Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I will read some formal notices. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of the place which parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

Our next order of business is our engagement with Mr Ger Deering, Ombudsman and Information Commissioner; Mr David Tang, principal officer; and Mr Barry Quirke, acting principal officer, all from the Office of the Ombudsman.

Before we start, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish their opening statements on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the witnesses. Mr. Deering will read his opening statement, which should last no longer than ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members who will have approximately ten minutes each. That should allow members to contribute more than once.

I call Mr. Deering to start his opening statement.

Mr. Ger Deering:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. I am pleased, together with my colleagues David Tang and Barry Quirke, to have the opportunity to present the Ombudsman annual reports for 2022 and 2023. I took up my role as Ombudsman early in 2022, so these two reports reflect the work and the achievements of my team during my first two years in office. I am very proud of how the team has performed, with energy and enthusiasm and with the central objective of helping the public firmly at our core.

While investigating complaints about unsatisfactory public services and improving the quality of public services is at the core of what we do, I am anxious to recognise good public service and help to ensure good practices and processes are acknowledged and maintained. I therefore take this opportunity to acknowledge the excellent work that is being done daily across our public services in what are undoubtedly challenging times for our country on many fronts. It is a fact that when the world around us is under increased uncertainty and pressure, we rely on our public services to support those who are vulnerable or suffering most. In particular, issues related to housing, healthcare and immigration have been to the fore during the years under review. Despite these challenges, we continue to drive fairness, transparency and accountability in the delivery of public services.

To ensure public bodies respect the dignity and worth of every individual interacting with them, we developed a guide for staff of the Office of the Ombudsman in 2023 to assist in ensuring public bodies and our office examine complaints through a human rights lens.

We have embarked on an engaging and visible outreach programme with the aim of ensuring people know we are here and how to contact us when they need our service. This includes engagement through national and local media, the public participation networks, citizens information centres and community, voluntary and social inclusion groups throughout the country. We find there is no substitute for meeting people and hearing their stories first hand. It is the best way for us to understand the impact poor services can have on a person’s life. It serves as a consistent reminder to me of how important the work of this office is. An enhanced awareness of the office and the service we provide has contributed to what continues to be a rise in complaints and inquiries each year.

In 2022, my office received a record number of complaints, 4,791, representing an increase of 19.6% on the previous year.

We also responded to over 6,700 inquiries, meaning the Office had approximately 11,500 engagements with the public that year. That is 11,500 attempts to assist people. 2023 was another busy year for the office. We received 4,465 complaints and 8,171 inquiries. That represents more than 12,500 engagements with the public in a single year, an increase of more than a thousand on the year before. We have continued to receive and process an increased number of complaints and inquiries so far this year.

The category of complaints that we received were largely consistent over 2022 and 2023. Local authorities accounted for the second highest proportion of complaints received in 2022 and the highest in 2023. These complaints concerned various topics, including housing, planning and traffic complaints. The different challenges faced by each local authority requires a level of independence and discretion in the delivery of their services. However, discretion can lead to inconsistency. We have witnessed some of that inconsistency in how different local authorities deliver their services and deal with complaints. In response to this, we have developed a model complaint handling procedure for use by local authorities. This procedure will soon be shared by local authorities and the public. I expect local authorities to implement the new procedure in order to better deal with complaints. I look forward to seeing it make real improvements in encouraging a more consistent and best practice-based approach that will result in improved service delivery and better handling of complaints.

Housing made up approximately 60% of all local authority complaints in both 2022 and 2023. It is clear that housing was and continues to be the biggest challenge facing our country. In response to this, in 2022 I held a workshop with NGOs working in the field of housing and homelessness. We have since put in place a housing sector team that is focused on responding to these housing cases. I also initiated a systemic investigation into the administrative processes around the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme. With this investigation complete, we are in the process of finalising the report for publication later this year. It is my hope that the implementation of the resulting recommendations will make real improvements in what has become a central mechanism for the Government in meeting the housing needs of thousands of people.

The sector that received the second highest number of complaints, 1,175 in 2023, was Government Departments and offices. The sector that had the third highest complaints in both 2022 and 2023 were health and social services, with 839 complaints received in 2023. These figures include complaints about the HSE, public hospitals and Tusla. People can feel vulnerable when engaging with health services and, therefore, it is important that such engagements are as good as can possibly be expected. However, such are the demands on our heath service, experiences can vary. This has been the experience of our office in recent years. In April 2023 we completed an investigation that culminated in the publication of In Sickness and in Debt. This was an investigation into the administration by the HSE of schemes that fund necessary medical treatment in the EU, EEA or the UK. The investigation was prompted by several complaints we received from patients who faced difficulty navigating the three different treatment abroad schemes. I was clear in my report that I welcome the fact that such schemes are in place and that they mainly work well. I was struck by the impact on the physical, mental and financial well-being that the process had on the complainants for whom schemes did not operate as I believed they should have.

