Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 25 September 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach
Engagement with Office of Public Works
1:30 pm
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have received apologies from Senator Higgins. Previous to this meeting, in a private meeting, we adopted the minutes of the meeting of 18 September 2024.
I draw the attention of members and witnesses to the note on privilege. Witnesses who are present on the Leinster House campus are covered by full privilege. Those who are not attending in person may only be covered by partial privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On behalf of the committee, I welcome the OPW today. I understand Mr. Conlon is going to give his opening statement now.
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank the committee for its invitation to attend this afternoon. It is my first opportunity to address the committee since my appointment as Chairman in April. I am joined by colleagues from the management board of the Office of Public Works.
I will start by addressing the bicycle shelter at Leinster House. This has been the source of considerable concern for the political system and the general public. I very much welcome the opportunity to explain, in person, to you, the circumstances around the construction of this project. First, I understand the anger and frustration of both elected representatives and the public. I want to make clear that I am taking immediate steps to ensure that this does not happen again.
As Accounting Officer for the OPW I acknowledge that, while the costs for this project can be explained, the overall cost of delivering this bicycle shelter is not acceptable in the wider context of value for money and value for the taxpayer. It is an extraordinary cost for the provision of a bicycle shelter and one which the OPW must reflect on. I have set out in the review that the project was delivered on foot of a specific request from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to provide covered bicycle parking on the Merrion Square side of Leinster House. The design of the facility was conservation-led, with the main focus of being to provide a solution that met the client needs.
I am taking immediate measures to ensure that, in future, the value for money aspect of projects of this scale is more front and centre in our processes. I have revised downwards the project approval thresholds that currently apply and I am also putting in place new governance measures to ensure that management board members oversee and approve all works above €200,000. This essential step will provide me with the assurance as Accounting Officer that public funds entrusted to the OPW are being spent effectively.
In future, the OPW will ensure that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is fully informed of costs for all elective projects in Leinster House. This will ensure the decision-making process is more robust. To ensure that the OPW can build on the lessons learned from this project, I have engaged an external auditor to provide advice to me on additional measures that I should take to ensure that the value for money objective is given due weight throughout the whole project appraisal process for projects below €500,000 and this work will include an audit of this project.
In conclusion on this issue, as Accounting Officer I want to acknowledge that it was a failure on the part of the OPW not to inform the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission of the cost of the project.
As Accounting Officer, I am here to take responsibility today.
I will now address the other matters that the committee wishes to consider. The OPW is leading a proactive, whole-of-government approach to managing flood risk across three areas covering prevention, protection and preparedness. The Government has committed €1.3 billion over the lifetime of the national development plan to protect approximately 23,000 homes and businesses in communities under threat from river and coastal flood risk. Nationally, 55 schemes have been completed at a cost of €550 million, which are providing protection to more than 13,000 properties and an economic benefit to the State in damages and losses avoided estimated at €2 billion. The OPW recently gave approval for the construction of the King’s Island flood relief scheme in County Limerick. This, when completed, will protect 528 homes and businesses. The scheme at Crossmolina, County Mayo, recently received confirmation to progress. The OPW now plans to construct this scheme. When completed, this will protect 116 homes and businesses. A substantial body of work has been undertaken in the past few months on progressing interim flood measures at both Lough Funshinagh in County Roscommon and Midleton in County Cork, following the recent severe flooding at both locations. With regard to coastal erosion, the OPW is the national lead body for the assessment of coastal change and risks and the assessment of technical constraints.
The OPW was granted planning permission by An Bord Pleanála on 28 March 2024 for the development of a national children's science centre at a site adjacent to the National Concert Hall in Earlsfort Terrace. The conditions of this planning are being reviewed by the OPW. The project is the subject of ongoing arbitration between the National Children’s Science Centre and the Commissioners of Public Works. The arbitrator issued an interim decision on 25 June 2022 and found in favour of the applicant, the Irish Children’s Science Centre. This has reinforced a legally binding commitment on the OPW to construct the centre in accordance with the planning permission granted. The next step in the arbitration process is the arbitrator will reconvene the parties to the case now that planning permission has been secured and will issue further direction regarding specific performance of the contract. No provision for the development of this project was made in the NDP due to the ongoing arbitration process and uncertainty about the timing of this project. While there is a legally binding contract, the OPW and I are conscious of the concerns raised by Deputies that this project should be subject to robust value for money analysis before Exchequer funding can be committed to the development of the project. The issue of funding for the project will be considered by the OPW and the relevant funding Department in due course. I thank the Chairman and the committee members for their time and welcome their questions.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Conlon. I propose to take the issue of the cost of the bicycle shelter as the first topic. We can then deal with the other matters with the agreement of members. The clerk to the committee has listed Deputies Doherty, Tóibín, Matthews, Conway-Walsh, MacSharry, Senator Sherlock, and Deputies Durkan and Boyd Barrett in that order. Before I call Deputy Doherty, will Mr. Conlon tell me why we received the opening statement and reports at 9.15 this morning and not earlier, as is usual?
Mr. John Conlon:
I apologise for the lateness of the submission of both my opening statement and the review I completed and gave to the Minister late yesterday. I wanted to ensure the committee got both documents together rather than one after the other. I acknowledge that it is discourteous to the committee that it only came this morning. The reason it only came this morning is I only gave the review to the Minister late last evening.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a fact that Mr. Conlon had to give it to the Minister first?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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But why would Mr. Conlon give it to him first?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Had he intentions to adjust some part of the report?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is not usual. When you are appearing before an Oireachtas committee, you should deliver the reports and paperwork to the committee secretariat the evening before.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Mr. Conlon will take a note of that for the future.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will follow up on that. When Mr. Conlon furnished that report to the Minister, did he do it in a meeting?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Has he accepted the report, or has he suggested that additional work is carried out on the back of what he has read?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is it. Does Mr. Conlon accept that at a cost of €336,000, the bike shed was a waste of taxpayers' money?
Mr. John Conlon:
I accept that it is a very high cost for delivery of a covered bicycle shelter where it is. I have set out in my review what drove the costs of the project. It was conservation-led. It was procured in a certain way. It had materials that were in keeping with the environment around it. In that context, the costs were driven by the design and driven by the aspects of where it was located. From that perspective, I accept it is a very expensive shelter, but it was procured in a way that was competitive. It was procured in a way that was cost competitive, but the design and conservation drove the cost to the level it is at. As I acknowledged in my report, it is an expensive cost for a bike shelter in that context. I accept that.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon. Does he accept that a cost of €336,000 to the taxpayer for this bike shed was a waste of taxpayers' money?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Given that it did not achieve value for money, is it a waste? Mr. Conlon is the Accounting Officer for this agency. He is accountable. Was taxpayers' money wasted, in his view?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Conlon were alerted to the cost of this bike shed at €336,000, would he have continued with the project?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Would he have continued with the project, given everything he knows now?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly, and I am giving Mr. Conlon the benefit of hindsight. I want to know if lessons are being learned. Would he have continued with the project, or would he have stopped this project?
Mr. John Conlon:
The first thing I would have done was to make sure the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission was advised of it, and to take its input first. That is an important lesson to learn from this. It is a failure I have acknowledged in my opening statement. It should have happened and there should have been some judgment check on the costs at that stage. I fully accept that.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is important in this, but the OPW is the most important party. It spent the money, designed the bike shed, issued the contract and decided not to go to tender. It is the OPW that signed off on this and handed out taxpayers' money. Because Mr. Conlon has now reviewed all of this process and talked to the principal parties, I would like to know, outside of telling people about it, would he have stopped this project?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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As the boss, would he have stopped it?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon would question it in the context of asking if they could get this any cheaper, and he would be told it had been put out to tender and they were going with the lowest price and all that. They would have informed him of all that information we see in his review. What would he have done then?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I understand. In his view, were the appropriate processes and procedures followed?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon said, "had regard to the processes and procedures." He is now asking for an independent auditor to pass judgment on whether the appropriate processes and procedures were followed. In his view, did they just have regard to them, or did they follow them?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean? I do not want to split hairs, but I do not understand. Will he answer my question? Did they follow the procedures or not? The question he is asking the independent auditor, which more taxpayers' money is being spent on to find out how this went wrong, is if the appropriate processes and procedures were followed. I am asking Mr. Conlon. He has reviewed all of the documents. He has interviewed all of the parties involved in this and is the senior accounting person in the agency. Were the appropriate processes and procedures followed in his opinion?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that is just basically telling people what OPW is doing, the upfront part of it. We would expect that if the OPW were to tell the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission that it was planning to build a bike shed for €336,000 - I will come to that number again because the OPW actually expected it to cost a good deal more than that - the commission would ask those in the OPW if they were off their head. That is what would happen. Really, that is a secondary protection. In respect of the OPW, which spends hundreds of millions if not billions of euros of taxpayers money, we need to know it is getting value for money because we cannot be told of every single project it is spending money on. I am concerned that Mr. Conlon is saying that the processes and procedures were followed and that the only thing the OPW would have done differently would have been to ensure other people were informed of the cost. It seems this bike shed would have gone ahead even with what we know now.
Mr. John Conlon:
What I am saying quite clearly is that the processes and procedures were followed by the officials concerned. There could have been a stronger emphasis on the cost in the business case at this stage when the original costings were done. That should have been highlighted up to the senior managers at that stage to bring them into the loop. That is something I am also addressing in my recommendations. That is a weakness I can find in retrospect that should have happened at the time and I want that to be stronger in projects of this type going forward.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon says the assessment by the OPW should have placed greater emphasis on the value for money aspects of the project. Was there any emphasis or concern about value for money? When this assessment was carried out, the "simple assessment" as Mr. Conlon describes it, was value for money on the radar at all? Was there a box that had to be ticked?
I will give Mr. Conlon an example. I asked the OPW, through the Minister, to address an issue of flooding in the Clady River. It failed. Why? It was because of the cost-benefit analysis. What happened after was five houses were flooded and the money we were looking was less than the cost of the bike shed. We could not protect houses in my constituency because of the cost-benefit analysis in the Department. I want to know if there was any value for money appraisal. Mr. Conlon says there should be a greater emphasis on that aspect. Was there any emphasis on it?
Mr. John Conlon:
A basic assessment was done which had regard to the request that came from the Oireachtas for a covered bike shelter. In my view, it was not strong enough. It is easy to say in retrospect that it was not strong enough. I want to ensure we make the cost assessments for these types of projects more robust going forward and that is what I want to do.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon also said in his opening statement that the value for money aspect should have been more front and centre. I am asking whether it was on the page at all. This is the review. I expected something completely different from Mr. Conlon in the review. I want the documentation. This will either be through a freedom of information request or Mr. Conlon will give all of the documentation to the committee, and I request that Mr. Conlon give all of the documentation to the committee. I want to see the simple assessment. Was there any reference to taxpayers' money and value for money when this assessment signed off on a bike shed which was costing nearly €400,000? That is the simple question to Mr. Conlon. Was there any reference?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Conlon explain that to the committee?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The cost assessment at that point was that the project could cost €397,250.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is €397,250. That is what Mr. Conlon's officials estimated this bike shed would cost at that time.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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We have got that. We have got the request from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission for a covered bike shelter. We have now got the cost estimated by Mr. Conlon's officials that this will cost €397,250-----
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What was the next step? Was there somewhere in that document which says this is value for money, this is not value for money, or this is off-your-head stuff? Was there any reference in this simple assessment, as Mr. Conlon calls it, to value for money?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There was something there, was there?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What did it say?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Did it address the issue of value for money?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Conlon provide that document?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Conlon ask one of his officials to provide that document to the committee?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I thank Mr. Conlon. On these measured term maintenance contracts, and I will not have a chance to go through all of these costs but some of these costs I think are baffling, to tell the truth, some of these costs went to other suppliers. The big shelter, the structure as we see it, was not done by the main contractor. Somebody else did it. They came and installed it. It was the same way with the granite landscaping. This company provided the granite landscaping and installed it. The contractor then gets all of the other bits and pieces - the landscaping, the ducting, the power and the day works, which we can come back to. This all emerges from these measured term maintenance contracts. This contract was entered into with the supplier in November 2021 and became operational in 2022.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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But it was entered into in 2021.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Who is the contractor?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Sensori Group?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Sensori Group is well known in these Houses for other reasons. The owner of that company at the time of the tender was a political donor to the Minister in this Department and that became a subject of controversy earlier.
These contracts and how they are operated are supposed to be for routine maintenance services and all the rest. Is it not the case that the Comptroller and Auditor General has called out the OPW with regard to these contracts?
Mr. John Conlon:
The C and AG raised concerns with the procurement which were addressed when we re-tendered that measured term contract in November 2021. It is a contract that provides us with a quick and efficient response across a wide range of areas for the delivery of services in the Dublin region where we have a huge number of properties. It allows us to do small and reactive call-outs, which we do every day. These are minor repairs of windows, plumbing, door handle repairs and that type of stuff. It allows us to plan maintenance work such as gutter cleaning and roof maintenance and allows us to do some small-scale projects.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is what we expect from those contracts and it makes sense for that, but we are talking about a €400,000 bike shed or, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said before, the OPW offering contracts of €2.5 million euros under these contracts, which is not allowed.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Up to €1 million. Before that it used to be half a million and the OPW were offering contracts of €2.5 million. Is that not correct?
