Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of today's meeting is the Agriculture Appeals (Amendment) Bill 2024. The meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Agriculture Appeals (Amendment) Bill 2024. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, and his officials, Mr. David O'Loughlin, legal services, Ms Ruth Kinehan, assistant principal, appeals office, and Ms Lynda O’Regan, director of agriculture appeals. We will now proceed to consideration of the Bill. I invite the Minister to make an opening statement.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Deputy Kenny again to the role of Opposition spokesperson on agriculture, food and the marine and wish him well. He was always good to work with in the past. He is an able operator.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. I am pleased to be here today for Committee Stage of the Agriculture Appeals (Amendment) Bill 2024. The Bill amends the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001, its primary purpose being the establishment of an independent agriculture appeals review panel. As Deputies will be aware, the current programme for Government includes a commitment to establish such a panel in law. I am delighted to deliver on that commitment. The main purpose of this review panel will be to conduct reviews of the decisions of appeals officers, a function currently carried out by the director of agriculture appeals. As provided for in the Bill, the review panel will consist of the following seven members: an independent chairperson; the director or deputy director of the agriculture appeals office; and five additional members with experience relevant to the functions of the panel. The establishment of this panel will further enhance the independence of the appeals process and provide greater reassurance to the farming community. The Bill also introduces a time limit of six months for seeking a review of a decision of an appeals officer where there was no time limit in place before.

As an entirely separate measure, the Bill also includes an amendment to the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1997. This is a minor amendment to remove the existing requirement for the chair and members of the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board to vacate office on reaching 70 years of age. It is my intention to introduce one further amendment to the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1997 on Report Stage to alter the tenure of the chairperson of the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board from the current default period of five years to a period not exceeding five years to align with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies.

I am conscious of the views expressed by members on Second Stage of this Bill and by stakeholders throughout lengthy consultations on the Bill. I am grateful for that input. I sought to accommodate as many of the suggestions as possible from the committee as part of pre-legislative scrutiny and earlier Stages of the Bill in the structure of the Bill. I thank everyone for their engagement so far and thank the committee for facilitating Committee Stage today.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that the Minister took on board some amendments suggested in our previous discussion of the Bill. It is unusual to have a Bill on Committee Stage with no amendments. If members want to speak about any part of the Bill, they are free to do so. We will not take amendments this evening as there are none listed. Report Stage will be taken in the Chamber if members want to table amendments. I hope I am not being presumptuous but I think there is general cross-party support for the Bill. It has been long promised. It is good to see it finally come to fruition.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister and his staff for coming in to the committee. Probably everyone in the committee does a good few appeals. I find them pretty quick, in fairness. It can happen to anybody and was not a reflection on the person in the appeal I was involved in.

If an independent appeals officer happens to become sick, which is not his or her fault - I am not taking aim at anyone - there can a missing link in this regard such that no one else can take over the case. Someone, through no fault of his or her own, could be out for a year - anyone can get sick - and a person could be left waiting and waiting. Is there anything the Department can do to cover that part of it? That is all. I attend a lot of oral appeals and, in fairness, they are pretty quick. I could never fault any of them, or even the officials from the Department of Agriculture who are up against you. Everyone always shows up. I find an oral appeal very good. This is one issue I have found, however. It is not a criticism. I saw one instance in which a case took a long time.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I might ask my official, Ms Lynda O’Regan, to respond to that.

Ms Lynda O'Regan:

I thank the Deputy. In the case to which he is referring, from my knowledge, the oral hearing has been held. It is quite difficult to reassign it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I do not want to go over it, nor am I saying-----

Ms Lynda O'Regan:

Absolutely. Normally, we reassign the cases if an appeals officer goes on sick leave. In this case, the oral hearing had been held. We did not want to mess the farmer around by reassigning the case again. The sick leave extended longer than we thought it would. I apologise for that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, it can happen. Is there anything that can be looked at again in respect of appeals when someone, through no fault of his or her own, becomes sick, be that the appeals officer or someone else? The appeals officer is really the relevant person.

