Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The select committee met in private session at 9.19 a.m. and resumed in public session at 9.24 a.m.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. I invite the rapporteur to the committee to say a few words.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I am the rapporteur to this committee which has been engaging since last autumn with a wide range of witnesses to discuss the future of local government in Ireland. Today's witnesses range from chief executives of local authorities and public representatives to members of academia and the general secretaries of our headquarters, who have responsibility not just for our political members but indeed engagement by the ordinary people of Ireland in the political system, which is is just as important, if not more so. We have here the mix that makes the Irish political system at local government level work.

I want to emphasise that it does work. That should be the starting point in terms of people maybe having a negative assessment that things do not work. Having been a councillor for 16 years at local government level, at both town and county, and looking back on that period since I was first elected in 1999, I know things do work and indeed they work even better now in terms of the scope and sphere of influence of local government on everybody's lives. Most important is that it is working in the right way and the people it is ultimately working for. It will be extremely interesting today to hear the perspectives of everybody here. We have heard from our local government members and from members in the Northern Ireland system, who were critical of our system here and the amount of centralised power. On the last occasion, we heard from Ministers on local government and from spokespersons for the various parties.

One of the most recent and valuable contributions has been from our own Library and Research Service team, who have done an extensive body of work examining the transfer of powers over the last 30 years from local government to central government. For those of us who are day-to-day political practitioners, it is a really interesting document and worth reading, not just on what has been transferred but why. That is a very interesting question. On some occasions there has been a failure of members themselves to adopt various strategies while on others it is that grasp of central government taking from it. The discussions have been very interesting. It is important to make sure the system serves the people. As somebody who started off working at town council level, which is very local, I know the importance of delivery of local government at a granular level. We live on a geographically small island. We want to achieve large infrastructure projects but they cannot always be achieved at local level and have to go to central government. It is a question of balancing the two. I am looking forward to hearing everyone's contributions today.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The former CEO of Kerry County Council is here. That is in no way a home-town decision on my part. I welcome Ms Moira Murrell, chairperson of the CCMA.

Ms Moira Murrell:

For the last three weeks I have been chief executive of Cork County Council. I am here today in my capacity as chairperson of the CCMA. Mr. Kevin Kelly is the chief executive of Mayo County Council and chairs one of our committees. The CCMA is a non-statutory body, a voluntary group established to be a representative voice of the local government management network. We welcome the opportunity to be here today.

Over the last decade the role of local government has fundamentally changed across its roles, responsibilities and priorities. The Local Government Reform Act 2014 introduced a number of critical structures which have strengthened the policy-making role of local government and strengthened its democratic leadership role, in our view. The municipal district structures, which provide for political representation across the full geographical areas of the local authority, the strategic policy committee, SPC, structures and the local community development committee, LCDC, structures provide critical fora for policy consideration and development. Each of these structures together with the corporate policy group, CPG, of the council are important subcommittees of the full council. It is noted that a recent review of the SPC structure by the Institute of Public Administration notes their value from a democratic governance perspective and makes suggestions for reform to increase their effectiveness. It is considered that this is a mechanism for elected members to have meaningful input into policy considerations from the earliest possible point in the process.

The traditional services provided by local authorities, including housing, roads, planning, fire service, libraries, amenities and so on, are well understood. While councils continue to provide these services, the role, responsibilities and nature of local government have changed significantly over the last decade. The economic and community leadership role of local government has strengthened over this time. This has been achieved through not only the county development plan process, but also the development of the local economic and community plans which underpin so many of our local priorities across a range of areas and functions provided by various agencies, bringing greater co-ordination and strategic outlook in policy development and delivery.

Over recent years the leadership role of local government has expanded due to its ability to bring various agencies and bodies together to focus on integration of responses to emergency situations. A good example of how this works on the ground is the local authority’s role in co-ordinating responses to severe weather events at a local level. Local authorities' contributions to the Government’s national priorities and programmes have been demonstrated strongly through the pandemic response and integration fora arising from the Ukraine war and displacement of populations.

The national housing priority has seen a central role for local government in the delivery of social and, increasingly, affordable housing. The alignment of county development plans in providing adequate zoning for development and identifying infrastructural gaps and priority investment areas is now more critical in setting local priorities. The priority to deliver town centre regeneration and rural regeneration programmes and the availability of very significant national funds, for example, the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF and rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, has provided a significant opportunity for local government to plan in a more integrated way for area-based development at county and municipal level and give effect to local investment priorities.

The alignment of the local enterprise function to the overall local government role has strengthened the local government approach to leading and co-ordinating on economic development and enterprise in local authority areas. Local authorities continue to provide strong examples of leadership and collaboration in the areas of tourism, development and community engagement across their areas. The role and responsibilities entrusted to local authorities in the development and adoption of the county climate action plans is a significant and developing role for local government, specifically in the area of climate adaptation and mitigation.

Apart from working with our parent Department, local government also collaborates by acting as the delivery partner with more than 30 Departments and State agencies. Some examples include: working with the Department of tourism to roll out a number of initiatives in local authority areas, including the Creative Ireland programme and the creation of the local culture and creativity teams, local sports plans and night-time economy initiatives; working with the Department of Rural and Community Development on local community development committees, public participation networks, PPNs, local economic and community plans, rural development schemes, the LEADER programme, outdoor recreation, community grant schemes, broadband and library implementation; and working with the Department of children on Comhairle na nÓg and community integration forums. There is ongoing engagement with the Department of Justice regarding the new community safety partnerships, the Healthy Ireland local government programme is delivered on behalf of the Department of Health and we partner with the Arts Council, the Heritage Council and our parent Department to roll out a number of arts, heritage and biodiversity officers. In addition, we have involvement in the social inclusion area and we have taken the lead in investing in the age-friendly shared service, which adopts a multiagency approach to age-related planning and service provision. That is just to give some examples of the range involved.

While this evolving role of local government presents a significant opportunity for local government into the future, it is in this context that local authorities have required significant changes in structures, approaches and expertise requirements. At present, as I mentioned, local government engages with 30 funding agencies and Departments and, in many cases, the co-ordination of schemes – there are approximately 500 different grant schemes - and opportunities to give effect to best delivery. These funds can have significant and varied cofunding, administration, reporting and resourcing requirements.

The sustainable financing and funding of local government into the future is a key consideration. It is important that the ambitions of the county development plans, metropolitan plans and local economic and community plans are founded on longer-term financial planning by councils. By way of example, the scale of the urban and rural regeneration programmes and aligned schemes is potentially transformative for many areas, and local authority cofunding is essential to delivery. In many cases, this presents a significant longer-term financial commitment. Additionally, some critical financial requirements by local government across a range of areas have emerged in recent times, for example, transitioning organisations to meet the Climate 2030 targets, housing stock maintenance and vacancy management, cybersecurity and resilience, road network maintenance and the needs of adverse weather and climate as they impact on the local area.

The scale of operations across local government requires that the principles of sound and good governance are bedded in local authorities. The local governance framework is an important composite guidance for local authorities, with one of its central principles outlining the importance of co-operation between the elected council and the executive and referencing strong oversight and performance evaluation through the internal and external structures of local government. In conclusion, the CCMA is committed to the delivery of local government and local policy in a spirit of public service and commitment to the public good.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. Again, congratulations on your elevation in regard to our nearest neighbours. I am sure the victory on Sunday has added to the mood in County Hall. It is the first time ever that Kerry people were actually shouting for Cork, and that takes a lot. I also welcome the chief executive of Mayo County Council, Mr. Kevin Kelly. I understand it was a joint contribution.

I call Mr. Brian Sheehan and Ms Aimée Keane from Women for Election.

Mr. Brian Sheehan:

I thank the Chair and Senators for the opportunity to attend the Seanad Public Consultation Committee today. As we have sent a long statement, I will not spend too long on it. Women for Election ran for ten years and was formed to redress the gender imbalance in politics at all levels in Ireland. We work with political parties, councillors, women from all parties and none and are supported by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We work with other organisations such as See Her Elected, SHE, the National Women's Council and the Immigrant Council of Ireland to support the diversity of women in urban and rural Ireland to be elected.

In brief, Ireland ranks 103rd in the world with regard to the number of women in national politics. We rank 22nd out of 27 in the number of women in local politics in the EU. The recent local elections did not alter the number of women councillors elected. Before and after the election, 247 women make up just 26% of the councillors, despite a record number of women running. Access to politics, power and the decision-making tables in local government that impact all of our lives is over-represented by men. More women at those decision-making tables would make politics work better for everyone. More women in decision-making roles brings diverse perspectives that enrich policy and law-making and properly reflects the society being served. More women means women's lived experiences included in decisions. Our local and national government would be stronger with better representation of all the people it serves and a balance of men and women.

There are a range of barriers to women entering politics. These have been identified as the five Cs - cash, care, confidence, candidates and election and political culture - to which a sixth can be added - cyber. Those barriers have been explored in a whole range of reports which have been listed. There have been improvements in recent years, in particular, on maternity leave for councillors, hybrid meetings and the significant investment by the Government in supporting the work of political parties and organisations such as ourselves in this area, which is not to be underestimated. Despite the recognised barriers to women entering politics, it is clear that more and more women want to run. They bring their experience, expertise and skills from a wide range of areas. The decisions of our local and national governments would be better, more equitable and more representative if women such as these are present.

There have been significant initiatives from Government, councils, political parties and NGOs. However, none of these has produced a material change in the outcomes. The recent local elections have resulted in a stagnation of the number of women elected. The future of our local democracy is at stake if the under-representation of women continues. Current measures to propel changes are not yielding results. If we do not want to spend a number of decades - up to 30 or 40 years at the current rate of change - waiting for the gender gap to change organically, we need a different method of accelerating change.

I will not go through the details of the local election results as there is a lot there, but it is worthwhile to say a record number of women, 631, ran, which is a 21% increase on the last elections, with no change in the number of women elected. Just three councils have 40% or more women, namely, South Dublin County Council, Louth County Council and Dublin City Council. Donegal County Council has just three women councillors out of 37, which is 8%. There are 13 councils with less than 20% women. There are also three councils now with women cathaoirligh and nine with women leas-chathaoirligh.

In terms of where we think local democracy can shift, there is a number of issues. One is the gender quota issue. Incumbency is a key issue. More than 80% of councillors run again and more than 80% of those are elected. In this election, just 267 seats, or 28%, were available for new candidates, of which women won 82. That is a 17% return for the number of women running who were not councillors beforehand - 82 out of 478 women. There is a very poor return for women running. We have to get women running in winnable seats. Political parties had significant numbers of women running, but again, the numbers did not necessarily reflect an overall change in women running. I have provided a chart.

Fine Gael has the highest number of elected women before and after the election. Sinn Féin had the highest number of women candidates. The challenge is that without quotas, the change in the number of women elected will depend on the political tide being either in or out for parties that have a large proportion of women candidates. In that context, the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality have recommended candidate gender quotas for the general election be extended to local elections.

It is really key that we explore that and put adequate supports in for political parties and councils to ensure that gender quota can have a sustained investment to bring forward women and place them in winnable seats over the next couple of years. I will hand over to my colleague.

Ms Aimee Kane:

As Mr. Sheehan outlined, there are still many barriers in place for women. A wide range of reports have made recommendations for family-friendly local government, such as A Toolkit for Local Authorities on Supporting Family-Friendly Local Government: Enabling and Supporting Women, Parents, and Carers in Local Government from the National Women's Council of Ireland. These recommendations include efficient and effective meetings, induction, training and development, citizen engagement and other measures, including supporting local and regional women's caucuses.

Another key issue would be safety, which I am sure members have all touched on. Democracy thrives on political debate and discourse and the exchange of diverse political views, but there is a point where disagreement crosses a line to behaviours that are not acceptable and should not be tolerated. The report of the task force on safe participation in public life contains some clear tangible recommendations. We welcome these recommendations, but they will need robust implementation resourcing and strengthening, as required in the new power of the Electoral Commission, Coimisiún na Meán and An Garda Síochána. We have seen an increase in abuse and harassment in the recent local elections, particularly targeted at women and minorities. We endorse the recommendations of the task force. The report also acknowledged abuse becoming increasingly normalised, particularly online, driven by misogyny, sexism, racism and intolerance.

The last thing to touch on would be candidates' addresses. Prospective women candidates have raised the issue of their home addresses being on the ballot paper. There should be a legislative change to allow for candidates to include as much of their home address as they consider safe to be on the ballot paper in the future.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on the AILG, I know from being in the Seanad where 40% of the representation is women compared to when I got first elected 17 years ago, that issues that are being brought up now would not have been brought up 17 years ago. It is very important that women are in the room because when they are in the room, they bring up topics that simply would not be addressed otherwise.

I now call Councillor Pat Fitzpatrick who is representing the AILG.

Mr. Pat Fitzpatrick:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the members of the committee. First, I apologise on behalf of our president, Ms Gail Dunne, who is unavoidably absent today. I wish members a good morning. I will commence by thanking the Cathaoirleach and committee members for inviting the AILG delegation here to present to the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the future of local government. As members are aware, my name is Councillor Pat Fitzpatrick. I am a past president of the AILG. I am joined this morning by executive member, Councillor Paraic Brady. I am also joined by our AILG directors, Mr. Tommy Moylan and Mr. Liam Kenny and our public relations officer, Ms Elaine Lynch.