Mr. John Conlon:
From my understanding, that criticism by the C and AG - I was not in the office at the time - I think it related to the placing of Brexit works in particular at that time which was done on an urgent needs basis, which meant that a lot of work was put through that contract at that time in that way.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It talks about the value of the contract being €3 million per annum whereas the total amount ended up being €40 million, which is €10 million per annum or three times more. If a local group in my constituency in Donegal wants to buy a lawnmower to cut the grass out in front of a housing estate, it has to get three tenders. The OPW does not have to do that at all for a bike shed because it can do it under this contract. The OPW had the option to put this work out to tender and it decided not to. Does the OPW regret the fact this was not the case?
Mr. John Conlon:
I would make it very clear that this contract provides us with a quick and efficient response to doing many projects up to a value of €1 million.
We have done approximately 161 projects in the past three years since the contract started for small-scale works, at an average cost of €136,000. We have done over 2,800 planned maintenance projects under this contract for an average cost of €5,800. We have done almost 8,500 works calls on small-scale reactive cases, which I spoke about initially, at an average cost of €280. It provides us flexibility to do a lot of small, planned and minor-scale works.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish on this. We are talking about the back of Leinster House and the bike shed. That is an absolute waste of taxpayers' money. Was it the OPW that built the siopa at the front of Leinster House?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The glass structure at the front of Leinster House.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That was ten years ago, in 2014, is that not the case? On lessons learned, how much did that project overrun by?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It overran by €500,000, that is, half a million euro. It cost €1.4 million. It was probably the most expensive shop in Dublin and in Ireland. It is 40 sq. m and has lain idle for years. Where are the lessons learned? There is a commonality here and I could go through numerous other examples. The Garda headquarters were built by the OPW. I raised it here at the committee a couple of times. It does not even accommodate the number of gardai that we need. I am aware Mr. Conlon is new to the Department but he is representing the OPW. Where are the lessons learned when taxpayers' money is wasted building a shop out the front that goes half a million over budget and a bike shed out the back that came in under budget, from what the OPW expected to spend on it, which is bizarre but is a complete waste of taxpayers' money?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na finnéithe as na cuir i láthair. The current anger and frustration among the public about this is palpable. The reason is that this issue is not unique. The Gucci bike shed is simply the tip of the iceberg regarding Government waste and public delivery of infrastructure. It is really damaging for citizens because we are incinerating hard-earned taxpayers' money. Moreover, as the delivery of infrastructure is grinding to a halt, people cannot consume the infrastructure they need. The bike shed is emblematic of all that. It is amazing that in the four-page document we received from the OPW, nowhere did it say who was the contractor that delivered the project. It is startling that the individual contractor that delivered that project was not named anywhere.
There are two elements to my questioning and why that is important. I want to look at the political oversight and the actual oversight within the OPW. The owner of Sensori was within the public domain in the Oireachtas in a big way for making corporate donations to a senior Minister who did not record those properly with the Standards in Public Office Commission. That was a serious issue at the time. I know, from looking at the diary of that Minister, namely, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, who is now the senior Minister in charge of the OPW, that he met the owner of Sensori in the same month that Sensori won the contract with the OPW. The owner of Sensori then sold his 50% share in December for €23 million at a profit of €17 million. That contract elevated the net worth of Sensori one month after the contract was won and one month after the owner met the Minister.
Has the current Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Donohoe, been in contact with the OPW at any stage regarding these procurement measures for the rolling contracts with these two suppliers?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister is not here to defend himself, we may have to ask him to come in to do so, if he wishes
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It would be beneficial if the Minister came in to answer that question.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Tóibín is straying away from the bicycle shed in the short time that he has.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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As this relates to that particular contract and it is at the start of the process, Mr. Conlon might answer that question.
Mr. John Conlon:
I emphasise that the contract for the measured term maintenance contract was an open contract that was competitively tendered in the appropriate and proper way. It was evaluated and awarded in the proper way. I need to emphasise that because I do not want to get sucked into any political discussion on this. It was a contract which we procured in full accordance with the Office of Government Procurement guidelines. It was properly evaluated and awarded. As I said earlier, there are two contractors in the Dublin region, one for the north and one for the south. That is all I can say on that.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Can the Chairman provide the details of that tender document to the committee in order that we also can have a look at it?
I have one question relating to the multi-party framework procurement process. The office came up with the idea that this was going to cost €350,000. People would be surprised by that because when you procure something for your household, you do not say that you want something and you are willing to pay €350,000 for it and ask how much you will be charged for it. The person who is tendering will probably say he or she will charge €350,000 for that. People are frustrated because the figure was not generated by an individual, private company. The outrageous figure we are talking about emanated from the OPW itself. Is that correct?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I have a very short time.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Is there anything within that individual's job spec or contract that indicates this person has a responsibility to ensure value for money for the taxpayer?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I want to know the actual contract. There has to be a contractual responsibility by each individual in those scenarios to protect taxpayers' money. Is there anything in their job spec or contract to protect taxpayers' money?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I understand that but we need individuals to be personally responsible for the work they deliver. If people do not fulfil their contracts, then there is a personal responsibility and a form of discipline at some level, up to and including, necessarily, some people losing their jobs on certain occasions. If there is no cost for individuals in terms of waste of taxpayers' money, there will be no change and we will be back here over and over again. Would it be possible to find out if there is anything in the contract or job spec relating to a responsibility to provide value for money for the taxpayer? Mr. Conlon might provide that information to-----
Mr. John Conlon:
I am not sure if there is a specific clause but to be clear, I am conscious of ensuring that when it comes to identifying people, we treat public servants with respect and the basic principles of fair treatment. I do not want to individualise this issue to that person. I am here to account for the OPW and will do so. I accept it is a legitimate thing for the Deputy's parliamentary scrutiny but I do not want to individualise it to one person.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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On my next question, it seems as though the company that was contracted for this, Sensori, outsourced the job and tendered externally for four suppliers. Is that correct?
Mr. John Conlon:
The reason for that is that the measured term contract provides, in that contract, a list of prices for a list of products, etc. The two issues that were tendered for in this case, namely, the steelworks and the granite, were not part of that and were tendered to the market in a competitive way by that contractor.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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In other words, we outsourced the tendering of the taxpayers' money for this. Not only was our own oversight of potential waste internally very poor in this situation, but we actually gave it to someone else to tender and for taxpayers' money to be spent in this scenario.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Does Mr. Conlon think it is a good idea to put tendering at arms' length in the future with regard to these costs?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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How do we know it is done competitively if we are not doing it?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Is the quantity surveyor working for Sensori or the OPW?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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For who?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Is the surveyor an employee of the OPW then?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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So we also outsource the quantity surveyor in that regard.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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This is incredible that we are outsourcing oversight to these Government projects in those terms.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Everybody would expect that we get a bicycle shed for a reasonable price. That has not happened clearly. So the expectations here are blown out of the water, in fairness, Mr. Conlan.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is important that the OPW has an internal oversight where people are employed directly in relation to this.
Two suppliers were invited to quote for the Wicklow granite paving, for example. That was not tendered by the OPW. It was tendered by an outside company. Is that correct?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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We walked over the area of the granite and I think it is 60 sq. m. From the figures that we see here that works out as €800 per sq. m and yet if you go online you can see Wicklow granite paving for about €200 per sq. m. My point is that we need to have internal checks and balances in relation to external contractors who, in fairness to them, are profit-generating organisations who are charging us.
Finally, and I know I am running out of time, there is a lot of detail here about the costs and yet some of the costs are quite hidden. Day works have been mentioned. Is it possible for us to find out the labour cost per hour for day works? I ask because I cannot work out what day works actually means in terms of the cost per labour unit. There is another issue at the end of that. Preliminaries looks like an additional 10% cost. What exactly does that mean? I refer to the granite landscaping. Again, there is talk about supply and install. Can Mr. Conlan separate the labour content from that so we can get a clear understanding of all of those costs?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Can we have the quantity of works as well? When the OPW says that it has spent €121,000 on steel, if we are not given the quantity then how can we work out the exact cost per unit? Again, I feel the information we have been given here is not detailed enough for us to properly analyse it and I do not think that is by accident.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Mr. Conlan is very welcome and I congratulate him on his appointment last April. I thank him and his staff for attending.
The OPW does some very fine work in this country, throughout all of our counties, constituencies and not least in this fine building we find ourselves sitting in. I also acknowledge the tremendous assistance Mr. Ciarán O'Connor has been to us on the Joint Committee on the Housing, Local Government and Heritage on a lot of the work the OPW is doing. It is important to acknowledge that work. When an organisation is in the spotlight, which quite rightly the OPW is because of the excessive costs of this bike shelter, that can have a detrimental impact on many of the staff across the country who work for the OPW and it can be demoralising for them.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I want to acknowledge the very fine work done by the OPW and its very good history.
I want to start with the bike shelter. Did it require planning permission?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Did the OPW consider alternatives that may have been exempt from planning that might have been of a lesser size or intrusion on the building?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When planning permission is sought on a protected structure a declaration can be sought to see if it is exempt from planning permission and seek a section 57 conservation officer report to say whether a project would materially impact or affect the building. Was that done with DCC?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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So the OPW decided the conservation aspect itself rather than the planning authority.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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On the location of the shelter, and we have spoken at length about the granite paving, for example, 90% of the parking area is tarmacked. Why was a decision made that where the bikes are parked had to be granite and could not be just tarmac?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Consistent with the building next door.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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On the location of the structure, according to the costs the cost of the bike shelter and the manufacture, supply and install comes to €121,000. So it is all the extra works around the shelter that have trebled the price. On locating the shelter quite far from where power was available, why not go to the other side of the buildings where there are EV charging points to pick up on that power? I am looking at the ways this project could have provided a bicycle shelter that would serve its purpose without incurring all of these costs. Did the OPW look at the location to assess where is closest for ducting, drainage, power and supply? The OPW seems to have chosen a very extreme location for picking up those services.
Mr. John Conlan:
I do acknowledge that the location chosen turned out to be probably the most expensive location that could have been chosen. The location followed a lot of discussion with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. As I indicated in my review, there were other locations that could have been chosen that would have been far cheaper, particularly in the westward area and areas like that. The decision to locate the shelter there was made between the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the OPW after a lot of engagement on where it should be put. Some options were ruled out and that is where they ended up.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Were the people who were making that decision aware that this project was going to incur all these extra costs due to being quite far from power, the difficulties in try to connect to drainage over there and the granite paving? Had it gone to where the EV charging points were located, the OPW would not have had to try to marry the paving up with the building next door. If somebody were spending their own money, or were more responsible for money, they would have said let us look at the area where we can cut down all these excessive costs? Does Mr. Conlan accept that?
Mr. John Conlan:
I do accept that and, as I have indicated in my opening statement and in the report, I do accept that there should have been more fulsome discussion with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission on the costs of these locations, so that it could have been option-wise in a better way having regard to costs.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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In those discussions, did the OPW say, "If we put it here where the EV charging points are, we will actually reduce costs by this amount?" Was that part of the conversation or was it just aesthetically this is where we are going to put it?
Mr. John Conlan:
I think one of the main concerns I have from the discussions with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, was that there was not a fulsome discussion, if any discussion, on the cost of each of the locations. That should have been the case. That is something I am addressing now by ensuring that the cost of all elected projects be discussed with the authorities in Leinster House, throughout the whole process of planning for these projects. It is something that, as a chairman coming in, I find very difficult to understand, to be very frank.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We find it very difficult to understand as well. What else of substantial value has the OPW constructed within Leinster House or the Department of Finance area, here on Merrion Street or Kildare Street, in the last 12 months or so?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Yes, please. I refer to projects of significant cost.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Sorry to interrupt, but has the OPW constructed any other structure of significant cost within Leinster House or the Department of Finance?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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There is a security shelter beside the Department of Finance buildings. Was that an OPW project?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Was it an OPW project?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is quite a significant high-cost project, I believe.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I was talking about-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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-----Kildare Street, Merrion Street and the compound of buildings.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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It is a very attractive security hut with a sweeping copper-clad roof. It looks very well. What was the cost of the project?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am quite tight on time and I want to find out the cost of the project.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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It was €1.429 million.
Mr. John Conlan:
I want to emphasise that that followed an extensive review of security in this campus by the Garda Síochána technical advisory group. While it looks like, and is a fairly significant cost, there are very significant mechanical and electrical security system costs in that. There was also a significant cost to provide a temporary structure while that building was taking place. There was significant underground works. There was significant ventilation, data communications, CCTV, ramping into a control centre, a significant substructure, and a significant rerouting of underground services. So there was a huge security element to this project.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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There was a huge security element but there is huge price tag attached.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Was that open to the two contractors Mr. Conlon mentioned?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That was an open tender because it exceeded the MTMC.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Who was the contractor?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Who signs off on something at that level of cost? Does that need to go to ministerial level to sign off on it?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Assistant secretary within the Department of Finance.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We have a bicycle shelter for €336,000 and a security hut for €1.4 million. I take the point that-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I know they are two completely different projects, but does that seem like an excessive price? I accept there is a security element to it and the controls involved there. It is a beautiful structure. Is it excessive for the function it performs?
