Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We have lift-off in the form of a quorum. Our meeting will now commence in public session. I have received apologies from Senator Wilson. I received texts from two Senators to the effect that they are both chairing the Seanad, which is interesting. I am delighted Senator Clonan has joined us to allow us to commence our important meeting with representatives from Dóchas to discuss the horrendous and dreadful humanitarian crisis in Sudan. I welcome in particular Ms Jane-Ann McKenna, CEO of Dóchas, Ms Siobhán Walsh, CEO of Goal, Mr. David Regan, CEO of Concern Worldwide, and Ms Caoimhe de Barra, CEO of Trócaire. They are all very welcome here today. They are all very accustomed to our practice on procedure. The format is in the usual manner. We will hear opening statements from the witnesses in turn, followed by a questions and answers session with members of the committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions to allow all members the opportunity to participate.

I remind witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it in any way identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that any such direction be complied with should it be necessary.

I remind members they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. I remind our witnesses we are still operating a Covid-type hybrid hearing, in that it is possible for members to participate from their offices. I see Deputy Devlin, who is not a member of the committee, is attending the meeting from his office. He is welcome to participate should he feel it is necessary. I welcome the former Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, to the meeting. He is not a member of the committee but I know he has a keen interest in this issue. I am pleased that he is joining us. He says he has not been at a committee meeting since 2010.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Except as a Minister.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That notwithstanding, I know he will fully comply with our standing orders and meeting regime. I thank Senator Clonan again for allowing us to kick off proceedings. I now call on Ms McKenna to make her opening statement.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to meet the committee and brief it on the humanitarian crisis in Sudan. The enormity of the crisis in Sudan is hard to comprehend.

As a result of ongoing conflict, deliberate disruption of humanitarian aid, displacement and destruction of services, people are dying of hunger, with famine declared in North Darfur and thought to be much more widespread. A total of 26 million people's lives hang in the balance, which is an incredible number, while 9 million children are food insecure. A total of 3.4 million children are at high risk of epidemic diseases and more than 700,000 children under five-years-old risk dying from starvation. Floods further threaten the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

More than 12 million people have fled their homes. Many have been forced to flee repeatedly, with little access to shelter, income and basic necessities. Civilians are suffering horrific forms of abuse and gender-based violence. Reports of indiscriminate attacks, killings and other atrocities are widespread.

The steps the Irish Government has taken in recent weeks to bring attention to the crisis in Sudan are significant. We welcome the Taoiseach’s address in the Dáil where he committed to using Ireland's voice to demand a ceasefire, humanitarian access, protection of civilians, and accountability for human rights abuses. We also acknowledge the Tánaiste’s remarks at the UN General Assembly high-level week to highlight the crisis in Sudan, and were encouraged by the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming's, address at the UN General Assembly where he stated, "We must do whatever it takes to pressure the parties to come back to the negotiating table, and bring to an end this destructive cycle of violence." It is vital that this high level of diplomatic engagement on this crisis is sustained. Ireland’s public voice and leadership is recognised, impactful and appreciated by civil society.

However, we believe it is important that Ireland’s voice, as a champion for those furthest behind, is matched by its funding. At a time there are devastating crises in Sudan, the Middle East and other parts of the world, it is deeply disappointing that there was no additional funding for development and humanitarian assistance in budget 2025. We fear there is a growing disconnect between the escalating needs globally and our own overseas development assistance, ODA, funding, as we move further and further away from reaching the Government's target of 0.7% GNI on overseas development assistance by 2030. Getting the response that Sudan needs right now is our first priority but the level of destruction and devastation encountered by the Sudanese people will take a generation to overcome. That is why longer-term funding and commitment is critical.

Many of our members, including those here with me today, are working with communities in Sudan and in neighbouring countries and are persevering in the most challenging and difficult circumstances to deliver humanitarian aid. This committee has been a strong champion for those affected by humanitarian crises and for the calls of Dóchas and its members. We ask the committee to uphold Ireland's commitment to reach 0.7% GNI on overseas development assistance, and to publish a pathway to achieve this. We ask it to use all political efforts to bring about an end to the hostilities through an immediate ceasefire and an inclusive peace process. We ask that co-ordinated diplomatic efforts are accelerated to push for unfettered humanitarian access, using all crossline and cross-border routes. We ask the committee to use Ireland's role on the executive committees of the World Food Programme, WFP, UNICEF and Central Emergency Response Fund, CERF, to ensure humanitarian aid is appropriate, timely and delivered at scale, and to ensure accountability and oversight on where and how funding is allocated. As ask that Ireland is vocal in its condemnation of the violation of international legal norms in this conflict, including international humanitarian law and human rights law. We ask that Ireland amplify the voices of the women of Sudan, ensuring that all efforts to end violence, resolve conflict, and establish a pathway to peace and justice includes their meaningful and equitable participation.

I would like to hand over now to David Regan, who will give his remarks, followed by Siobhán Walsh and Caoimhe de Barra.

Mr. David Regan:

I thank the committee for meeting to address the question of Sudan. In the midst of all the crises around the world, scant attention is being paid to the 18 months of conflict in Sudan, despite the enormity of the suffering and the devastation wrought. Sudanese people live in constant fear of bombardment, are suffering horrific sexual violence and are experiencing famine and hunger, as the committee has heard. Concern has worked in Sudan since 1985. Throughout that time, Irish people and Irish Aid have funded our work, and millions of people have been supported at times of extreme need in their lives.

The current humanitarian crisis is worse than anything we have seen in that time. Severe hunger is widespread and is expected to worsen. Children are eating wild plants, leading to poisoning. Those who fall ill can access little help as an estimated 70% of an already weak healthcare clinic infrastructure has been looted or bombed. The scale of impunity with which sexual assault and rape are happening is frightening. Concern colleagues and our partners support women and girls in health clinics and refugee camps. Their stories bring tears to our eyes and should make us all angry. Last December my colleague, Dominic McSorley, briefed this committee from Sudan. Concern's message then highlighted the resilience of the Sudanese people, which is remarkable but not inexhaustible. Almost a year later the networks of local people delivering aid to their communities, that he referenced, still exist and operate despite the escalating crisis. Concern continues to support these local groups. In the past 18 months our focus has shifted from development and strengthening community resilience to emergency response. We now focus on helping people to survive, providing essential emergency kits and distributing cash transfers so people can buy goods they need for their families when markets are open. We rehabilitate health facilities supported by Irish aid and continue working with staff of the ministry of health, through whom emergency nutrition support is provided to malnourished women and children. Concern mobile health clinics across the country are providing primary health services in remote communities.

Behind the statistics are real families and I would like to highlight one of those today. Before this crisis the family was living in South Darfur. Amani worked as a housekeeper while her five children attended a local school. Her husband was a retired soldier. When the conflict reached her town, Amani and her family were subjected to shocking abuses from soldiers. The family was forced to flee to the Wedweil refugee camp in South Sudan. With her husband unable to find work and with the support of Concern, Amani started a small restaurant selling meat, beans, lentils and porridge. She now uses the small profits to support not only her five children, but some family back home in Sudan and some of the community in the Wedweil refugee settlement. In her words, "We are really suffering, our problems are many, we want to solve them, but we cannot solve these problems alone."