We are delighted to have an opportunity to meet with the committee again this morning to contribute to its work on this important topic. We previously submitted a detailed and substantial submission on the future of local democracy and our local government system to the committee. Our submission covered all the areas listed in the committee’s terms of reference in undertaking its important work. I hope it will contribute to the committee's work, findings and final recommendations. We have followed the various public sessions of the committee and acknowledge the many contributions from the various parties who have our local democracy and our local government system at heart.

The AILG presented to the committee in November of last year when we highlighted our concerns about the future of the local democracy system of local government. We highlight the centralised nature of our local government system, the dominance of central government over local government at national level, the dominance of the executive over the elected council at local level, the continued dilution of powers of the elected council, our limited revenue raising powers and the challenges facing our councillors in terms of abuse and harassment. All these issues were highlighted in the Council of Europe's monitoring report last year and I do not think we need to rehash them here this morning. We are all well aware of the problems with our local government system and the pressure that our local democracy is under, so it is now time for us all to work together collectively and be proactive to find solutions.

It is fair to say that I think we have commenced this process to find solutions, and the AILG has been to the forefront in this. In January of this year, we launched the findings of our AILG-Maynooth University independent research report entitled The 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government. The report was a collaborative endeavour between the AILG and Maynooth University to understand the challenging and changing dynamic landscape of local government in Ireland.

The report delved into the heart of what it means to be a local councillor in Ireland today. As evidenced by the considerable volume of primary data generated by our members regarding their experiences, the process ensured the voice of councillors was to the fore throughout the project. That was very important to us. The report highlighted how our members viewed their role as local councillors, the challenges they face, the support they require as we go forward, particularly in the areas of capacity building and upskilling, with a clear appetite for continuous professional training and development, and other ways in which we can be supported in exercising our roles. A further aim of the research report, and an important recommendation, is the need for public awareness and promotional campaigns on the work of councillors and local authorities. The research and report will greatly help the AILG in shaping and guiding our service delivery to our members and responding to their ever-changing needs. Our report has been central to the good conversation that is currently happening regarding local government and local democracy now and in terms of what the future holds.

Following on from the Moorhead report, which led to significant improvements to our members' pay and conditions, we have seen the introduction of maternity leave for female councillors, the first of its kind, along with the option to appoint a temporary substitute for councillors who take maternity leave or a temporary leave of absence. There is significant ongoing work to encourage greater participation in local government, particularly by women and minority groups. I referenced the Council of Europe report. That report was rightly critical of aspects of our local government system and our non-compliance with some principles of the European Charter of Local Self-Government. However, it also recognised our strong local democracy and the valuable services, numbering more than 1,100, that our local authorities deliver to the public.

To add to these developments, we have the work of this committee on the future of local democracy, the election of the first directly elected Mayor of Limerick on 7 June, the report of the citizens' assembly on a directly elected mayor for Dublin and, of course, 949 newly elected councillors following the local elections in June. This is creating a really positive conversation regarding local government. Collectively, we all must build on this and come forward with a new vision for local government to protect our local democracy into the future. The AILG has commenced work on our future vision for local government. We published our local election manifesto in May in advance of the local elections. It is our intention to develop this into a wider vision for the future of local democratic government and to secure change as we head into national elections and a new programme for government in the next number of months.

I thank members for allowing us to make a presentation this morning.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a question and answer session after the statements. Witnesses will be able to engage with the committee members. As this is a select committee, not all 60 Members of the Seanad are members. However, our report will be adopted by the Seanad as a whole.

The next witness, representing LAMA, is its general secretary, Councillor John Sheahan.

Mr. John Sheahan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to participate in this recap of where we are at in regard to the public consultation on the future of local democracy. We made a contribution to the committee last November. Today, I am joined by the following LAMA colleagues: Councillor Micheál Anglim, chairperson; Councillor Terry Shannon, vice chairperson; Councillor Damien Ryan, public relations officer; Councillor Joe Malone, Oireachtas liaison officer; and Councillor Brian Lawlor, public relations officer. I see a few familiar faces today, whom we had not seen previously, from around the mid-west. That is good.

I begin by recapping what LAMA does.

LAMA represents over 800 paid members with an executive body of 31 members, one from each local authority. We have an officer board that looks after the day-to-day running of the body. We are the representative body for the councillors and run by the councillors. LAMA is an apolitical representative body which represents all parties and none in the pursuit of better work conditions, work-life balance, remuneration, well-being and the welfare of our members.

In previous presentations, several contributors outlined the changes in local government since its inception 125 years ago are clear and probably not for the better in the main as the principle of subsidiarity is eroded year on year. Reading through the threads of contributions, it is clear the issues are predominantly the same. We have the most centralised government in Europe with councillors' powers very much diminished. Much blame for that lies at the feet of the permanent government, the Civil Service, which sees Ministers come and go from election to election and control the strings that keeps the power not only in the Oireachtas but in their own Departments. This will not change while the will of the Oireachtas Member is to be the bearer of good news locally.

I noted in earlier contributions a former Minister for local government told this committee that while in office, he asked councillors what powers they would like to take back and I think he is still waiting for an answer. That point has some validity too because councillors can be their own worst enemies for happily letting an executive of a council take the unsavoury decisions.

The lack of a third tier of governance in Ireland came across. A meaningful, thought-out tier of regional government is required in Ireland. At present, it is set up generally as a mechanism to satisfy the funding streams in Europe and has little or no power. It has been noted that even the constituencies of our elected members to the European Parliament are not aligned with our regional assemblies, which is something that should be examined.

Interference with planning at local level was a common thread through previous contributions, as well as the introduction of the SHDs, the OPR – I could be here until doomsday talking about that – and the removal of councillors' powers through section 179A which is a very recent measure, where the chief executive can sign off on a Part 8 planning application. Part 8 planning is where the chief executive is looking for planning for him or herself, in a sense, meaning the council. He or she can sign off on that without councillors consent. This was brought in as a temporary measure with a sunset clause to get us through the housing crisis. I believe it has now been extended in the new planning Bill into 2025.

There must be proper remuneration for councillors, which should include a pension now that auto-enrolment has been introduced in Ireland. Much has been done on pay, aligning councillors to a public service grade. That should automatically allow the likes of LAMA, the representative body, to take a seat at some table in future negotiations regarding councillors' pay and conditions. The questioning of State bodies and Oireachtas Members are now non-events. Even the joint policing committees are heading in that direction. The abolition of the dual mandate has facilitated all this. Independent advice for councillors is independent in name only. This needs a complete overhaul, not only for planning but for all aspects of councillors' work, such is the volume of plans that we must peruse and pass. Legal advice is the same. We are entitled to a second legal opinion but it is the same person asking for the second opinion as the person who asked for the first, namely, the chief executive. As for qualified privilege for councillors, we have to ask ourselves what that actually means. Councillors are moving into the digital era and people are requesting livestreaming of meetings without seeking to first put in place safeguards to protect them in digitally live situations. Transparency at council meetings is very important for people to take interest in politics but the protection of the councillor is equally important. We are facing a new revolution, bigger than the industrial revolution, with technology developments such as the likes of AI and so on. This is here and it will impact on how we do business and how both national and local government operate. We must adapt.

We also wish to raise the issue of toxicity in politics.

It has developed around the world and it is growing and now on our doorstep. Councillors have had an average three- to four-month campaign, door to door, on social media, etc. Some councillors, for a myriad of reasons, were abused whether it be due to their background, nationality, race or gender. Whatever they faced, they sometimes faced it personally, alone, and most often without the proper protection of the State. This needs to be addressed as it is discouraging people from putting their names forward and they will never enjoy the humbling privilege we have all had of having an elected mandate from our peers to serve our people.

These are some of the threads we picked up on from the deliberations for this committee to date. We are happy to work with the committee further and give any clarifications requested. When we last appeared before this committee, we stated that the timing was not great as it straddled two council terms, If one was a good reader of the tea leaves at the moment and if we have this packaged and done by autumn 2024, we could be straddling two terms of Government. I thank the Chairman.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Councillor Sheahan for his crystal ball gazing. The committee's intention is to have the report ready for the political parties and for all those who made contributions in advance of any tea leaves reading he might be doing. The most important part being that it would be included in programmes for Government and prior to that part of election manifestoes for political parties and groupings.

I will call Dr. Bríd Quinn and Dr. Mark Callanan who are the current and previous members of the Council of Europe's Congress of Local and Regional Authorities, CLRA, group of independent experts on the European charter of local self-government. I call Dr Quinn first and she is most welcome.

Dr. Bríd Quinn:

A Chathaoirligh, a Sheanadóirí agus a chomhpháirtithe, is mór an onóir dom a bheith anseo inniu. Tréaslaím leis an gcoiste as an obair iontach atá á déanamh aige chun iniúchadh a dhéanamh agus bonn a chur faoin daonlathas áitiúil.

I thank the Chairperson, Senators and co-presenters for the opportunity to speak today and contribute to this important work. I congratulate the committee on its championing of local democracy and efforts to assure its future. Before focusing on the future of local democracy, like other contributors it is worth reflecting on the past and present situation regarding local government and local democracy in Ireland. We have had so many documents, declarations and reports on local government from the White Paper in 1971, the Barrington report of 1991, all the documents that led to the reforms of 2014 and so on. All of them have recognised the problems and issues that exist with regard to local government and local democracy. The shortcomings and issues have been documented and debated but there has been a continual problem with implementation.

I will read a quote and one might wonder if it is a quote from a submission to this committee:

... a sort of inverse relationship [exists] between the volume of discussion about reform and the extent of the action resulting from this... it looked as if decisions and real action were about to be taken this proved to be an illusion and a further period of stagnation ensued.

That is not a quote from 2024; that was the Minister of State for the environment with responsibility for local government in 1991, a certain Mr. Flynn from Mayo. Almost a quarter of a century later, that assessment is valid.

However, I am cognisant that many reforms have been put in place and have improved structures, relationships and so on. It is evident from other contributions this morning that the landscape of local government and local democracy is still beset by problems regarding the role and remit of local government and its form, functioning and finance. We have highlighted the centralised nature of Ireland's governance system, the diminution of the role of local authorities, the unrealistic demands, imperfect conditions and often negative public perception of councillors' roles. Furthermore, research by the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, Fórsa, the National Women's Council and academics finds concerns expressed by politicians and researchers about falling turnout, gender parity, ethnic representation and so on.

There is a consensus in all of this that strengthening local democracy is the only way forward.

That brings me on to the comprehensive review of our system of local government carried out by the Council of Europe last year. It said Ireland's local government has a more limited set of functions, represents a smaller share of public affairs and can only marginally influence the size of its resources. Moreover, and we are here in Leinster House today, it referred to the enduring tendency of central government to mistrust and oversee local government. On a positive note, the report also recognised that there is a genuine ambition at the top level of government to reform the system of local government, and today's meeting is an indication of that commitment.

I will skip over the parts I have prepared about the changing context, given we are all aware of that.

In looking to the future, I have a few suggestions relating to the form, functioning and financing. I suggest we implement the recommendations made in the Council of Europe report, which sets an agenda for reform. We should start where we are, perhaps strengthening the role of the municipal districts, which, observed both on the ground and academically, seem to be making a positive impact. As Councillor Sheahan said, we need to address the regional conundrum. We have a patchwork of regional public bodies with unco-ordinated administrative geographies, some with overlapping roles, and we need to address this. Furthermore, the structural links from regional assemblies to national level are ad hocand weak. We need to expand the concept of delivery boards, such as the one that is being introduced in Limerick, and maybe put in place mandatory consultative forums to facilitate engagement between national and local government.

Moving on to functions, we need to expand the functions carried out at local government. I was involved in the Dublin Citizens' Assembly, which came through with a list of 21 functions and powers that could and should be within the remit of local government. We need to involve our citizens more, for which there are so many examples from all over the world, such as the UK and its property technology scheme, Helsinki with cyclists and identifying roads that need repair, and others involved in participatory budgeting, some of which we have here. We need to avail of the opportunities provided by technology to enhance local democracy. Again, I cannot go into detail on those.

Of course, overall, unless local government is adequately and consistently financed, its underpinning of local democracy will be impeded because of the inability to provide service and respond to local needs, local visions and local ideas.

We are in Dublin, where Sean O'Casey's Joxer said the world was in “a state of chassis". Politically and democratically, it is, in France, the US, Ukraine and so on. Effective local democracy is a prerequisite for good governance, and good governance enables social and economic development and fosters democratic values. As we say as Gaeilge, “Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine”, and local democracy is so important to achieving that work together.

As the Cathaoirleach said at the beginning, I sit on the group of independent experts with the CLRA and the Council of Europe. I worked for many years in the University of Limerick and since my retirement, I have been doing voluntary and consultancy work on local government. I again say “Comhghairdeachas”. I am delighted the committee is working on this and wish it every success. If I can contribute to its work, I will be delighted to do so.

Dr. Mark Callanan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Members of Seanad Éireann for the kind invitation to attend today's public hearing on the future of local democracy. I am here as a former member, between 2011 and 2018, of the Council of Europe's group of independent experts on local self-government. To be clear, I am speaking in a personal capacity and not on behalf of my employer or any other organisation.

I have been interested to follow the debate thus far, both today and listening back to previous sessions. From my perspective, we look back at decades of multiple programmes for Government, White Papers, Green Papers and action programmes published by governments composed of different political parties. When we reflect on local government reform initiatives in other parts of Europe and further afield, several enduring themes regularly arise in debates over local government reform. Primary among these is getting the right structures, including debates over reconfiguration of boundaries in local government. In the Irish context, this happened most recently in 2014 with the establishment of municipal districts, the merger of some local authorities and the reconfiguration of regional structures.