Mr. John Conlon:
I do not believe that it is given the significant security dimensions to it and the security elements of it, which were very costly. Mechanical electrical security systems cannot be done to the dimension required without considerable investment. It is not just the hub. The hub ties into a control system across the whole campus. There has been a lot of routing and that kind of work which is quite hidden - you do not see it by looking at the pavilion itself - as well as significant underground works that took place. Significant networking arose in that project in the Leinster House-Government Buildings campus, including power communications, security and CCTV systems. It is not just what we see when we look at the south gate. There is far more to that project than meets the eye. It was a completely different project and I want to emphasise that point.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Notwithstanding the security considerations of that, is Mr. Conlon in a position to provide us with a breakdown of the costs of that? I do not mind if he has to remove the sensitive security nature of it, but I am interested to see if it was value for money. We are picking holes in the costs of this bike shelter. A total of €50,000 was paid for granite landscaping and I do not think that was not necessary. The groundworks came to another €50,000. There were also day works completed which Deputy Tóibín has referred to. We could have done that bike shelter completed without excessive work for a relatively high cost but without coming up with that astronomical figure. I want to see if that is reflected in the security project.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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As was said earlier, Deputy Doherty asked for the full documentation to be furnished to the committee. It was the expectation of all committee members that all relevant documentation would be submitted. We look forward to hearing about it. It is very disturbing that Mr. Conlon cannot say this was a waste of money. We have to remember this is taxpayers' money, and when I say taxpayers, it belongs to every person living on this island who pays VAT and tax and everything else, and they consider their money to be wasted on this project, especially when we are looking at it in the context of 14,000 people being homeless and the fact the money spent on this would have built a very substantial home for some of those who do not have one right now. The least we can do is to examine all the documentation thoroughly.
I would like to establish one thing first. With regard to the measured term maintenance contract, will Mr. Conlon confirm on the record that the procurement was complete in November 2021 for the Dublin area? Was it complete in November 2021? I am talking about the overall contract.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That is the end of the process. Was it at the stage of being closed in November 2021?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
As in bids were received by the end of November 2021 but would not have been assessed. They would have been nowhere near being assessed. It is quite a substantial process to assess all the bids related to the measured term maintenance contract. That would have taken months to do.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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There were no further bids after November 2021?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am not suggesting anything different. I just want to get the timings right. The timings are very important in this. Mr. Conlon said earlier that he would re-scope the project if it were to come to his desk now. How many projects under €1 million have been re-scoped in the past because the project that was being presented was not deemed by the OPW to give value for money?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate Mr. Conlon might not have the documentation here today but perhaps he could let the committee have note of how many projects were re-scoped because they were deemed not to be value for money? That relates to projects under €1 million in the past four years. That would be useful.
How many people were aware of what was happening? Who was involved? I know Mr. Conlon said earlier he cannot mention individual names. I am trying to get at how many people were making decisions and how many made the decision around this.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Three people made the decision that this was value for money.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That was one person. If there were a similar project today, would it be signed off by one person at the OPW rather than by group consensus?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If today there were a project for €200,000, would that be signed off by one person?
Mr. John Conlon:
It would. With respect to the advices I am seeking, however, I want to bring a more robust assessment to this. Committee members will have seen from the review that was published this morning that I am seeking advices from that. I am conscious we do a lot of work and deliver a lot of projects in this area and I just want some advice as to how to make that process more robust from our point of view. The public spending code is quite silent in relation to the assessments done for values of less than 500. I want to make it more robust within the OPW, learning the lessons of this going forward.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but as was said earlier, the lessons to be learned were to be learned in 2014 when the Siopa was built, and obviously they have not. People will ask what reason they have to believe now that lessons are going to be learned. Lessons are going to be learned seems to be the mantra of so many things across government.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What were the values of the two other quotes from the contractors that were not selected? Mr. Conlon stated that he selected the cheapest one. What were the values of the other two?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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To select the contractor. The applicants submitted overall costs. How many tenders were received before a decision was made?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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For the steel and glass.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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As there were only three bids for the steel and glass, Mr. Conlon must know what the highest bid was, along with the next one and the one selected.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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You should have that information today.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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We are trying to judge the matter. I have a responsibility to the people of Mayo to ensure that they get value for their hard-earned money and the least they will expect to know is what were the other two bids.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, if that can be furnished. I can see we may need another session to scrutinise this when we have all the relevant documentation.
Is it usual for no estimates to be submitted to the promoter of the job? Is it usual for a job to be given the go-ahead without there being any ballpark figure or discussion of what the cost might be? I understand it cannot be pinned down because the jobs go out to tender, but for the Oireachtas to say go-ahead without any idea of the cost is like signing a blank cheque.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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When it was agreed to go ahead with the project-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. At that point, were there any discussions about cost and is it usual?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is usual that the officials working on the project do an order of magnitude costing, which was done in this case, and work from there. As I said on a number of occasions, the order of magnitude costing was done with regard to the particular circumstances of conservation and with a design-led approach. It would be usual for officials on any project to do an order of magnitude costing to get some assessment of the cost and move forward from there.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What I am trying to get at is that the promoter of the project, if you like, outside the OPW, just to get the go-ahead for the project-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW was told to go ahead with the project, without any discussion of what it might cost, before it went out to tender.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but there was no discussion of cost before that.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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l will just ask you one final question.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's time is up.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is about the €11,416 that was the agreed variation to change the design. How did that come about?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean? Was that not taken into account at the beginning? Why was that a variation?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
From a technical perspective, when the contractor finished the installation of the bike shelter, the levels needed to readjusted for health and safety reasons to avoid slips and trips in the winter. It is standard that if the levels are not right they have to be fixed and that it is a variation on the contract.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Surely from the beginning it would be taken for granted that something as basic as that would be included in the initial costing. It should not be a variation. I can understand if it was something out of the ordinary that was come across, something unintended or unexpected.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
The initial designs around levels were done before the installation of the shelter. Then archaeology work and digging out was done when the shelter was being installed and I think there were some changes to how levels needed to sit to make sure there was the right falls and there would not be any slips and trips. It was due to a health and safety assessment that is done at the end of the installation and it required a variation on the contract. That is how it works.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That always happens.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It does not make sense to me.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy MacSharry.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How long do I have?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Everyone has ten minutes.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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How is it that members of the committee-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, go ahead.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I called out the names before the meeting. I said what we were doing, gave the list and members agreed. If they had a problem, they should have raised it then.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I had no idea who was on the committee.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy MacSharry.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Normally, the members of the committee go first.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy MacSharry want to speak? No. We will move on to the next speaker.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I just find it odd that the list was agreed in advance.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was and I called out the list.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I was on that list too, do not forget.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, you are still on the list, which was made by the clerk, not by me.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Excellent chairmanship.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy MacSharry want to speak or will I move on to Deputy Boyd Barrett?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to speak.
I thank the witnesses for coming and wish them well in their new-----
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It should have been members. In any committee members go first and it does not have to be discussed.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy MacSharry take the ten minutes or will I move on?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I will take them.
I wish Mr. Conlon well in his new role. Of the existing management team, other than Mr. O'Connor, does anyone have an engineering, quantity surveyor, QS, or valuer qualification?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is that it?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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As well as Mr. O'Connor we have another engineer. What form of engineering?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There is no QS, valuer or other engineer.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Conlon for clarifying that.
Is the OPW aware whether the preferred measured term maintenance contractor - that company or those companies - have loyalty arrangements with suppliers, whereby if they pass a threshold of supply, they gain a rebate?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Conlon not ask that question?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am more interested in a common-sense approach. I am a buyer of steel or granite and I am doing a lot of work because I am a good contractor. I am doing work for the State and private work and so on. Do I have rebate arrangements with suppliers, albeit that they win tenders, whereby if I do so much business with them over the course of six months, a year or two years or on an individual contract basis, I would gain a rebate.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, will Mr. Conlon inquire and inform the committee whether such arrangements are in place for any of the materials used by the contractors with suppliers who may have won tenders for the likes steel or granite? Do the contractors have rebate arrangements with them?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly it does not, with respect. That is the practice. We are all here because the practice is flawed in the first place. It seems, with the best of respect to the experience the commissioners have, that it would be preparation 101 that I would want a QS on my management team if I were in the OPW.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Could I finish? I would want mechanical and electrical engineers, not just a civil engineer. I would want the State architect who I am sure is a grade 1 conservation architect and a consummate professional and I would certainly want a valuer. By the OPW's admission, we have absences for some of those professions. No doubt, the officials have a lot of experience. Mr. Conlon's background is on the climate side of public expenditure. Is that correct?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Conlon have any involvement in the children's hospital, out of a matter of interest, in his previous roles?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is a reasonable question to ask.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the OPW does.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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However, there are none at the top. Sometimes, even if you have the experience but you do not specifically have the expertise, you might not know what question to ask-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----because you are trusting, like the OPW trusts the person who wins the contract to get the best possible price and operate to the highest standards and governance. Mr. Conlon is assuming that the QS further down the trough is doing the best possible job. That is the practice that leads us into trouble. One of the big problems is this. Mr. Conlon said earlier when someone asked about the identity of the person who signed off on some aspect that he is very conscious that he wants to treat civil servants with the dignity and respect they deserve at work and that he does not wish to individualise it. I suggest that this is the problem.
By the way did we ever get a reduction in rent from Larry Goodman on the Miesian Plaza building which was mis-measured by the professionals in the OPW?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did he reduce the rent?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did he reduce the rent? It is a straight question.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is it. He did not reduce it.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What? Did he take you to lunch once a quarter and wheel out the shadow of a truce because of the €10 million in taxpayers' money he is getting that he did not deserve because we mismeasured the building?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In 30 years' time?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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For how much will that account?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It mitigates the impact, probably from about €10 million down to about €9.3 million.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How much further?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What is it to the nearest half a million euro?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What is the amount to the nearest million euro?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Please do. These are the things that need to be known by the public. The reason I am bringing this up is that just as the OPW wants to treat people with the respect they deserve, provide dignity at work and so on, we want to treat the taxpayers with the respect they deserve. When I asked Mr. Conlon's predecessor whether a disciplinary process was afoot because of that absolutely maximum 101 mistake, he said that, no, it is not a disciplinary issue. In fact, when I asked Mr. Conlon's former boss at the Department of public expenditure why there was no disciplinary process, he, number one, did even know the Miesian Plaza issue had occurred and, number two, he said we do not operate a "gotcha culture" in the Civil Service. The administrative merry-go-round keeps going around. Mr. Conlon has said repeatedly today that an appropriate procurement process took place in line with the rules. What is missing in this is cop on and basic common sense. In fact, the OPW is going to waste more money now by getting in an external auditor to make sure the OPW is doing what it wants to do.
I will move on to my next question. At what level does expenditure come before the management board?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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For anything up to €1 million, the witnesses do not even know about it?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses said that is the case since yesterday. Up to yesterday, people were spending €999,000 willy-nilly without the OPW's approval. Is that so?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Does Mr. Conlon expect committee members, Oireachtas Members and the public to believe that the steering group he outlined in his review, which exists between the Dublin conservation unit within the OPW and the facilities management unit in here, never discussed the cost of €350,000-plus?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Presumably, there is one of these monthly meetings every month.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The facilities management team attends meetings of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. I am a former member of this committee, the Committee of Public Accounts and the commission. I know about some of the things that go on. I find it absolutely ridiculous in the extreme that somebody with the professionalism and experience of the Clerk of the Dáil would not even ask how much this was going to cost.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I find it difficult to believe, not to understand. It is difficult to believe. Sadly, because of what Mr. Conlon said, because of our practice of covering everybody's ass or, to put it another way, give people the dignity and respect they want, provided they are on this side of the table, for the people on that side of the table, that is, the people ponying up the cash, it seems we have no respect for them. The outcome of this will be what is always the outcome after the 2022 experience. The witnesses are all going to blame it on systemic failure and the merry-go-round will move on to the next security hut or the next bicycle shed. By the way, who decided to face the shed towards the weather as opposed to sheltered towards the wall?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Deputy of his time.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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This is my last question. Who decided that? The rain is going to pelt in from the side. If it had been turned around, there might have been some shelter for the six or seven bikes that are in it today.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would they? I must say that no lessons have been learned in the OPW. None whatsoever. Yes, the office does great work. I was on Skellig Michael over the summer. By God, the witnesses would do well to go down and learn a little bit from the monks.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Conlon and all his team for attending the meeting today. I congratulate him on his appointment. It is regrettable that he is having to attend the committee in these circumstances. It is very sad for all the OPW staff across the country that such a cloud is being cast over the organisation now. Some excellent work is being done.
Regarding the bike shelter, many people have expressed their outrage at the cost. I am also outraged at the time that was spent on the design. As a cyclist, I find myself extremely irritated that the OPW seems to have no problem with all the cars parked at the front and back of Leinster House, yet it was intent on hiding the bike shelter. All the talk with the bike shelter was about the serious impact it would have on the integrity of Leinster House and the undesirability of having it visible to the public, such that an objective should be that it was out of sight and the impact should be minimised on the vista of Leinster House. We are talking about a bike shelter. We are not talking about a cowshed being put on the grounds of Leinster House. To be very clear, the objection to a bike shelter, and the intent to try to hide it, is really frustrating.
I want to ask about the accounting processes within the OPW. In the final account in front of us, there is a line about day works. I am a bit confused by that. Do day works refer to something separate to the covered shelter and the other works or do they relate to them? I see it is a very neat 12.75% of the total cost. To what precisely does this expenditure relate?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
Day works is a standard clause that is used in construction contracts. It covers items that are not part of the measured items that are tendered as part of the original tender process. It is usually for things such as the material and the plant that are included in a particular item that were not part of the measured items. In this case, it covers the safety bollards at the front of the bicycle shelter. They were the items covered under day works. The supply, the workmen's time and the installation of those bollards are what is covered under day works.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The bollards cost €30,000.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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In the case of building a house, the costs include labour and materials. Is Ms Collier saying the cost of labour and materials for the bollards was €30,000?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I find this a bit strange. Everything should be itemised. Having this catch-all under the project does not seem acceptable.
