change in our society. What can we do about looking at the quota issue in the context of co-operative societies, mart boards and all the way through to organisations like the ICBF? We should even look at this with reference to officials within the Department. We were blessed with the officials from the Department who came in a while ago to discuss marine matters. They are three exceptionally capable women. On average, however, that is not our experience in that most of the officials we deal with are men. Do we need to consider the Department putting a quota in place to make sure we have women at the head of agriculture? I was struck by Mrs. Weir's reference to quotas. I am really interested to see where we can go in that regard. What is her view on how we can promote the kinds of role models or leaders in our communities and society to whom my two daughters could look?

Mrs. Louise Weir:

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for coming back to this issue. It is a critical concern for us in trying to promote women's participation in agriculture. There are two parts to what he described. Even if quotas are implemented, there is an issue in that women may not come forward. That is a social construct we need to address. It is something that already really impacts women coming forward in agriculture. It is about identity. There is a question around what identity a female farmer has socially. There is also a cultural issue across all of Europe in terms of women stepping forward into politics.

Do I think the change should start from the top? Yes, I do. It should come from Europe and go all the way down to the bottom. However, to go to the top, we should start at the bottom. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is right that there should be quotas at a local level. There are different ways of doing that. In Longford, for example, there was a See Her Elected campaign. It needs to start at local level. If you see it, you believe it and you can become it. In our project for Female-Led Innovation in Agriculture and Rural Areas, FLIARA, we picked 20 female ambassadors from 200 interviews. These women are championing agriculture in rural areas, regardless of whether they are politicians, as I described earlier, organic farmers or starting a social enterprise. They are women leading within their communities. They are becoming community champions. It breaks the iceberg the Leas-Chathaoirleach exactly described.

It is interesting that he mentioned his daughters. We interviewed the Hastings sisters, who are farmer influencers. That world is for people younger than I am but it is important.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is a very important space.

Mrs. Louise Weir:

Yes, the media, the language and how we use it are important. When it comes to representation, to get at that social element, we need a language change. That is mentioned in women's dialogue and in strategic dialogue. We have to do that part right, we must get the media part right and we have to build capacity.

There is another part to consider. We are all of a generation that is used to a patriarchal society, for want of a better definition. Perhaps we need a bit of open-mindedness. We need to throw off the shackles of the gender biases of which we are not conscious. They are unconscious biases we carry with us. Would we vote women into the positions we are discussing? We have not seen women in these roles. Do we really believe they can do them?

There are many strands to this issue. There is the question of the training capacity of other people to invite women in and make that space. There is the quota issue. There is the need for community engagement at the bottom level. Then there is the education system. Should we bring into school curriculums the topics of women in politics and women in agriculture? There are so many strands. As I said at the beginning of the meeting, addressing these issues is complex but not impossible. We have models and there are approaches we can take.

Dr. Maura Farrell:

We have thought about this a lot. Mrs. Weir referenced the idea, which comes from a really good sports analogy a number of years ago, that if you can see it, you can be it. It is the same with agriculture. We need to recognise that the agricultural industry is a huge industry that is not just related to farming. It is about opening up the education system to show young girls in schools that the agricultural industry is one in which they can have successful employment. It is not just about seeing women within the farming industry itself but also within the Department of agriculture and the industry of agriculture, including the machining industry and all the industries that are related and connected to agriculture. That is hugely important. There is a whole industry in agriculture that we really should open up to young women and girls. Doing that will change the narrative and will allow young girls and women to see, as with science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, education, that this is a space for them. That is very important.

Regarding quotas, it is disappointing that there is no woman among the membership of this committee. What does that say to young girls? It says that this is a very male-dominated industry and space. That is disappointing. If girls and women do not see themselves represented within this space, they do not see something for which they can strive. It is a starting point to ensuring women are represented. One of the opening speakers noted that there are a number of women in the Dáil who are from rural backgrounds. We know them and I am sure they would be only too willing to sit on this committee if they were in some way enticed to do so. They can be a voice and a representative for the women within the agricultural industry and the farming industry.

Dr. Aisling Murtagh:

We can look to other sectors for lessons. Our research in the education sector has found a lot of issues around gender equality. We have gender equality plans now within the University of Galway. Most institutions of our type will have such plans in place. It is a requirement to access funding from Horizon Europe that we have a plan and key actions in place across our organisation. That could be applied to the likes of the agricultural representative organisations. However, one has to consider the effectiveness of a voluntary requirement. It might need to be tied into funding or something like that. In our research and policy analysis, we found an example in Italy of legislation being introduced to require private companies to have certain representation on boards. It is something that can be addressed through legal measures, if that needs to happen. There are international examples of where that is starting to be done. If I have the right example in mind, the Italian legislation was targeting private companies and boards more broadly. If something needs to happen in a very strict legal way, there is a range of ways to do that. If we are talking about a very serious issue, that is when we bring in the law.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Would the witnesses agree there is change happening but probably at a slow rate? Agriculture is a wide field. I am thinking of the veterinary profession and consultants and advisers, including co-operative advisers.