Ireland, as Ms McKenna said, has a deserved reputation for addressing global hunger and Ireland's voice is heard at the highest level. We must follow through with concerted action. Concern and other Irish NGOs have the capacity to do more. Last week's budget allocation for ODA was an increase in percentage terms, but the increase was little more than half the country's overall planned increase in expenditure. Ireland is now a wealthy country at a time when the world is facing rapidly increasing levels of humanitarian need. Concern's response, like all humanitarian organisations, is restricted in Sudan due to limited access across conflict lines. Ireland must continue to demand the safe, humanitarian access Ms McKenna spoke about, which is essential to reach people and get aid to them. Through the EU, Ireland must use its diplomatic weight to work for a cessation of hostilities. Ireland must finally continue to stand up for international humanitarian law. There must be accountability for the disregard in the world today for international law, a disregard suddenly so common it is becoming normalised.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

To build on the point made by my colleague, Mr. Regan, the issue is that the scale of this crisis is still largely invisible. That is the major challenge we have. I will focus on the perspective of Goal workers and partners inside the front lines of this conflict. Goal has a long history of working in Sudan. We have been there since 1985. We have a team of more than 150 people who are primarily working in North Darfur and South Kordofan. Our work focuses on supporting conflict-affected populations. We focus on nutrition, health, water, sanitation, food security and livelihoods with women's empowerment and protection at the heart of everything we do.

I will give some practical examples of Goal’s work. We are operating 38 functional health clinics supporting more than 33,000 people, and providing nutrition services to combat malnutrition, which is a major problem, distributing seeds to 6,000 farmers in South Kordofan and every day delivering 4,000 l of water to IDPs alongside health clinics and sanitation efforts.

I speak about distributing water to 4,000 IDPs, understanding that we are doing so in between the bombardments. This is the reality that all of the agencies are facing.

What is clear from our team on the front line is that hunger and famine-like conditions are set to grow. This is evidenced by the number of children who are dying of malnutrition and the numbers showing up at the mobile health clinics. Before the war, seven or eight hospitals were open in Al-Fashir, serving a population of 1.5 million people. Today, one hospital is functioning. Prior to this, we were treating 100 young children with acute malnutrition every day in one of our clinics. Today, we are supporting more than 800 children with severe acute malnutrition in these clinics.

The impact on mothers and women cannot be overstated. Due to the lack of food in the markets and the lack of money and livelihoods, many of the mothers are hungry. They are witnessing their young children suffering and dying from malnutrition. Out of sheer desperation, mothers are resorting to prostitution to feed their children. The violence against women is a major crisis and it cannot be overstated. I am here not only as the CEO of GOAL but as the chair of the Irish Consortium on Gender Based Violence, which was established in 2005 as a response to the systematic sexual violence against women and girls in North Darfur. The stories that are shared by the members of our team are harrowing. Armed groups are coming into the displacement camps and raping mothers and daughters and forcing young girls into marriage. Last week's report from the UN called it a catastrophic impact for women and girls, with a twofold increase in gender-based violence. This is a shocking violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1325, which commits the international community to protect women in conflict, especially from gender-based violence.

The food and livelihood crisis is further fuelling the conflict. What I mean by this is that countless mothers are reporting they are losing their sons to the conflict. The young men are joining the conflict because their families are on the brink of starvation and it provides some form of income for the families. The point is that the desperation of hunger is fuelling the conflict even more. As the conflict continues to grow, and it is growing, so is the problem of child soldiers. There is no end in sight. In addition to the two main warring factions, there are numerous armed groups impacting the safety and security of communities throughout Sudan and disrupting the humanitarian aid system.

Yet with all of this, I will speak to the power of humanitarian workers and local communities together kicking into action and collaborating. The risks are enormous for all humanitarian workers who have been to the forefront of this crisis, bearing witness and delivering life-saving services and food to very vulnerable communities. We must recognise the important role and courage of humanitarian workers. I also want to call out the incredible courage, power and resilience of women in these displacement camps. They are the main drivers of the creation of new innovations in solving problems and identifying gaps. For example, they have set up community kitchens to provide daily meals and provide health services. The point is that community kitchens speak to the important role women play in being agents of change in conflict.

The critical work of NGOs will go on as long as we have uninterrupted, unrestricted and sustained access to communities and humanitarian supplies but functioning humanitarian corridors are needed. What is happening in Sudan is horrifying. People are suffering and dying behind a veil. Ireland has an important role to play and our humanitarian leadership is more important than ever. We recognise the role the Tánaiste played in speaking at the UN General Assembly and his leadership is welcome. We need to keep sounding the alarm bells. If we ignore this crisis, the risk of the conflict further destabilising neighbouring countries is something we really have to pay attention to. A couple of weeks ago, I said at a Dóchas briefing that I believe we can all do more and I believe we all can.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

My colleagues have painted a very stark picture of the reality in Sudan. Trócaire also works in Sudan and has done for many years through our local partners. The question now is what Ireland can do.

In general, Ireland can continue to voice its opposition to the violations of international humanitarian law and human rights, the attacks on civilians, the impediments to humanitarian access, and the continued flow of weapons from third parties and their intermediaries to the conflict. There are, however, five specific areas where we would like to see Ireland continue to be very active, both at the EU and UN levels.

The first, as my colleagues have already said, is calling for an immediate and sustainable ceasefire but, in particular, for the establishment of an independent monitoring and verification mechanism to enforce it. That needs to have the full, equal and meaningful participation of women. However, that sounds like something which is quite a way down the line, so my second point is that Ireland needs to support and amplify calls for the deployment, as early as possible, of an independent and impartial force with a mandate to protect civilians in Sudan. The last civilian protection mechanism or force that was in Sudan was wound down as recently as last December. There is no mechanism in Sudan right now to protect civilians but we have heard of appalling abuses being perpetrated against them.

The third point is that Ireland should continue to support and amplify calls for the UN Security Council to expand the recently renewed sanctions regime for Darfur. Unfortunately, while this was renewed at the UN Security Council in September, it remains just focused on Darfur and not on the entire country. That has been heavily criticised but we believe there is scope for that to be revisited and that Ireland has a role to play in that regard.

My fourth related point is that Ireland should advocate for an expansion of EU sanctions. The EU has brought in sanctions on two occasions in the past year but these need to be broadened. The list of those targeted by sanctions needs to be broadened to accommodate the wider political and military elites, their corporate networks and their enablers, including international proxies.

My final point is that Ireland needs to continue to support, as it has vocally done to date, the renewal and resourcing of the mandate of the UN Human Right's Council's independent fact-finding mission on Sudan, which recently reported. The findings of that report were absolutely horrifying but it is the only mission that exists at the moment with a mandate to cover the entire country of Sudan and to report on the human rights violations being experienced by civilians. Ireland, which has been vocal in support of the mission, can and should do more, including looking at supporting the resourcing of that mandate.