Second, we have mentioned the powers of local government, particularly the portfolio of services delivered through the local government system, and related debates over devolution of powers. Third is the relationship between national and local government, and how local authorities are involved in national decisions that will affect their operations, including new legislation. As Dr. Quinn has mentioned, we are appropriately in Leinster House to touch on that.

Fourth, is the internal decision-making arrangements within local government and the balance of powers between elected officeholders and appointed officials. That is a debate everywhere. Fifth is the financing of government and especially possible changes to sources of revenue. I will add a new one, based on the Seanad's own debates, and which has arguably become more pressing in recent decades. That is the status of elected representatives supporting councillors in their roles and the more generally hostile environment that elected representatives at all levels encounter in modern democracies.

Looking at the official record it seems many of these themes have been reflected in the discussions. I will therefore reserve my opening remarks to a key theme which I consider to be central, namely, the devolution of powers and functions of local government. As has been mentioned in previous meetings, comparison with other jurisdictions illustrates that, compared with Ireland, many public services delivered at local level in Europe and North America through the local government system are not delivered through local government here. This point was also made in the Council of Europe's 2023 monitoring report, which argued that Ireland is in breach of Articles 3.1 and 4.3 of the European charter. These state that local authorities should be responsible for a substantial share of public affairs and that public responsibilities shall generally be exercised by those authorities closest to the citizen. The monitoring report conceded that new powers had been devolved to local government in areas like economic development and climate change.

Since the 1990s, there has also been a recurring emphasis on local government playing a co-ordinating role in the provision of public services locally. International research suggests that while that co-ordination role can be important, to fulfil it local government must have substantive functional responsibilities. As this forum has already noted, other powers previously exercised by local government in Ireland have also been taken and transferred to national bodies. None of this is to downplay the fantastic work local authorities do across a range of often undervalued services every day, through social housing and housing supports, spatial planning, urban renewal, road maintenance, recycling centres, public libraries, the fire service, Civil Defence, parks, playgrounds and the arts and through support to hundreds of local festivals every year. That is a long list, and I am leaving out a lot. This is to make the point that the record suggests more could be done at local level.

The unfortunate tone of the most recent reform initiative, Putting People First, in 2012 and earlier documents like the Green Paper on local government in 2008, was that there was a need to improve the level of confidence in the local government system, so it could take on wider functions. These documents suggested that local government needed to show it could embrace the challenge of taking on new tasks. It has now been a decade since these documents were published, and local government has shown it can step up, taking on new challenges in areas like climate action, economic development and enterprise support, leading the co-ordination of supports to vulnerable groups during the Covid-19 pandemic and leading in the provision of supports following the invasion of Ukraine. Local government can therefore point to a record of success in delivering on these new challenges over the past decade. It is perhaps time to be positive and use these examples as a basis to revisit the argument and show local government has repositioned itself and has the capacity to take on a wider role.

On the more positive side, the Council of Europe's monitoring report commented that local authorities have a strong connection with their citizens.

It added that they use a variety of means of local participation and, for those services they currently provide, do so to a high standard. Nonetheless, the report also suggests as part of its recommendations that additional functions be transferred to local authorities, that the principle of subsidiarity should be properly reflected and protected in primary legislation and that more formal and regular mechanisms to consult local government in advance of taking national decisions and adopting legislation be developed.

I thank the Cathaoirleach again for the opportunity to speak again today. I look forward to the rest of the discussion and the results emerging from this forum.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will hear from all the witnesses first and then interact through questions and answers so as to give us time for all we want to do. The running order is alphabetical based on political parties, and that is why Fianna Fáil is going first, starting with Mr. Seán Dorgan.

One of the issues that has come up here is that of qualified privilege, which means that those speaking in a chamber have some element of protection. One of the witnesses who appeared before us talked about having been told by a director of services that if an elected member went against the advice of the director of services, that elected member could be sued personally. Unfortunately, elected members do not have any recourse to independent legal advice in the pure sense of the word, so there is merit to the idea of the CCMA, AILG and LAMA getting the resources to allow for independent financial, planning and legal advice for members facing a pushback regarding decisions made. Members are not qualified barristers, planners or engineers and therefore need support in this day and age.

Another issue that continually comes up concerns town councils, regional assemblies and municipal districts. There is a debate on town councils but the idea was raised that municipal districts would elect municipal district members only. Therefore, if there were a ballot with six elected to the county council, the next three on the ballot paper would relate to municipal districts. This idea has been circulated because we have the lowest proportion of public representatives in Europe. We need more on the ground because, although the workload has increased, the resources have not. These are some of the ideas that have been raised at hearings of this committee. There are arguments for and against in respect of town councils, but these are some of the thoughts we have heard.

The general secretaries are most welcome. I call on former Senator, Seán Dorgan.

Mr. Seán Dorgan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senators. It is a great privilege to be here this morning to address the committee. I thank it for the invitation to participate in these hearings. I commend it on it is very important work. It is timely and important that it is reviewing local government in Ireland, and we look forward to its final report and recommendations.

It is important that we acknowledge how the work of councillors has evolved very significantly over the past decade and a half. We in Fianna Fáil believe a strong local democracy is vital for our country. We will continue to support the further evolution of the roles of councillors and local authorities. We believe in the critical importance of councillors to and in our democratic system.

As members will be aware, a series of measures have been put in place that have been vital for local democracy over the years. Ensuring fixed electoral terms, including local government in the Constitution, and significant improvements to councillor terms and conditions and pay were, we believe, essential reforms, meaning this has been one of the most active and professional periods in the history of local democracy in Ireland.

We believe the abolition of town councils was a mistake. As we have set out in various manifestoes, including during our most recent local election campaign, we believe town councils should be restored. Ireland has relatively few elected local bodies in the European context. In many countries, every village, town and city district has its own elected council as part of a pyramid approach to national, regional and local government. We would not go that far, but significant towns need an accountable democratic forum to lead local improvements and development and ensure more voices from our communities across the country are heard.

Regarding public participation in local government, we should acknowledge that our councillors have a long tradition of being highly connected and in touch with the communities they represent. We see this in our party, Fianna Fáil, across our 248 councillors. As is common with councillors of all parties or none, our councillors are true community champions up and down the country. Significant progress has been made since Covid in how councils do their business. We need to encourage local government to continue to integrate more family-friendly procedures. We need to lower as many practical barriers to entry and participation as possible and encourage and facilitate councils on this journey. For example, as some speakers have mentioned, the recently introduced maternity leave cover is long overdue and very welcome.

Regarding gender balance, as the committee will be aware, Ireland has one major difference from other countries in that we have neither party lists or single seat constituencies. These are the primary mechanisms used elsewhere to achieve particular outcomes. The approach that applies to Dáil elections ensure that parties achieve a balance in candidates through the use of the funding system. There is no such mechanism available for local government. The strength of our democratic system is that literally anyone can stand for election. National parties are not, and have never been, solely in charge of who people can vote for. However, as Mr. Sheehan mentioned, just because it is complex does not mean we should not look at and try to improve it. Frankly, we need more women in politics and local government and running for election. We all have more work to do in that regard. That is something that is and continues to be a key priority for us in Fianna Fáil.

We welcome the fact that the Cathaoirleach identified the issue of abuse and threats facing candidates, especially female and minority candidates, standing in election. All speakers have referenced that in their contributions. This is something that has become a real issue and is a deterrent to many potential candidates seeking election. I find, and I am sure it is similar in other parties, that an increasing number of candidates ask to discuss how they should handle abuse. We in Fianna Fáil have worked to introduce specific training and individual supports, along with putting in place a confidential support service for all candidates and public representatives. We will continue to do more.

I commend Women for Election on the most recent local elections in terms of its assistance regarding this issue. Frankly, this behaviour needs to be called out and the personal abuse, which is often anonymous and, equally, relentless and frequently online, has to be tackled. We should thank the people who put themselves forward for election and not tolerate those who proclaim themselves to be the real voices of the people but end up distorting debate and undermining real democratic engagement in our communities. Systematic work needs to be undertaken to document and address the abuse and increasing intimidation directed against democratic candidates of all parties and independents.

In my experience, An Garda Síochána has been very proactive and supportive in dealing with such matters. Frankly, social media companies need to do more to stamp out this type of behaviour. However, it is a serious matter for all of us, political parties, social media companies, representative bodies, the Electoral Commission and Government. We need to work together over the next while to see how we might generate solutions to deal with this issue. If it is allowed to fester and continue, democracy, national and local, will suffer.

This said, it is important to say again that the relationship between candidates and representatives and their local communities is a strength of our system. What we need most of all now is respect for the goodwill, hard work and honesty of the overwhelming majority of people who stand for election.

Mr. John Carroll:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the committee and the invitation to attend. The invitation to today's committee hearing was made in the context of my being the Fine Gael general secretary. My role relates to the administration of the party, with policy being a function specifically reserved for the parliamentary party, subject to the overall authority of an Ard-Fheis.

Within that context, I am conscious that, directly and indirectly, a number of Fine Gael public representatives have contributed to the policy debate on this topic, either here today through membership of the committee or previously through the committee’s work already. I defer to those contributions.

My role in Fine Gael headquarters as pertains to local government is twofold: first and most obviously, with regard to the selection of candidates for local elections and the conduct of those campaigns and, second, in support of our elected councillors. The importance of local democracy to our party organisationally is evident from the huge efforts made by the party at member, branch, district, constituency and national level in support of our local election candidates. The local elections are a massive effort for our party and all involved within it. In the most recent local elections, 338 candidates were nominated by Fine Gael to contest those elections, with 245 of those candidates being successfully elected. Of those 245 elected councillors, 184 were outgoing councillors and 58 of those elected were first-time candidates.

Every person who puts themselves forward for election to local government plays a vital role in the strength of our democracy and the encouragement and facilitation of such is very important. We can talk all we want about the structures of local government but it is the calibre of the people and the people coming into local government that is a crucial mechanic within all that. Political parties are consistently the most effective method of facilitating such participation and facilitating it successfully. I think all the research done by academics on this acknowledges that.

As an organisation rooted in community with branches in more than 800 locations across Ireland, the vast majority of our candidates emerge within the organisation and are selected by them either as members themselves or as people with strong community backgrounds who are identified and encouraged by our members to run. Those candidates are supported from head office, primarily in training, briefing, design and other similar services, while the local organisation provides the logistical and financial support in most instances. Councillors, once elected, enjoy a high level of autonomy within their local authority groups within Fine Gael. As a party we believe in putting forward strong, credible candidates to the public for election and then trusting their judgment within their council group when elected.

Looking to the future of local democracy, the role of political parties is crucial. The quality and calibre of the candidates coming forward and their rooting in community is essential. Political parties rooted within their communities are key in facilitating that. At a surface level, it appears that across local authorities where there are strong and cohesive local authority political groups, those local authorities are able to act decisively and effectively, while it is also evident that those local authorities with a high degree of political fragmentation and a high number of Independents are not as effective and are more likely to stop-start initiatives.

The issue of independent advice and support has been raised repeatedly within this hearing today and more generally. In considering that question, it is important to look at the way political parties are funded within this country. Political party funding within Ireland is based on the Dáil elections and our funding is within that context. If we are looking at independent advice and a provision of it, political parties may have a role to play but that would require some structural reform.

More generally, when considering the future of local democracy, it is important this committee gives thought to the role of political parties generally and supports the facilitation of same.

Ms Maura McMahon:

I am here representing the Green Party-Comhaontas Glas. We had 129 representatives in the last local election and we were fortunate that half of them were women. I thank the committee for the invitation, Distinguished members and guests-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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My hearing is not great. I ask Ms McMahon to move a bit closer to the microphone.

Ms Maura McMahon:

Sure, sorry. My voice is very low too. Sorry. I am tired from all the elections, to be honest. Does the Cathaoirleach want me to restart or will I continue on?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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You are grand. You can continue.

Ms Maura McMahon:

I am here representing the Green Party-Comhaontas Glas. We had 129 candidates at the last local elections and were fortunate that half of them were women.

I wish to speak to the committee a little bit about our vision for local government - some of the challenges we see and some of the solutions the Green Party would put forward.

The Green Party wants local government to become truly representative of the will of people living locally and councillors to be able to deliver on that mandate.

We want empowered local communities that can hold their councillors and mayors to account and that feel that their voice is heard by the council.

A recent example is the plan by Dublin City Council to install the two bus lanes where the majority of voters at council level are still trying to go through that decision-making process.

Some of the challenges we see and the general facts are that we have the weakest local government in the EU here in Ireland. The statistics are fairly stark. Ireland has fewer local politicians per capitathan all other EU member states. Compared with the UK and other small EU countries, Ireland has the lowest percentage of local government spending as a percentage of total public spending, at only 8.4%, as I think my colleague has alluded to. This compares with the EU average of 23% and 23.7% in the UK.

Within our own 8.4%, only 40% of this is raised by local authorities themselves. This means, as I think my colleague has alluded to, that they rely heavily on Government grants. In an analysis of 57 OECD, EU and Council of Europe countries, Ireland ranked third last on policy scope, that is, the extent to which local government is effectively involved in the delivery of services, and fifth last on effective political discretion, which is the extent to which municipalities have some influence and can decide on aspects of the different functions they have.