The published report contained 21 recommendations that focused on improving the administration of the schemes, both moving forward and in the investigation of existing complaints. The co-operation of the HSE with this report is to be commended. It is a clear demonstration of how my office and public bodies can work together to improve services. The HSE accepted all the recommendations relating to it. As implementation progressed, more than 200 cases were identified for review and we have seen patients who were previously denied access to the schemes receive reimbursements. The implementation of the recommendations has also delivered positive change to the administration of all three schemes, ensuring that patients are now at the centre of all decisions.

My predecessors had undertaken many important investigations that culminated in various reports and recommendations. Part of my role as custodian of this office is to ensure that such good work is not forgotten and to follow up on progress on the implementation of those reports. Wasted Lives was a report published by this office in May 2021 on foot of a systemic investigation into the appropriateness of placement of people aged under 65 in private and public nursing homes. The report made a series of findings and recommendations covering a wide range of issues. These recommendations were accepted by the HSE. However, progress on the implementation of the recommendations has been disappointing. Broader issues such as the availability of suitable housing, suitable supports and access to healthcare professionals in the community have presented challenges. Recent industrial action in the HSE has disrupted the reporting of progress updates to my office. With those matters now resolved, it is my firm intention to push for further progress. I will publish a progress report later this year.

Grounded was a report published in 2021, which set out the investigations undertaken by the office since 2011 into the lack of access to transport for people with disabilities. In my 2022 annual report, I set out that leadership was required in this area and the time for further reports from various Departments had passed. I described the way in which people with disabilities continue to be denied access to personal transport supports as nothing short of shameful. Since then I have met with officials several times from the Department of An Taoiseach who sought to progress the matter. The Department has stated that its objective is to take an holistic view of all relevant transport schemes. It convened a senior officials group to examine the issues raised. It states that the national disability strategy that is being developed will also assist progress on these matters. Prior to publication of my 2023 annual report, I sought an update from the Department and this update is published on our website . While I welcome the Department of An Taoiseach’s involvement and see merit in this more centralised approach, I maintain that the continued absence of a lead Department and lack of action is unacceptable.

I note that in recent research by the ESRI, 56% of people say housing is one of the two most important issues facing Ireland. While our work on housing complaints and issues and our upcoming HAP report will hopefully contribute to improvements in this challenging sector, more still needs to be done. We are constantly listening, observing and consulting to establish where our focus should be and where we can make the greatest impact in the coming years. I also note that in the same ESRI research there was a rise in the importance of migration to respondents in Ireland, measured by the proportion of people who say immigration is one of the top two most important issues facing Ireland increasing from 3% in July 2022 to 14% in November 2023. There is, however, another important point to note from the ESRI research. In November 2023, Ireland ranked fourth most supportive of immigration in the 27 EU countries and the UK. At a time our economy and public services, such as health, are heavily dependent on migrants and while people are fleeing war, persecution, genocide and starvation, it is important that our public services treat all people living here fairly. They should be treated with respect and dignity. Our services should aim to meet the basic human requirements of people and should not contribute to the division that some people seek to sow.

I have sought to engage on this topic in a collaborative manner. I have engaged with senior officials of departments, with relevant bodies under the aegis of those Departments, NGOs, migrants and with people seeking protection, together with those helping to meet their needs. I have visited the sites at Mount Street, City West, Crooksling, Gormanston, Mosney and the Grand Canal. I have heard the stories first hand. I acknowledge the challenges faced by our public services in this area and I commend the tireless work being done in the face of these challenges. I have witnessed the commitment and humanity of the people working to deliver services, both staff and volunteers. I have questions, however, about some of the decisions and actions and I propose to bring more scrutiny to the actions being taken in this area.

It is the 40th anniversary of my office this year and we have several initiatives and events to mark this important milestone. I will take great pleasure in updating the committee on those events at a future date. We can rightly be proud of the achievements of the office over the past 40 years. The Ombudsman team has developed a strong and insightful knowledge and empathetic approach to dealing with complainants and complaints in what can be delicate and emotive circumstances. I thank them for their dedication and commitment. While we celebrate the achievements of the past, our focus remains firmly on the future. We will continue to work to uphold our commitment to ensuring better administration and delivery of public services. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for this opportunity and we are happy to take any questions the committee may have.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask one or two questions before I let in other members.

I note that Mr. Deering has said there is an inconsistency in how different local authorities deliver their services and deal with complaints, and as a result, we have developed a model complaint handling procedure. How is that working? Are local authorities receptive and collaborating?

Mr. Ger Deering:

We have just finished developing it. We have not rolled it out yet. In the next few months, we will work through the LGMA, the CCMA and all local authorities. I hope, on the next occasion, to tell the committee how the model is working. We have put a lot of work into developing the model. My hope is that it will be as successful as the model complaint handling system that the office developed for the HSE. Its handling of complaints has much improved over the years since its implementation. I more than hope that the local authorities will properly engage with our complaints process because some are good and some are not so good. Some are good at delivering the services. We find that even circulars and legislation can be interpreted and implemented differently by local authorities.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The model has not been rolled out and launched.

Mr. Ger Deering:

It has not, no. We did consult the local authorities in developing the model but they have not received it yet.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I asked that because some of the difficulties every public representative would get would concern the issue of the taking in charge of estates. There is the Department and Uisce Éireann.