In the interests of time and of allowing for questions and answers, I will leave it there. I am very happy to answer any questions members may have or to elaborate.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Thank you very much. I thank the witnesses who are representing four of the leading groups involved in Ireland's humanitarian work overseas, namely Dóchas, Goal, Concern Worldwide and Trócaire. They have presented us with a stark and shocking assessment of life in Sudan currently, after 500 days of conflict, which involves hunger, famine, conflict, bombardment, sexual violence and a lack of international aid. Almost 10 million people have been forced to flee the land and it is estimated that up to 150,000 people have lost their lives over the last period.

We are very keen to both echo and amplify what the witnesses have said, which is based on their experience in the region and on the front line. I hope the committee can formulate some conclusions on their recommendations and that we will be in a position to put these directly to the Tánaiste and the Department of Foreign Affairs, notwithstanding the work they are doing on behalf of Ireland in raising their voices on the international stage.

I will now open the floor to members for their questions and observations.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for being here. I met a few of the witnesses previously. I thank them for the work they do. We all get up everyday and try to make the world a better place but I really want to thank them for the work they do. We live in critical times. We have the war in Gaza, Palestine, and now Lebanon, as well as Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

We also have Sudan, which was dropping down the list of wars that are going on. For the benefit of the committee, will Ms de Barra outline the progress made at the recent United Nations General Assembly regarding Sudan and, in particular, on extending the arms embargo to cover the whole of Sudan?

I checked with the secretariat at the start of the meeting and we only received the opening statements from Dóchas. I am interested in receiving a copy of the opening statements from the other three organisations. I will follow up on the questions and requests they have made. I will have other questions.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

It was very disappointing that the UN Security Council did not see fit to extend the arms embargo beyond Darfur. That arms embargo is an historical reality, having existed since 2005. A combination of different resolutions and statements led to it but, for political reasons, the UN Security Council could not agree, even though it was recommended by the Human Rights Council's international fact-finding mission, to extend the arms embargo to the whole of the country. That does not mean the case has been lost. It can be revisited. If this issue continues to get a lot of international attention and continues to be brought back to the UN Security Council, it can remain a key policy point that Ireland, its allies and like-minded countries can keep bringing back to the table. We believe it is an extremely important one.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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As we heard, women and children are usually the first to suffer in any conflict. Would it be possible for the committee to receive testimonies from women affected, without them being placed at risk? Mr. Regan related a story of a mother of five whose husband was a soldier. If money, wealth and hard work made one rich, African women would be billionaires. There are particular risks for women and girls and Sudan had a problem with domestic and gender-based violence already. If the witnesses could secure testimonies for the committee, we would appreciate that.

Ms McKenna stated we were moving away from the Government target of 0.7% of GNI for overseas development aid. The exact figure was skewed in recent years by the amount of help Ukrainians were receiving. Excluding the funding relating to that, could Ms McKenna give the committee a clearer picture of the trajectory of the amount of funding and percentage of GNI over the 2019 to 2025 period?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

Based on our estimates over the past couple of years, we are at approximately 0.32%. It has stagnated or wavered slightly between 0.30% to 0.34% over the past couple of years. Speaking on behalf of all of the organisations in Ireland, we very much welcome the amount of funding going to Ukrainian refugees in Ireland. That goes without saying. We see that has inflated figure of our ODA percentage over the past couple of years. That is why we have requested that the Department report on these figures separately and that it report the total percentage of ODA, including and excluding Ukrainian refugees. It is important because we are primarily focused on the essential and what we believe should be the intention of what overseas aid should be, which is overseas, looking at our international presence on the world stage and ensuring that we are maintaining and increasing that percentage year on year. We are concerned because the programme for Government refers to the target of providing 0.7% of GNI for overseas aid being reached by 2030. That is what I mean when I say we are getting further and further away from that target.

It is becoming less realistic that will be able to achieve it and cover that distance in the next four years.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested in receiving the opening statements because Ms McKenna mentioned specific requests.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I have been following this for some time and I have raised it in the Dáil on a few occasions. It has gone under the radar somewhat, as Ms McKenna said, because of what is happening in Ukraine and Palestine. It is horrific what is going on there and maybe even more horrific because it has not got the attention until recently that other areas have got. I think of the Rohingya people as well and what is happening in Myanmar. There are so many different conflicts but this is probably one of the worst ones.

The Chairman mentioned the estimated 50,000 people who have been killed so far. The House of Lords report mentioned that at one stage. There is also instability in other countries close by, Chad in particular and Ethiopia possibly. There was also a large number of refugees in Sudan before this conflict started. I do not want to repeat what has been said. I want to focus a little on the refugee situation that existed prior to the conflict, where those people came from, where they are now, the people who have left for neighbouring countries and what their situation is. I am concerned about the instability spreading to other areas, which are also quite fragile. That is my first question.

Mr. David Regan:

The refugee situation is indeed quite astonishing. More than 2 million people have left Sudan. Some of those, as the Deputy said, are returnees. I was in Chad some months ago and there was a population that had gone from Chad to Sudan and they have now returned. They struggle in terms of safety in the refugee camps. It is very unsafe for women and children and more than three quarters of these people are women and children. They struggle to provide them with food and water and basic shelter. That is a huge challenge because the funding available on an international level is not what is needed to provide the very basic support to these refugees in Chad.

There is a similar scenario in South Sudan with people who fled from there to Sudan because of the conflict in South Sudan. They have now returned, along with Sudanese refugees like the lady and her family who I described. The circumstances there are very similar. At the moment, as Ms McKenna alluded to, the rains are particularly heavy there so the flooding is particularly bad. It is a very challenging situation right now for that community. We see the same in the Central African Republic. Fewer people are going to Ethiopia and we also have to recognise that governments like the one in Chad do not have a lot of money and they have actually been hospitable in as far as they can to the refugees. This is worth noting. It is not a situation where they are being pushed back out again. They are doing their best to find ways to accommodate these groups. They know that many of the group that last came from Sudan when the conflict was at its worst 20 years ago are still in Chad. They recognise that they need to integrate these people into the community because, sadly, the way they look at it in Chad is that this situation in Sudan is not going to be resolved quickly and they need to think about what to do with these refugees over the longer term. However, as I said, the numbers are astonishing. Even in the past month, some 100,000 more people have left Sudan to go into Chad, so it is a massive movement of people. We spoke about the 25 million people who are in need of humanitarian support. Where are they going to go? We are looking at a mass movement of people here, as well as the starvation and hunger we alluded to.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The country is three times the size of France. I also understand that disease is a concern at the moment. Can we have an update on that?

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

We are trying to keep as many of the mobile health clinics as possible functioning, but there is cholera, malnutrition and disease outbreaks caused by people using contaminated water. That is why the trucking in of water is absolutely critical. Along with that, using the power of local communities is key in terms of doing health education.