The solutions which the Green Party posit, based on the experience of our councillors, is that they feel unempowered, fear that people feel that their voices are not being heard and that local government cannot properly deliver the services it is supposed to deliver. The Green Party wants change in three areas: powers, accountability, and abuse. It wants strong local government with a higher share of resources being spent on councils and devolution of powers from national to local government with more decision-making autonomy.

One of our councillors who presented previously to this committee quoted a constituent as asking what is the point of councillors if they do not have the power to act on behalf of the constituent. Instead of us designing a system from top-down, we all agree that we need to bring it into line with what people expect their council to do. That means, primarily, a strengthening of councillors abilities to deal with the bread-and-butter issues that the council already handles such as planning, social housing, waste, and parks and local services, so that people feel that they can go to their local councillor with issues and can solve them.

Furthermore, the role should be increased and the role councils can play in delivering areas such as education, health, transport and safety should be enabled. What can be decided locally should be decided locally. We believe that Irish local government cannot become world-leading unless we engage with people through local citizens assemblies and participative budgeting so that people can set the priorities of the community, and that more beta projects which have worked, for example in Dublin city, can be introduced in order that people can suggest policy ideas for local problems.

We want a greater voice for younger people and local elections would be an ideal first place to extend that to 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds.

We advocate having full heritage teams in every council. Heritage and biodiversity officers, archaeologists, archivists and county architects should all be in-house. Particularly in light of today's Environmental Protection Agency report, most trends are heading in the right direction on emissions but local authorities must step up a gear and make bold decisions about space reallocation in towns and cities in reducing car dependency, safe routes to schools and public transport in the planning systems.

Another of our solutions is around accountability. With new powers should come more accountability and that should be for both councillors and council management. All local authority meeting should be livestreamed and votes recorded. People should know where their taxes and charges go and public consultation must be meaningful. People should be given reasons why the council came to a certain decision.

Our own Councillor Louise Heavin from Athlone outlined to the committee previously that where towns fall into two county council areas, as a practical example, people from one side of Westmeath make decisions which Athlone-based Roscommon county councillors would be much better placed to make.

The CEO should be accountable to the Minister for Housing, Local Government, and Heritage and there should be more accountability to the councillors. We applauded the directly elected mayor in Limerick and we hope that this will usher in a greater model of accountability and co-operation between elected and unelected officials.

The final solution we are suggesting relates to diversity and abuse which, I think, everybody has noted. It is a most significant problem which stops people from running or re-running with the scourge of abuse which politicians are now facing, particularly women and minorities. That is going across all party lines. Our own Green Party former Lord Mayor of Dublin, Hazel Chu, suffered unprecedented abuse in her term without the systemic supports which are now being recognised as essential.

We have been inspired by the recent election of the Green councillor, Mr. Honore Kamegni, who is now also the deputy Lord Mayor of Cork. He has also suffered from inexcusable abuse, particularly on social media, throughout his campaigns.

In conclusion, I thank the committee. Despite the limitations placed on councils, they have managed to deliver significant achievements in recent years, particularly in the front-line response to Covid-19, the integration of refugees in our communities, the excellent infrastructure for walking and in innovation. We applaud Mayor John Moran and we wish him the best. A directly elected mayor is an inspirational model, which should be extended to towns and cities with populations in excess of 30,000.

Ms Billie Sparks:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to it today on behalf of the Labour Party. I have submitted, alongside my opening remarks, a copy of our recently published policy paper, which is called Putting Power Back in Communities. The report contains the Labour Party's proposals on local government reform. As Members will be aware, the Labour Party predates the foundation of the State. It is proud to have been represented in local government in Ireland for more than 125 years. It would be fair to say our representatives have experienced many reforms and changes in that time.

An opportunity now exists to radically reform the structures of our local democracy by giving more powers and responsibility to local councils and also to expand the model of directly elected mayors and restore town councils. Due to Ireland's small size, in recent decades, we have seen increased centralisation of powers back to the Custom House from local councillors and a process we call "agencification" in which functions are concentrated into national bodies like SUSI or the HSE. The Planning and Development Bill 2023, which is currently going through the Oireachtas, will further strip powers from councillors, while a new national agency being set up, Childcare Ireland, will again change the local authority functions assigned to childcare committees.

It is our view that many decisions taken in Departments should be more rightly made locally and that the principle of subsidiarity must be embedded into all government thinking and policy decisions. The central question should always ask whether a decision can be made here or on a local council. Our paper goes into these issues in greater detail and, therefore, I will not repeat them or many of the points made by previous contributors. If the committee so wishes, our political director can engage with it further on the ideas outlined within it.

In summary, however, we have four priorities for local government reform. First, we support the introduction of more directly elected mayors starting with Dublin, Cork, Galway and Waterford by building on the Limerick model with increased devolved powers. Second, councillors must be given more control over the budget and finances of their councils, including the ability to raise their own discretionary revenue from sources such as hotel beds and vacant properties, something our Dublin councillors in particular wish to see granted. Third, we recognise the abolition of town councils in 2013 was a mistake and we would restore town councils for all defined urban areas with a population greater than 5,000 and with more than 1,000 dwellings, to strengthen local democracy. Deputy Brendan Howlin published a Bill on this in 2018 but it has been stalled on Committee Stage since then. Fourth, planning powers, which have been stripped away from local authorities, need to be returned and effective planning reform will be needed again by the next government. Other key changes we wish to see include more control for councillors over investment projects in areas such as housing, climate adaptation and transport with reduced bureaucracy in which the Custom House would no longer micromanage delivery of urgently needed homes and other infrastructure. We should trust our local councils and our council officials. We also believe councils should have stronger compulsory purchase powers to tackle vacancy and dereliction, while more general staff are needed in areas such as roads and housing maintenance.

As a party with a long record of service at local government, and with 56 councillors across 21 local authorities, I want to touch on a number of issues that need to be addressed. The imbalance of power between councillors and the executive needs to be changed to recognise the democratic mandate of councillors. On too many councils, the elected representatives can be treated as a nuisance. They should have automatic access to managers and staff in their roles as representatives of the people. Councillors should also be provided with more training and supports. A chief executive should have to consult more with councillors when making decisions. Councillors should have access to independent legal advice. Now is the time to examine how councils can provide staff supports to help councillors with their workloads. We all know the workload of councillors has greatly increased. More administrative resources need to be available to them. This could include a pooled clerical service for managing representatives as well as specialists to support policy work, which has increased through the strategic policy committees. The level of detail now required for development plans, climate action plans, and annual budgets also highlights the need for additional resources.

Being a part-time councillor has become more and more difficult. We have seen excellent councillors step down instead of running again because they feel they do not have the time or the resources to do the job properly. As the general secretary of a political party, I can say that we expend significant resources to recruit candidates for local elections and strive to ensure they represent the diversity of our country. It is fair to say that this work has become more challenging of late. There has been much focus recently on the security concerns facing politicians and the abuse many have experienced. This focus is long overdue but, unfortunately, toxicity and abuse are not recent phenomena. The Labour Party is proud that in the recent local elections, 11 of its candidates were from a migrant background, of whom three were elected. However, many experienced significant racism and abuse, whether through having their posters targeted or enduring a constant barrage online.

For many years, the Labour Party has had an internal gender quota of 40% female candidates for local elections and in the recent elections we exceeded that. There has been significant discussion of gender quotas for local elections. We all know there is not the same link to party political funding that applies for Dáil elections. However, funding was provided by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to support increased participation of women and diverse candidates in the recent elections. This was invaluable to us in carrying out our work. One mechanism to increase the number of women candidates is perhaps that this funding could be tied to the number or percentage of candidates from a migrant background or women, who ran in the most recent elections.

In conclusion, for the Labour Party it is essential that our local councils reflect the make-up of the communities they represent and that councillors are resourced and have the powers to make the changes their communities need.

Mr. Shane O'Brien:

I welcome the opportunity to speak today and I extend apologies on behalf of our general secretary, Ken O'Connell, who cannot attend. I thank all members of the committee, including Senators Wall, Boyhan, Casey and Black and the rapporteur, Senator Cassells, for their ongoing work on the future of local democracy. As noted in the background to this consultation, we have seen councillors' powers reduce and shift towards central government and local authorities over the past three decades or more. This has happened in various ways, such as through the Local Government Reform Act 2014 and other overarching policy national policy documents and frameworks.

Protecting, enhancing and improving our democracy should not be viewed as a one-off event. As we have seen the world over, democracies can be fragile and their protection is a continuous process. Given the changes that have occurred in respect of local government in the State, I concur with the committee's assessment that it is now timely to conduct a public consultation on the future of the most important arm of government, namely, local government. I wish the committee well in the preparation and publication of its report in a timely manner.

I want to speak on the issue of participation because it is a crucial part of local government. If there was no participation, a turnout of 0% on 7 June, we would have a bigger issue than the form, functions and funding of local government. Over the past two decades, we have seen a steady decline in voter turnout in local elections. In 2004, the turnout was just under 60%. It was down 2% to 58% in 2009. It was 52% in 2014, down to 50.2% in 2019 and 7 June 2024 saw the lowest ever turnout for local elections, with 49.4% of eligible people exercising their democratic right to vote. We cannot ignore this trend as it is a problem for the political process and our democracy as a whole. The fact that more than half of registered voters either stayed at home or were unable to participate, whether because of holidays, work or other commitments, says more about the system they are being asked to participate in than it does about individual voters or the calibre of candidates standing for election on 7 June.

Over the past 14 months, Sinn Féin has selected more than 500 candidates for local elections, North and South. While selecting candidates can be a fraught process, with obvious difficulties, any party that empowers local structures, creates pathways for new candidates and members and ensures appropriate mentorship and training can overcome these challenges. As a party, we thank LAMA, the AILG and those involved in organisations such as Women for Election for their ongoing mentorship, support and training for candidates of all political parties and none.

Sinn Féin recognises the key role that adequately resourced local government systems can play. It is the coalface of the political system and we need to empower local authorities to fulfil their respective roles and deliver services to their full potential.

A general theme not just at this hearing but across all of the work of the committee has been curtailment of powers. That means privatisation in some cases and outsourcing in others. Such issues are being discussed in this House today. The issue of the remunicipalisation of waste services by the Department of the environment is one such matter. That is a key function of many local government sectors across the EU. Many cities are reversing the trend of privatisation and taking key powers, such as the control of waste services, back under public control. That should form part of this committee's work when looking at what powers and services should exist and should be provided by local councils and authorities. If we were to continue to pursue the policies of recent years, which have cut the legs from councillors and officials, we would be sleepwalking into a democratic crisis. We must return and recommit to the principle of subsidiarity by devolving responsibility and autonomy and returning decision-making to the lowest and most local level possible.

When a decision is made about setting up new agencies, functions or services, we should first ask if our local government network can provide the service. Unfortunately, that has not been the case, as we have seen with a number of services being removed or new agencies being established to do the job that the local authority sector can deliver, given the wealth of knowledge and the ingrained nature of the networks the sector provides.

The negative impact of overarching legislation and national policy documents on the function of local authorities has been discussed in some ways and has been a theme in other hearings. However, there is a role for the rights and responsibilities aspect to it. The gentleman from LAMA asked that question and it is a question that is asked of many members elected to local authorities. What powers do they feel they need? Sometimes there is a lack of clarity in the response of councillors to that question, which shows the difficulty and the complex nature of deciding what those powers should be. We should not denigrate the CCMA or other local authority managers by saying that power should be taken from them for no good reason other than that they have too much power. We should be aiming to strengthen democracy and communities. Power should be given to the people's directly elected representatives. By doing so, we would create and build trust in the communities that these local authorities serve.

I will speak briefly about the positivity of the various proactive initiatives that are taking place on a cross-Border and all-island basis. There is, for example, a strategic partnership between Donegal County Council and Derry City and Strabane District Council. That needs to be replicated across the Border to bring real life and positive improvements to the midlands and the north-west region, in particular. This is the essence of reconciliation. It is a way to show people, regardless of their backgrounds, that local authorities and district councils can and should be working on their behalf.

While many challenges exist for local governments, the future can be bright if the tools are granted from a statutory and funding perspective to resource local government. Many of the threats that people have spoken of in respect of social media abuse and toxicity exist because there is a lack of trust and a lack of knowledge of the role and hard work that is being done across this State by local councillors. I commend all councillors and the members of the committee for their work in this regard.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will now turn to the members, who will ask questions of the group. If those who have contributed and those who have not would like to respond to questions as they are asked, I ask them to indicate and I will call them.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I sincerely thank all the witnesses for coming in. One of the things I have found valuable about this whole process has been the diversity of voices from which we have heard, including councillors; local government representative organisations, North and South; former Ministers of State with responsibility for local government; party leaders; Secretaries General; and all sorts of fantastic experts. A wealth of expertise and experience has been shared with us.

It has been a very enjoyable experience and I have learned so much. It will make for an excellent report, which it is to be hoped will stimulate a real reckoning with our overcentralised system and the deeply challenging and unfair conditions councillors contend with when they serve their communities. My hope is around the implementation of the report, which is absolutely vital. I have seen many reports come out of the Oireachtas. I am concerned about their implementation.