Looking at my own circle, change has come in the last decade. Where are not seeing the dramatic change is inside the farm gate. The majority of my vets are female, as is the agricultural adviser. We have a range of people who are female. However we never recovered from the women who left agriculture in the 1980s and 1990s. I mean women of my mother’s generation. That is becoming the issue, namely, trying to get that change within the farm gate rather than outside of it.

Dr. Maura Farrell:

If we look at the agricultural colleges, there are quite a number of young women involved in agriculture. We have a strong cohort of women involved in the agricultural sciences. In respect of transferring that back to the farm gate, with the FLIARA project we did look at the attractiveness of farming for women. We found that a sense of well-being is a priority. Through a previous project that we were involved in, the ruralisation project, which was another European-funded project, we looked at what attracts young people to rural areas. We saw that for young people sector, the idea of well-being is hugely important. Even though farming can be a very challenging, often non-viable industry, it is also an industry that offers women that sense of well-being. With farming they can work from home and deliver on-farm diversification and work with sustainability aspects, animal aspects or whatever they want and tap into well-being. There is therefore an attractiveness about farming that appeals to younger people much more so than it has in the past.

We are on that cusp of change that the Leas-Chathaoirleach did say is there. In many respects, the Department of agriculture should be given great credit for the way it has come forward with the CAP strategic plan. We did an analysis on the CAP strategic plans across Europe. Only five of those plans across Europe took to the idea of putting in measures with regard to gender. Only two included specific measures, namely, Ireland and Spain. The Department of agriculture should be congratulated for that.

We recently spoke with the European Commission and one of the women from the Commission talked about “pinkwashing”. She suggested we make sure that is not going on. We are not in any way suggesting that is what happened with the Department of agriculture. We congratulate it on the measures it has brought forward. However we need to make sure that those measures are stable going into the next CAP and that gender becomes part of the identity of the CAP strategic plan and of farming. What we see at present is the idea of a renewed interest in agriculture for women. The policies are there. The idea of potential CAP plans is there. There are measures for women being directed in the CAP. Let that be from our particular research perspective. The new European innovation partnership for agriculture, EIP-AGRI, has a call-out for women also. There also are measures in respect of the targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS. All of these measures add to the advantage of women being in there using this and being part of the industry. We are on the cusp of looking for this as a renewed interest for women in agriculture.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I must suspend for a time until the voting block is over. I apologise.

Dr. Maura Farrell:

That is quite all right.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I want to commend all the witnesses. I spoke to them earlier. We need to pave a way forward and show that there are lots of good things and lots of positivity happening around agriculture in Ireland.

We need to pave a way forward and show that there are many good things happening and much positivity in agriculture in Ireland. Unfortunately, women were airbrushed into the background for generations but we are seeing a change. Coming from the rural constituency of Laois-Offaly, I can certainly see changes. I have visited the local agriculture college, which is Gurteen in north Tipperary, and more and more young women are going in to do agricultural courses. There is a change. The project the university is running is very worthwhile. In fact, it is invaluable in empowering women, creating a platform and highlighting all of the positivity. I have been reading some of the contributions from the women involved. One of them is a constituent of mine, Anne Marie Feighery, who lives not too far away from me in Offaly. There are fantastic things happening. That is the only way we will be able to empower the next generation of young women and pave the way forward.

I commend the witnesses. They are doing fantastic work. They are really instilling confidence in women as regards leadership and everything else. Of course, there are barriers and we have to overcome those. I have no doubt that, in time, if we keep chipping away collectively, we will see a change. I dip into this agriculture committee. I am on the higher education committee but, every time there is a calamity facing farmers in Laois or Offaly, I end up coming in here. It is great to be in here today when there is positivity rather than a calamity in forestry or something like that. It is great that the witnesses are here. They are doing tremendous work. It is certainly very valuable and will pave the way forward.

We have seen many women taking up leadership roles. I have met Elaine Houlihan, president of Macra na Feirme, on a number of occasions. I have no doubt that she will inspire her generation of young women to step forward and take up those roles. That is very important because women did not take up these roles for years. They just stayed in the background. They may have been happy to stay in the background. I am not sure why. However, it was the case that they were very much background operators. They did a great deal of work on the farm but did not get the credit or recognition for that work so it is fantastic to see this. There is definitely change happening. I wish the witnesses well with their endeavours. If there is anything I can do to assist at any time as a TD, I am happy to do it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am sorry about earlier on. There were votes and a Bill on agricultural appeals under way. I apologise that not all of us could be here when the witnesses were talking. I have known Dr. Farrell for a long time. She is a good Mountbellew woman. She has spent a lifetime trying to bring forward ideas for rural Ireland, for sustainability and to keep rural communities alive. A long time ago, we had a debate somewhere. No more than myself, she is still at it. At one time, women, even our mothers, did not get the credit they deserved on farms across the country. People would look at you with two heads now if you said they were boiling pots to heat the meal to feed the pigs. That was done. If you said that to someone now, they would think you came from outer space. In the witnesses' opinion, is the Department of agriculture moving forward in the right way in trying to help women in farming? What would they say to the Department about the barriers? I know the group has its 12 proposals but what would they say about any obstacles the Department is putting in the way of getting more women more involved in agriculture?