In the absence of hospitals and health clinics, it is down to grassroots communities mitigating and preventing what they can. There is a critical need to ensure that medical supplies continue to make their way through borders. According to reports from health staff, the main chronic issue continues to be severe malnutrition.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I recall a number of years ago when I was Chair of the justice committee and also sat on the foreign affairs committee that members of the Defence Forces appeared before us. Some of the personnel told us that when they were in Darfur, their role was to protect women who went out for water because that was one of the most dangerous things for them to do. They could be attacked, raped and so on, but they had no choice but to get water for their children.

The possible deployment of an independent and impartial force was mentioned. Deploying an independent and impartial force into the middle of an active war would be challenging. Perhaps it is something we should support, but how would it work? Would the force come from Africa? Some soldiers from Kenya have gone to Haiti to try to bring peace to another troubled spot. How would the proposed force be established and deployed and from where would its members come? What would be acceptable out there?

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

This is an important matter, as there is zero protection for civilians in Sudan. In fact, the protection of civilians is not something that Ireland has been strong on for many years. There were two forces until relatively recently. There was UNAMID up to 2020. It was concerned with protection and ensuring a range of issues across the country and was focused on Darfur. It was wound down for political reasons, namely, resistance from the then Government of Sudan. In line with many other UN peacekeeping, peace enforcement and protection of civilians forces, there was an issue with funding and the willingness of UN members to fund these kinds of forces. Other forces that are badly needed also suffer funding issues, for example, in the DRC. More recently, there was a joint UN-African Union mission, called UNITAMS. It had an express dimension of protection of civilians, but it was wound down at the end of last year in the middle of the conflict as a result of political pressure.

The peace negotiations are effectively stalled. There are strands that have been live for the past few months, but no progress has been made since the Jeddah declaration last year. Given this, the fact that the conflict looks like it is going to endure and the scale of the atrocities against civilians, it becomes impossible not to say that there needs to be a protection force in Sudan. It needs to be UN mandated, but it could be a joint UN-African Union mission. As to which countries would support and staff it, that would be a matter for the UN, in particular the offices in New York. However, Ireland has been a troop-contributing country for more years than any of us know and has an unbroken record in that regard, so Ireland could have a role in some capacity in supporting a protection of civilians mission.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I will ask two final questions, the first of which is on the role of outside actors. The UAE and others have been mentioned as playing a major part in the situation. Do the witnesses have any comment to make on this?

Second, what is the possibility of legal proceedings further down the road? They would be a long way away, but would the threat of such proceedings have an impact now if it was highlighted more that the people leading and responsible for these atrocities could be brought to justice?

Mr. David Regan:

As a humanitarian agency on the ground, it is difficult to comment on external actors in the region. It is clear that there is external support for the various forces in place, which is why we have asked for sanctions and so on to be considered. It is difficult for us to speak too clearly about those actors because we have people on the ground and we need to protect them as far as possible, but this issue is a concern.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

It has been well documented that there are significant forces involved. For example, the UAE is supporting the RSF with arms and other forms of support. Amnesty International and Freedom House have documented support and arms trades to both sides, including specific weaponry.

What it means is that for those countries and blocs that have significant relationships with the Gulf states - for example, the Gulf Cooperation Council is meeting with the EU leadership next week - certainly these issues need to be on the agenda. They need to be addressed openly because otherwise there is no chance that impunity will be addressed. This conflict cannot survive without the external involvement and that external involvement is all predicated around control of resources, flows of resources, access to ports on the Red Sea, access to gold and mining. There is competition between countries that are outside of the region and that are trying maintain or gain control of Sudan as a linchpin within the region. Highlighting these issues at EU level in the forthcoming meetings, several of which take place next week, namely, the Foreign Affairs Council, the Gulf Cooperation Council meeting with the EU and the European Council, and even highlighting that the EU or that Ireland believes that this is intolerable, is an important move.

With respect to crimes, the ICC, stemming from the previous Darfur conflict, has an ongoing mandate around crimes in Darfur. We also believe that the mandate that the ICC has should be extended to the entire country of Darfur so that crimes can be investigated. It is an extremely long process but it is very important to signal that there is justice and that there can be justice for the 25 million people in need of humanitarian aid but, particularly, if the committee does not mind me saying it, for the 6.7 million people who are at risk of gender-based violence whose bodies are being used as battlefields. There has to be justice. Ireland supporting the ICC and the expansion of the ICC mandate to the whole country would send a powerful signal.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I add my voice to that of Deputy Cronin with respect to the people working on the ground - the humanitarian workers and others - and recognise their bravery and courage in the work they are doing. It is amazing.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and the fact that they are highlighting this very important issue. I also thank their staff, at home and abroad.

Most of my questions I jotted down here have been answered already but I have maybe three that they might be able to expand on. First of all, can they comment on the prospects for a political solution? All conflicts end eventually, even if some go on for decades. The US has tried to negotiate a ceasefire unsuccessfully. Do they see the prospect of a political solution to this conflict in the foreseeable future? In terms of the observer mission, they might explain further as to what the objections and obstacles are to that. Is it a UN veto or something on those lines? The UN Security Council is fairly paralysed these days. Absent that, could the African Union, the Arab League or some regional group do that instead of the UN, if a UN mandate is not possible as it increasingly is on everything?

Finally, on extending the arms embargo to all of Sudan, the European Union has already done that. What is the position of the UK, US and Russia? Are they saying, "No", or what space are they in in terms of extending the arms embargo to the whole of the country?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

I thank the Deputy. On the first question regarding the political solution, we would like to acknowledge that when the Tánaiste was in New York only a few weeks ago, he called out all the external actors that are fuelling this conflict very clearly. That was a welcome move because it is not an easy statement to make at the UN General Assembly that there are very much other actors fuelling this conflict. Unfortunately, we are not seeing people coming to the table collectively who are the critical actors in this conflict, not only obviously the relative parties but particularly the countries that are fuelling it. The Taoiseach will be in Washington today and we are hoping that he will address this with President Biden to exert political pressure. We also are looking towards the UK, which is the penholder of Sudan at the UN Security Council at the moment. It would be welcome if there was any political pressure that we could exert there, in particular, in trying to find a resolution to this.

We also need to look, as Ms de Barra said, to the UAE and our own relationship and where we can exert diplomatic pressure to bring all of the different actors to the table. At the moment, we do not see that there is the political momentum. It is welcome that this issue was raised at the UN General Assembly but we have not seen the level of traction needed in bringing the relevant political actors to the table collectively to discuss a meaningful peace process. With regard to the observer mission, I will relay back to Ms de Barra.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

The issue is unfortunately an age-old one; it is related to the structure of the Security Council and the fact that, in particular, Russia and China tend to vote against anything that could have an impact on the sovereignty of any country for reasons that extend to precedents. There is also consideration around who supports which side of the conflict - the RSF and the SAF. An arms embargo would deprive the SAF of arms, as it would the RSF. There are parties who would like to see one perhaps gain the upper hand over the other. It is the problem around sovereignty and the complete stalling of anything that impinges on the sovereignty or future sovereignty of any state.