I will raise a couple of matters and try to get everything in that I can. We all know that the Seanad will soon debate the Planning and Development Bill, which is colossal legislation with many elements to it. I am concerned that parts of the Bill will empower the Minister to override plans made by local councillors, among other provisions that further centralise power. In consultation with local government stakeholders, my group and I have tabled amendments on these issues, which will be debated in due course. Some of the witnesses made submissions on the Bill during pre-legislative scrutiny by their parties, or their parties have spoken about it in the Dáil, but I want to hear more from them about their views on the Bill's impact on local government. It is vital that we hear a little more about that today.

I will bring up the issue of secretarial and policy assistance and support for councillors. It has come up in a number of submissions to the committee. This is very important. Councillors needs more support. They have to contend with issues of huge technical and social complexity and a large volume of correspondence. We would all struggle to function as Members without our staff. I want to hear a little about some ways of accessing supports that would help councillors represent their constituents better.

I have raised the issue of the abuse faced by councillors and election candidates numerous times throughout this process and in the Chamber. I am glad the issue was referenced in several of the opening statements. I have huge respect for anyone who puts himself or herself forward for election in this environment. I find it particularly powerful that so many migrants, ethnic minorities, women and LGBT people ran for election, despite the disproportionate and vicious abuse they had to contend with, some of which the witnesses touched on. More needs to be done to provide security for councillors and to regulate social media. Social media companies have proved unwilling or unable to adequately regulate themselves. It is about what else needs to be done to secure the integrity of our democratic process and the safety and well-being of our election candidates.

I would like to hear a little more about what needs to be done around getting women elected. The phrase "family friendly" was mentioned. I would love to hear more about that. There are young women in the Civil Engagement Group who have babies and it is a real struggle. They work very hard. I know from listening to councillors that it is also a significant issue for them.

I would like to hear a little more about the mandatory consultative forums referenced by one of the witnesses and the recommendations in that regard. We want to hear from them today in respect of the recommendations in our report but, again, it is all about implementation, which I always come back to. It is to be hoped that the recommendations will be implemented.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everybody and thank them for their statements. I also welcome the wide and diverse groupings we have had throughout the consultation process - today is our last such consultation - which has been very interesting. I agree with what the rapporteur said about the library and research document. It would be no harm, when that is finalised, that it be sent to all the contributors. It is a fascinating read that might explain many of the matters we need to address.

It comes down to three key issues: centralisation of powers, reserved functions versus executive functions and the financing of local authorities. These are the three key principles that need to be addressed when we discuss the future of local democracy. It is great to see members of the CCMA here to get their observations on that. The general observation of putting people first is quite the opposite to what has been presented by the witnesses. Maybe they will expand on that a little as regards policymaking.

Policymaking has been completely removed from local democracy and is wholly centralised at this stage. County development plans started with the national planning framework, NPF, and the regional authorities were then given the decision to assign key towns in each county. They decided population growth. Then there was the introduction of the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, which oversees and ensures the NPF was implemented to the letter of the law. This means there is no flexibility as regards the policymaking in the county development plan, which is the one reserved function each local authority has. Mention climate change, wind strategy or any other policy and you are automatically referred back to national policy and not local policy. From a policy point of view, Putting People First did not restore policymaking to local democracy.

As for local democracy itself, the abolition of town councils removed the feeding ground for introducing people to politics. We need to make it easier for people to get involved in local democracy. We need to review the town councils and municipal districts because there may be something we can address there to get more people involved in local democracy.

On the role of women in local democracy, it is at the grassroots that we must get women involved first. Sometimes I wonder whether the gender quota should have been applied first at local level rather than national level. Mr. Sheehan stated there was a 21% increase in candidates but the return was less than 17%. That is disappointing. Something mentioned by Ms Keane hit home with me. My wife ran in the local elections and she asked me at one stage whether she had to put our home address on the form. At that stage, we were living right beside Newtownmountkennedy, where there was a sensitive issue at the time. That was the only question she asked me.

On financing, Ms Murrell said local government is now getting funding from 30 Departments and State agencies. It is very hard to budget what a council is going to get annually if it is hoping for money from 30 different bodies.

As my time is up, I will return to the three key questions. The centralisation of powers must be looked at. How can we restore them to local government? How do we give more reserved functions and take the executive functions back? How do we finance our local authorities? If we do not finance them, they cannot do anything. They need finance in place so they can make decisions.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome everyone. This has provided a lot of learning for us. The witnesses are clearly very experienced in local government and its administration, including city and county councils, and in the political parties. They have wide experience. The presentations were highly informative and I thank them for their valuable contributions, which will feed in to our final report and recommendations.

This committee has examined in great detail the functions of local government and the relationship between the elected members and the executive council. The work of this committee can potentially be a new starting point for positive, progressive, resilient and effective local government. The relationship between the elected members and the executive council must be recalibrated to allow councillors to perform their key reserved functions. As we all know, there are reserved functions and there are executive functions. I want to dwell on the latter. They broadly cover three areas, namely, policy, oversight and representation. Councillors bring a lot to the table in terms of policy. That is their elected function and it is a reserved function. I therefore appeal to those on the executive side of local authorities to remember that members are elected with an overall policy function. They also have an oversight function and, as the witnesses will know well, many councillors sit on the various audit committees.

The audit committees have improved substantially. This is an area about transparency and about accountability. Councillors again need to be supported. They are not busybodies and they are not pushing beyond their limits, rather they are empowered in legislation to have oversight. Perhaps the most important aspect is representation. Councillors have the right to be, and are elected to be, public representatives. With that comes responsibilities but also co-operation and collaboration between the executives in supporting them with their work. I had an email from a councillor yesterday who told me he has been waiting weeks to meet officials about housing in his local authority. All he gets back is that he needs to engage in the CRM process. Our ask is that we have systems in place. If it is not teams, it is community relationship management structure or whatever, but again, we have got to talk to people in local government. Local government is about people. Politics is all about people. It is all about relationships. If you do not have those two you are going nowhere, so it is irrelevant. That is really important.

There have been many recurring themes in all our deliberations about the need for independent financial advice. Councillors are not accountants, or the majority of them are not anyway. They are not planners, architects, engineers or lawyers, so there is a real need to look at a bank or panel of experienced, independent people who can give advice when required. It is not always required, but what is clear from my engagement with councillors, city and county, is this real need for valid, independent financial, planning and legal advice.

I also take this opportunity to say this is a very important Chamber and I am glad we are having the meeting here. The majority of Senators take their seats here because they are elected by many councillors. That is a good relationship and one we need to keep. It keeps us on our toes and keeps us relevant.

I will finish by thanking the AILG and the LAMA for their engagement on policy. They are feeding up and feeding in to us on policy. Next week we will sit in this Chamber on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday to look at the biggest piece of legislation, possibly, in the history of the State, namely, the Planning and Development Bill 2023. There is an issue of concern.

I take this opportunity to congratulate Ms Murrell, chairperson of the CCMA, on her appointment as the new chief executive of Cork County Council. I also take the opportunity to wish Ms Ann Doherty well. She has been an outstanding public servant and chief executive of Cork City Council. The relationship between our chief executives and councillors is a good one. Let us start to recalibrate that dynamic relationship between chief executives and elected members of councils.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I welcome everyone and thank them for their contributions, which have fed, as other members have said, into what we are trying to do here. The most important thing is we want a report that reflects all the contributions, but also one that works and does not sit on some shelf as previous ones have. There has been mention of previous reports going back to the 1970s, etc. We want to reform local government and that is the most important consideration we can state today and what this committee is all about.

I will start with the town councils, because it was the biggest mistake. I am aware it has been stated at previous meetings we have had. I take from what Dr. Quinn and Dr. Callanan have said there was a mention of strengthening the role of municipal districts. They might tease that out a bit more. Would that be at the expense of not bringing back town councils? I have said this before, but I just do not think municipal districts do what they say they do. That is why we must go back to town councils. I was a proud member of a town council for five years. It really was at the heart of the town, which in this particular case was Athy. We met the people on the street and those people knew their town councillors. I find that what happens in municipal districts - and this is being mentioned again today - is that many of the decisions are being made by people far away and in the far reaches of north Kildare, in many cases. That is wrong and it is why we need to get back to town councils. The Cathaoirleach has said this and has proposed a change as well, which we can obviously consider.

The reserved functions have been mentioned again.

The planning Bill that is coming through is another attack on local government as far as I am concerned. There is no other way of describing it. Mr. Sheahan mentioned Part 8 planning. What came across from the contributions of other councillors in recent weeks is that town teams are being established, for example. We are bringing up people from localities at the expense of the elected person. This is all about those who put their names forward and are elected. It has been mentioned by everybody I have listened to today that the elected person is from the community and represents the community. These town teams do not reflect that. They are picking one of those elected representatives and leaving three or four behind. That is wrong and needs to change. I put that on the record again today.

We have spoken about the regional government structures and I would love to hear what people think of them. There is a need for regional investment and structures. We have asked in the past if there is a need for regional government at the cost of local authorities. As has been said at this committee previously, there is a fear that local authorities do not trust, for want of a better description, regional assemblies. Cross-Border co-operation and investment in roads, etc., is important. It must have a role in the future of local government. I would love to hear more contributions about regional assemblies.

I will move to promotional work for the work of councillors. I was particularly struck by those who put their names forward in some places because their intention was not only to change local government or national government but to change the world. We need promotional work on the work that a councillor does, day in, day out, to reflect the hard work they do. Some of the electorate believes that councillors have more power than they have. We discussed promotional work the last day and that work needs to be put in by every representative. I know LAMA and AILG do their very best in that regard but they need support through local radio and local newspapers, etc., to maintain that. Promotional work needs to be done because that is how we can attract people into local government.

We also need more women in government. That has to be said at every opportunity. We rank 103rd in the world in our national Parliament, which is simply not good enough. Ms Kane was right in what she said about the addresses of candidates. They should have the option not to include their addresses. Mr. Sheehan mentioned accelerating change and that is what we need to do. He might come back on how we can do that.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank all our guests for taking the time to be here and for their quality inputs. There is no question about the quality of their inputs and the degree of thought they have all put into them. All of their contributions were interesting. When the general secretaries spoke, they put a particular emphasis on people because they are at the coalface of recruiting and getting people in. All of the difficulties that were cited are at the heart of the difficulty in getting quality people into local government all the time.

The first issue is, of course, the conditions. While we have made great strides recently, we need to go on doing so in order that people of quality will feel they can give the time and the commitment required. Naturally, people have to be motivated but they must also live in the real world. We need to review the conditions on a fairly regular basis.

The participation of women in government and in politics at all levels is critical. There is an unanswerable case for breaking the glass ceiling by putting gender quotas on a statutory basis for local government. That will be a prerequisite. It is beginning to percolate and work in the Oireachtas and it will have to work in local government too.

I meant to say at the outset that this whole conversation has a particular significance in the light of the growth of extremism across Europe. The green shoots have, thankfully, been very thin in this country but they are there. We need to head off extremism and the way to do that is through good local government with women's participation.

The powers are critical. The following is meant as a question or a challenge and I am interested to hear the responses.

Until the day comes that those in local government – I know personally many of those local representatives who are present and they are my friends – are actually imposing and raising tax and justifying it to the people they represent, they will not really have power. The only way it can be done is to have, in some way, an allowance for local taxation against national taxation and in some way to arrive at a marriage of the two. It is the opposite to the American Revolution in that, until those in local government are collecting taxes, they will have no power. It is all a very abstract, lovely, academic discussion but until local representatives are meeting people on the street and explaining to them why they collected money and what they did with it, they will not have the level of relevance they need.

It would be interesting to hear a response on the directly elected mayors. There is the degree to which the witnesses are holding their counsel until they see what happens but I would like to hear their responses on whether we should spread the initiative immediately.

I am one of those who believes we should review the town council question. The tricky aspect, on which I would like a response from the AILG and LAMA representatives, concerns how we knit the municipal authorities into a new system involving the reintroduction of town councils when town populations reach a certain level. How do we get that marriage right?

I see a dichotomy and a way in which regional authorities actually destroy local government. If power is devolved or given up to a regional authority, it is given away from the local councils. I would like the representatives’ responses on that.

As a member of the parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe, I am very conscious that the view in all reports to the Council of Europe is that Ireland has the weakest form of local government in Europe in terms of participation, numbers, financing and powers, including devolved powers. This needs to be addressed urgently.

I am interested in hearing the delegates’ responses to these questions because they are challenging for us in drawing up our report.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We have a little under an hour and about three minutes for injury time. However, I would like to hear everybody’s opinions or statements on what they have heard, including the questions posed.

Ms Moira Murrell:

I will come in on some of the items raised, and Mr. Kelly may also wish to comment.

I have a few points. The devolution and centralisation of powers are matters of national policy. Obviously, I am not going to comment on areas pertinent to national policy but I can say that where powers have been devolved to local government, particularly regarding community, including the economic community aspect but also integration and local leadership, the local authorities have been able to demonstrate local leadership at both municipal and county levels. Local authorities have been very much able to deliver well where powers have been devolved. That is why I noted the model. We are engaging with so many Departments and delivering locally for so many agencies at this stage and this shows the ability, agility and diversity of local government to operate in a meaningful way in this area.

The stability of financial planning for local authorities is critical. This is relevant where there is a myriad of engagements, even from a staffing perspective.

With regard to our view on municipal districts and town councils, I am aware that the matter will be considered here.

My experience from being chief executive since 2014 when the changes came in is that the municipal districts cover all areas. That is important, perhaps, where the town councils traditionally covered some areas with populations but did not cover all areas of larger populations.