I move on to my second question. The scope of works was issued in 2023 and the final account report was issued to the OPW official in July 2024. Am I right in my understanding that there was no direct role by OPW officials in that 12-month period with regard to the tendering process? Was there no oversight by an OPW employee during that tender and quoting period?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The OPW's documentation states that the scope of works was issued in 2023 and the final accounting report was issued in July 2024. It seems the intervening period was handled by contracted agents of the OPW. There does not appear to have been any direct oversight by an OPW official of the tender process and the assessment of quotes received during that time.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
The full contract is overseen by a senior architect in the OPW. To be clear, it is that official who oversees everything in regard to the certifying of the works and dealing with the contractor in terms of the estimated costs that come in. When an estimated cost comes in, it is submitted to the quantity surveying contractor, who assesses it and provides a recommendation certification to the OPW. We review that and it is certified by the senior architect on the job. There is a series of processes that are done by technical people who have the accredited skills and the necessary technical obligations, as it were, in how we do our processes to fulfil these functions.
It absolutely is overseen to the end by the relevant official in the OPW.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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If a project such as that was to come before that official today and was just under the €200,000 threshold, it would not go to the board. Would a project such as this still go through today? Ms Collier is saying that there is a proper process in terms of the architect overseeing it. To me, even a cost of just under €200,000 would still be outrageous for a bike shelter. Could something like that still happen today?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
The Chairman has alluded to how we are learning lessons and are looking at our processes and systems to improve those. We have standards and processes in place for our teams that they must follow. We have to empower our teams to do the work. We are delivering a huge programme of work across Dublin. There are 600 buildings and 110 of them are historic. There are a huge range of programmes of work that have to be delivered and people have to be empowered to follow the processes and systems we have in place. It goes back to the judgment call piece. The costs here can be explained; it is just whether they are value for money or not. We all agree with the Senator's assessment that this does not represent value for money. Would it represent value for money at a lower level? It might, depending on the design and the cost but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about this particular instance.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am concerned there is not a common-sense check somewhere in the organisation that ultimately would have put in context that this is a bike shelter and not something more elaborate. On the specifications, I see that lights and charging points were part of the original specification and do not appear to have been delivered on. Were they paid for?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Are they operational now?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
They cannot be operational now because we cannot certify charging for e-bikes now in the vicinity of the National Gallery. It is all to do with building regulations and the certification of charging for e-bikes at the moment. In time, it is future-proofed so that power and charging for e-bikes can be installed in the future.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The €336,151 is not the final figure for this bike shelter. There will be additional costs to make that operational into the future in terms of getting the fire certificates and all of that.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
Yes, but it will be a fairly minimal cost. It is about just putting in the individual bollards for the charging of he e-bikes. It would be a fairly minimal charge. All of the expensive work is putting in the electrics and ducting in the floor and that has all been future-proofed.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I have a question for the Chairman. One of the things that really strikes me is that he said he will commission an external auditor to inform or advise as to how value for money can better inform practices in the organisation. With respect to Mr. Conlon, the OPW's bread and butter is spending money on maintenance and capital projects. Mr. Conlon's background within the public service has been monitoring of how money is spent. Does he really need an external auditor to tell the organisation how to do its job? I hear what Mr. Conlon said in terms of putting in place the process with regard to the thresholds, as of yesterday. Going back to my earlier question, I do not hear how, with regard to the processes put in place for that type of project. If the cost came in for just under €200,000 today, it would probably still go through and that it still completely unacceptable.
Mr. John Conlon:
There are two reasons I want to have some external advice to help me on this. We deliver a huge number of projects in that range. As a new Accounting Officer, I want the best advice I can get on an independent basis to allow me to put in a more robust structure for the delivery of projects in that category. I accept that projects that might be slightly under that threshold should require further review, probably by a more senior person. I indicated earlier that the OPW does a huge amount of work in the category below €200,000 in terms of very small works and medium works. Under the medium-term framework, over the past two and a half years we have delivered more than 11,000 projects. I do not want to slow down that system because we must be able to react efficiently and effectively to the huge amount of work we are asked to do on an ongoing basis. I want more robust structures in place for the category of works that are similar to this, between €200,000 and €500,000. I would like some assurance and advice on that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Like Deputy MacSharry, I am a former member of the Committee of Public Accounts. I was a member for 15 years, for my undoubtedly very long list of sins. I also am a former Minister of State so I have a bit of knowledge in that area. I also am Vice Chairman of this committee. In that context, I will raise a couple of questions which I am led to believe I have a right to be concerned about regarding the direction in which OPW is heading at present. The witnesses will be familiar with the situation in Castletown House in my constituency. I compliment OPW for the tremendous work it did in relation arterial drainage in conjunction with the local authorities all over my constituency. It was very well done and effectively carried out.
I have different views with regard to Castletown because, rightly, Castletown House was in the charge of the OPW on which the organisation spent €25 million over the last number of years. It was on good causes. I have never gone into the individual causes in any way but €25 million was spent. Because €25 million was spent and more was obviously going to be spent over a number of years, an access and egress point could not be guaranteed and as a result the OPW went through an interregnum with the adjoining landowner to the effect that by way of permission, to be renewed on a fairly regular basis, access would be from the M4 to a car park, which was provided, to Castletown House and the adjoining gardens and lands.
The State owns Castletown House with 220 or 230 acres and has done so for several years. It entered into an agreement with the adjoining landowner at that time because it was conscious of the fact it did not have any kind of guaranteed, unimpeded access for itself or its assigns. That was proved when an alternative, temporary arrangement was sought. Right now, the OPW has failed to protect Castletown House. A year has gone by since the situation developed outside the hands of anybody. Nobody was accountable as far as I can see, to the effect that no work has been done. Local residents, rightly in my opinion, put a picket on the gates which were intended to be used. The front gates of an historic mansion were to be used as a means of toing and froing - whatever was required - in the future. That is not feasible because they are right onto the main street of the adjoining village which is choked with traffic at present. The OPW knows that.
Another thing happened then. I raised it on numerous occasions. Notwithstanding the attempt by other Members of the House who spoke previously to suggest a particular senior Minister was responsible, the line Minister is the Minister of State. That is correct as he is accountable to this committee and to the House and appears before this committee on a regular basis. That has not worked. I have raised that particular issue in the House on something like 22 occasions to get a response and failed. I saw something happen in the last 24 hours that really raised the alarm.
There were two things. I want solutions to the issue and answers to these questions. I was to attend a meeting in Castletown House yesterday. Because of other circumstances I cannot walk a distance of a mile or a mile and a quarter but, touch wood, I will shortly. I decided to place myself strategically on the route I thought the Minister would take and that was at a gate at the border of the estate. I was there when suddenly, the Minister came along, almost running, and hurried himself for the last mile to walk to the estate where the meeting took place. I cannot understand who is running the show in the OPW, that is, whether it is the Minister or the OPW telling the Minister what he should do. I am quite clear as to where the pecking order is.
I would have presumed that as a courtesy to the Minister, arrangements would be made to unlock a particular gate where there was no other designated traffic and that he would be able to use his time to good effect - and I am sure he has plenty of other issues to deal with - to be on time for the meeting. Needless to say, I could not go there.
I will say the following. I have twice in the past three months submitted a comprehensive question to the Minister in question seeking to ascertain the extent to which any previous arrangement might have been entered into with a nod or a wink, or may have been inferred or implied. The question was drawn up by a legal eagle in order to ascertain what went on behind the scenes that I might not know about, that was outside my remit and left me trying to guess what had taken place. The question was not answered. It was returned to me with a note that the Minister would talk to me about it. He has done so, but always under the umbrella of the power and influence of the OPW. I have put that question down twice and twice it has been refused. I am now issuing a warning and the Chairman knows this has to be done from time to time. I expect that question to be answered. Every aspect of it and every nuance has to be answered.
The local people have been portrayed as a rabble causing interference and slowing down the progress of the OPW. There has been no progress. A year has gone by, with the working committee meeting every couple of weeks, and nothing is happening. That is to the frustration of the local residents and the public representatives of all parties. I resent being told, or its being inferred, that this is above the competence of ordinary country rednecks and Deputies and somebody else should be dealing with it. We have not yet decided who should be dealing with it. The Chairman was not responsible for this but I had a long conversation with his predecessor and there is no doubt at all as to where the buck stops. I believe that the current Minister is entitled to exert his authority and respond to the reasonable requests of local residents who have a serious issue. They are frustrated because they have been given a hand-off.
There is no sense in telling me or anybody else that we have another agenda and want to buy more land. The first thing we have to do is to secure access to the land and premises that we own. The OPW has failed to protect the concept of a listed and historical building. The building in question is a local amenity and is urgently required. The residents around the area are adamant that they will defend their right to enjoy that particular building and the lands involved. I am asking for a serious effort to be made in the next week to ensure that some progress is achieved in the short term and that it does not consist of temporary arrangements, which usually come back to bite the people, as they know. A temporary arrangement that was put in place 20 years ago to gain access from the M4 was ceased when an adjoining landowner put a gateway across that temporary arrangement. The challenge is to the OPW. Let us face the challenge and deliver.
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank the Deputy. I have noted the issues he has raised. This is an issue we are trying to work through carefully. I am working closely with the Minister on approaches. I will speak to him directly about the issues the Deputy has raised. It is something we are making a real effort to progress with the Minister.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Conlon to let the rest of us know.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has raised the issue previously.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He raised the issue comprehensively today. He is welcome to propose a session with the chairman should no progress be made. Perhaps we should thrash it out.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank the representatives of the OPW for their contribution to this discussion. They are obviously aware that the bike shed scandal has brought the Houses of the Oireachtas, the OPW and the public services into disrepute. People cannot understand how a bike shed could cost the same as a house. I cannot think of any good explanation for why a bike shed would cost more than a house. I am still not clear, even after all the discussion we have had, how we have a bike shed that cost more than a house. I see the costings here and they do not make sense to me. After two hours of discussion, I cannot understand how the bike shed cost so much. As has been pointed out, it is open to the elements so it is not even clear that it will keep bicycles dry. I am not being glib but that is what somebody in my office who cycles said. That person is not using that bike shed, I hasten to add. The shed may not even protect the bicycles from the rain. It is quite an extraordinary situation and brings far bigger issues into disrepute. It is symbolic to the public of many things in respect of how their money is misused and misspent at an extraordinary level.
I would certainly like to see a more detailed breakdown. What the witnesses seem to be saying is that they understand where the costs come from but are not sure whether they represent value for money. I do not understand where these costs come from. I want to see a more detailed breakdown. I have seen a breakdown from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors or quantity surveyors on the construction of a house and different elements are included. The figure for the actual construction costs, €121,000, is the approximate cost of the construction of a house. There are also all these other things. Perhaps the witnesses can elaborate further or provide us with more detail. The public will find all of this hard to understand unless somebody explains how on earth a project could have been approved to spend as much money on a bike shed as on a house. That is the first thing.
It is being reported as we speak that the OPW proposed an area near the Members' bar on what is referred to as the west road. Is that right? Is that the area just under the Members' restaurant?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not see why the OPW would not have put the shed there. Security concerns have been cited but I do not see what the additional security burden would have been. There is still a security gate between that area and Leinster House itself. Do the witnesses know how much less that would have cost? Would they still be of the view that it is the option we should have gone with? Who made the decision that the option that the OPW had initially proposed was not acceptable and we had to go for the option that has turned out to be far more expensive and comparable with the cost of building a house?
The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission refused the OPW's initial suggestion. When the OPW had to ascertain the cost of the new location that the commission wanted, was there not some requirement, obligation or request for the new cost to come back for the commission to sign off on it? I cannot understand how that would not be the case.
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank Deputy Boyd Barrett. Regarding his first comments, in my opening statement I acknowledged that the cost of this was not acceptable in the context of value for money and value for the taxpayer. I have acknowledged the extraordinary costs and I reflect on the Deputy's comments on that very seriously.
In relation to the Deputy's comment on our suggestion that it be located on the west road, this was an option we put forward to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. As I understand it, the security issues were raised by An Garda Síochána. That was taken on board in moving away from that as a preferred location.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have to say, as somebody who walks from Agriculture House into Leinster House every single day, I am baffled as to why that would not be a perfectly suitable location.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can Mr. Conlon give us even a rough idea of the difference in cost between that original suggestion and the current location?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett may have been the security issue.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Maybe I was. The original suggestion has recently been described in the media as a more cost-effective proposal. Do we have any idea how much more cost-effective it was?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It would be far lower.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When that option was refused, and what turned out to be a far more expensive option was decided upon, was there not a requirement for the costing of the new location to come back to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to say the option chosen has turned out to be much more expensive and to ask if the commission was sure it wanted to go ahead with this? That strikes me as something obvious that should have happened. I do not understand how it would not have happened.