In terms of other authorities, there is the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, IGAD, in east Africa, which has been active in many conflicts and with which Ireland has a relationship; I believe it is located in Addis Ababa. It is possibly worth a conversation through the Department of Foreign Affairs to see what is possible and what is being done at that level. In the African Union, issues around sovereignty also tend to be raised when these issues come up, unfortunately. I endorse what Ms McKenna said that until there are incentives for warring parties to come to the table or the incentives for them to continue are taken away - the continued fuelling of their warring by external parties - we are unlikely to see them willingly come to the table. Things have gone in reverse since the one meeting that looked successful which gave rise to the Jeddah declaration but that was in May 2023. Over the past summer, there were three conferences or three attempts to bring people to the able and each failed. They were all held in good faith but the forces at war did not participate and will not until the resources they are being given to prosecute the conflict are ended.

Mr. David Regan:

On the arms embargo, as humanitarians, our primary interest is a ceasefire and to enable safe humanitarian access. We are in a critical situation. People are hungry and a famine is going on. That is not to say that everything Ms de Barra said is not 100% correct; it is. We need a greater focus on how to get the actors involved to think about how they will stop this action. We see political forces in the world that have seen tensions grow. We saw it at the UN Security Council and across multiple African countries where we work. We see external actors coming in and seeking to take control or destabilise countries. It reinforces the importance of the EU playing an active role from a diplomatic perspective in engaging with Africa and in trying to secure the stability of the countries there. It is not the role every other country is playing at the moment. It is important that particular role is recognised at EU level and that we take action in that direction.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

I support what Mr. Regan said. We just need to get people back to the negotiating table. It has to be done. It is about will, commitment, sustained pressure, advocacy and using every channel and leverage point we can to ensure that is delivered because there is too much at stake. That is why we are back here sounding the alarm again because we cannot be bystanders in all of this. Too much is at stake. While we have to look at all of the options on the table, the one, as we know as a country ourselves, is getting people to the able to talk about solutions, a ceasefire and, ultimately, looking for peace.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I have a few points before we conclude.

I acknowledge that all the witnesses primarily, if not exclusively, represent humanitarian organisations and it is often difficult to become involved or, indeed, embroiled in the political situation. It seems, however, that the power struggle along the Red Sea is playing a very important role here. It also seems that the crimes of the RSF appear to be very much on the grievous scale and as crimes against humanity to an enormous extent. Equally, it seems there is clear evidence of the RSF being funded by the United Arab Emirates. In terms of ensuring the parties can, ultimately, be brought to the table, it has been suggested that the RSF be designated a terrorist organisation and a greater level of pressure be placed on it to curtail its operations and deal with the matter of the group's funding. Ireland may well have a role to play in this regard by sanctioning the known leaders of the RSF. Do the witnesses think this would be a useful exercise?

In her earlier contribution, Ms McKenna mentioned, from a humanitarian perspective, the importance of safe access routes. These are equivalent to asylum pathways. We again see the situation in Ireland where we have had many asylum seekers from Sudan in the past year and more compared with heretofore. Is there evidence of people now fleeing the area and the war and seeking family unification in Ireland? If this is a feature of the situation, is there anything we can do in this regard? How best can the international community impose and provide safe access routes, expand asylum pathways and ensure people have an opportunity of leaving should they wish to do so? There is also a consequence in this context for agriculture on the ground currently in Sudan. What is the situation regarding subsistence farming? Mr. Regan mentioned the weather and how that can adversely impact the current situation and make matters worse. Is there any international movement towards restoring subsistence farming and supporting the refarming of land or lands that have been out of commission due to conflict and famine in recent times? Can Ireland play a role in this regard? I refer to the role Trócaire is already playing in this context.

Before we conclude, I will deal with local governance and the rule of law. It seems the rule of law has broken down. How best can the international community assist governance structures and strengthen the rule of law through international development programmes? All the organisations represented here are experts at this over a long number of years. Is there a role for this? The EU was perhaps only mentioned by Ms de Barra. The UN Human Rights Council's fact-finding mission is either a failure or it has been stalled. How could that be rebooted? Is there an opportunity for the EU to turn a sharper focus towards the region, which is next door to the Sahel?

We see, for example, the importance of the position of the EU special representative in the Sahel. In fact, that representative is visiting Ireland this week. I do not know whether there is a special representative in this region between the Sahel and the Red Sea. Is there a reason why not or is there a reason that efforts might be made in that regard?

The failure of the United Nations was highlighted by the disappointment in the recent United Nations General Assembly, UNGA, series of meetings. I wonder if perhaps a greater level of emphasis or a greater impetus can come from the European Union. We talk about a ceasefire. A ceasefire will only happen if the will is there and often, the will only will be there if it is in the context of a programme for demobilisation and programme for disarmament or at least proposals for disarmament, but it seems that we have not got there yet. Therefore, the likelihood of a ceasefire is probably more remote than any of us wish or hope for. Again, however, Ireland's voice, along with others, is something that is needed on a more regular basis than we have experienced heretofore.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

I will go through one question and then will refer to my colleagues for the others. Regarding the access routes, I am not an expert in this area but we obviously know there is quite a large and significant Sudanese diaspora in Ireland, particularly within the health service. I am not sure where we are at the moment-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Are they organised?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

Very organised. There is an association of Sudanese doctors who work very closely with the Department of Health and the global health programme there to build the relationship back and forth between the hospitals in Sudan and here in Ireland. They are very well organised and they are an engaged group. It is important that the opportunities for family reunification are opened. I am not sure exactly where the State is on that, but it would obviously be welcome from our side.

It is also really important to note, as Mr. Regan said, that the vast majority of refugees are being housed in next door neighbour countries, such as Chad, that are dealing with the burden of more than 2 million refugees and in other states, in particular in Egypt and elsewhere. Really, providing support to those refugees but also ensuring that we have programmes available to people who want to reunite with their families here in Ireland in particular would be very welcome.

With regard to the sanctions on the RSF, which is a part of what Ms de Barra was speaking to, that is where we really want that extension of sanctions beyond just Darfur but to the whole of Sudan. Perhaps Ms de Barra could speak to that.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

What is important to bear in mind is there are two parties to the conflict. The EU has already issued sanctions against both sides. Both sides have committed appalling violations and continue to do so. This is not one of those deeply asymmetrical conflicts. It is much more symmetrical than others of which we are aware. For example, the EU brought in sanctions in January and then again in June that target individuals. They target specific entities that are arming and providing arms to both sides. The suggestion is that that needs to be broader. The approach taken to Russia, for example, was a wider systemic network-based approach so those who are allies of or supporting both warring parties need to be looked at. In terms of process, my understanding is that a member state can actually propose additional sanctions. Obviously, it is probably better to do it in concert with other member states but it is possible for Ireland to propose additional sanctions and then they could go through the process of being examined to the different levels in working parties, committees, etc., right up to the Council adopting then a regulation around those sanctions. While it is absolutely not our area to specify individuals, we do think that a systemic approach looking at the entities that are enabling the conflict to continue and not just a small number of individuals who are leading the prosecution of the conflict is very important. It is just to make that point that it is not just one side. It is a war being prosecuted by two parties.