The other strength I would see in the municipal districts is that the members of that municipal district are also members of the full council. They look at county development plans and local economic and community plans and are very much involved in countywide policy and the SPCs, all of which are very strong in policy. From my perspective, I would see that they are able to bring that to the municipal district and vice versa. I mentioned the urban regeneration funds and the rural regeneration funds, we are seeing millions of euros going into areas because the opportunity is there. Much of it is co-funded, which is another consideration, but the municipal districts have brought quite a good deal to the forward planning and plan-led approach. I know there are different views about the town councils and I respect that 100% as well. This is just my comment on the municipal districts.

On the other area of the relationship between the elected members and executive, my experience and that of many of my colleagues is that one of the key areas for good governance is a good working relationship between the elected member and the executive. If that is broken, it will impact on how a local authority operates. For me, there are so many opportunities to build on that good relationship, such as a strong CPG, working SPC structures, and the day-to-day engagement that exists. Our council meetings, which are held monthly or sometimes more than once a month in public session with the press there, and the annual budget process are a great time for engagement with the elected members on the priorities for that given year and there is enormous engagement.

I take the point that has been made about the county development plan. That works to national policy and the constraints of that, but the sheer level of engagement at a local level on the county development plan is huge. Sometimes the outcome of that will come through sensible negotiations at local level and, indeed, centrally with the members.

The audit committees were also mentioned and they have brought something very important to local government. The fact there are the elected members and external professionals who look at risks across the organisation and who meet with the chief executive and the local government auditor, which is then reported back in through the council, has brought something very strong to the whole area of local government.

Those are just a few thoughts.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Murrell. I call Mr. Kevin Kelly, chief executive of Mayo County Council.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I just have a couple of points to follow from Ms Murrell and from the perspective of the members. I have worked in local government for a long number of years, in Dublin County Council, Galway City Council, Laois, Carlow and Kildare and I am now chief executive in Mayo. Many of the issues that have are being discussed have been discussed for a long time.

I will make a number of comments from my own experience in dealing with this. I looked at the previous discussions on this topic and there was a lot about reserved-executive functions. In my experience and as outlined by Ms Murrell, there is a very good working relationship between the executive and the members, by and large. Sometimes, it becomes an issue not about the reserved-executive functions but about when you start doing something like the county development plan, you are dealing with issues which are national policy, and you are trying to explain to the members why you are suggesting something does not happen or a particular approach is not taken because of national policy. Maybe sometimes that is reflected as the view of the chief executive as opposed to giving guidance.

A very good example of the approach, and I know Councillor Damien Ryan is here, was when we were doing the county development plan in Mayo. We sat down for hours and hours with the members in small groups to talk through all of the issues in detail before we went into the council chamber at all. That is the kind of collaborative proactive approach that happens in most local authorities.

I know from the debates that the issue of planning has come up significantly in all of the contributions. I often think back. I was in Kildare when the Planning and Development Act 2000 came in. It was a completely different scenario at that stage. I remember sending out three local area plans on one day, which you could do at that time. You could not possibly do that now without a team of people to do it because it has become very complex and it is very difficult for the members. I fully appreciate all of the work done by the AILG, LAMA and the IPA. However, more work needs to be done in the context of support for elected members in understanding all of these things that are happening and why they are happening. We have talked about the change from the JPC. We had a discussion in the council chamber yesterday about that. There is probably not an understanding as to what the intent is and why certain changes are happening.

Senator Boyhan talked about policy and representation, which are two things I think are very important. Only yesterday we had a discussion in the chamber with the members. I advocated strongly for the members, at the start of a new council, to take the opportunity from and a hold of the SPCs, take the policy issues they want to consider and work hard on bringing those policy changes through to the council rather than the executive being the ones to bring forward the policy. I fully advocate and would support the members in being involved in a small number of areas where they do that with our support.

On the representatives, one of the things I do is meet all the new staff in Mayo County Council on a continuous basis in groups. I talk to them about the values we have as an organisation, what we want to see and what we want to achieve. One of the points I make is about the elected members, their role as representatives of the community and how important that is. We have talked about members of the public as well. We have to give good customer service. I am conscious of the fact the elected members are there to represent the public and we need to respect that. I encourage to make sure we do that across all staff.

The issue of the town councils has come up quite a bit. I was a town manager for nine years, so I can understand exactly what the town councils could do and the level of autonomy they had. It was disparate, as Ms Murrell pointed out. I think 80 town councils represented 14% of the population at that point in time. Even within that, there was disparity between the former UDCs and the former town commissions. For example, in Kildare, Naas and Athy were former UDCs with the full range of functions. Leixlip and Newbridge were former town commissions with very few functions. Then there were significant towns, such as Maynooth, Celbridge and Kildare, that did not have anything. Ms Murrell pointed out that now all of the areas under a municipal district have an equality. Indeed, in Mayo, in the Claremorris-Swinford municipal district, there is Claremorris, Swinford, Ballinrobe and Ballyhaunis. They had nothing. They had no town council of any description. At least now there is a structure that allows that geographic location to function and have a representational role as a unit.

There is provision related to the independent advice piece in respect of planning legislation. I do not view that as something where the members require that it has to be the chief executive who picks where the independent advice comes from. I think there is methodology for the members to input into that. I fully support the idea of the members having the advice they require to carry out the functions entrusted to them.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time and I want to bring in people who have not made a contribution so far, and then go back and finish with the general secretaries but others as well.

Mr. Damien Ryan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address this forum. I am conscious of time. I will try not to be repetitive, but there are a few things I wish to say.

First, regarding the reintroduction of town councils, I come from an area, as the chief executive of Mayo has just mentioned, that never had a town council but now has the provision of a municipal district. It is probably one of the most cohesive and constructive municipal districts in the country.

There are vacuums in towns but we certainly do not need to dismantle the municipal districts. We might need to enhance them somewhat. That is the way forward because heretofore there was a significant rates base in the town councils. That was primarily spent in the urbanised area, which meant the large geographical areas outside of that were deprived of money. The issue of the funding of local authorities has come up, but maybe an enhanced municipal district is the way to go. The municipal district structure is certainly serving the large communities very well. If there is any criticism of it, it is about how we look at funding local authorities going forward.

That brings me to the issue of executive functions versus reserved functions. There is a level of respect in the majority of local authorities throughout the country. The majority of councillors get elected to make responsible decisions. That works very well where there is that level of respect. There will always be issues that cause friction but councillors have to realise that with power comes responsibility. We sign up to improve our local authorities and the areas and people we represent. There may need to be a penalty or sanction for councillors who prove problematic all the time and take negative decisions that have a direct impact on their areas. The experience seems to be that when we find it hard to get stuff through at national level, reserved functions are being eroded and become a ministerial act or executive function. That is causing friction. That is being honest. We need to look at the issue of giving power to a councillor. We all look for power but we have to realise and appreciate that responsibility comes with that, including economic and policy responsibility and all that constitutes reserved functions.

The JPCs were mentioned. I have no issue with the community partnerships that have been set up. However, those partnerships were a retrograde step that needs to be revisited. One of the most effective arms of local government was the JPCs. The community partnerships could work in tandem with the JPCs, maybe from a municipal district level up, but we need our county JPCs restored. Law and order is part and parcel of what we do. We have no role in law and order but we can certainly point to where the issues are coming from.

We pride ourselves on being proud Europeans but our regional structures have let us down significantly. The most recent development plan ignored pretty much 38% of the land mass of Ireland, with a few minor exceptions. If we had strong regional powers, with recommendations into a national plan, the likes of that would not happen. We need to look at how that is done in Europe.

In any discussion of future terms and conditions for local authority members, a seat has to be afforded at that particular negotiating table. We represent the body of councillors of Ireland. We are the union, as such, of councillors. That needs to be afforded to LAMA and the AILG. It is very important we have a voice in that regard.

The other part of it, and this goes back to reserved versus executive functions, is the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, and the targets imposed upon us. It became as if management was trying to enforce stuff upon us. We were given unrealistic targets in our development plans. It is our main role but the straitjacket superimposed on us was unrealistic and unworkable in a scenario where there is a housing crisis. That came along with the withdrawal of Part 8s.

It goes back to what I said regarding people having to take their responsibilities seriously. They cannot take them lightly. There has to be a sanction for problematic councillors where the area and region they represent is being deliberately denied the investment and projects it needs. The strategy must also reflect a fair and equal balance across the areas. If the need originates in the areas, we are all obliged to look after that need.

Mr. Paraic Brady:

I thank Senators for meeting us today. I will address some of the issues regarding the municipal district, MD, areas. It comes back to the AILG. It seems that the larger the municipal area, the greater the work done in that area is. It is seen that all the work gets done in MD areas.

As for town teams, town councils and one thing or another, I know, as a member from Longford County Council, that we have a small municipal district with a small number of members on our council. We have a great working relationship with our management and our directors of services. We have think-ins with our management teams at all times. That is why our local authority works. However, coming back to the bigger local authorities, members feel there is a divide between management, CEOs and members. This is what has come back to us through the AILG. There is disconnect between the CEOs, new councillors and councillors who have been elected for a number of years. There is no trust in councillors to actually make decisions. This is what has come back to us. A bit more trust needs to be given to councillors. I totally agree that with trust comes responsibility. I am sure, with upskilling and training, councillors can and will step up to the plate.

As for funding, Senator Joe O'Reilly spoke about local taxation. We collect our property tax in our areas and therefore, we actually lift funding locally ourselves. From members' feedback, there needs to be more trust given to councillors, as well as increased cohesion between our management and staff to make decisions collectively. Going forward, that is possible.

We all know the problems and we are all addressing them here. Everyone is aware of what has been said here today. Certain areas have improved in the past five years. One of the schemes which was of great benefit to councillors was the scheme in which councillors were given security cameras to improve safety and their visual impact within their houses. It cut down on that whole area of abuse around councillors' own private dwellings. It gave councillors a bit more safety. Things have improved. Everything seems to be negative but things have improved. We can go a lot further with this. I thank the committee for its time today.

Mr. Terry Shannon:

I was not going to speak but since I have been called, I might as well speak a few words. I come here today somewhat sceptical. I am around a long time and have seen many reports come and go. We have seen the powers of councillors diminished by Members in this House and by Members in the other House. Some of that may be our own fault in that many councillors like to see tough decision being taken by management because management can be blamed afterwards out on the street. We are right at the coalface of administration, local government or whatever you want to call it. A lot of councillors do not want to upset their neighbours.

I have noticed in Dublin local authorities, in particular, councillors taking pride in the fact they have reduced the property tax by 15%. There are massive problems in local authorities and giving back or not collecting millions of euro while at the same time going to central government for funding, which of course it is not going to get, and blaming the Government for a lack of facilities in areas is counterproductive. We need to take responsibility for ourselves.

If it is the role of Government to do a lot of things locally, then let us abolish local government. Let us all go home and let the Government and the Minister for local government run all our cities and county councils. Of course, that is not what it is about. We should be, as is the European mantra of subsidiarity, taking decisions locally as close to the people as possible. Who better to do that than local councillors who are elected by their friends and neighbours? We need to stand up and, at times, be honest with the public and say, no, sorry, we cannot do that for you or we are not in a position to do that for you. Until we have a bit of bravery ourselves, that is not going to happen.

I have been a member of Cork City Council for 25 years. I have less power now than I had when I started. I may have bit more money, thanks to LAMA and the AILG, but I have less power. However, I have a huge amount of influence and that is something people miss. As councillors, we can use our influence with management. Ms Ann Doherty was mentioned. We had our last council meeting with her yesterday. I made the point that she, like other chief executives, had, through executive authority, the ability to impose certain things on local authorities.

Due to that collegiality and partnership, where the council was opposed to something, it did not happen. It is that connection we have which is important. While councillors bemoan the fact we are losing powers, we do not use the influence or network we have either.

Refuse has been mentioned and it is an issue that comes up quite a lot. We had the ability many years ago to collect bins. In Cork, we had a fabulous facility where we gave waivers of 100%, 50% or 25% to people who were not in a position to pay. We had quite a number of councillors wage campaigns telling people not to pay. It was a big issue. Do not pay for your bins, someone else will pay for it - free bins. There is nothing free. Someone pays for it eventually. I remember saying to somebody who had a full waiver but whose son said he would not pay anymore, because why should he, that we had added an extra tally or benefit onto the cost to pay for those waivers. That lady now pays €300 for her bin charges when she had a full waiver before, simply because we were no longer in a position to do it. My point is, if we want all of these powers, which we do, and we want some of the powers people in this House have taken from us, and not supported us on - I am thinking in terms of the JPCs and other areas where our powers have been diminished - we personally must take responsibility as well.

With regard to directly elected mayors, until such time as powers are devolved from Ministers, Departments and officials, there is nothing in it for us as a population. We can give directly elected mayors all the money we like and move around the responsibilities, taking some of them from councillors and management to cobble together this good-looking job. However, the directly elected mayor will be responsible for everything and you are thrown out in five years' time because you were useless simply because you did not have the proper powers. If we are talking about directly elected mayors, let us devolve government from central policy in the areas of health, security, education, environment and the lot. Until such time as we stop the notion of a Minister or TD coming down to announce the roadway or dual carriageway and until we get over that, we will not have effective local government or local administration.