Ms Lynda O'Regan:

Absolutely. We can reassign it to another appeals officer. It may be the case that another oral hearing would have to be held as the appeals officer to which the case has been reassigned was not present at the first hearing. We can certainly look at that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank Ms O'Regan.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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In subsection (2)(a), on page 5, where it states, "it appears to the Review Panel that the decision was erroneous by reason of a mistake of law or fact", can we include-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Where are you in the Bill, Deputy Mythen?

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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On page 5, section 10A(2).

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That is in section 9. You will have to wait. That issue will be addressed when we get to section 9.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, no bother.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Cathaoirleach wish for me to provide a quick narrative of each of the sections as we go along? I have a short explainer of three or four lines for each section. Would that be helpful?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 5 amends the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 by the insertion of section 4A providing for the establishment of an agriculture appeals review panel and its functions to conduct reviews of the decisions of appeals officers.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 6 amends section 8 of the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 by providing that oral hearings may be held in person or, subject to agreement of the parties, remotely by electronic means. That is only subject to agreement of the parties. This provision was amended following pre-legislative scrutiny and a recommendation from the joint committee here that hearings should only be held remotely by electronic means with the agreement of the parties. Based on that recommendation, this wording came forward.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 7 amends section 9 of the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 by providing that the decision of an appeals officer under section 7 is final, subject to a review by the agriculture appeals review panel and the existing right of appeal to the High Court. The purpose of this amendment is to replace the right of review to the director with a right of review to the agriculture appeals review panel. Previously, the director dealt with the appeals. It will now be the new panel we are setting up which will deal with appeals. That also includes a right of appeal to the High Court, which is always standard for anything. On a point of law, people always have that right. Obviously, that is not the design or objective, but it is a right in all things to be able to appeal ultimately to a court if a person so wishes on a point law.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 8 amends section 10 of the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 and introduces a time limit of six months for seeking a review of an appeal officer's decision pursuant to section 10 where the was no time limit in place before. It provides that the decision of an appeals officer under section 10 is final, subject to a review to the agriculture appeals review panel and the High Court, of course. It clarifies that any reference to a revised decision in this section includes the decision not to revise a decision.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have a question on that. Generally, when dealing with the Department regarding a review, be it in Portlaoise, Wexford or wherever, am I correct that an appeal must be made within three months to the appeals office? Is that after the oral hearing is over?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. It is at that point, not before it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. Is it six months after that point?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is six months after the decision following the oral hearing.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. Lovely.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Mythen wished to make a point on section 9.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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In section 9 where it states "it appears to the Review Panel that the decision was erroneous by reason of a mistake of law or fact", can we add "or on material error of fact"? Material error of fact is a separate ground of review based on the principles of fairness where a mistake has had a material effect upon the decision and the action taken.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Currently, section 9 amends the previous Act in order that the panel may conduct a review of a decision or a revised decision of an appeals officer where it appears to the agriculture appeals review panel that there is an error in fact or in law in the decision, provided the request for the review is requested within six months. It is where there is an error in fact or in information. That is accommodated in this section.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I just wish to add "material error of fact" as well to it. Basically, it is a separate ground where a review is based on the principles of fairness. That is the definition. The Minister can look at the definition. I suggest he looks at that. I would appreciate it.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What is Deputy Mythen saying?