Mr. John Conlon:
I totally agree with the point the Deputy has just made that it should have been relayed back to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. It was not. This is one of the reasons I am insisting that the commission be fully informed at the monthly meetings of all elective works the OPW does on its behalf. I find it very hard to understand, and I have said it twice during this committee meeting so far, why those costs were not relayed back.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What indication was the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission given? Once it said it was rejecting the OPW's proposal, which would have been a fraction of the cost, as Mr. Conlon seems to indicate, and going for something else, was the commission even told that it would likely be much more expensive?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It was told it would be far more costly.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That was the end of it - it was a case of just go and do it, regardless of cost.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Right.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It should have been. Lastly, we have heard today in a different context that the board for developing the national children's hospital accused the main contractor of trying to extract every single cent it possibly could from the State. Is there an element of that in all of this, given the extraordinary costs? All the people doing the work, whether they are this medium-term group or outside contractors, were presumably in it to make a few bob. Everything was outsourced to commercial businesses who were also out to make a few bob. The consequence is an incredibly and shockingly expensive bike shed. Are we looking into whether there was profiteering going on here? Were they just extracting every cent because they knew this was the public purse and if it is the public purse, they can bump up the prices?
Mr. John Conlon:
I want to be quite clear on this, if I may. The contractor was given a scope of works to do. It did the work within the measured-term contract that we provided. I do not have any evidence whatsoever of profiteering. The contractor did what it was asked to do within the scope that it was given.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My very last question is this. At some point, before it was approved, somebody saw an estimate of what it was going to cost and that it was going to be an extraordinary amount of money. That would have been after July 2023 and before July 2024. Somewhere in between, somebody was given an estimate which detailed all these costs and the total cost. That one individual signed off on that. Is that what happened?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the officials from the OPW before the committee. I will start with a question to Mr. Conlon, or perhaps one of his colleagues might be better informed. Has the OPW previously commissioned the installation of bicycle sheds or shelters on its property?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Where were the more recent shelters installed?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
There are small, very modest covered facilities in Government Buildings. We also put in some facilities at Farmleigh. The vast majority of sheds that we put in are not covered. They are bike racks or free-standing rails that bikes are chained to. They are not covered in most instances.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of those contracts, were they offered out by way of an advertisement on eTender or were they similarly commissioned, as here, under the MTMC scheme?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What was the cost of the bicycle sheds in Government Buildings and Farmleigh?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Collier have any vague recollection as to whether they are anything like what we are talking about here?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When a decision was made that there was going to be a bicycle shed shelter installed in Leinster House - I think it was on 1 June 2021 - did anyone in the OPW say that we actually have a bike shed installed in Government Buildings and Farmleigh previously and should we not go back to that contractor?
Mr. John Conlon:
I think the assessment made at that stage was that the team who would have designed this would have had more regard to the conservation aspects of the Leinster House and lawn site adjacent to the National Gallery. The team would have proceeded on that basis rather than taking the approach the Deputy is suggesting.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct in saying that the OPW came up with the design after the meeting of 21 June 2021 decided it would proceed?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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After that design, the OPW came up with a total project cost estimate. Is that correct?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That was a decision made by the relevant officer as Mr. Conlon referred to them. Was there anyone within the OPW reviewing that or having a second look at it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Is an official completely on their own to calculate and determine the estimate cost?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Were other people within the OPW aware of that estimate, even if they were not reviewing it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A decision was then made that we needed to go down the procurement route and Mr. Conlon mentioned in his report that can be done by either an advertisement on eTenders or by way of the measured term maintenance contracts, MTMC, framework scheme. Why was it decided not to proceed by way of advertisement on eTenders?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the bike sheds in Government Buildings and Farmleigh, and maybe Ms Collier would know more about this, were they advertised on eTenders or were they completed under MTMC?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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With the benefit of hindsight, does Mr. Conlon think that would have been the better avenue to proceed here?
Mr. John Conlon:
With the benefit of hindsight, Deputy, the design approach and the conservation aspect of this certainly drove the cost up. In hindsight, an alternative approach could have been to descope that project, having regard to a cheaper outcome. That is most definitely one of the lessons from this.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When a decision is made to proceed down the MTMC framework route, who decides and on what basis is it decided which of the two contractors on that framework get the work?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When that contractor got the job, was it informed of the estimated cost that had been put on it by the OPW?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When did the cost estimate come in from the contractor? Obviously, before the contractor starts the work it has to indicate to the OPW how much it is going to charge. When did that happen?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What was that estimate? Was it in line with what was ultimately charged?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Are those estimates just provided to the relevant officer as he or she is referred to in the report or does it go to a higher level within the OPW?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
The estimate is fully assessed by the quantity surveyor. They assess it against the tendered rates on the original contract for the measured items. They then assess the rates that have been received in respect of the mini-tenders that happened under the contract. They do a very detailed assessment and then make a recommendation to the OPW in relation to the cost estimate we have received. As I say, the relevant officer in this scenario was a senior architect who was overseeing this contract and this job and it is reviewed by them. The instruction to proceed is then issued at that point. This process would have all been carried out within the team. That is in line with standard OPW process and procedure on jobs.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When the relevant officer received the outline, bill or indication from the contractor as to what it was going to cost, he or she probably was not surprised because they had already set a price or an estimated cost of €350,000, is that correct?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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From listening to the witnesses today and listening to Mr. Conlon today, he is stating unambiguously that the expenditure is not consistent with the scale of the project under consideration. At what stage does this go beyond the small team and somebody in the OPW says this is a completely inappropriate price we are paying? When does that happen?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It happens after the Public Accounts Committee, usually.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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What grade is the person who has the authority, or had until yesterday, to sign off on the expenditure up to €500,000?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That would not be considered a very high grade?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It is a middle management grade, I would say.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It is certainly an awful of responsibility to give to one person. Mr. Conlon says the OPW has now lowered the limits to €200,000. The same person could still sign a check for €199,000 for another, similar project and that would not be a problem. Are there other oversight mechanisms that have been put in place as well?
I am sure Mr. Conlon has met the Minister of State with regard to this since the news first broke in the media. Mr. Conlon was appointed in April, am I right?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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When did Mr. Conlon become aware of the cost of this particular project?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon had no knowledge of it?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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What other grades would have had knowledge of it by that stage? It did not go all the way to the chairman but would it have gone above the grade of principal officer?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That is quite something. It is an awful lot of responsibility. I do not want to personalise it to any one individual but this principal officer grade, what training did they have in terms of financial management or anything like that? What would be their training and is it mandatory? Let me phrase it in a different way. Is it a requirement currently, or does Mr. Conlon think it should be a requirement, for a person who has the responsibility of spending €500,000 of taxpayers' money to have some sort of training in financial management or budgetary oversight or anything like that?
Mr. John Conlon:
I would prefer to phrase my answer in the context of project management, which has regard to cost, rather than financial management. The development officers on that level in the OPW are responsible for a lot of project management and I would expect that project managers within the office would have regard to cost issues.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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What has Mr. Conlon done to ensure that? We would all expect the people charged with the responsibility of spending taxpayers' money would have regard to that. They clearly did not, which is why we are here. What would be Mr. Conlon's level of expectation? Has he checked the qualifications of staff? It has been reduced down to a threshold of €200,000. That is still a phenomenal amount of money. Has Mr. Conlon made sure every person under his remit, with the responsibility of spending €200,000, has in fact got those qualifications and they are up to date?
I have a qualification from college but I would hesitate before I would use it because it is an awful long time ago. Do they have current skills in terms of financial management or that part of project management which encompasses value for money?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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If they have not received the training, are they told that they cannot be responsible for managing large sums?
Mr. John Conlon:
It will be part of our learning and development process to ensure they have project management skills and we need to continuously update that. The people who delivered this project are responsible for delivering quite a number of projects and we have enhanced our project management training in conjunction with the Institute of Public Administration, IPA, over the last couple of years. That is something I will put more emphasis on as well.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a brilliant ad for it, is it?
In terms of the order of magnitude costing, it was a hell of a magnitude, was it not? The order of magnitude costing was carried out by this individual at the grade of principal officer or equivalent and at no stage was any more senior person notified about that, am I right?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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This individual obviously felt empowered by senior managers to act. I do not want to personalise it to an individual, but whoever the person was at the level of principal officer felt very comfortable in signing off a project of this size without any recourse to senior managers?
As regards making sure that will not happen again, the OPW has put some limit in place. It is still a hefty enough amount of money - €200,000. In Mr. Conlon's meetings with the Minister of State since this story broke in the media and since Mr. Conlon tells us he himself became aware of it, has the Minister of State advised him that he wanted action to be taken? Did he specify any particular action? Did he ask Mr. Conlon to itemise what action he himself would take on foot of this?
Mr. John Conlon:
He did not direct me in any particular context in that way. As I have outlined in my review, I am taking certain actions as Accounting Officer in that respect. The Minister of State would not direct me what to do. What I have set out in the review is what I have set out in the review, and the recommendations are my recommendations.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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So the Minister of State was content when Mr. Conlon met with him that the actions he was taking were sufficient. He was not asked to undertake any additional actions.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the role of the quantity surveyor, my colleague asked some questions in this regard, but I am a wee bit confused. Who pays the QS's wages? Are they paid by Sensori?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so the QS works for the OPW on contract. The QS is not an employee of the OPW directly. It is a contract.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW have any QSs on staff?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Now I am confused. The OPW has QSs on staff but it also contracts in QSs.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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What are the QSs who are staff doing while the contractors are in doing the work?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW need additional QS staff, perhaps?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon might call it flexibility. There might be other-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Two minutes.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Chair. The order of magnitude costing that was done did not contain within it the €11,000 that was needed to ensure the bike shed could be safe during the winter. Why was a kind of bike shed for all seasons not built, or how did the OPW end up getting surprised or stung with a bill for €11,000 at the end? Surely the specification would have been to build a bike shed that could be used for 12 months of the year rather than to build a bike shed and then be hit with another bill for €11,000 to make it safe during the winter. I am sure I am not the only person scratching my head looking at that.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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So the contract was not to create a bike shed that was fit for purpose, albeit massively expensive. It was to create one that was not and then had to be adjusted at the end. I am just wondering. This seems like a very good deal for the contractor at the end. Mr. Conlon was at pains to point out how detailed the plan was and the order of magnitude costing and all that stuff that went along with it. In all that detailed planning and all that detailed engagement, using the in-house or the external QSs or the in-house or the external staff, or all the qualified people or the people Mr. Conlon would say are at senior enough grades, it was not felt appropriate to make it weather-proof for winter, or somehow the OPW got surprised with the charge at the end.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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As I said, a very good deal for the contractor, it looks like.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Byrne.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Conlon for his presentation and for coming here. I first welcome the fact that the King's Island flood relief scheme has gone ahead and that Mr. Conlon has it mentioned in his submission because that is really important. We, the people in Limerick, waited a long time for it. In his presentation, Mr. Conlon mentions the fact that An Bord Pleanála has given planning permission to the national children's science centre. That has been going on for 20 years. A former chair of the OPW said at a committee meeting here that he would be extremely concerned about the possible exposure to the public purse. He went on to state that the project had never gone through the requirements of the spending code. Is the OPW still concerned about this project and the potential cost to the taxpayer and how much-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness to the other members, we had agreed that we were going to take the issue of the bicycle shed first and then other issues. If you want, Senator, if you have questions on the-----
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I do not have any questions on the bicycle shed.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Other members, I think, wanted to speak on the issue you are raising as well.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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All right, so I am not allowed to ask the questions.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You are allowed to ask your question, but it is that-----
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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It is just we have votes and I will have to-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Then ask your question.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Well, it is not okay, but go on.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to be fair to the other members who wanted to ask questions on the same issue.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am not stopping them from asking questions.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Do you want to ask the question, Senator?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ask it.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Thank you. How much has the science museum cost the OPW to date?
Mr. John Conlon:
Just from recollection, and I need to double-check this but we can get the information to the Senator later, I think the OPW would have spent about €1.5 million on this over recent years. In response to her earlier question about value for money and the previous chairman's comments, the OPW is in a position where we have this legal obligation to construct this. As I have outlined in my opening statement, there is the issue of value for money, on which I am sure whatever Department ends up funding this will require some assurance. I think that process would have to be gone through if this project evolves to that stage. That should be appropriately done, in my view, but from an OPW perspective, we are in the position where we have this legal obligation as a builder of the project. I have no funding in my funding base for it. As I have outlined, there is no funding in the NDP envelope to date, so there have to be future negotiations with the Government, the Department of public expenditure, on funding for this. At that stage then, the funding requirement, I would imagine, will come with a value for money assessment requirement.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You can come back in again, Senator, when we discuss this topic.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I had two or three other questions. Should I have asked them-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness to the other members, we had agreed that we would discuss the bicycle shed first.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am afraid I will have to go because we are voting.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. I have to accommodate the other members too.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I was not here earlier because we were voting so I was not aware.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay, Senator. We have a break-----
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I was not aware so I was not-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay. I just have to inform you that is what the members decided.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Am I not allowed to ask the rest of my questions?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You can when you come back in. We will deal with the bicycle shed first. That is what the members agreed. I am only implementing their decision. We have a ten-minute break to take.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I have to go. Senators are voting.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Before we go on a ten-minute break, I want to ask you a few questions, Mr. Conlon. You had meetings with the Minister of State. Had you one meeting or did you have more with the Minister of State in relation to this?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So he was well briefed on it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. I am asking you whether you gave him a detailed brief on the background to this and whether you are satisfied now that he is well briefed on the matter.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, and he has asked you to implement the appropriate changes that are necessary.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When did you come to the conclusion that this was an expensive project? Was it recently? Was it before or after the FOI?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was your predecessor concerned about the cost?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any paperwork in the Department to suggest that he might have been concerned about the cost?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You have been asked on a number of occasions to provide certain paperwork. I have to ask you to ensure that paperwork gets to us as quickly as possible.