Mr. Ger Deering:

Yes.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Every member will say how frustrating it is to deal with such matters. Has the public brought any of those kinds of incidents to the attention to the Office of the Ombudsman in terms of trying to deal with both a council and Uisce Éireann? I ask that because for ten or 12 years, there are estates that have been left in complete darkness with the roads not finished.

Mr. Ger Deering:

I am not aware that we have had many, if any, complaints about the issue of the taking in charge of roads or estates.

We do not interfere with the reserved function of the council and some of those matters might be reserved functions. In fairness, how they are dealt with before they get to actual members of the council might be something we could look at.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. In 2021, the Office of the Ombudsman published the Grounded report, which outlined the lack of access to transport for people with disabilities. The Ombudsman stated in his report that he met officials from the Department of the Taoiseach on a number of occasions but he also said the "lack" of progress was nothing short of shameful. We had a disability strategy from 2017 to 2022 and we already have obligations in respect of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities yet there is a lack of transport for people with disabilities. How come we remain stuck at an impasse three years after the Grounded report was published?

Mr. Ger Deering:

Indeed, it is not just three years. Ms Emily O'Reilly's spent time in this role and published a report. In fact, we are now 12 or 13 years into some of these schemes.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yet still the same problems.

Mr. Ger Deering:

It is still the same problem. We need to find a lead Department, and I respect the work done by the Department of the Taoiseach, and I am glad that it got involved. When I published my report last year, the Taoiseach at the time said he was going to bring together the Departments concerned to progress things. His officials have had a number of meetings and made some progress but, to my knowledge, there still is not a Department that is responsible for delivering this. In any action that is required, the first thing we need to know is which Department is responsible for improving this situation.

The Cathaoirleach mentioned the disability strategies that have been in place. There is another one in the making at the moment. I have been clear in my views that we need action. Of course, we need strategies and plans but in this area we also need action and I believe we need a Department to take responsibility for it.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The Ombudsman believes we need to get an Department or Minister who will be directly responsible.

Mr. Ger Deering:

That is my view. Unless the Department of the Taoiseach will deliver it but I think it would say that their role is one of co-ordination.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the Ombudsman because at the minute the approach is one of pass the buck and blame someone else. I want to know about access to public buildings. My own town of Cashel has a gold star. It was not until I went around the town with your chaps, who are dead since, and may they rest in peace, that we found out, even after being awarded a gold star, how much more needed to be done. We had an incidence in Leinster House and a lot of work needs to be done. We had representatives of the Irish Wheelchair Association here a couple of weeks ago and there was chaos. Maybe this matter has come the attention of the Ombudsman but we have asked representatives of Tipperary County Council to conduct an audit of all of its public buildings to see if toilets, etc., are accessible. I must say we found it unbelievable that people got caught in some of the places. After millions of euro have been spent on public buildings wheelchair toilets were not accessible. We had one incident where a girl told us about a public house that was alleged to be wheelchair accessible but the facilities were down steps. The public house was being passed off as being accessible for disabled people.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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At least in Dublin they put them upstairs.

Mr. Ger Deering:

A lesser known function of my office is that we have a role, under disability legislation, to deal with complaints about access to public buildings. It has surprised me that we do not get that many complaints. Maybe between all of us we need to make people more aware of their right to complain to my office. It is not just physical access. We would look at access to public services and public buildings as part of that. Does the body have an actual access officer, which they are required to do? Is the access official available and accessible? Also, are there barriers for people with disabilities?

One message that I would be happy to convey is that my office can deal with those sort of complaints. As I say, I am slightly surprised that we do not get more complaints in that space than we do. They are increasing but from a low base.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I might help. A girl called Michelle O'Shea from Golden, who is disabled, has a video out at the minute about access. I encourage people to look at her video.

Mr. Ger Deering:

We would be delighted to hear from her.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Shea has lodged a complaint and I will too. Ms O'Shea in contact with the Ombudsman.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests and it is great to see them here again. Guests attending some committees may feel like they are being interrogated but this committee is a bit different. I want to discuss the In Sickness and in Death report published in April 2023. Mr. Deering, in his statement today, said it was an investigation into medical treatment in the EU, EEA and the UK. A number of recommendations were made. Reports are vital. However, the Ombudsman investigates situations and publishes reports to make things easier. However, very sneakily on 1 July the grant money for cataract operations was cut by over 50%. The Ombudsman is pushing the boat up the hill and the Government is pushing it back down the hill against him. Such a situation must be very frustrating.

Every taxpayer in this country who pays their taxes to the State is entitled to some bit of care when it comes to health. I have been working on a case for a long time. The person is 17 years of age and she has been waiting 14 years for a hip operation. As she has cerebral palsy, all we have gotten are excuses and I have a very thick file to show for it. I have gone to four Ministers and a junior Minister, and I have had a private meeting. There are surgeons who can carry out the operation but unfortunately they are based in the States. This person recently turned 17, so she is not a child anymore. She is now an adult but she has moved into the adult system and yet there does not seem to be any avenue whatsoever to get this poor young lady any help. I have been stonewalled left, right and centre. Is there any way the Ombudsman's office or somebody's office would investigate the fact there seems to be a conflict of interest between surgeons here and surgeons in America? Obviously, somebody has to protect their patch but in the middle is a child who has been in pure agony for many years and all she is given are excuses. I am very interested in this matter.