Dr. Maura Farrell:

I thank Deputy Nolan very much for her good wishes regarding our FLIARA project. Of course, the overshadowing of women in agriculture the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach mentioned has been there for many years. However, I believe we are moving forward. We have made up a lot of ground as regards women being part of the CAP strategic plan. It is part of what the Commission is driving forward at the moment. We have got great hearings from the Commission on the work we are doing. Some of the proposals included in the CAP strategic plan are quite technical. There is a strong possibility that areas including mentorship and networking may be included in the CAP strategic plan the next time around. What is most important is that we get these measures evaluated. In evaluating, we see whether they have worked. We should not turn around and throw out the same number and type of measures in the next CAP without having had them evaluated to see whether they have had an impact on the ground as regards women in those spaces.

There is something else that becomes important for us. For many years, we have said that creating or devising policy in the absence of clear research or data can be very dangerous. We need to make sure there is solid data in respect of what is happening on the ground and in the CAP strategic plans in respect of women, where women are feeding in, where they are strongest, where they are weakest and where we need to keep going with this. Having that data makes our job, as researchers in a university, easier. Once we have that data, we can come forward. Researching those ideas, the barriers and what works becomes very important. We must make sure that we do not roll out the same measures without proper evaluation. That is very important.

We commend the Department of agriculture for getting this in there. Only two countries in Europe have included measures in the CAP strategic plan in respect of gender and women. We commend the Department for doing that. We must also make sure that it maintains that momentum into the future and does not just see this as something that needs to be rolled out because of a directive from the Commission. It must be something that stays on the agenda and that we bring from lower education, through secondary education and into third level education. Women must be seen not just as part of farming, but as part of the wider agricultural community. There is a wider agricultural jobs agenda that women can also get involved in. It is very important that the Department be allowed to drive that with research and with changes in policy.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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On the likes of agricultural science courses, I presume the colleges are analysing the number of students who are doing these courses as against the numbers ten or 15 years ago. Has there been an uptick in the number of women in agricultural science?

Dr. Maura Farrell:

There has been a considerable uptick. There is a considerable increase in the number of women on veterinary courses and across the board in those traditionally male jobs in agriculture. We see that as very important. Are those women going back into farms? At present, they are not. We are seeing those women in the broader area of agricultural employment. That is great for them. Are they going back into farming? There are barriers in farming that are preventing that. Access to land is an example. The whole debate on generational renewal is very much targeted at young males. It is not targeted at young females. A conversation needs to be had in many homes on the idea that the young woman or young girl on the farm can take it over just as successfully as the male. We have an issue with generational renewal in that older farmers do not even want to hand farms over to males at the moment, never mind females. We have that issue of generational renewal but we need to make sure that women are part of that conversation and that the option is there for the best person to take over the farm, rather than the best male. Women need to become part of that agenda as well.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I would be the first to say, as I have many a time, that in light of the age profile of farmers, we badly need a retirement scheme to encourage people to move the land on to the next generation. I will mention one thing.

The witnesses probably have this in their analysis. For males and females, lifestyle now has changed compared with years ago. In some cases farmers will say they have got a job somewhere and do not really want the seven days a week. Are the witnesses finding that?

Dr. Maura Farrell:

We have done quite a lot of work. A colleague of mine Shane Conway did his PhD with me in the university in Galway and we did a great deal of work on generational renewal. In many respects, the last key area of policy that looked at generational renewal asked farmers to retire from farming forever. We can never have a policy like that again. When it comes to policies on farmers retiring, we need to consider the social aspect of the retirement as well as handing over the land. Shane Conway's research really looked at that. It looked at the attachment of older farmers to the land.