I would like to see the minutes of meetings that were held on the project, whether these minutes were taken by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission or not. The committee, I am sure, will agree that we need to see copies of those minutes.
Going down through the report, Mr. Conlon made his presentation. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, first, provides for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The commission is responsible for determining financial and administrative policy, according to the annual report. Is it correct that Mr. Conlon made the report available in a presentation to the commission?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the bicycle shed.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking Mr. Conlon about the commission. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission was informed of this project by a number of individuals working here, that they wanted to have some form of parking space for their bicycles. Arising from that, the commission asked the OPW to come up with a proposal. Is that correct?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Conlon went back to the commission, which is made up of quite a number of politicians and officials-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----did he make a presentation to the commission about its request to have this constructed?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Conlon says she was there, was she at the commission?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
Actually, I was not at the commission at this stage. In November 2020, the commission asked the OPW to attend the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission meeting to talk about the issue of a covered bicycle facility. In April 2021, one senior official from the OPW attended and presented options to the commission and that included the preferred option of outside the 1966 block on the west road. After that meeting, the facilities management team wrote to the OPW the next day saying that was not an acceptable location for the Members, that they were not approving that, and that there were security concerns at that location. The OPW was asked to go and consider locations on the Merrion Square side, specifically in Leinster Lawn. At that point, the OPW did an internal appraisal process and came back to the commission meeting in June of that year with an option adjacent to the National Gallery. That option, which included e-charging, 18 stands and 36 bikes, was approved by the commission.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The full commission membership was fully briefed by the OPW. They made the decision to go ahead with this and then the OPW was instructed from there.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am sticking with the commission here. This whole debacle started somewhere. It started with a request to provide a bicycle shelter. It resulted in the OPW coming to the commission and making a number of submissions and a final submission. That is the full commission. I will not name them but they are senior people in these Houses who perhaps should have known better with regard to how this was proceeding. The commission then gave the OPW permission to move ahead with the project. Is that correct?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Collier does not have to change my words. It gave the OPW permission and approved. It is all the same.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am told then that there is a steering group encompassing representatives from both executives. It meets monthly and oversees the implementation of both the standard maintenance and the capital works programme, as well as the commission. Did the OPW meet it separately?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Between the executives. I do not know who is on that working group. Can Ms Collier give us the names of the people?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
Yes. There would be a deputy secretary, assistant secretary and principal officer from the facilities management team here. I think the assistant principal here attends as well. The superintendent for the Dáil attends some of the meetings. On our side, it would be myself, an assistant principal architect, senior architect, grade 1 engineer and the engineer. It is would be quite a meeting.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The commission, with public representatives on it, made the decision and then a non-elected group, albeit a well-qualified group with engineers and God knows what, looks at the scope and the delivery. There is no politician there.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but this working group is well qualified. They are looking at the progress of this and other projects I am sure. Is that correct?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is fine. The PO in the OPW signed off on it. He must have felt quite comfortable signing off on it because all of these very professional eyes were over this project once a month. Is that right?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but this is a big project; it was €380,000 or whatever it was. Those professionals, you could take it, gave comfort by the fact that they were just there, to the principal officer with regard to the signing off. He knew there were other people who looked at it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He had the commission, made up of very senior people. He had this working group that was made up of really professional people who knew their stuff and were meeting once a month. Presumably, when he got the costings, he said, "Well, you know, it seems to be okay". All of these people are above his pay grade so he would make certain presumptions from that.
Anyway, the project then went ahead. What fascinates me here is that nobody, none of you senior people, none of the commission members and nobody senior in politics, bothered their ass to question why that amount of money was being spent on a bicycle shelter. Everyone wants to blame someone but when you go back to the source of this problem, the blame rests firmly with the commission not conducting its business properly. That essentially is what Mr. Conlon is pointing to. He is not happy with that process. He told us that already.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon is not happy. Let us not mince words here. He is not happy with that process.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I wonder whether Mr. Conlon's predecessor happy with the process because what is happening now is that the waters are getting muddier and muddier. We do not know who to blame. We do not know who is responsible for it - the nameless PO, the working group or the commission. For me, it is the commission. They are the OPW's client, and it is delivering for them but they could not give a rat's whatever about the cost. It never came back and asked Mr. Conlon. It never questioned him, is what Mr. Conlon said. They never came back and asked, "How much is it? We need to know because we are watching every bob here on behalf of the Members and the taxpayer." They never did, and that is why I want the minutes of all of those meetings Mr. Conlon referred to so that, in turn, we have a thread of meetings and decisions and who knew what and when. By the way, we should have had that today. There are enough games going on in these Houses without the bureaucracy of the State engaging as well, although it is very good at it anyway. I feel that is a problem with the OPW.
I want to say something to the individual who might be watching this discussion, or the reports that are made of it, and the references made to the employees of the OPW and how demoralised they must feel.
Going back to basic contracts that were handed out way back in 1999 and 2000, to the Kilkenny flood relief scheme, the cost of which increased from €4 million to €50 million, to the issues with Durrow Abbey and to the issues recounted in reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General, I am shocked that the witnesses are telling me today they are going to learn lessons going forward, as they say in this House. I do not believe them. I believe they will make their best effort because they seem to be genuine in that regard, but they are up against it in here because I have seen the OPW recklessly spending taxpayers' money. It had nothing to do with the workers or the delivery of the project but certainly to do with the management of the systems in the OPW.
I and, I am sure, all the other members will give the OPW every support in trying to move the Titanic a little bit away from the iceberg, but I think it is too late. There is a culture there and it stinks. I am very upset over it and I think the public is very upset over it. It is not so much about the bicycle shed or cover, but about the whole process and how we have arrived here.
I am going to leave that with the witnesses and I hope they will consider what I have said during the break and give us some response. Right now, all we are hearing are Groundhog Day comments that have been given to previous meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts and this committee. There is no accountability, very little transparency and, certainly, no political leadership. That is how I see it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will resume. Deputies Matthews and Tóibín wish to contribute during the second round of questions. Deputy Conway-Walsh will ask questions first, followed by Deputies Fitzmaurice, Matthews, Tóibín, Durkan and Boyd Barrett.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief. How many bids were there for the measured term maintenance contract?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW might furnish that information to the committee, please.
Did I hear correctly that only contractors in south Dublin could pitch for the contract in south Dublin? Was it open to contractors from all of Dublin?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Anyone from anywhere could apply and it was not a case of segregating the two areas.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Who got the contract for the gate at the Department of Finance?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave it there, as other members wish to contribute, but the witnesses might provide that information.
Regarding the other OPW-related subjects that we have to discuss, I ask that the witnesses appear before us again as soon as possible. There are a number of other projects that need to be considered.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am not on this committee, so I thank the Chair and members for allowing me to speak.
I was listening from the seats at the back of the room when it was stated that the OPW identified the back way into Leinster House beside Agriculture House – I am familiar with the area – because it would not have to remove any parking spaces, given that it was a wide area across from the restaurant. Is that correct?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How many parking spaces have been removed from the current site?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is more than that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett and I are based on that side of Agriculture House and people have to pass through security, including at the gate. Could the committee be forwarded a letter – I am not a member, but I would like to see it – about the grounds on which the decision was made? Obviously, the OPW received a letter from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, which handles that side of the work here, giving a reason for the decision. Is that letter available?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If possible, I would like the committee to get that information from the parties involved.
Is there a procurement framework document on which suppliers of projects valued at €500,000, €1 million or whatever are put? How does it work?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
The multiparty framework, whereby the two contractors are appointed to Dublin north and Dublin south, covers the Dublin region. Elsewhere around the country, we are in the process of developing a framework of regionally based contractors covering contracts with a value of €200,000 to, I believe, €1 million. Over that amount, any project would have to go on eTenders.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There are probably 110 sq. m or 112 sq. m of granite. Is the part where people walk granite?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There are approximately 160 sq. m of macadam. Is each of the elements, including site set-up, set out separately in the procurement document?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Drainage works were included.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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According to some media coverage, cheaper quotes were received. Is that correct? I heard media reports of quotes coming in at €30,000, €40,000 or €50,000 less. Were those bids assessed as not supplying the same works?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am trying to establish something. When the OPW puts a project out for tender, it uses a preferred supplier in the south of the city and another in the north. Am I correct in saying that only one can work on a project or can other people who do that type of work-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did the bike shelter go through eTenders?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. That is all I wanted to know.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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To clarify, will the OPW be able to issue us with the cost breakdown of the security hut?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Does the OPW have to run that by the Minister of State first like it did with the bike shelter?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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If we could get that as soon as possible, I would appreciate it.
Mr. Conlon stated that signing off on that level of expenditure - €1.5 million – would be done by an assistant secretary.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Does the Minister of State have eyes on that? Does the assistant secretary sit down with him and go through those items?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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At what point of expenditure does the Minister of State get brought into the equation and get eyes on a project as the manager of a department?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The voted budget for the OPW last year was how much?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will ask about other aspects of the OPW’s work, if that is okay. The OPW is responsible for the management of Garda stations, including their grounds and buildings.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am considering an idea to do with a Garda station in County Wicklow. I will not name the location because I have not spoken widely about the matter, but my idea has to do with the installation of a playground on the station’s grounds. There seems to be quite a deal of land around it and we are stuck for space in the small village in question. Would the OPW consider assessing building a community facility where there are grounds around a Garda station?
In my own local Garda station in Bray, there is a kind of walkway through it that the public can use and a picnic table. Is that something the OPW could look at if I were to come to Mr. Conlon separately? I do not want to put him on the spot.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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In principle, is it something the OPW would be willing to look at?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Fair enough. Is the OPW a prescribed body for planning applications under the planning Act?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I want to draw the OPW's attention to a strategic infrastructure development that is being proposed in Wicklow. It is a very large quarry, Ballinclare quarry, and is quite close to Kilmacurragh, for which the OPW has responsibility. That is not a live planning application at present. As I understand it, it is going through non-statutory public consultation at the moment. It is not a live planning application as such, which is why I am happy to raise it here. However, I want to draw the OPW's attention to it and raise my concerns about the potential impacts of such a large development so close to Kilmacurragh.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Mr. Conlon said he spoke to the Minister before the delivery of these notes to the committee. Which Minister was that?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Did Mr. Conlon speak with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, regarding any of this?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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No Minister signed off on the €1.5 million security hut. What is the size of that building in square metres? It looks like the size of a large mobile home.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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We may find that out as well. It has been reported that vehicles, trucks especially, are having difficulty getting in and out of that space due to the size of the building, especially its roof. Has Mr. Conlon heard reports of that?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Would it be possible to get a list of the contracts that have been entered into by the OPW through the measured term maintenance contract so far? Is there a breakdown of all of the projects that were commenced, their value and what company received them?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Let us look at projects with a cost greater than €250,000. That is roughly the new bar being placed in terms of the decision-making process by the principal officer. Ken Foxe broke this story, and a number of journalists have sought information through freedom of information, FOI, and they have told us their FOIs are being blocked. They are not even getting an acknowledgement in terms of FOIs on this project and others. Obviously the OPW has a statutory responsibility of transparency and to adhere to FOI legislation. Why is that the case?
Mr. John Conlon:
They will be dealt with under FOI. I am not clear as to why it has taken so long, but they will be dealt with expeditiously. The decision-maker may have had some regard to the security implications of the information and may have been considering that but we will follow up very quickly with those requestors.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I understand that the former Chairman of the OPW went to study in Paris just the year before he retired. The taxpayer footed a bill of €35,000 for that. I welcome State investment in the education of staff, but it seems strange that such an investment would be made just before a person retires. Was that good value for money for the taxpayer?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Did he sign off on it himself?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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As chairperson, he signed off on that. It is startling that there is no oversight in terms of expenditure such as that. I imagine that education is more useful when it is front-loaded in a person's career when working for a State organisation. Putting that investment at the bookend of a person's career is of very little, if any, benefit to the taxpayer.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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A bit like Tony Holohan, he fancied a new challenge.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Midleton was promised flood defences after 2017. Obviously, there were horrendous floods there last year or the year before, which put lives in danger. My understanding is that despite flood defences being promised for Midleton after 2017, the planning application has not been submitted yet.
Mr. Jim Casey:
The Deputy is correct. The planning application for Midleton is not yet submitted. The design of the project is nearing completion presently. The occurrence of the extreme flood last October required us to review the design to check that it was capable of mitigating a flood event of the nature of that which occurred during Storm Babet. That design review has been finalised now and we are confident that the design option for the permanent scheme in Midleton will meet the required protection standard.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Is there any timescale for when the planning application will be in?