I want to ask about the claim that housing made up 60% of the complaints. I am not surprised because housing has been a disaster for years. The Ombudsman specifically mentioned HAP. I call HAP a trap because anybody who is on HAP is never going to get out of it and will never be accepted on to an alternative housing list because they are, apparently, adequately housed.

A lot of the conditions are absolutely atrocious. For example, there is mould and dampness, which leads to other health complications. This committee is a way for us to assist local authorities to try to address this matter but at the same time we are stuck with a massive housing shortage. When homeless people are mentioned, one automatically thinks of the homeless out on the streets.

There are thousands of people in hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation and couch surfing.

Is there a way the committee might make recommendations to, and work with, the Ombudsman's office or the office of any other ombudsman, including the European Ombudsman's office, to try to progress the issues raised in Mr. Deering's reports? Those reports have been absolutely amazing. They have not been short of criticism but they also have not been short of praise. The 21 recommendations in the In Sickness and in Debt report will make a huge difference for people. I am trying to look for the good stories instead of the bad stories for a change, while highlighting that there are failings. On the issue of housing specifically, what can we do to get people out of the trap of HAP and substandard accommodation?

Mr. Ger Deering:

The Deputy referred to the treatment abroad scheme and the In Sickness and in Debt report. I am glad to say that is a good news story in terms of where have moved to and where we were previously. I will not go over the problems so much as the solutions we came up with and that have been implemented. Basically, we found that there was an overly bureaucratic implementation of the scheme. For example, where people got a letter from a doctor, perhaps signed by the secretary because the doctor was too busy, when they came to the end of the process, they found they could not obtain a refund of their money.

I wrote to Bernard Gloster, who came in as the new CEO of the HSE in March last year. I probably was one of the first to write to him. Certainly, I had the report on his desk within the first week of his appointment. We met him approximately two weeks later. I was very pleased with his response to our report, which was to accept all the recommendations. While there are 21 recommendations, two or three relate to the Department of Health. The vast majority relate to the HSE. I can say with certainty that the recommendations are not just being implemented. They are being implemented in the absolute spirit we wanted to see being employed. That is doing two things. First, some of the people who already had been denied refunds are now getting their refunds. I see the effect on the morale of the people in my office of being able to deliver that for those people. It is very important. Equally important is that our recommendations are being implemented now for the benefit of the people concerned. I meant what I said in my opening statement that we find now that the patient is at the centre of the process.

Going back to the Deputy's general point, everybody's first choice is to have treatment in the State. I have objected to the term "medical tourism", which I have heard used. Anybody who has had surgery knows it is not a nice place to be. The only place people want to go is home. Having to get on an aeroplane after undergoing surgery would be the worst possible thing. It is evident that people who go abroad for treatment are doing so either because they cannot get it here or cannot get it here in a timely fashion.

I ask the Deputy to contact us about the person he mentioned.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I certainly will.

Mr. Ger Deering:

I am not saying we can get an outcome but there may be a possibility of doing so. We certainly will look at what is happening in that case. We have come across complex situations where there are differences and disputes between various specialists. We do not get involved in what we call the clinical judgment but we certainly can look at the administration of particular cases.

In the case of the treatment abroad scheme, there has been a huge improvement for approximately 200 people who were in our system, having made complaints and all of that and, equally, for those coming down the line. That is why I highlight it as a very good example. If we can get the same approach from local authorities, we will be doing very well. We need people to buy into our reports. Our aim is always to work with the particular body. It is about getting an outcome for the customers, patients or people who engage with that body. It is not about scoring points or anything like that.

Regarding HAP, the Deputy gave a good example of the inconsistency about which we have spoken.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I was trying to be polite.

Mr. Ger Deering:

He talked about how once people are on HAP, their social housing needs are sometimes deemed to have been met. However, it is not actually that clear. Some local authorities have what they call a combined housing list whereby even if people enter into HAP, they remain on the housing list in some shape or form or perhaps where they were previously. What is possibly lacking sometimes is transparency as to where they are on the housing list. Other local authorities operate two completely separate lists and it is very hard to see how being on a HAP transfer list, as it is called, will ever entitle people to social housing.

The Deputy asked what the committee can do to assist my office. In that particular instance, we will be very happy to come back to members with our HAP report, which we will have available in the next couple of months. We would welcome an opportunity to discuss it with members and for them to put their considerable weight behind it, as a committee, in terms of trying to get local authorities to implement our recommendations. This will be slightly different for us from other cases on which we have worked. With the HSE, we could go to the CEO and get a commitment and buy-in. In this case, we need buy-in from 31 local authorities. There are different personalities in the various authorities. My staff and I have dealt with them regarding complaints. We find some of them are very open to listening and hearing, while others simply are not. This is an area where we would welcome input from the committee.