When it comes to handing over the land, it is not like retiring from here or my retiring from the university. Retiring from farming is not in the psyche of farmers in an Irish context. They do not retire from farming, because they are always farmers. We need to consider that in the context of the policy agenda. That attachment in some ways is a much softer policy than the hard financial policies that we tend to throw out there. If we do not consider the attachment to farming, we will never see those farmers retiring. A few years ago, Shane Conway came up with the idea of the farmers' yards. It was a social initiative for farmers to come together outside of handing over the farm. An initiative like that can sometimes be the trigger for a farmer to decide to retire while still being part of that farming environment. Those are quite small policies that do not require a large amount of money to keep rural areas going. We ran a pilot study on that for six weeks at Mountbellew Mart. It was very successful. To get funding for a social initiative like that can be a bit difficult, but it can be the trigger we need for older farmers to retire. When we consider that we have more 90-year-old farmers in this country than farmers aged under 25, we really have to question that generational renewal.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I was at a social farming event this morning down near Elfin. It is great to see that how that has worked with the small bit of funding that it gets. The thing for farmers at the moment is that they might not see a person from one end of the week to the other especially if they are living on their own and we need to try to sort that out. I have been talking to MEPs, etc. and I know that the wheels have started in Europe for the new CAP from 2027 onwards. Have the witnesses gone to Europe with their findings outlining what they believe is required? I spoke to Ciarán Mullooly earlier. I understand that the new Agriculture Commissioner is from Luxembourg and he is a farmer. They had a meeting today. This committee and people like the witnesses need to be getting in the door to try to get things included for the future, as Dr. Farrell has said. Some might say that 2027 is a long way away, but it is only around the corner. Once those decisions are made, they will be done and dusted. Do the witnesses go to Europe to meet them out there and inform them of what is going on? What sort of reception are they getting?

Dr. Maura Farrell:

We have quite a successful story from this week alone. Our FLIARA project is funded through Horizon Europe. We were due to travel to Brussels on Tuesday but unfortunately there was a strike. Our meeting took place online with the European Commission. We sat in front of 57 members of DG AGRI this week. Fourteen units of DG AGRI listened to our project, spoke to us and gave us a wonderful hearing. I will let Mrs. Weir and Dr. Murtagh come in on that as well.

Dr. Aisling Murtagh:

Dr. Farrell has covered a great deal of what we need to see in the next CAP. I just want to pick up something the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach said about lifestyle, which is a very important point. Female farmers need to gain more recognition within the young farmer cohort. There is also a group of people we looked at in a previous Horizon Europe project that was trying to attract new people to rural areas. There is this idea of new entrants to farming, people with no previous connection to agriculture or rural areas who have a drive and interest in having a livelihood that is imbedded in nature. There is a cohort of people who need support. Access to land is the greatest barrier. There are examples across Europe of innovative measures that have supported new entrants. In France, for example, certain organisations buy land specifically to try to give those people with no previous family connection to farming-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am sorry for interrupting Dr. Murtagh. What does she mean by organisations. Are they state bodies?

Dr. Aisling Murtagh:

One example is an organisation called SAFER - that is a French acronym. It is a government-backed organisation that buys land and facilitates those people. France has a strong food culture which lies behind all of that. The point I am trying to make is that there are fairly innovative examples which could be trialled in an Irish context to plug some of those gaps. We potentially have an untapped female successor group, but we also have a potential group of urban dwellers who want to come to the countryside to provide that renewal.

Another example that comes to mind is the farm incubator. It is like the idea of a business incubator but is actually a test farm which may target female successors, young farmers or new entrants where they are given one or two years to test an idea and develop a farm idea as someone would with any other business. There are innovative ideas out there in the European context that could potentially work in Ireland and could change the face of rural areas.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We need to face the reality that over the past 12 to 15 years, the loss of farmers throughout Europe has been phenomenal. While people may live in fantasy, they still need food to stay alive. Whether people believe that are not, some obviously do not at the moment. People need to realise that. It would be useful if the witnesses could forward to the committee details of that French example. Members of the committee go to Brussels and, in fairness, Rebecca Walsh, Christy Haughton and the others do all the research for us. It is helpful to have new ideas in order to look at things differently. I fully agree that we need something to help young farmers. The major problem is that no more land is being made. I know that the price of land in France would be a fair bit lower than it is here.

A dairy farmer has to work seven days a week unless they can get a relief milker. That is for a girl or a lad regardless of who is at the farm. For people in their 20s, it definitely ties them down a bit more. Some people might be looking more towards it in their 30s. Every weekend, someone will say, "Are you gone again or what are you at?" We need to come up with solutions to make it attractive.

As I have said at many a meeting, people who have been on the land a long time have a tendency, which I am guilty of myself the odd time, to say people should go and educate themselves, get a good job and not rely on the land. If people keep saying that often enough, sooner or later, someone will listen.

We need a few things to happen in agriculture. We need a clear direction in which to go. We cannot have a situation whereby rules and regulations change on a regular basis. We also need incentives, as the witnesses have outlined, to encourage people into agriculture. We need solutions that enable people in farming to live the same life as anyone else, including having time off. That is becoming more important.

If the witnesses get a chance, they might send on the information we discussed. I thank Dr. Farrell, Dr. Murtagh and Mrs. Weir for attending.