Mr. Jim Casey:
Our best estimate currently is that we will make a planning application for that toward the end of next year. In the interim period, a lot of work has been under way by Cork County Council and the OPW to identify interim measures that can be delivered before the permanent scheme. Our Minister and senior officials at the OPW and in Cork have been liaising throughout the summer on this and interim measures will be brought forward in the coming weeks to mitigate flood risk insofar as it is practical.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Can the witnesses understand the frustration, not just of the people of Midleton, but the people across the country at the grindingly slow pace of delivery for infrastructure, especially when it comes to non-politicians or average, normal or ordinary citizens? A flood risk was deemed so bad in 2017, it was promised that a defence would be built. During the floods, politicians from Dublin landed in Midleton, stood in high water in their wellies and told people that they would be looked after and sorted. Yet, here we are, talking about the end of next year potentially for a request for planning permission to go in. Planning permission has to go through the process, which could have objections or judicial reviews. There could then be difficulties in terms of funding and delivery. We are potentially five or six years away from the people of Midleton having a flood defence protecting them, which is quite incredible. That would mean that it would take probably 12 years since putting in place the flood defence was promised.
Mr. Jim Casey:
I can understand the frustrations of the community. That is why we are looking to bring forward interim measures as a matter of urgency in the meantime. We would like to deliver flood relief schemes a lot faster than is happening at the moment and we are looking at how we might do so. Some of the reasons it is taking so long in the case of Midleton is due to the complexity of Midleton. All four mechanisms of flooding are impacting on the community of Midleton, namely, tidal, fluvial, groundwater and pluvial. It is quite a complex flood problem and extensive environmental assessments and surveys have to be carried out on that. We have to come up with a scheme that meets the requirements of the community in consultation with local stakeholders. We do have to comply with all the regulatory and legislative frameworks that are there, including all the environmental frameworks. We are doing that as quickly as possible. There are constraints in the marketplace in terms of the services we need, such as the engineering design services and the environmental specialist services and in the carrying out of those services.
It does take a long time. Some of those surveys-----
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is taking too long. I know that this is not an OPW-particular project, but the Navan to Dublin rail line has been promised since 2002 and its projected completion date is in, I think, 2036. It was built in three years during the 1860s with picks and shovels. What is happening in this country in terms of the delivery of public infrastructure?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Check the legislation.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I know that it is legislation, and I understand we are heavily regulated in these spaces and that there is a need for a change in the regulations, but we also need to make sure the organisations that are tasked with these jobs do their best to make sure they happen in a reasonable and sane timeframe.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for allowing me to bring forward the local issue to which I referred before the committee, which I will do as soon as he can arrange. On the issue of coastal erosion, what actions have been taken in respect of the issues that have been highlighted? For instance, the part along the Wexford coastline was one of the ones that have been mentioned in recent times. There has been mention of the flooding in Roscommon, for which I understand planning permission for a scheme is being requested. People have visited my clinic regarding the Roscommon flooding issue and various reasons have been put forward as to why it should be part of a flood plain and so on. That is fine, but the people who are living there have a right to live, and the people whose roads are flooded permanently have a right to travel on those roads. The inconvenience to them is, obviously, miserable for everybody, but if it occurred one of our major cities, for example, it would have to be resolved quickly. We cannot just turn our back and say that because something happens a bit down the country, we need not treat it with the same seriousness.
By the same token, as I have said previously, this also applies to my constituency. I emphasise the tremendous work done in the past by the OPW in respect of drainage in Leixlip, Celbridge, Naas, Monread and other places. That was vital drainage, and while there were some objections, they were overcome, as they have to be for the common good. It goes without saying that when issues arise in the future along those lines, greater cognisance needs to be taken to be able to move with alacrity and say it needs to be dealt with because it affects the livelihoods of people, whether they live in an urban or rural area. It has happened previously in urban areas and we had to take action to deal with them. They need to be dealt with quickly and we need to get in front of the storm, both literally and metaphorically, before it starts.
The work of the OPW is very important, on behalf of the State, to maintain public buildings, spend money on them and ensure it has the right of access to the buildings it has responsibility for and maintains. If it does not have rights of way or access, it has a problem and needs to state that clearly and upfront. If we cannot maintain our public buildings and spend money on them at the same time knowing we do not have guaranteed access, questions will ultimately have to be answered. One of the questions that has to be answered arises when people say they have other plans for that area. We need the plans now. We need to ensure we have the answers because we as public representatives have to relay those answers to the people we represent. If we do not, we are at fault.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Following on from my earlier questions and linking together two issues that have come up, namely, the bike shed and the security issue, as I said earlier, I am familiar with the area. The witnesses stated that the place the OPW initially proposed for the bike shed would have cost significantly less than the one the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission opted for in the knowledge it would cost considerably more, if I understood what they said. I think they said the OPW had not had an exact estimate of how much more but that it was made clear to the commission that it would cost a lot more to put it where it ended up going.
The commission's opposition to the OPW's more cost-effective proposal related to security, but bicycles already enter from Merrion Street via that security hut - hundreds of them, I would say - and they are covered from the rain under the Department of agriculture, using just racks that I imagine cost next to nothing. It was just down from there that the OPW had proposed we would put a more cost-effective, cheaper bike shed. The security is dealt with, therefore, at that gate, past that security hut. There is no other security issue once someone gets past that gate.
Even if we were being doubly cautious, in any event there is another security gate, beyond where the OPW had proposed the shed would be put, which people can get through only with a security pass or if one of the ushers or service officers allows them in. I am bemused as to what possible security advice could have prevented the original proposal made by the OPW for a much cheaper bike shed. I cannot see it. Was any explanation, further than security concerns, given to the OPW as to why its original proposal was rejected by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission? I cannot for the life of me see what the security issue would have been.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
I think there might have been a second concern that it was located on the Merrion Square side for ease of access for Members and staff when they are coming in and they wanted it on the Merrion Square side. Bear in mind, however, I was not at the meetings myself. This is just what we are gathering from the communications on the file. There was a requirement to have it on the Merrion Square side for efficiency, I suppose, as well. We were not advised of the security issues. There was a preference for it on the Merrion Square side.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Maybe it is a question more for the commission, but I cannot see what the issue was, given people have to go past a security hut and gate, which they can get past only with passes and which many people do go past with bicycles every day. Once they have got past the gate, they can go to exactly the place the OPW was proposing to put a different bike shed, which would have been much cheaper. If there were a security issue, the security issue long pre-existed the OPW's proposal for a bike shed. In other words, there was not a security issue. I just do not see what it was. In fact, Ms Collier is suggesting it was a matter of convenience.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
No, I am saying the Members would have had a view on where it should go and I think they had a preference for the Merrion Square side, which was communicated to us. I am not here to tell the Deputy why they had that preference. I am just telling him what was in the email to us, which was that they had a preference for the Merrion Square side. That is all we have on the file.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They expressed a preference for the Merrion Square side but that was not linked to security.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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For the record, they are both on the Merrion Square side, as against the Kildare Street side.
I know the witnesses are just told what they are saying but it does not really add up to me. That is the point, particularly if there was going to be a very significant additional cost. Serious questions therefore must be asked about why the more expensive option was opted for, because I cannot see any possible security issues.
Very quickly, I seek advice from the Chair. We were supposed to discuss the children’s science museum, which is a very important issue. At least some of the people who have contacted us have suggested that this issue could be the bike shed multiplied by a hundred if we do not get it right. We are being left with very little time to address this. I am wondering what we should-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is 4.50 p.m. now and we were supposed to be out of this room by 5 p.m. We will therefore have to set another date with the OPW to continue that broader discussion on that particular issue.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I will comment briefly on that issue. I am not over the detail of all of this, but the idea of an Irish children’s science museum in and of itself seems to be a good one. The Iveagh Gardens, however, is a very important amenity and we must look at the potential impact on it, as well as the cost issues. Many questions have been raised with us and I believe thousands of submissions have been made that seriously question the location, the potential costs, the case for this, etc. This correspondence we received raises a number of detailed questions on what I think the OPW identified as our obligation to build this thing. It seems extraordinary that we have an obligation to build something. We could do with the OPW giving us answers to some of these questions before-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If that letter were to be given to Mr. Conlon and if he were to provide answers to those questions with a detailed note, we would be informed when we have the meeting. I ask the clerk to speak with Mr. Conlon to set an early date for that meeting.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have one last quick question. Mr. Conlon might not have an answer to it but maybe he could correspond with me. I tabled questions about the sale of Dalkey Garda station by the OPW during the summer. I certainly was very unhappy about that sale because in our area, we are crying out for public amenities and I do not understand why that space would have been sold by the OPW. I do not expect the representatives to give me a detailed answer-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We need a quick answer now, but we can follow up.
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
I can give the Deputy an answer to that. In the OPW, before we dispose of any State properties, we must go through the protocols for the transfer of State properties. There are two circulars from the Department of Finance that deal with that. Under those, we must first offer the properties to the local authorities, to the Department of children and integration and to the Land Development Agency. That was all done and no other State use was identified for those proprieties. Therefore, in accordance with our disposals policy, we put those two properties on the market.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is it the case that they were all offered it and they rejected it?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Right, okay. That is incredible.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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As a matter of interest, is that expression of interest in possible other public uses made public or is it just dealt with by one or two individuals in these organisations? How is that done? I mean the fact that the OPW is asking whether this could have other possible public uses.
Mr. John Conlon:
The fact is that we go to local authorities and the LDA, so obviously, we are trying to identify housing uses for those properties. We dispose of some properties to local authorities that are for uses other than housing, such as local enterprise, etc. We are quite clear that we follow that policy on disposal to the letter. We do give them time to consider it and respond. We do not rush it. It is up to them to make their decision.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Could the representatives furnish me at least with that because I am not sure if the committee is interested-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The committee, yes. We can follow up.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----with any correspondence or communications with the relevant bodies in relation to that?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure that we can seek this information through the committee and the OPW can provide it that way.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Has the sale gone through?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Sherlock.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank the Chair and I am conscious that this has been a very long afternoon for the witnesses. I must say it is extraordinary to hear that when we need buildings for childcare, art spaces, and a whole variety of uses, a building like that - although I do not know its dimensions - would end up on the open market.
My question is in regard to the office portfolio of the OPW. I understand that there are 340 leases for office spaces but the witnesses might clarify how many there are exactly. The rental expenditure is well over €100 million per year. Does the OPW conduct an annual audit of its leased buildings regarding those that are occupied, fully occupied, vacant or part-vacant?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
We are constantly monitoring the use of our office portfolio. At the moment, we have a very low level of vacancy. We have a vacancy rate of approximately 1% in our office portfolio. The introduction of blended working policies has allowed us to absorb additional requirements from client Departments. The number of civil servants has grown in the last few years. I do not have the exact figure to hand but it has certainly grown and we have accommodated that growth, largely within the same office footprint. That is why we do not see the great levels of vacancy that we may see in the commercial market.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Has any building leased by the OPW been vacant for 12 months or longer at this point?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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That is okay. I want to ask about Bishop’s Square, Dublin 2. I understand there are three leases there. I believe the combined cost of the three leases is €4.16 million, although those are the 2022 figures that were provided to Deputy Boyd Barrett. It may be the case that the amounts are greater now. I understand that when the leases were taken out, Bishop’s Square was left vacant for a considerable period. Can the witnesses tell me when those three leases with Bishop’s Square were taken out? Are they now occupied? What was the length of time it took from when each of the leases were taken out to when they became occupied?
Mr. John Conlon:
We can follow up on this further. I will ask Ms Morrison to help with this response. Bishop’s Square is a seven-storey building in Dublin 2. We have leaseholder arrangements in place for five and a half floors of the property. These are under different leasehold agreements. We first required accommodation there more than 20 years ago to house the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Justice and parts of the Department of Social Protection. In 2019, we entered into a lease for parts of the fourth, fifth and sixth floors of the building to accommodate the Department of Foreign Affairs. Since then, there have been some delays in finalising that and getting them in as tenants. This has primarily related to the Covid period, during which we were not able to accommodate work in the premises to fit it out. We also had significant landlord issues and landlord change during that period that we had to deal with. At the same time, we found ourselves having to deal with a significant Brexit project for which we had to prioritise other staff. Those are some of the reasons there has been a delay in getting the Department of Foreign Affairs into that building. It is now, I am aware, occupying the building but we had significant challenges in relation to the finalising the fit-out because of Covid, landlord issues and landlord change, as well as in the way in which our own internal challenges arose in trying to direct staff to a significant Brexit project and projects we had to do during that period.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Conlon for giving that detail. He mentioned that landlord change was one of the factors, but was the full amount paid every year for the duration of the lease? He might update me on the current cost of the lease. The 2022 cost appears to have been €4.16 million per annum. Was that paid every year by the OPW to the landlord, notwithstanding the fact that there were landlord changes when the building was vacant?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
I will have to come back to the Senator on that. I understand the €4.16 million figure was the total of the earlier leases that started back in 2002. The total rent at the moment is more than €6.5 million per annum. It was paid for a certain length of time when the building was being fitted out and the design completed, for all of the reasons the chairman has outlined.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I would appreciate the detail on what was paid and when. It is alarming that a substantial lease - the sums have been articulated - would be paid to a landlord when the OPW is not using the building. I appreciate the fit-out can take time, but we are talking about weeks and months for that, rather than years. There are concerns about Bishop's Square and the waste of money that perhaps took place. The question is whether that has been replicated across other buildings. Are there are other leases that have lain vacant for a period of time within the portfolio?
Mr. John Conlon:
We are working to the occupancy of the Distillers Building in Smithfield. Due to very complex design issues and the complexity of dealing with a new client, which involved the amalgamation of three State bodies into one, we have experienced significant delays in agreeing client and design requirements. That has created significant challenges for us in that space.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I do not mean to be pedantic. Is a lease agreed and then the design and fit-out worked out? It seems extraordinary that, on entering into a lease, the OPW does not have a very clear idea of how the building is used and a speedy fit-out takes place. I understood those issues would be ironed out in advance of taking a lease.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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What kind of rent is the OPW paying for the Distillers Building at this point in time?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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There was a rent free period. I am conscious of time.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I would appreciate if the witnesses could furnish the detail.