Mr. David Regan:

Over 300 million people in the world are in need of humanitarian aid. Two of the primary causes are climate and conflict. Of those two it is shocking to say that conflict is the major one. Climate is a substantive issue as well, it is an enormous issue. In Sudan the ability of people to predict when rain will fall is considerably diminished as it has become unpredictable. The scale of either drought or flood is similarly growing. We are seeing that right across Africa. That being said, people are trying to adapt and work in communities as best they can. It is very challenging for them. It is frankly not safe in many parts of the continent.

The refugees we work with in Chad are keen to remain close to the border as they essentially run the gauntlet back to their land in west Sudan to plant and then run again, to get away from the forces that seek to kidnap and kill them. That is outside of the various aspects of gender-based violence that happen with total impunity. Climate is a major issue. Communities are responding but the situation is challenging as the level of change is so extreme. It is challenging for them. We are working with them to do what we can to diversify their livelihoods. The reality is that government has broken down, as has been touched on, and we are relying on communities to mind themselves. Even at local government level it is very difficult to conceptualise governments having the necessary structure. This is a very basic community level. How we work with these people to enable them to manage themselves is probably the better way to look at it.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

In the opening comments I used one practical example of where we are working with small farmers in south Kordofan, distributing seed tubes to 6,000 farming households. Some of the real live issues while this conflict is ongoing are the burning of crops and farmers being attacked in their homes and on their land. The question of what we can do while there is still an active conflict is challenging. Farmers are being displaced from their homes and homelands. Trying to find pockets of being able to work with farmers to organise seed distribution where possible and appropriate is necessary but is an enormous challenge because of access. There is no food on the markets. Both farmers and mothers talk about spending 12 hours at markets to try and get enough sorghum for one meal for that day. They then have to worry about the next day when it comes. It is the appropriate question but it is challenging.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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How many field workers do we have in the region at present?

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

Most of us work with local partners. There is a degree of direct implementation by organisations where we employ people who work directly on the ground. We work through local partners who are close to the communities as community-based and national organisations. I am sure it stretches to many thousands.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

We have contacts with 150 who are on the ground and working with partners also.

Mr David Regan:

Concern has 143, again working with partners. It is a broader expanse than that number for us all.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The matter of their own safety and protection is itself a big issue.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about the amount of conflict going on in the world. We have seen what we would call respectable states targeting aid workers. Is any of that going on with any of the aid workers the organisations represented here have? I also seek the witnesses' opinion on another subject. In Ireland we pride ourselves on our neutrality. The African Union and the Arab League were mentioned. Is there more that we could do as a neutral country and non-member of NATO to work towards peace? The witnesses spoke about the vicious circle around poverty. War causes poverty, which causes people to join the army and continue the war. There is a vicious circle around conflict and carbon release from bombs. We see all this. We see how that causes another vicious circle in respect of climate change and so on.

It is hard to keep hope alive sometimes when you are digging down into issues like this. I commend an Teachta Stanton, who has kept the matter of Sudan to the fore in this committee. We can see how the UN has no respect around issues like this. Israel is now intimidating among others, Irish soldiers, who are taking orders from and are there under a United Nations mandate. It feels as though there is a breakdown of international law, order and norms of war. Do the witnesses have anything to say on that?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We will come back to the Middle East before we conclude but I do not want to depart from Sudan for the moment.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It is very important that our aid workers are safe in Sudan and are being respected there. Can Ireland do more with the African Union and the Arab League?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I do not want our discussion on Sudan to become an attack on Israel. Before we conclude, I will be inviting our guests, in particular Ms Walsh, to speak to us briefly on the current situation in Lebanon. That will address the issue raised by Deputy Cronin. Regarding the point the Deputy has made, if it is applicable to Sudan, I will ask our panel to respond to it. We can leave the Middle East to the point before we conclude.

I am very keen, on the matter of this special meeting, that we agree a set of conclusions. We have recommendations from Ms Mckenna in this context. It is quite right to point out that we do not have the official transcripts of the submissions made by Ms de Barra, Mr. Regan or Ms Walsh but we will have them by this evening. I would be keen to make contact with the office of the Tánaiste. He is due here at this committee before the expiry of our mandate. It is important that we would be in a position to support him in his endeavours.

We have seen Ireland's response to the crisis through the international humanitarian conference for Sudan in Paris in April and the fact that we have gone further than just making a contribution by supporting a form of flexible funding. We know that in our diplomatic engagements, the Tánaiste has consistently emphasised the need to protect civilians, maintain humanitarian access, stop the fighting and to put civilians at the centre of the political future of Sudan.

At the same time, we see weaknesses. I may have missed something but I am unsure of the status of the fact-finding mission, whether it has a future or how can it be rebooted.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Can I come in, because I was not finished talking there?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I know the Tánaiste was also very keen that this issue be discussed at the Foreign Affairs Council of the European Union, which it has been. I am not sure of the extent to which conclusions meaningful conclusions have been reached. This is a clear role Ireland might have in ensuring the matter of Sudan is continuously placed on the monthly agenda for the Foreign Affairs Council. My apologies, Deputy Cronin should go ahead.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The Chair is fine and I do not want to make this meeting about anything else. This is a meeting on Sudan. However, looking at the big picture, the witnesses mentioned that arms are being sold by the same people to both sides. There is a lot of money to be made in war and that is why I would like to know if there anything we could do as a neutral country. I would like the witnesses' opinion on that, if they can answer.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

Before I pass over to my colleagues, I must inform the committee that at the UN General Assembly two weeks ago, leadership for peace and the protection of civilians were the big themes of Ireland's contributions during. It is very much about keeping that at the centre of our interventions on the global stage, and it is key that we sustain that. Ms de Barra might have a suggestion.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

It is about Ireland's reputation as a country that has experienced conflict, that understands what conflict resolution looks like that has an unbroken record of contributing to peacekeeping. That is what Ireland brings, rather than its status when it comes to neutrality. Ireland is a clear moral voice. I am sure it sometimes feels to our leaders like a lone moral voice. In the absence of these moral voices, however , the future of the multilateral system will be in even more peril than it already is, as the Deputy identified. It is Ireland's standing and the respect that Ireland has on those two points I mentioned that are its trump card. In some respects, Ireland brings that into Europe more than anywhere else. The system at the UN is so compromised. With Ireland not being on the UN Security Council at this point - not yet, and it will hopefully will be on the UN Human Rights Council - it can operate as well possible. Within the European Union is where these issues can be raised, however, through the EU Council, the Foreign Affairs Council and the work of our parliamentarians and representatives. Increasing pressure could be put on the EU's trading partners, for example.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

There are a couple of points we might come back to. On the violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law, it is very clear that is very much happening in Darfur and other parts of Sudan. We might take, for example, the destruction of health facilities. In parts of Darfur, 80% of the health facilities have been destroyed. Primarily, it is civilians and health workers who are being attacked. I know Mr. Regan particularly wants to come back to the protection of staff in those situations.