More generally, we would seek the support of the committee to have the recommendations in our reports implemented, whether they relate to an individual complaint or a systemic investigation and report. All I can do is issue a recommendation. Some of the members have dealt with me quite a bit in a previous life, where my decisions were legally binding. That is not the case in my current role. I am not seeking legally binding powers. I do not think they are necessary. What is necessary is to be able to come into the committee and discuss matters. For example, in future, my plan would be to come in here to discuss cases where we have organisations that decide not to implement our recommendations, discuss why that is so and perhaps discuss using some moral suasion to encourage people to implement those recommendations. We do not land the recommendations on the bodies. We give them an opportunity to comment and to feed into our investigations. We present considered views and recommendations after having heard from the complainants and the people concerned, obviously, as well as from the public body itself.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I look forward to the Ombudsman's report. No matter what situation we are discussing, it seems to be the case that if communication breaks down, everything breaks down. Without having a conversation, nothing will happen. I am very happy to come back to Mr. Deering's office with details of the case I raised.

I have one more question, if the Cathaoirleach will allow it.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Work away, Deputy.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Deering said in his opening statement: "To ensure public bodies respect the dignity and worth of every individual interacting with them, we developed a guide for staff of the Office of the Ombudsman in 2023..." Has that guidance been rolled out? Sometimes, people come into our offices to talk about how terribly they were treated by such-and-such an organisation. They describe people hanging up the telephone. I understand that the staff taking those calls are hearing from people who are very irate, angry or upset. Can the committee and the Ombudsman's office work together on addressing this issue? It is about helping everybody and harmonising things.

Mr. Ger Deering:

We would be very happy to share that guide with the committee. It is available on our website. While it is a guide for our own staff, we encourage others to use it. When we come to investigate a complaint, that guidance is the lens through which we look at it. For example, we will ask whether consideration was shown for the person's human rights.

It is important to point out that, as we are all aware, in every walk of life, unfortunately, there are people being unreasonable and unfair to public officials, people working in supermarkets and so on.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.

Mr. Ger Deering:

That is not acceptable and we never condone it. We do not expect public servants or officials to put up with bad behaviour. Parking that, we do expect that public servants treat everybody with respect and dignity. There is a lot of research in this area of human rights but I boil it down to the question of how people would like to be treated themselves and how they would like their family members to be treated. It is about respect and dignity. In the vast majority of cases, that is how people are treated.

In our annual report for 2023, I outline a case study involving a family in Cork and their application for housing. It was not about whether they got a house. It was about how they were dealt with by the local authority and the communications they received. I felt that treatment was inappropriate. I engaged with the council, I met the family members in their home and I met the chief executive of the local authority. The result was that we recommended an apology be made to the family. We featured that situation as a case study to highlight that people are entitled to be treated with respect and dignity. I am not so sure that the people who are finding themselves having to camp on the street at the moment are being treated with respect and dignity.

As a country, I do not think that is the treatment we should be giving to anybody. That is why we are looking at things through a human rights lens and seeing if we are treating people the way we want to be treated ourselves.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I will start off by saying that Mr. Deering has a fantastic staff in the Office of the Ombudsman. There have been two occasions in my life where I had to engage with his office and on one of those occasions the office could not assist me and the official that was dealing with me was fantastic in the way he explained the situation. That is so important when one is under pressure and needs an answer and an answer is not coming through one's office. That is really important.

The other occasion leads to the question I want to ask Mr. Deering. It was a case that went on over a number of years where I simply could not get an answer to a question. I eventually drove to the Department in question, sought to meet the man who was looking after the issue and as I was standing and speaking to the security staff I heard him say over the phone, "Oh Jesus, tell him I am at a meeting.". I said, "Tell him I will be on that chair until he comes out". He came out at 4'o clock in the evening. That was from 10 o'clock in the morning. When he came out he promised me he would reply the following day. He did not so I got onto the Office of the Ombudsman and within a week I had a letter from Mr. Deering's office saying, "I understand the issue has been resolved.". At that stage I knew nothing about the issue being resolved but the following day I received a letter from the Department saying, "We are terribly sorry, we forgot to answer your several letters and we have answered them today." The issue was resolved immediately.

This brings me to a question about when a member of the public is being frustrated to that level - in this case, this went on for seven years - where he or she simply cannot get an answer to a letter. After one letter from the Office of the Ombudsman, however, all of a sudden all of the shutters are lifted and the light shines in and the office gets an immediate answer to its query. For the member of the public that is extremely frustrating while for the Office of the Ombudsman, it is really encouraging to know it has that power. How many cases are closed immediately after the first letter, or is that unusual?