I am conscious that Mr. Conlon has only been in the role since April. What consideration or thinking has the OPW ever given to developing art spaces within the portfolio of heritage sites? I am thinking of Collins Barracks, in particular, which is a significant space and there would be interest in developing an artists' space there. As has been said in passing, the OPW may be a block on this. I want to hear whether it is open to that. I am not giving much detail. In principle, is the OPW open to those sorts of initiatives?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
The OPW has a long history of supporting the arts and culture sector in Ireland, in particular our national cultural institutions. In principle, it would support the idea of artist facilities. Collins Barracks is the home of the National Museum of Ireland and it has its ambitions and plans that we work on with it, in terms of what might happen there. At a high level, in principle the OPW has always been supportive of the arts and culture sector and we work with organisations like the Irish Architectural Archive, the Irish Traditional Music Archive and so on. We have worked with a lot of other clients, apart from cultural institutions. In principle, at a high level the OPW is open to those conversations, but the devil is in the detail.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Of course. I thank Mr. Conlon.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I want to go back to the €35,000 for study. What was that course?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That was in France.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The person had to attend there.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was the €35,000 figure for the fees or the overall cost?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That was to attend lectures and so on. The rest was probably online. Mr. Conlon said he did not want to put words in anybody's mouth. However, he ventured that this was to assist with a post-exit strategy in securing State board roles and so on.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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So I am clear, is that arrangement open to Mr. Conlon if he decides he is 38 years in and might retire in two years, but before he goes will do an MBA at Harvard?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is not even about Mr. Conlon. I am just asking.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon can see where I am coming from.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There is a threshold.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Allowed now.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon can understand where I am coming from.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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This is not about him or anybody here. I can understand if Mr. Casey was doing an add-on and intended to work for another 20 years-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is professional development. However, what has happened is taking the Michael at an extraordinary level.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking Mr. Conlon to make a comment. I am here not to defend the system; I am here on behalf of the people. As the Chair knows, we had the same in this room with Mr. Holohan at the health committee, where, in the Minister's words, "Tony wanted a new challenge". It seems Mr. Conlon's predecessor wanted a new challenge and spent €35,000 of taxpayers' money. You could not make it up. I am not running again. I wonder whether, in order to make me eligible for State boards - they would take me on - there would be any chance the Oireachtas commission might pony up and get me an aul MBS somewhere. There is no chance of that. Honest to God. I hate being hard on the witnesses, and I know they think I am over the top. They need to put themselves in the position of the punters.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have other questions. There must be surface-to-air missiles over in the security hut. There is no doubt about it. We will have another hearing on that one, and I do not care how much ducting or what security concerns were involved. I had not noticed the new building and had to look it up. I have seen it, with the roof looking like Trump's hairstyle. Some €1.4 million spent on it, and we cannot even see it. It is not even the main entrance; it is opposite the Merrion Hotel, which I cannot afford to go into.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Great. I understand that. I have no doubt that somebody tendered for the project in all the appropriate ways and the €1.4 million spent could not be better value. It is absolutely laughable in the extreme. Common sense and respect for the punter, the taxpayer, is well down the list compared to the protection of the status quo.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am not comparing like with like. This needs a meeting all on its own. Was either project entered for architectural awards and did they win any?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question for Mr. Casey. All politics is local, but I am not running again. Is coastal erosion-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should reconsider.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am not reconsidering.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be a loss to this House.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Definitely not. If you gave me 35 grand to do an aul MBA, I might stick around for a couple of years. Is coastal erosion under the remit of the OPW?
The western seaboard, as we know, is rotting away because the weather is the way it is. I am in the Sligo area and there are big problems where I live in Strandhill. The fantastic head of public affairs at the OPW also lives there and I am sure she will be filling in the witnesses. Have there been any applications or advanced plans from Sligo County Council to the OPW to tackle the issue in a strategic and wholesome way, as opposed to the reactionary approach we have been taking in the past 20 or 30 years?
Mr. Robert Mooney:
I will answer the Deputy's question. As he knows, the OPW has been engaging with local authorities throughout the country on an ongoing basis to deal with coastal erosion. It is a problem that is increasing and is likely to increase significantly in the coming years. In terms of taking a national approach, an interdepartmental report was done. It requires a national level approach for which the OPW has been assigned a leading technical role that involves assessing risk and identifying options. The intention is to elevate this above individual local authorities having to deal with the issue and to provide funding and a pathway for integrated coastal change management plans into the future. In answer to the Deputy's question, the local approach has been superseded by a national approach but there will still be continued support for local authorities in the intervening period. There is scope for projects of a scale that cannot be dealt with through minor works.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Mooney is talking about the minor works scheme, which is still there for people.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Have any applications relevant to coastal erosion in Strandhill been made by Sligo County Council to the OPW under the minor works scheme?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Mooney would know if there was such an application. I know, for example, that Galway might make approximately 17 applications per year and Sligo might make six per year.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There cannot be that many applications.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be safe to say there is no current application before the OPW?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Mooney check and come back to me?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Rosses Point is also an issue. A village, Strandhill, has almost fallen into the sea on one side. On the other side is Sligo Golf Club and so on. There is a big issue there. An important place called Shelly Valley is under threat. It would be preferable for Mr. Mooney to give me a note on the issue.
I worry that it is not going to be a local issue but a national issue. I am conscious-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am concerned. Fianna Fáil has been draining the River Shannon since 1946. We have not got there yet. Mr. Mooney will send me a note on the issue. I thank him and I apologise.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is the result of spending 22 years listening to similar answers, albeit not from Mr. Mooney.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Do not be stuck if you need somebody to do an MBA or anything. I am certainly available.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The OPW is going to undertake all of that in respect of the bicycle shed. Is that right? How much is that going to cost?
Mr. John Conlon:
There are a number of aspects to that work, including providing advice to me about value for money, etc. I do not have a final cost for that yet because we are still discussing it with our partner. I expect it to be in the region of €25,000 but I cannot confirm that until I have further discussion.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It will cost €25,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Conlon not use the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General?
Mr. John Conlon:
My approach will provide a quicker response. That comment means no disrespect to the Comptroller and Auditor General. He might well do his own thing on this issue and we will work with him. I want to get a response quickly, within five weeks, and that is why I am taking this approach.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Surely the way to do it is to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to see if he can give the OPW a quick turnaround for an overview. I have always found it to be a meticulous office. Surely the Comptroller and Auditor General would point out the OPW's shortcomings sharply and make suggestions, recommendations and so on. If the OPW has €25,000 to carry out that type of report, would Mr. Conlon consider carrying out a report headed by the question, "Is the administration of the OPW fit for purpose?" That is looking to the future and considering all we have heard today. I should not forget to mention that there are good people at every level in the OPW but they do not get the break. Should the OPW be considering its structures for the future to deliver all we are asking of it and value for money? Perhaps there are new and different management systems out there. It would be worthwhile considering that.
Mr. John Conlon:
Before I took over as chairman, the Department of public expenditure and reform completed a capacity review of the organisation, which is being considered at the moment. That will give rise to some actions, including the appointment of a new head of corporate services at board level to bring some framework to that. We will work through that over the next while.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is not answering the question. If a report or information is coming quickly to the OPW, the bigger question as to whether it is fit for purpose in its structures might suggest a need for someone with management expertise and expertise in change management to look at how its business is done. Its portfolio is quite wide.
Mr. John Conlon:
One of the options I am considering, and I have had some preliminary discussions with the Department of public expenditure and reform in this regard, is to further augment our management board capacity to include a particular focus on the operations of project governance. That is something I am considering. We have sought resources.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will come back to that point in the context of Estimates and everything else. The OPW was asked to provide this bicycle shelter. I advise anyone with a bicycle in that shelter to be careful because the bicycles are all wet. The shed offers no coverage. After the rain today, I advise anyone with a bicycle in the shed not to jump straight onto their saddle. The improvement of existing parking facilities for bicycles was asked to be considered. Is the OPW going to do any other work in response to the request for improvements?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking at the note here which states that a group of Members asked for the provision of these bicycle spaces. They asked for improvements to the existing bicycle spaces. Is it intended to carry out more work on locations for bicycles that already exist around Leinster House?
Mr. John Conlon:
That will be the subject of further discussion with the executive team in the Houses of the Oireachtas and, in due course, with the commission. I understand that request is with us but, as chairman, I want to fully reflect on where we are now on this issue and work forward from there. I am very conscious it is Government policy to provide more bike parking facilities across our estate in general to allow workers to avail of bikes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine, but not at this price.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. O'Connor talking about Leinster House 2000?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the structures.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I am talking about. Mr. O'Connor should never bring up something like Leinster House 2000. The OPW had to retrofit all the windows with little mortars so we could open them but now we cannot open them. You would want someone in the room with you to physically try to open them. Having said that, is it not amazing that the OPW kept the whole place running without a glitch but is blaming all sorts of things for the bicycle shelter? This place here could not be kept going and we could not deal with the election of a Taoiseach and all that sort of thing. That is the conundrum. There is good and bad, but the bad is bad.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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May I make one point on that issue? It is good to hear from the chief architect, who does fantastic work. Our job, however, is not to praise the fantastic work. It is to call out the glitches. I agree with Mr. O'Connor that the problem is not systemic. When there are glitches, however, the practice of the State is to circle the wagons and blame it on systemic failure because we will not hold anybody to account.
That is where I have a huge problem, with 22 years in here at various committees. It is with the order of priority - the individuals who command respect inside the system at the expense of those outside it. That is the problem.
Mr. John Conlon:
I have been clear. I am taking accountability for this particular project.
There was one comment the Chair made earlier that I want to be clear on. He made it before we had our break. It refers to the responsibility of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission for capital projects. The OPW has the capital allocation and is accountable in relation to capital expenditure here, not the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. I just want to make that clear. I am not sure if he meant it that way.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am quoting from the annual report. It states that the Commission is responsible for determining financial and administrative policy in the Houses. In doing that, I was drawing attention to the fact that they know about financial accountability, the Committee on Public Accounts and value for money and everything else and yet they would not even ask the OPW about the price before it went to deliver the project. It is an awful reflection on them.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know the capital allocation is the OPW’s. I understand that. I am talking about people that know things - people that are here long enough to know better. Apparently they have not taken up many learnings from all of the mistakes of the past.
Mr. Conlon said the security issues were not insurmountable and that on 26 April 2021, the options included the preferred option. The OPW was going through it and they were all informed. Who asked for the legal advice? Was it the OPW? Or rather, not the legal advice but the security advice? Was that given to the OPW by the commission or did the commission seek it?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was its side. The commission approved the plan presented by the OPW to proceed with the project, install a covered bicycle shelter and the location and so on, but the estimate was not there. Did the commission get a little booklet to say, “Here you are. That is what it will look like. There is the spec and we will come back with the price"?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That was to the commission, again.
I am interested in the comment here under heading No. 3: "However the assessment should have placed a greater emphasis on the value for money aspects of the project." In other words, value for money was a secondary thing. That brings me back to Deputy MacSharry’s point. The punter is always short-changed on all of these things. I think the political system is often short-changed as well and the politicians involved because we talk about value for money constantly. We may not achieve it all the time - I understand that as it happens in life – however, to the extent that it has happened and the multiple times it has happened, that particular emphasis should be first in the minds of people as a principle of consideration in any of these projects.
We have asked for all of those notes. I want to add to the OPW’s list and ask for all the local flood relief schemes in County Kilkenny and their status. I want an update on plans for the provision of a new Garda station in Kilkenny city.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Has the OPW considered that? I want to ask for the costs of the works on the Garda station in Bennettsbridge and the OPW's intentions in that regard.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know that. I am asking Mr. Conlon has An Garda Síochána approached the OPW for a new site.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That answers that one.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and the costings for the station in Bennettsbridge.
Finally, I mention the ancient document or poem "Pangur Bán". I have raised this numerous times with the Minister and I have been fobbed off. I am not going to be fobbed off any longer. It has been made available, I understand, by the authorities in Germany. I asked that it be displayed in Kilkenny Castle because there is certain significance to the poem with the cats and a company in Kilkenny that has made it famous, Cartoon Saloon. There would be a great promotional aspect to it for the OPW. There would be a very good win in it for the OPW. If it were brought to the castle I am sure Cartoon Saloon would be interested in its existence and its display. I ask the OPW to deal with it. I know there are issues around display and all the rest of it but I think that can be achieved and it can be done.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would like Mr. Conlon to get back to me on it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Last is all the information the OPW is to bring back to us. I am sure they have a note of it but the clerk will make available the transcript of the meeting. We ask that we would meet sooner rather than later on the issue on the minds of members about which we spoke about earlier. Deputy Boyd Barrett and, indeed, Senator Byrne are waiting for that meeting to take place as soon as possible.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the OPW officials for coming along today.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I understand the Central Bank is coming before the committee shortly. Could the group bring with it the person who ordered the removal of the ATM that was available in Leinster House but was closed during Covid.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the clerk can drop them a line.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We also have to write to the commission for the minutes of those meetings to see who attended and what was said. I thank the witnesses again.