Mr. Micheál Anglim:

I thank the committee for inviting us today. As chairperson of LAMA, it is a great honour to sit in the Seanad Chamber. I will not go back over what other colleagues have spoken about. I will be fairly brief but I will say a few words on the issue of candidate and councillor safety. In the election just gone by we found with some candidates who were running, and I will speak about my own area in particular, and there is a phrase - "keyboard warriors" - and you could nearly go so far as to call them "TikTok warriors" now as well, that there was a willingness to throw good people under the bus for no reason at all. It is sad to see the level of respect in councillors, candidates and elections that was there in my father's time, God rest him, and in Councillor Terry Shannon's and Councillor John Sheahan's times, who are in this game for longer than I am, has waned to the extent it has. You respect people and maybe society as a whole seems to be going in a bad way. Whatever can be done should be done to try to bring us back onto the straight and narrow. Some candidates had to put up with atrocious things being said about them due to being from ethnic minorities or to their gender, not just by keyboard warriors but by actual candidates. That is plain wrong. I will leave my contribution at that.

Mr. Joe Malone:

I thank the committee for the invitation.

There has been a lot of talk about town councils but I would like to see the reintroduction of the borough council. I was originally a borough councillor, from 2019 to 2014, when the local government Act put paid to that. As a municipal district member of Kilkenny city council, I feel we now have very few, if any, powers now. It is all done in the council headquarters in John Street. With the old borough council, there were nine of them but they were abolished. Not one member appearing before the committee has mentioned the borough council. Is there a possibility or a grá from the party members who are sitting behind me or the Senators to my left to bring back borough councillors? That was where the real power was.

I loved the time I spent on the borough council and much was achieved. I recall that Phil Hogan was Minister at the time and, to be fair to him, he delivered a lot. The 2014 Act came in then and destroyed it. When I arrived at this meeting, Mr. Brian Sheehan was talking about getting more women into politics. Of course, we would all like it if there were more women in politics but, at the end of the day, we put our names on a ballot paper and it is up to the people to decide who they want to represent them for the next five years.

I thank the members for allowing us to attend the meeting.

Mr. Tom Moylan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the invitation. I will try to hit a couple of the questions, perhaps not specifically but in general. As regards the centralisation of our local government system, we are all well aware of it. We highlighted in our opening statement, and previously in our submission, the dominance of central government over local government, and at local level the dominance of the executive over the elected members. We are well aware of it. To me, it comes down to trust. Central government just does not trust local government. It is as simple as that, and I think we can all agree on that. Whether that is central government at a political or Government level or at a departmental level, they just do not trust local government.

In fairness to the local government sector and the local authorities, in the past ten years, they have come a long way to reverse that. They got the local economic development remit in 2014, coming out of the financial crash, and the work of the local enterprise offices, LEOs, has shown they can deliver on local economic development. They have shown they can deliver at a local community level, with the realignment of local community development with local authorities and the local government sector in 2014. We saw it during Covid with the community response forums, and we can take that through to the Ukrainian refugee crisis and the wider refugee crisis. When local authorities are asked to step up to the mark in the local government sector, they can do it.

It comes down to trust, and at a central government level, they need to trust local authorities and the elected members. It is up to associations such as AILG and LAMA to provide training to our members and upskill them. Our members have a challenge whereby they need to balance their statutory and oversight roles with their representative roles. Powers will not be devolved to local government level or, indeed, to our elected councils and their elected members until we can show, at central government level, that our members will carry out their statutory and oversight functions within the council chamber, and that is very important.

On the issue of municipal districts versus town councils, it is our mandate in AILG to work within the system out of municipal districts. They are the sub-county structure of local government that currently exists. From all our research and, in particular, from our Maynooth report, we know that our members value the structure of municipal districts. They work, and our members feel that day-to-day operational issues can be discussed at municipal districts. They could be improved. They need more financial autonomy and the municipal district budgetary plans need to be better aligned to the schedule of municipal district works. Both those issues need to be synergised and go hand in hand in order that the public on the ground can see, through the schedule of municipal district works, what works are being carried out at local and municipal district levels.

The municipal districts do work and can work and our research and that of others has shown that.

On powers and functions, Senator O'Reilly and others have said, and I agree, that there is no point in looking for more powers and functions without finance and without revenue-raising powers for local authority level for the elected members and for the local authorities themselves. A proper funding model for local authorities with substantial revenue-raising powers has to go hand in hand with that.

On the participation of women, in the recent local elections held in June, 812 or 86% of outgoing councillors put themselves forward for election again. As 205 of those were sitting female councillors, 83% of our sitting female councillors put themselves at the local elections. If we are to move the dial in getting our council chambers more gender neutral we must retain the female councillors we have, which we have started. A lot of work has gone into that by a number of organisations - Women for Election are here and our own Elaine Lynch has done a huge amount of work on that - and that is a start. A total of 247 women councillors were elected, which is an increase of 22, or 10%, from the number of women councillors elected in 2019. The opportunity may be in the next general and Seanad elections, where current councillors may be elected to higher office and there will be co-options and vacancies. If the political parties make a conscious effort to promote female councillors in those co-options, we can get to 26% higher than it is now.

Mr. Brian Sheehan:

I thank the Senator for those questions. To save time, I will come back on some of them. I appreciate the consistency around the address issue. I thank the Senator for raising that. The is an opportunity coming in the electoral Bill, which is due soon. It could be the vehicle to drive that, as well as including additional childcare costs as an allowable electoral expense.

I will come back to Senator Black with more detail on the family friendly issue. They apply in particular to women but also to men and to people who are single parents. Much of it goes to care. There was talk of crèches, short meetings and late meetings. A big issue seemed to be the arrival of papers in advance of council meetings. They often arrived on Friday for a meeting on Monday. It is just not possible to do it. There are things like that. Another thing that has been raised already is the kind of culture on councils that are dominated by men by virtue of numbers. There is a culture that needs to shift to have a bit more civility in general - that goes across all layers of politics - to be more inclusive of women. We have many examples of women who felt excluded in the course of how councils work.

If I may I will pick up on other things later. Briefly on how we accelerate progress, I would say a couple of things. We have worked very closely with councils across the country. They are super avenues to drive engagement at grassroots level with women, as the Senator said. In particular, we do a lot of sessions, in partnership with the council, where we bring women into sitting council chambers. That is a real driver of change where women can see themselves sitting in those seats. We would like the funding that is made available by the Department to councils to be much earlier and much more sustained in order that it could be a five-year plan rather than a plan in the last year or so. That is a really positive initiative and one which could be accelerated.

We think quotas are really important for diversity but it is about women in winnable seats. The corollary of quotas is that political parties are strongly supported to bring people through from the earliest levels and the grassroots level, as the Senator said, all the way up. They go hand in hand. There is scope for them and we know they work but it is about winnable seats.

The last thing is about the political parties. As Mr. Moylan just said, there are opportunities. Labour in the UK had women-only shortlists for much of its selection conventions. It led to 52% women in the Labour Party in the last Parliament. It is a very different system and I get that.

Women-only co-options will support the incumbent councillors being elected. Political parties having 50% women on all internal committees, particularly selection committees, brings forward the talented and capable women we know are there who could serve as councillors.

Mr. Pat Fitzpatrick:

I thank the Senators for their contributions. A lot of us are speaking one language. We are speaking of the concerns we have. Between the executives and the members, there has to be a lot of working together. However, there also has to be a healthy balance. We are elected and sent in by the public to push for whatever are the requirements. We have to challenge the executives, which is important. Something not mentioned is that the council has changed over many years. We are 125 years in existence. However, there is the issue of supports for the councillors in the council facilities, so members have access to rooms and so on. Some councils have them and others have not. A party has its particular rooms available five days per week. Sometimes when we look for meeting rooms, they are not available and are overcrowded. To provide better local government you have to provide better facilities as well. Yes, there is the loss of powers, but there is nothing to say councillors cannot meet the challenges put in front of them. Councillors are responsible. That is why the electorate sent back so many councillors who put themselves before them, and re-elected councillors. It is because they have trust in them. Central government and departmental officials have to have trust in the local authority members.

Again, the supports have to be provided. We do not need to see the likes of the JPCs, which, as was stated correctly, have worked superbly over recent years. If they want to bring something into the municipal districts that is fine, but in terms of counties we need to have the JPCs. It is all about who is answering at these. We need to see at least a chief superintendent and a CEO of the council answering. The way we are going we will have a reserve Garda answering to us at the forums they are proposing. We have no real say and we are losing. That is one area the Minister and the Government could look at again quickly to reduce and give us back some of the powers taken away from us late last year.

Dr. Bríd Quinn:

Senator Black asked a question about the consultative forum in Limerick. It is exciting to be in Limerick at the moment - apart from last Sunday - with the roll-out of the directly elected mayor. One of the mechanisms included is the consultative forum, the purpose of which, in the words of the legislation, is to advise the Minister about any matter that affects or is likely to affect Limerick or the performance or functions of the mayor. What I emphasise as important in it is bringing together Ministers at national level with the mayor at local level so that the issues are going to be discussed. I would like to see some form of mandatory consultation like that being spread throughout the country.

Another issue mentioned was the town councils, which has been well rehearsed. As a detached observer, I always highlighted the lack of universality of town councils and other urban arrangements. When they were there, they worked and contributed hugely. However, huge parts of the country had no such representation. I see the municipal districts as an opportunity for universal coverage. I am from a rural area, as might be gathered, but it might also reduce the urban-rural divide that exists as much at local level as it does when you take the country as a whole. When town councils existed there was a lot of duplication in the sense of needing to have multiple plans and budgets and so on, which had to be co-ordinated.

There was a bit of overlap and so on.

Moving on to the regions, it is a jigsaw puzzle with regard to the regional allocation of public services and so on. We need to co-ordinate our regions for public service purposes. With regard to the regional assemblies and connections with Europe, somebody in academia once said Ireland prostituted itself with regard to regions in the sense that for whatever opportunity was available for funding from Europe, we created regions that would fit in with that opportunity. There has never been a philosophy of regional governance. There has been pragmatism to avail of funding and so on. We need to get rid of that. Even with regard to the regional assemblies and the councillors that are on them, there is no accountability mechanism to the public and so on. If we are reconfiguring our regional assemblies or changing their purposes, we need to build in that sort of accountability mechanism for the public. I will leave it at that. I could go on forever.

Mr. Liam Kenny:

I want to talk about something very specific that occupies a significant amount of the workload of our councillors, especially in rural areas, namely, planning. As has been mentioned, we have the Planning and Development Bill, and I congratulate Oireachtas Members on their stamina in negotiating such a leviathan of a Bill. In consultation with our members on the Bill over the past 18 months, a few issues have been raised. Some are probably lost to us in terms of being able to change the Bill at this stage.

There is one specific and local matter, that is, section 90 of the Bill. There is provision for an applicant for a large-scale rural development to be accompanied by somebody of his or her choosing. A number of our members have pointed out there is no such provision for an applicant for a standard planning application, such as a single rural house, in a pre-consultation meeting. It is something that has no cost or legislation implications. An amendment could be made to the Bill such that an applicant for a standard planning application pre-consultation meeting could be accompanied by an adviser, such as a councillor. There are arm's length procedures already in place to ensure everything is above board. I ask whether that could be considered when the Seanad examines the Bill next week.

Mr. Shane O'Brien:

On Senator O'Reilly's comments on directly elected mayors, that has broad political support and potential. Some of it will be in the workings. A number of amendments were rejected during the Oireachtas legislative process, such as the powers to acquire land for purposes of residential development and so on and so forth. Time will tell regarding directly elected mayors. We have an issue with the lack of universal coverage. I do not believe there should be a delay in asking people in Dublin, Galway and elsewhere whether they support the concept of a directly elected mayor. Plans can be made to hold future elections if that is what the people of those cities so wish.

I would like to make a point regarding one matter that has not been touched on. We are talking about the future of democracy, in particular good local democracy. It is important we have constitutional recognition in terms of Article 28A, but we have no constitutional protection. Local democracy, all of the councillors that are here today and future generations of councillors who will continue to do work could be got rid of with the swipe of a pen or a decree by any Government that wants to destroy or enhance democracy. That is something that needs to be examined in the context of the report the committee will publish. It is not good enough to just recognise local government. It needs to be protected.

On some of the points made about town and borough councils, I am not old enough to have served on a town council. I am devoid of some of the experience members have brought to the committee. I recognise there is an issue in terms of a sense of place, connection and trust. While municipal districts are working well in many instances, they could work better. The re-establishment of town councils on a different basis could support reconnection and the development and enhancement of trust between local communities and government.

Ms Billie Sparks:

I will touch on just a couple of points related to the questions raised. As I stated in my opening remarks, the Labour Party absolutely supports the notion of councillors having independent legal and financial advice. That is crucial to enable them to make their decisions.

I would like to talk a little about women in politics, in particular. All the general secretaries of the political parties present would be keen to focus on this. In the Labour Party, including Labour Women, the section of the party that works with women members and candidates, we provide a lot of training, including resilience training and training on preparing for election, and we make sure people go forward for positions within the party, even if they are not elected positions.

The notion of the 5 Cs - the Cs regarded as obstacles to women who wish to get involved in politics - is well rehearsed. There is a sixth C that has come around of late: cyber. I know "cyber" is not the perfect word but, in order to make all the words begin with C, it kind of works. I am referring to both the cyber issue and cyberbullying, in addition to the abuse people get online. There is only so much that we as political parties can do to shelter people from this or help them in how they respond to it, or do not respond to it, as is often the case. However, a big body of work needs to be done to regulate social media companies and platforms in this country. Cyberbullying is having an impact on people stepping forward into political life, and that is not good for any of us. We want community activists to put themselves forward to run for office and represent the people. They are doing what they are doing for the right reasons but they are turned off because they know they will expose not only themselves but also their families to online abuse. That is something we really need to address. I hope the committee will deal with this strongly in its report. It affects all in society, not just candidates or elected representatives.