Mr. Ger Deering:

No, it is not unusual. We have a category we call non-response to correspondence. In the normal course of events we would want a complainant to go to the body, make the complaint, sometimes there is an appeal and they can do that, and only then would we normally deal with the complaint. We have a separate stream or category for non-response to complaints. Sadly, there are a good number of them. Neither of my colleagues has figures to hand but the answer is that there are too many of them. It is one of the reasons we have put together the model complaints handling system for the local authorities because we find a large percentage of non-response to correspondence or requests complaints are related to local authorities. I am glad the Senator had a good experience and I agree with him. I acknowledge the staff of the Office of the Ombudsman, who are very committed in what they do. It is very easy for me to come here and talk about what we do when those staff do what they do. A wonderful culture has been built up over the 40 years. We expect people to give a reasonable time for a response - and the Senator outlined an unreasonable timescale there - but if people cannot get a response from a body they can come to the Office of the Ombudsman.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I mentioned the telephone conversation and I personally had one with Mr. Deering himself. I did some work in Limerick in Citizens Information and very often we would get people who were in an extremely frustrated and angry state of mind and we had to take the time to get them to calm down and explain the case. Not everybody can put his or her case in writing. Some people have great difficulty in drafting a letter or a case. Is there a facility within the Office of the Ombudsman for someone to ring to make an appointment and go to the office to speak to someone?

Mr. Ger Deering:

Absolutely, in that regard I was glad to hear that the Senator made the telephone call. We have what I call "old fashioned innovation". We actually answer the telephone and talk to people or we are happy for them to come to the office. Increasingly, people are happy to use the website and the form that is there and to make the complaint that way. Absolutely, however, people can make an appointment and come in to meet us. They can ring us up and we will talk to them. We are having a huge increase in the number of contacts through the office. These are people who are looking to understand what it is we do and whether we can help them or not. Part of that is due to the outreach we are doing. We are doing a lot of outreach. We started this year, in particular, to engage with the public participation networks in each county, that the Senator probably is familiar with. We are engaging with those people. What we want, as politicians are, are champions out in the community who know if someone has a problem, complaint or issue he or she can go to the Ombudsman. Yes, we are happy to take phone calls or have people come to the office itself.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is fantastic. Nowadays, it is not uncommon when someone books a hotel to get an email asking him or her to rate their experience when they get home. Does the Office of the Ombudsman do that? Back in the day when I used the office - it was an awfully long time ago, let us not go back there - we were still using snail mail and were certainly not using email. Does the Office of the Ombudsman do a follow-up to assess and measure the performance of its office through statistical analysis?

Mr. Ger Deering:

We do not have exactly what the Senator is talking about but we have introduced some new measures recently to try to understand where our complaints are coming from. For example, and it is completely voluntary and people do not have to respond but I am happy to say many do, we ask people their socioeconomic background, where they are coming from - whether it is from marginalised groups - and all of that. We also ask the age profile of people to try to understand if we are reaching the right people. That is something we would be happy to introduce to get feedback on our own performance, yes.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Am I okay for time, Chair?

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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You are okay.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The other thing that bothers me - and certainly from within here it is a problem and if so, it must be a problem for the Office of the Ombudsman - is trying to nail down the lead Department. We find that in so much of what goes on in our society, one part of it belongs to one Department and another part to another Department and trying to get to the person who should answer the question is sometimes extremely difficult. Is that something that frustrates the Ombudsman's staff?

Mr. Ger Deering:

Probably not to the same extent because over the years we have dealt with so many different people. I understand the frustration it is. We have liaison or go-to people in each Department so we are probably able to get there more quickly but I think the handing of people from one Department to another can certainly be a frustration for the person who is trying to get the service.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I note the number of complaints fell between 2022 and 2023. Was that possibly due to people having little more to do with their time due to having to sit at home during Covid?

Mr. Ger Deering:

There was a more straightforward reason. We got a quite number of complaints about the Passport Office in 2022. The Senator may remember there were long delays. It was post Brexit and there were a lot of extra people looking for passports. There had been a backlog during Brexit so we had approximately 800 complaints. Interestingly, taking those 800 complaints out as being a slight anomaly during those two years, we would probably be up approximately 400 complaints. There is a steady increase in both contacts and complaints.

When the Senator asked about whether we get feedback from customers, I should have said that while we do not get feedback from customers we have an in-house quality assurance programme where we look at a certain percentage of complaints we have dealt with to glean feedback from that ourselves and improve our services. Also in terms of accessibility, the Senator asked if people can telephone and come into the office, people can even send us voice notes, especially for people who might have a visual impairment methods such as that might suit them better.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I want to deal with the thorny issue of migration, that Mr. Deering dealt with and showed great compassion about when he spoke. I think I am one of the only Members of the Oireachtas who actually went to Sicily to look at the wretched people being brought in from the Mediterranean Sea. The Italian Government invited us out at the time. I do not want to sound cold when I say this. I want to be factual. In Sicily, I met people who were genuine refugees chasing away from horrendous circumstances and lives. I also met people who were what I was myself in 1968, and that is an economic migrant. Taking the categorisation of people coming into the country first, I have no difficulty with economic migration. I was one and we claim 700 million people worldwide are in some way tied into the Irish diaspora.

I do not have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the disregard for the public interest. We do not go into communities and speak to them before we open a centre in them. I had a panicked phone call one Sunday night that a stately home, an old home that was locked up for years, was about to be opened and filled with rapists. The woman who spoke to me was genuine in every way. This was all built up by rumour and whatever else. I wonder, because the Office of the Ombudsman tends to be straight in its dealings, whether the Ombudsman thinks we are not straight enough with communities.