Mr. David Regan:

I thank the Deputy for the question. It is very difficult for our staff. We have many staff who are themselves displaced. They were in Khartoum but they had to flee because the city has been the centre of the war for the entire period. They are working with the displaced in the various camps. Their families are elsewhere. That is the reality for them. We have staff who work in Darfur who exit to Chad for a couple of days off and then go back into Darfur both for safety reasons and to get a break from the reality of bombardment. We are looking at aerial bombardment of the cities and towns we are working in as a common feature of life there at the moment for everybody, not just humanitarians but the entire population.

We have staff in the south of the country in the Kordofan area. They are working away there. The humanitarian access point the Deputy referred to is so relevant. We cannot get supplies to them. We cannot even reach them, and they cannot come out, but they are working as best they can with whatever supplies we can get to them through cash or through private sector transport to enable them to operate. We literally cannot get to them, and they cannot get out. They are there and they are working away. They are very brave because it is a difficult environment. It is important to raise that.

Would I say that the humanitarians in Sudan are being specifically targeted? I am not sure we would go there. It is the entire population that is being targeted, and quite deliberately, as Ms Walsh alluded to. We are seeing the burning of crops. That is nothing to do with anything other than trying to destroy an entire area of land to shift the population ruthlessly. That is what that is, and that is going on. I would say it is an attack on populations rather than humanitarians.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

I will make one additional point. The Deputy asked about Genocide Watch. That agency has reported that 20 humanitarian workers have been specifically targeted. To build on Mr. Regan's point, they are making judgment calls every day. They are making calls about whether they can go from A to B. In addition to the two main warring factions, there are many armed groups with which they have to negotiate and work on a daily basis. Mr. Regan made the point about their courage and commitment and resilience to staying the course and doing whatever needs to be done.

That is what we are here to do, and that is why we are grateful that the public and the Government continue to support the humanitarian organisations. However, it should be understood that we could not do what we do without their courage in being on the front line of this or without the partner agencies they work so closely with in the communities.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to ask again. It is my fault for not knowing the answer, because I know it has been given. I heard the Tánaiste speak during the summer about the international independent fact-finding mission for Sudan at the human rights council. He was very keen for there to be a renewal. Has that happened? If so, is there a change to the terms of reference? In what form and under what mandate is it back? Is it functioning as we speak?

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

That is still in process. One of the big issues that has always hindered the renewal of these mandates is resourcing. A practical thing Ireland could do to ensure the mandate's renewal is to offer funding and resourcing. It has just reported. We hope this is the first phase and that it will be renewed. Ireland can certainly help by being a vocal advocate for renewal and also by providing practical support. That could be the barrier or it could be the enabler.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That will be done in Geneva.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

Yes.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I have a final question. I am sorry if I drew things out for longer than was necessary but we have not had a discussion on Sudan for some time. I was very keen that we would and that the issues would be amplified. There is one area I might ask the witnesses to comment on. The external actors in the region are more than just the neighbours or people looking for land, occupying or invading. I mentioned the United Arab Emirates earlier. As Ms de Barra has said, it is a country with which Ireland has significant political and economic relations. Countries like Qatar, Egypt, Iran and Russia are all at least alleged to be involved in providing military equipment and arms to one side or the other. Has the Arab League been able to take a stance? I see reference to the African Union but it again is not involved in any meaningful way. Perhaps the leadership of the Arab League in Africa is in a position to take a stronger role. Is it involved in any way at the political level?

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

I do not have a direct answer regarding the Arab League. I simply am not informed as to the position it has taken. The question the Cathaoirleach began with is the really salient one. Where do our relationships lie with those who we know to be involved? There are six members of the Gulf Cooperation Council coming to Brussels next week to meet with the leaders of the European nations. These include Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Qatar. The conversation needs to at least start there, where we have those open relationships. There are politics within any bloc or group of countries. There are long-standing issues in respect of control and influence. Even in the context of the six members of the Gulf Cooperation Council, there are very strong tensions between some of those countries, which then play out in places like Sudan. It is about extending regional influence and providing support to a side that might result in access to ports, trade routes, minerals and so on. Starting with the relationships that Ireland and the EU have is what is most important.

Mr. David Regan:

The Cathaoirleach also asked whether there was an EU special representative for the region. There is an EU special representative for the Horn of Africa. She was here in Ireland a year or so ago. She met with us. I did not get the sense that there was enough focus on the region from the EU at a political level. That is what I took from the conversation.

From an Irish perspective, looking at the reality of that region, its proximity to Europe and the responsibility we have from a humanitarian perspective, it is a region in which we should play a role. There is no doubt that there are other actors who are not neighbouring countries who are playing a significant role there. We need to recognise that. As Ms de Barra has touched on, as a country that is respected and whose humanitarian voice is recognised, Ireland's voice is significant. We also have a role in the EU to push the political agenda in that domain and to refocus the European foreign policy agenda a little bit.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Notwithstanding the disappointment of the United Nations General Assembly, we can still see that the matter has been raised by Ireland. We hope we will have further opportunities in that regard. We are now in October and will have the October meetings of the European Council and the Foreign Affairs Council. It is my understanding that the Taoiseach and Tánaiste will be specifically raising the issue of Sudan in both of those forums. That is obviously something the witnesses would welcome. Unless Deputy Stanton has a further issue to raise-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I just want to thank our guests for their presentations and the work their people are doing. The situation looks intractable. It really looks very bad. It is one of the worst cases I have seen. I do not know. I like to have hope. We will have to explore the matter further and do anything further we can. Some of the suggestions we got here were to write to the Tánaiste and the Minister and to support the Government in what it is doing. If we have any contacts at the European level, perhaps we should also get involved there because this is just beyond awful.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I agree with that comment from the Deputy.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It is also worth mentioning that, while we talk a great deal about the number of refugees we have here in Ireland and how to manage them, the number of refugees in Africa is-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is staggering.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It is staggering. These countries are certainly doing their bit for their neighbours.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. To reiterate, we will go through the documentation, the witnesses' submissions and the notes and points we have taken from their most informative first-hand experiences. We are very keen to follow up at an early date with the Tánaiste, who will be coming here. We will forward a report in the form of recommendations from this meeting to the office of the Tánaiste and the Department of Foreign Affairs for consideration by the appropriate desk.

Before we leave, having regard to the importance of this meeting and notwithstanding the fact that Sudan is on the agenda, I am very keen to hear from the witnesses about the humanitarian situation in Lebanon. Deputy Cronin referred to this. Perhaps Ms Walsh and the other witnesses will have a brief, if stark, message for us regarding the situation in Lebanon and could advise what we, as an all-party parliamentary committee, could do in these circumstances.

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

This morning, our emergency director in Beirut was talking about the situation in Lebanon. It is another horrifying day in Lebanon. There have been 36 attacks on health facilities and 77 health workers have been killed. One of GOAL's partners, which has been deeply rooted in society there for many years, has seen 70% of its 1,000 staff and volunteers lose their homes and be dispersed. That is one of the humanitarian actors on the ground. The situation is the same in Gaza, where health facilities have been targeted overnight. To stick with Lebanon, 1.2 million people have been displaced because of the recent escalation. They are now facing new challenges. We are focusing much of our efforts on the south of Lebanon and the suburbs. I will make a couple of points on that. There are real concerns here about sectarian tensions.