Ms Maura McMahon:

I will respond to a few of the questions pertinent to the Green Party. Senator Black asked a question specifically about support for councillors and concerns about getting women elected. We are deeply appreciative of the funding that was made available by the Department of housing to support maternity and paternity leave and provide secretarial support. We would encourage pooling and more equitable supports at local level so everybody can continue to have access. A suggestion of our councillor Eva Dowling was on proxy voting for women, in particular.

I recognise the incredible work done by Women for Election, which has representatives here, but also See Her Elected, the National Women's Council and the Immigrant Council of Ireland. They are doing incredible work in terms of support. Therefore, we see the changes coming on stream, as the CEO of Women for Election has mentioned, but it is really the lack of societal change that is a major blocker, along with the issue of unconscious bias. This could be tackled with a cross-party or cross-sectoral initiative to help voters shift the dial so more women will be elected. Gender quotas are part of that but there is significant work to be done still with the electorate on understanding and being confident about selecting an increasing number of women to run for local and national government.

The second point I want to make is on the comments made on member functions, transparency and accountability. The Green Party believes the decision-making process on the likes of capital budgets should include elected councillors. There were many comments on cohesion and collaboration. Addressing transparency would include big decisions currently made at executive function level.

On supports, which my colleague has just mentioned, the Green Party, as one of the smaller parties, does not have resources at the same level as other parties. We do, indeed, source significant legal advice and private security for many of our members. I believe our party is the only one that has a constitutional requirement for gender balance. We have spent large amounts of money trying to support our local councillors, in particular, around verbal abuse and social media abuse. Somebody mentioned the defacing of signs and having to purchase more signs. Disinformation campaigns are highly organised online, even targeting people at their private residences and interfering with their families. Unfortunately, one of our local women councillors was assaulted at one point during the campaign. Those providing the funding that needs to be made available have to take into consideration the fact that smaller parties do not have the same resources as larger ones.

We need a coherent security plan that is cross-county and cross-council which everybody can access. I acknowledge the work of Women for Elections in trying to draw that together in one of its most recent documents, on which it worked with An Garda Síochána.

We recognise the extraordinary leadership Europe provides with regional assemblies. I echo some of the comments made earlier in that we need a better system. It cannot be perfunctory. We have representatives at the Committee of the Regions. We have a councillor, and now mayor, of Cork, Dan Boyle, but we do not have the necessary governance mechanisms in place as a country. We operate like an outlier because of our systems. We encourage an examination of that.

Mr. John Carroll:

I will speak briefly to two elements. With regard to increasing female participation in local government, this is something we are quite committed to as a party. We are quite proud of the fact, and we have a record in this regard over a number of electoral cycles at a European, Dáil and local government level.

There is a lot of talk about a quota system for local government and local democracy. I am not sure that will be particularly effective because I am not sure what it would be linked to or what the incentives would be to do so. It also creates a perverse incentive to run candidates for the sake of running candidates rather than running people to win seats. Any system centred on encouraging more female participation should be about rewarding parties for getting people elected rather than putting names on a ballot paper.

Anyone who has done a post-election review knows that it is a lot easier to talk to people who had a good experience and won, or came close to winning, a seat, rather than talking to somebody who has run in a scenario where they were encouraged to do so for some broader purpose. No matter how a person enters the process - they might have their eyes wide open in that regard - everyone, once the posters are up, is in it to win it. We need to ensure people who are going forward for election have a good experience and, if they are not elected, will want to go again in the future. I urge a bit of caution around some of the pieces on quotas.

There are five general secretaries and representatives of political parties here. There is a force in Irish politics of independents. They are not contributing to increasing gender participation in Irish politics or producing a large swathe of women to run for election and get elected to local government across the country. Until thought and consideration is given to that element of the matter, the quota system needs further thought and investigation.

With regard to abuse, we are quite proud of the number of migrant candidates we ran and the success they had in this electoral cycle, but over the past four years there has been an increased social acceptance of a level of abuse. The defacing of posters in this election cycle was disgraceful. We face a choice during the course of an election to highlight this, draw attention to the fact and potentially define a candidate by this abuse or whatever else or not seek to bring it into the public domain. That is a choice that has to be worked out by each individual candidate.

I am not sure of the reasons for it, but we all have a role to play in our parties and brother political structure. It is easy to blame this behaviour on Twitter or X, which has definitely played a role, but it is also important to look at the broader discourse in Irish public life. We have to wonder why it became acceptable in this election cycle for people to deface large numbers of posters of migrant candidates when that did not happen five or ten years ago. There is something broader at play that needs thought and consideration. It is about more than just regulating social media.

Mr. Seán Dorgan:

I mentioned the town councils issue in my opening statement. I do not think it matters what we call them. Going back ten years, the decision was made to abolish town councils. Taking Dr. Quinn's point, the system is not perfect and there are swathes of towns which had no representation while others were over-represented by the model.

What we have observed over the last ten years is that municipal districts are undoubtedly working in a lot of areas but Ireland has changed. It has become increasingly urban and nearly two thirds of our population now describe themselves as living in an urban centre. In the current system of national and local government, there are towns that are being left behind and do not have effective representation. There is a real opportunity in the committee's report to reimagine local government and how, in a modern Ireland, our local government infrastructure should look and work. I am not talking about changing the existing system because I think that works really well. However, in a lot of urban centres around Ireland, which we all want to be thriving, successful, prosperous places, there is an opportunity to have another layer of effective local democracy trying to champion and improve their place and ensuring their place is prioritised. In the last ten years, the lack of that in the new model was an unintended consequence but I think it is probably an area that would benefit. That is a real opportunity for the report because it is in everyone's interest that towns and urban centres have a thriving layer of local democracy, as mentioned by Senator O'Reilly and Senator Wall. Councillor Malone mentioned borough councils and I should have included those when I was talking about town councils.

I was always struck, when talking to our councillors, that they would often say their powers were diminishing. This may be a trite, small point to make but it is probably illustrative of where some councils are at. When you go on the websites of some councils, you would be there a long time trying to find out who the elected members are. That tells its own story.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Keogan is a not a member of the committee but she has come in. If any other members want to make a contribution, it must be brief because we are in injury time. I call Senator Pat Casey.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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It is all about trying to increase participation in local democracy. This is where we have to think about this third layer of government and what that is. Is it town councils or is it an expansion of the municipal district councils? We have to be honest with ourselves that the role of a councillor is now almost a full-time one. There is no point trying to fool ourselves in that respect. All parties had difficulties trying to secure candidates for the recent local elections. If someone were to tell their employer tomorrow morning that they wanted to run in the local elections, the employer would ask them whether they want a job or to run in the local elections. That is the reality. As Councillor Anglim said, the respect is not there anymore for politics in general but definitely in relation to the role of the councillors. The respect and value a councillor can bring to a community are now lost to the general public and that needs to be addressed.

Trying to increase participation is about making it easier for people to engage in politics. That is where we have to look at this third layer of government. Whether than means expanding the municipal districts or establishing some form of town or urban district councils, that is the space we need to be in. We need people to be easily engaged in the democratic process. It is not easy to engage at the moment and the role of a councillor is, for want of a better word, full-time. As one of the witnesses said, you may get documents on a Friday and you do not have time to read them. The first decision at the first meeting of the new Wicklow County Council was a legal decision on whether the members would give the chief executive the power to represent them at a High Court hearing of a judicial review of the county development plan.

They are sitting there without anybody explaining it to them. This is where this advice is needed for councillors but overall, it is about trying to make it easier for the people to participate in local democracy and that is where this third layer of government is needed.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for the contributions. As Ms Sparks said, the sixth C, cyberbullying, is a huge challenge for us as well and it is something that we need to do a lot of work on and I know the media committee has done that. It is a challenge and it is something that came back to us at the last local elections. We need to challenge it, to call it out at every possibility and to legislate for it. That is what is coming down the tracks and if we want the representation from everybody, that is where we need to go with this. The challenge for me on this is town councils versus municipal districts, as has been said by Senator Casey. I am challenged to hear the different views that are here on what is working and what is not working. That is where we need to go as a committee to see what is best for this report. I still remain to be convinced that town councils were the best solution and as I see it, municipal districts have not worked either. That is a debate we can have in the future.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I welcome everyone here today and I always love to come in to listen to representatives of local government and councillors throughout the country. With regard to a comment made about Independents and how they do not bring on women in politics, this year I was allocated funding to support independent women and minority groups in politics. I held a number of training sessions throughout the country with women and a number of them were from minority backgrounds. I was involved in mentoring about 60 candidates throughout the country and 13 of them got elected. There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes that people might not be aware of with regards to independent politics.

I am a firm believer in meritocracy; I really am. I have a team of women myself. We have three female Independent councillors on my team but it takes hard work for a woman to get elected. A lot of women do not realise the amount of work that it actually takes. They go into this naïvely at the very beginning thinking they will put their name on a ticket and because they are women, they will get elected. It is hard work being a public representative and people have to wake up to that fact. Just because you are a woman does not necessarily mean you are going to get that number one vote. It takes work and if you are not prepared to do it, whether you be male or female, the public is not going to get behind you and that is the reality of it.

A lot of work needs to be done. Yes, more women need to be promoted but more minority groups need to be promoted as well. I thank the Green Party, as there was a young man running down in Cork who I wish to mention today. I watched Honore Kamegni's campaign and I was egging him on from the get go. The hatred and the comments he received online were absolutely appalling. I commend him on his campaign, as he was a very positive light in a sea of darkness out there for minority candidates and I thank him today for being a beacon of hope for other candidates from minority groups around the country.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone who came and participated today. There are not too many opportunities where political operatives from across the sphere, from elected representatives to general secretaries to people from academia, come together in a room for a number of hours and have a discussion. Maybe if we did it more and had that enlightened discourse, it would help the process. As Mr. Sheehan mentioned, there is unfortunately a lack of civility in our debates. Can I start on the word Mr. Moylan used and that was "trust", in particular central government's potential lack of trust in local government. I would not necessarily disagree with Mr. Moylan, but why? Touching on Councillor Shannon's point in terms of decisions that were not taken in the past, in particular in large areas of waste plans, county plans and so forth; I worked on several county plans and there were some guys who would have zoned a lake if they could have. We then had a scenario where the Office of the Planning Regulator was established and then there is another layer.

The trust worked both ways. That trust is coming back and there is a sense of trust from central government, where we see a divesting of financial resources in the form of billions of euro through the URDF funding for councils to administer to regenerate their areas.

Many contributors have spoken to that, from Councillor Ryan's point about the municipal districts to Mr. Dorgan's point about that layer of town councils. I am a strong advocate for town councils but not in the guise in which they were. I set that out when I was local government spokesperson in the previous term. Mr. Sparks from the Labour Party mentioned Deputy Howlin's Bill. I tabled a Bill myself a year prior to that, in 2017, and that remains on the books in committee in that respect. We set out the manner in which it could be done because, as the point was made, we have moved. Mr. Kelly made a point about 80 town councils representing 14%. The population boundaries they represented were far greater than the administrative boundaries because they had not changed over the 100 years. It was not a fair reflection. Through national planning policy, we have urbanised this country, especially in the past 20 years. Towns are not about just the people who live in them. They are a shared urban space for those who come in to do business and for civic events, and they are greater than just the streets they make up.

On the points made about online abuse, this is something on which, through my work on the online media Bill and in the media committee, we have had several engagements with the social media companies. The manner in which they do their business now, in using AI technology rather than human beings in analysing online hate, is not catching much of what is happening. There has to be further engagement from all arms of the Government in respect of this because if there is not, we will be entering a very dangerous space. We cannot ignore the reality that the companies exists, but the manner in which we do our business with them has to change.

Equally, and this applies to local government members but, in particular, to national politicians, not a whole lot of people in here can hold their head up high when it comes to discourse on social media. That is a lesson for politicians as well, because some of what comes out of here, from these Houses, online is just as damaging as that which is directed our way. A bit of leadership in here would not go amiss.

In respect of the points Mr. O’Brien from Sinn Féin made regarding public engagement and those statistics on the decreasing level of voters, it is worrying and it is happening in other countries. We saw the turnout in the UK elections last week. Equally, and this is something I study, there is a point about the membership of political parties. In the UK in the 1950s, there was a thriving sense of membership of political parties, where the Conservative Party had 2.8 million members and the Labour Party 1 million. Today, the Conservatives have 172,000 members. It is a stark decline in our public process and it is something all the general secretaries, I am sure, will take on board as we try to re-engage with the public.

I again thank the witnesses. Of all the sessions, today has been the most enlightening. I thank them for their time, for their effort and for the contributions they have made. For the Cathaoirleach, the rapporteurs or the members, it has been very worthwhile.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I join the rapporteur in again thanking all the witnesses on this, the 125th anniversary of democracy in Ireland. We are looking forward but we are glancing back, learning the lessons and trying to apply them, along with all the contributions we have heard over recent months, to put forward recommendations and endorse ones that have been made, hoping those recommendations will be included by political parties in their election manifestos and thereon in a programme for Government that will address the issues that have been raised. I thank everyone very much for being here.