It was brought up yesterday in the Seanad that the girl who was badly beaten in Limerick, Ms Natasha O'Brien, is now being attacked. When you analyse the people who are attacking her, they are the same people who are attacking migration, protesting outside politicians' houses, and marching up and down O'Connell Street with the tricolour rapped around them. There is a nasty group in society. Would we benefit if we were more straight and honest with people, particularly those coming into the country if they felt safe enough coming in to clearly identify which cohort they fit into?

Mr. Ger Deering:

I definitely agree that in an ideal world we would benefit from more consultation, but I have seen at first hand the pressure the organisations that are trying to find accommodation are under to get accommodation. I would have a certain sympathy where the alternative is to simply give people a tent and tell them to go somewhere rather than having to bring them into a centre quickly.

The Senator mentioned what somebody said to him. The suggestion that these people are somehow rapists is outrageous. Even if anybody wanted to study the area of abuse, the vast majority of abuse is carried out by people whom people know - the members of their own family.

It is unhelpful that the term "single men" has been used because we do not know if they are even single men. They could be married men who have come ahead, like so many Irish people did, as the Senator mentioned. When the economic circumstances did not permit here because there were no jobs, fathers would go abroad and earn money and they would return at the weekend or maybe not for some time.

I share the Senator's view of this demonisation of the term "economic migrant". It somehow now has a very negative currency whereas the Senator is right in saying Irish people went all over the world as economic migrants to work. Indeed, they are still going abroad. They are not even economic migrants now in the sense that they have just decided to have a different experience.

We have very different labels we put on people who come to the country and who leave the country, even down to how we sometimes refer to people here as being illegal. If it is an Irish person in the United States, they are undocumented. Language is important in how we deal with and treat people.

I would not be critical, to be honest, of the lack of consultation in the current situation. What I would be critical of is the lack of planning, planning that should have happened before. There are State resources. We look at Crooksling. There are 150 acres out there. That has not been used for a number of years. We look at Thornton Hall in State ownership for 20 years. It is the lack of planning that has led us to where we are. I also worry that some of the decisions made have more to do with discouraging people than anything else.

These are my concerns. I have a real concern, and I am beyond sad and upset, to see the canal being fenced the whole way. I wonder how much of the city we are to fence off. How much are we to pay for all of these fences and fencing off the city instead of putting it into accommodation and accommodating people?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am delighted a man of Mr. Deering's stature has maintained the independence of the office his forbearers had. It is so important we have Mr. Deering there. Most important, I would like the Ombudsman to tell his staff how much they are appreciated. At a time of crisis, the people need somebody they can trust and turn to. Over the 40 years of the Ombudsman's existence, we have always known we could pick up the phone to the Ombudsman. If nothing else, you will be listened. That is important. I thank Mr. Deering for that.

Mr. Ger Deering:

I thank the Senator. I will convey that message.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We also want to be associated with what Senator Craughwell has said. Coming back to the immigration end of it and the integration in communities, we see people being moved who have been living, for example, in Borrisokane in my county of Tipperary, for ten or 12 years and are integrated into the football clubs, the Tidy Towns and the whole lot. What are the Ombudsman's views on that? We are uprooting more families now. It does not sit right with a lot of people that they have welcomed immigrants into their communities and now these families who have been part of those communities are being uprooted.

Mr. Ger Deering:

I do not have the solutions to that. The bigger problem here is the housing issue because, in an ideal world, what those people should be doing is moving on. I understand the difficult that IPAS has. It has 5,600 people now who have status and who are in centres. Instead of having people in tents on the streets in Dublin, we should be able to move these people into the centres that were designed for international protection applicants but the problem is we do not appear to have places for the people in those centres to move on. For me, the solution is not really keeping people in the centres. It is devising a system of housing and integration into the community. The difficulty we have is, because housing is so scarce, this could be presented as competing with other local people whereas the people coming out of the centres, as the Cathaoirleach says, have been integrated into schools and into jobs and they are part of the community. We have to find a way to keep them in the community but I do not see keeping them in the IPAS centre as the solution.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Craughwell was talking about the language that is being used. The Ombudsman himself said it. Has the Ombudsman had many complaints about, for example, local radio or national radio? As we said, it is scandalous that people are being painted as rapists, paedophiles, undocumented and unvetted. In some stations, there does not seem to be any impartiality to try to stop that kind of language being used. It feeds into the situation and there are people who use others' fear to whip up a lot of anger.

Mr. Ger Deering:

Local radio would not be something that would fall within our jurisdiction to deal with. It would be Coimisiún na Meán, as far as I know, that would deal with those.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In 2020, the then Ombudsman, Mr. Peter Tyndall, was dealing with complaints about water services. Irish Water, or Uisce Éireann as it is now known, was set up to take control of this. We see boil-water notices daily, and there are places with water outages, etc., for months. There is frustration among the public and ourselves. We have a direct line to the organisation, trying to get answers. Is it something that should be brought back under the Ombudsman, as it was before, where there is a direct line there?