What I mean is that as people are moving north, there are real concerns and there are people in Christian neighbourhoods who are scared about renting accommodation to families who are moving. They are asking if they will now become targets if they start to rent their homes. I point out the escalation in fear. This is not about people just being displaced and being accepted. There are many complex challenges.

Another point is that the health system in Lebanon is on its knees and is in serious trouble with shortages of staff and supplies. It was already challenged before this. I say this because we, with a Lebanese partner, were actually mapping the health system and analysing the resilience of the health system in Lebanon. That all paused in September because of the escalation. However, the statistics will come out. That health system already needed scaffolding. It was already stressed and under pressure. Unless we do something to urgently provide scaffolding to the health system, there is serious fear it will collapse. We are talking about approximately 10,000 critically wounded. With that number we need to do something. The minister at the Ministry of public health in Beirut has provided a list of what they need in terms of medical supplies and surgical equipment. The other issue is that many of the staff are now dispersed and so they have fewer staff to respond.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Walsh saying the health system has collapsed?

Ms Siobhan Walsh:

It is close. I am not saying it has. I am saying it is severely stressed. It already was. That is why we were doing the work analysing the health system in Lebanon, and why we are saying we need to provide funding to support that before there is further destruction of that health system. It is under severe tension and stress. Access to communities is also absolutely vital. We have launched an appeal to look for support to communities that are displaced, for food supplies and non-food items and parcels that are critically needed in these early days of families being displaced. It is an alarming situation unfolding and people are desperate.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for raising this matter. What we see unfolding in Lebanon is what unfolded in Gaza at the beginning. We thought there would be a day after in Gaza, and now it looks like there will never be a day after in Gaza. It looks like the intent is to make Gaza completely unliveable. New things come every day. Even this morning, there was a report on Al Jazeera about the amount of asbestos that has been released by the bombing over the past year. This in itself will cause catastrophic levels of cancer. The whole territory will become a territory where people cannot live even if there were a cessation of hostilities in the morning.

With respect to Lebanon, everything described by Ms Walsh is what we are seeing with our staff and partners on the ground. It is a horrifying prospect. Lebanon was in crisis beforehand. Again, it is easy to start a war, but it is not so easy to finish one. You cannot delink what is happening in Lebanon from what is happening in the occupied Palestinian territories. That is extremely important. These things cannot be taken in part. It is important to bear in mind that while Israel has a right to defend itself from the rockets being fired by Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran, there has to be proportionality under international law and the laws of war. The targeting of civilian infrastructure, objects indispensable to civilian survival, is illegal. It is illegal for anyone to do that, whether it is Israel, Hezbollah or Hamas. Israel is doing it on a scale that is catastrophic. That needs to be recognised.

On what Ireland can do, this all links back to Israel's perspective on its own territory and its need to protect its people. Of course, the right to self-defence is there. The right of those people to move back to their homes is there, but it is not going to be achieved through military means. There needs to be a ceasefire and pressure for a ceasefire.

Israel has not responded to external pressure so far. I am speaking on behalf of Trócaire, which believes there needs to be signals that there are economic consequences to Israel's actions in the occupied Palestinian territories. The International Court of Justice advisory opinion released at the end of July is important because it says in unequivocal terms that the occupation of the occupied territories is illegal, the existence of settlements is illegal, and it is actually illegal to trade with those settlements. We think Ireland has an opportunity here. It is difficult at EU level, but Ireland has an opportunity to make that point extremely clear by looking at the occupied territories Bill, and ideally by introducing measures before the end of this Government that make it clear Ireland will not be party to the illegal occupation of those settlements. At EU level, the legal advice to Josep Borrell is seemingly extremely weak on the issue of settlements and trade with settlements. It is extremely clear with recognition of the pre-1967 borders, but it seems quite weak. This is perhaps something Ireland could investigate and challenge at the level of the Foreign Affairs Council. To what degree is the EU actually listening to the ICJ's advisory opinion, and how can that be used as a lever to get Israel to listen to international opinion? At the moment not enough is being done. We hope our Taoiseach will have some degree of influence when he meets with President Biden today, but at the moment not enough is being done to pressure Israel to realise the right to self-defence is not absolute, and you cannot have disproportionality in conflict.

Mr. David Regan:

Most of what needs to be said, has been said. I echo the comments of Ms Walsh and Ms de Barra on the situation. Concern certainly has a real fear about where this is headed. You look at Gaza and where that has got to. You look at Lebanon and you really wonder where this is headed.

We worked in the south for the past number of years dealing with some of those displaced by shelling across the border. The partners we worked with have had to flee. They have had to go because, as Ms Walsh described, it is no longer safe to be in the region. We work in the north with Syrian refugees and have done so for a decade. There were 1 million Syrian refugees in Lebanon, a country of 5 million. It is estimated that 400,000 have gone back after a decade. The committee knows why they have left. It was not because Syria was a good place to be from their perspective. They have gone back. It gives a sense of the terror that is being unleashed. What we are seeing in the north of the country where we are working with them, is a mass displacement of people from the south of Lebanon to the north. They are sleeping on pavements. They are looking for water and food. They are people not used to this level of need, and they are struggling. We are trying to work with the global community to rehabilitate schools, to accommodate them, to provide mattresses, basic water, and some cash. That is what our team on the ground in Lebanon is doing. At the same time, Tripoli, the city where they are primarily based, was bombed recently. They are also in fear there. Our country director is based in Beirut, and we all know what is happening in Beirut. It is quite a frightening situation for the Lebanese population and the portents are unfortunately very worrying.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna:

Before we finish, I extend my sincere thanks to the committee for inviting us here. The conflict in the Middle East is on our screens every day, but we appreciate that the committee is taking the issue of Sudan forward in particular. I do not want to say it is a forgotten crisis, because we are here talking about it today. However, it is often the add-on to everything else as opposed to the focus of a discussion. I appreciate the time taken, and the time this committee has taken to consider our recommendations, to understand the perspective we have on this conflict, what can be done and in particular the areas where we feel Ireland could step forward and has stepped forward on a global stage. We would really like to see that continued and sustained in the future. We will follow with the statements made today, but the testimonies were also mentioned, and we will work with our members to provide those.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. The committee has some private business to do.

I reiterate my thanks to the witnesses for coming in at such a level as they have and sharing with us what has been a pretty stark and shocking session from a humanitarian point of view. As Deputy Cronin said earlier, it is one of many crises, regrettably, in our world but certainly Sudan should not be forgotten or labelled as such. I would expect that as soon as we have a report from the Department of Foreign Affairs, we will be back in contact with the witnesses. In the meantime, I wish them Godspeed.

Before we go, I wish to mention that Deputy Devlin, who appeared on our screens earlier, is taking over from one of the members who has left us and is now a full member of this committee, as is Deputy Troy. We look forward to welcoming both Deputies Devlin and Troy at our next face-to-face meeting.