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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We should include "or on a material error of fact" after "mistake of law or fact" in the section.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We think that is already covered in section 10.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It gives greater scope. If someone is losing property or land or anything like that, that is the material stuff and it has an effect on that position. It is important. The wording is limited without that included.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We think that is already covered in section 10 but we will certainly reflect on the Deputy's point in advance of Report Stage and be in a position to respond or take it on board.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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On Deputy Mythen's point, if we agree this section now, will the Minister come back to us so that we can put forward amendments on Report Stage? Is that what the Minister is saying?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot put it through now because there is no amendment. Obviously, it is open to Deputy Mythen to put forward that amendment.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Provided it has been discussed here.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, provided it has been discussed. Now that the Deputy has raised the matter, that gives him the platform to table an amendment. We will certainly consider the points he has made in advance of that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I appreciate that. Will the Minister look at the issue ahead of Report Stage?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 10 amends the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 by expanding the existing right of appeal to the High Court on decisions of appeals officers to also include decisions of the agriculture appeals review panel on a question of law. It also provides that the director of agriculture appeals shall be named as respondent to any appeal to the High Court in respect of the decision of an appeals officer, but not of the agriculture appeals review panel. Again, this is simply to provide ultimate recourse to the courts on a point of law, should someone so wish. Obviously, that is not the objective here but it is a right everyone has and that is vindicated in this legislation.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 11 amends section 14 of the 2001 Act by providing additional reporting obligations on the director of agriculture appeals to include the activities of the agriculture appeals review panel. This places an obligation on the director to report on the activities of the review panel. It is straightforward.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 12 provides mandatory obligations on the chair, deputy chair and members of the appeals review panel and the forestry appeals committee in respect of the disclosure of confidential information, providing for criminal offences where these obligations are breached. It means the chair, deputy chair and members of the committee must make full disclosure on anything that is relevant.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 13 amends the 2001 Act by providing the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine with the power to make regulations in relation to oral hearings and the provision of information, and the practice and procedures applicable to the functioning of the agriculture appeals review panel. The section gives the Minister the power to make regulations on how the review panel would operate and flow.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Reading the transcript of the meeting on pre-legislative scrutiny, I noted the number of people that a farmer can bring to an appeal. Farmers will often bring their agricultural adviser or planner and one of us cowboys could ride in too. Is the number limited or set in the legislation? Is that what is intended here?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is no limit on the number.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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A farmer can bring along anyone with expertise or who can be of assistance.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We discussed that aspect the previous day and decided it would be better to leave the matter open.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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That is perfect.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Minister can set regulations. Can he say on what he would base them?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, regulations would be set in compliance with the legislation. Basically, if there are other rules and regulations needed as to how a hearing can be conducted or managed, they would be fleshed out.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will force majeure and the like still count?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. That would be in the original schemes, so people would appeal on that basis, yes. It is simple housekeeping stuff.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 14 inserts Schedule 3 after Schedule 2, providing for the composition and appointment of the chair and members of the agriculture appeals review panel, including the appointment of deputy chairpersons, the tenure of the members, provisions regarding their resignation, dismissal, remuneration and allowances, and terms and conditions of office. It also provides requirements for the conduct of meetings, decision-making, sitting in divisions, and regarding correspondence between the agriculture appeals review panel and parties to a review, as well as its independence and the procedures concerning any conflicts of interest. It is a Schedule to cover those points.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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There are to be at least five ordinary members. Is there a definition of that? The Schedule lists "at least 2 persons with practical knowledge or experience of farming".

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is in the legislation.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Section 2(2)(b) provides that the Minister "shall include, among the persons appointed under clause (a), at least 2 persons with practical knowledge or experience of farming".

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We went through that the previous day.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We discussed the last day whether farm organisations should have definitive nominating powers. We felt that it was better to leave this more open but that two appointees had to be people who had those competencies. That was a much more straightforward of doing it.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 15 provides for the transitional arrangements after the commencement of section 9 of the Bill, permitting requests for reviews of decisions of appeals officers to the agriculture appeals review panel. It specifically provides for arrangements relating to decisions and appeals in existence before the commencement of section 9, and allows for the review of those pre-existing decisions by the agriculture appeals review panel in specified circumstances, where a request for review is made within 12 months of the commencement of section 9. Basically, it provides for transitional arrangements in the period between the new system coming in and the old system changing. It also allows 12 months for somebody to make an appeal in that scenario during that transition.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Section 16, which is Part 3, amends section 24 of the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1997 by removing the requirement that the chair and members of the Aquaculture Licenses Appeals Board vacate their office on attaining the age of 70 years. Basically, it means that somebody over 70 years can be a member of the appeals board, which I think is absolutely fair.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank members for the assessment the committee did in advance and its pre-legislative report, which we sought to accommodate as best possible. I look forward to trying to bring this legislation through the Dáil and Seanad over the next period.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.