Mr. Ger Deering:

I think it should. It is a public service. In fact, it is very much still integrated, as far as I can see, into the local authorities. Even though Uisce Éireann has been set up as this independent separate body, the local authorities still play a major role from what I can see. The short answer to the Cathaoirleach's question is that I believe we should be able to deal with complaints in that area.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement the Ombudsman said, "The Ombudsman team has developed a strong and insightful knowledge and empathetic approach to dealing with complainants and complaints in what can be delicate and emotive circumstances." With the Ombudsman's current resources, what does the future look like? Does he reckon that future will guarantee timely, efficient and effective resolution to complaints?

Mr. Ger Deering:

At present, we are coping pretty well. In fairness to the staff, even though we have the increases we have had, we are closing 80% of complaints within three months and 92% within six months, which is pretty good. Our aim is always to close the complaints as informally as we can and as quickly as we can and get a resolution for the person.

No public body would ever come before the committee and say it has enough resources. There is no question we could do with more resources and it is something we are looking at. One of the areas we are pushing strongly on at present is that there has been a commitment since 2019 that prisoners and prison services should come within our remit. I believe strongly that they should come within our remit. That will probably require additional resources and we are looking at that.

I will not say we would not use more resources if we had them, but we are managing pretty well as we are. As we expand our role, there is no doubt we will need to have additional resources accordingly.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Deering satisfied the recommendations his office has made are being implemented? He has noted his frustration about the implementation of recommendations outlined in the Wasted Lives report on the nursing homes issue. Are there other areas in which he is finding there is more resistance and is there anything the committee can do to improve that?

Mr. Ger Deering:

To be fair regarding Wasted Lives, there are particular circumstances that delayed that project, though we have some views on how it could be speeded up. We have been talking to the HSE in recent weeks and we are going to engage pretty strongly with it. It had specific issues that were causing it difficulty. I will be engaging with the executive and would welcome an opportunity to come back to the committee after that to talk about how we might jointly approach this. If we could get the HSE - and I believe we can - to apply the same rigour to Wasted Lives and approach it in the same way it has In Sickness and in Debt, I believe we can make more progress there. Where this committee could help us a lot is to try to talk to the people who were responsible, if it can identify them, for access to transport for people with disabilities. That is the one that is not progressing and it is a concern. Our office has been pushing this for 13 years now. Unfortunately, there is a theme across some of the things where we are finding problems that those who are perhaps more disadvantaged in society do not seem to receive the same attention as others, and that is a concern I have. If the committee were to look in more detail at that area, it could have an influence for sure.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I give a guarantee on that and I think other members will as well. We hope to get Mr. Deering back as early as possible in the new term to address the housing issues discussed earlier and disability.

Mr. Ger Deering:

Yes. The HAP report, disability and Wasted Lives are three things we could engage with the committee on regarding progress. I hope there will be progress.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I hope so. Does Deputy Buckley have any comments?

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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None other than thanking Mr. Deering. It has always been a pleasure. Some committees think it is a bashing competition, but we like to try to make it as progressive as we can. When you open up the art of conversation, it is amazing what things you can do and the things that can happen.

The Chair mentioned Uisce Éireann. Its to-and-fro servicing, even with us as elected representatives, is very shoddy. I am dealing with a boil-water notice in east Cork for the past six years. More than 10,000 people are affected. It is getting worse now and I am being told the same thing, which is to boil it. Vets are saying pets are getting sick. People are getting sick even from brushing their teeth. There was an incident in Dublin city not too long ago where there was a major water main break and it was possible to get tankers in within an hour, yet six years down the road we have 10,000 people who are still boiling water. There has been very little engagement except copy-and-paste replies. I said I would flag that to see whether there is anything we can do on that with Mr. Deering's office. Uisce Éireann is supposed to be supplying a service. I made the point the other day at the committee that it is funny people are still being charged for water even though they cannot use it. Meanwhile, for only a fiver a month you can provide water for a whole village in some places in Africa. We are talking about millions here and thousands of people are still without water in 2024.

I thank Mr. Deering as always for excellent engagement. I am looking forward to him coming back. I hope we will be coming back again to listen to him.

Mr. Ger Deering:

On what Deputy Buckley was saying, there would have to be a Government decision for Uisce Éireann to be brought within our remit. That is not something we can do ourselves.

I was remiss when the Chair asked me what the committee can do. The other place it could help is for prisoners to have access to our complaints mechanism. We have done a lot of work with the Department of Justice. We believe all that is required at this stage is a statutory instrument from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform to allow prisoners to access us. That is somewhere we would welcome the support of the committee as well.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I can guarantee that as Cathaoirleach, and I would say there will not be a problem with it. We will do what we can and encourage Mr. Deering to make contact once he gets a reply from the HSE. We can then ask him back again. As others have said, it has been very informative and it is lovely to get someone in who is so forthcoming with information. As we all know, there are times dealing with Departments when it is not a nice or pleasant situation. All the ombudsmen are forthcoming, to be fair. If Departments were the same with information, the public service would run an awful lot more smoothly.

I thank Mr. Deering, Mr. Tang and Mr. Quirke for being with us. We look forward to bringing them back in as soon as possible when we return. We will suspend to allow the witnesses to leave.