Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The public business before us this afternoon is: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, consideration of the committee's draft work programme and any other business. The first item is the minutes of our meeting of 4 July, which have been circulated to members. Are all members happy with the minutes? Does anyone wish to raise any issues? I will take it that the minutes are agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

We will move on to accounts and financial statements. Six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 1 and 5 July 2024. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address these before opening the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

First we have the travellers' protection fund and travel agents and tour operators fund accounts for 2023. These received a clear audit opinion. The second is the Defence Forces canteen board accounts for 2023, which also received a clear audit opinion. The third set of accounts is for Rásaíocht Con Éireann. These accounts received a clear audit opinion. The fourth set is for the Special EU Programmes Body, one of the North-South bodies. These financial statements relate to 2022 and received a clear audit opinion. The fifth set of accounts is for the Office of the Planning Regulator for 2023 and received a clear audit opinion. The sixth relate to Enterprise Ireland and are for 2023. These received a clear audit opinion.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a quick question. It is not on this but on something we talked about this morning, the EU funds that are not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Who audits those?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Auditors are appointed by the Department of agriculture and a report goes to the European Commission.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They have some oversight.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is an oversight system, yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Deputy referring to agricultural funding?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This fund is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and his counterpart in the North.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The SEUPB accounts are audited jointly, yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I cannot remember her name but we met her here.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Her name is Dorinnia Carville.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is her. She seemed very competent. I again notice the cross-Border bodies always seem to receive a clear opinion. I suppose that is down to the fact that there are so many sets of eyes on them.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not know. There is obviously a deterrent effect but I am sure they are doing their business properly.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is encouraging to see. I just wished to acknowledge that. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

We will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence will be recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meeting and published on the committee’s webpage.

One item has been flagged for discussion under category C, correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. R2711, received from an individual and dated 2 July 2024, is correspondence from a member of the public regarding matters examined at the committee’s meeting with the Office of Public Works on 13 June 2024. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I am sorry; it is agreed to note this item, not to publish it. Deputy Murphy and I have flagged it for discussion. Would Deputy Murphy like to come in on it first? I have it here if she would like me to go first.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Which one is it?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is the one relating to the OPW from its former head of professional services.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It had to do with Castletown. I doubt we will be given the legal advice but we did ask for some additional information last week. That is probably the extent of what we will get. There is one item of note. What instruction was given to OPW valuers with regard to Castletown?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The correspondence is from Mr. Allen Morgan, head of property advisory services in the OPW. Leaving aside the 541 office properties, there were 1,559 that are not classified as offices. I suggest that we ask the OPW to provide a note on those other 1,559 properties, categorising their purpose under different headings. On the other issue, I recommend that the committee formally request the OPW to provide a note on the legal advice it obtained from Patrick Leonard SC and Denis McDonald, as instructed by the Chief State Solicitor's office. Is that agreed? That is agreed along with Deputy Murphy's proposal, which is similar.

There is an item I would like to discuss that was not flagged, No. R2722, received from Deputy Catherine Murphy and dated 4 July 2024. It proposes that we seek further information from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to correspondence No. R2698, which we discussed last week. Deputy Murphy proposes that the committee request a schedule containing the names and origins, that is, the stable or yard, for the horses referenced by number in the correspondence. The Deputy mentioned this to the Department this morning. Would she like to come in on this matter?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I teased it out a little bit. I believe the Department agreed to give us the information I was looking for but it is not as clear-cut as I thought it was. I am happy to wait to see what it sends us.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is happy enough with that. That concludes our section on correspondence.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did I not flag the correspondence regarding Tusla and Children's Health Ireland?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. Only the two we have discussed were flagged. Does the Deputy want to speak on that item?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will be very brief. We are all aware of the money that was allocated for a specific purpose and was then not spent on that purpose. It would be worth our while to write to CHI to ask how that decision was made.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We should also ask who made it. We will look for that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will raise a second issue very quickly. Tusla came back to us with the number of children and young people reported missing. A footnote states that they were in non-statutory, non-regulated and non-procured placements. We understand that non-statutory means that it was not a State agency. It jumps out at me that these placements were non-regulated and non-procured. How can a placement be non-procured? Did the children find placements for themselves? How were they sourced?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I believe Tusla means that the procurement was non-compliant and that something was just booked without going through a procurement process. That is my interpretation but Tusla could clarify the matter. It has said that such placements can include hotel, bed and breakfast or privately rented accommodation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I recall the day the Accounting Officer was before us and I believe I know what her response would be.

First, Tusla is struggling to get accommodation. Then there is the issue of providing supervision where the minors are going into accommodation that is not State owned or only partially so. This is typically private accommodation such as bed and breakfast accommodation, hotels or whatever else. There may not be time to act if an emergency arises. That is what is happening. The Department of children-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I know that that is happening. It is just-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know what impression Deputy Murphy got but I got the impression at that meeting that there were minors literally landing at the front door of Tusla and the agency was being asked to look after these young people. Accommodation and somebody to supervise had then to be found instantly. It is a totally unacceptable situation. Is the Deputy okay with that response?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. 4 on the agenda is the work programme. Members have been circulated with the draft work programme discussion document. It is displayed on members' screens. Next week we will break for the summer and we will resume on 19 September with a meeting with the Business Committee. In the first weeks of the autumn term, we have prioritised meetings with Uisce Éireann, the HSE, the Charities Regulator, the Land Development Agency and the University of Limerick, UL. The order of these meetings may change depending on availability. Does any member wish to comment or add to the programme?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If we are adding another meeting to that list, Children's Health Ireland is one that comes to mind. CHI will also have responsibility for the national paediatric hospital and there are a few issues there that would be worth discussing with it. How money is allocated and spent is certainly an area I would like to explore further with it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have noted that. I suggest we try to front-load the meeting with UL, if we could. I know it was at the end of the list I read it out but I suggest we put it near the front of the queue. The meetings do not have any particular order and none has been given priority over another. With the committee's agreement, I ask that we bring in UL on the first or second slot? Is that agreed?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. I am very anxious that we do not push Uisce Éireann down much further because the amount of money involved is gigantic.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are trying to meet Uisce Éireann first. There should not be any problem with that because the accounts-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The accounts are signed. They have not been published yet, but they are signed.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Let us try to agree on this. I agree with Deputy Murphy that we should meet Uisce Éireann first. We will try to target that meeting for the first week, subject to availability, and then have a meeting with UL in the second week. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is fine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know the secretariat will do its best to try to jig those arrangements around. That concludes our consideration of the work programme for the day. The last item on the public agenda is any other business. Do members wish to raise any matters under this heading? No.

The committee will now go into private session, briefly, before adjourning until 9.30 on Thursday, 19 September 2024. Gabhaim míle maith ag gach duine.