Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy James O'Connor. Everyone is very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we start, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Olivia Somers, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with representatives of the Road Safety Authority, RSA - it is their first attendance at the Committee of Public Accounts - to examine the RSA's 2022 financial statements. We are joined by the following representatives of the RSA: Mr. Sam Waide, chief executive officer; Mr. Brendan Walsh, chief operations officer; Mr. Michael Rowland, director of research, standards and assurance; Ms Kim Colhoun, director of finance and corporate services; Ms Nessa Kelly, director of strategy, performance and transformation; and Ms Sarah O'Connor, director of partnerships and external affairs. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Transport: Dr. Keith Walsh, assistant secretary; and Mr. Tomás Campbell, principal officer. They are all very welcome.

I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Road Safety Authority is a statutory public body established pursuant to the Road Safety Authority Act 2006. The authority’s core mission is to save lives and prevent injuries by helping to reduce the number and severity of collisions on Irish roads. The authority has four core lines of business which are the issuing of driving licences and learner driver permits; driver knowledge and competence testing; vehicle testing of passenger and commercial vehicles; and influencing the behaviour of road users through road safety advertising campaigns, promotion, education, awareness-raising and research.

The 2022 financial statements indicate the authority had income of just over €100 million in the year. This was up from €87.8 million in 2021 and represented the authority’s recovery to pre-Covid income levels. Almost all of the authority’s income is generated from fees and charges in respect of the services it provides. In 2022, this included €34.5 million of driver licence fee income and €16.9 million of driver testing fee income. On the vehicle testing side, the authority raised €16.4 million from the testing of commercial vehicles and €25.9 million from national car test, NCT, operations. It should be noted that the NCT is outsourced to a private sector operator, which had a gross turnover of €72.3 million in the year. The authority’s NCT levy income of just under €26 million from the operator in 2022 was down from €27.5 million in 2021 due to a lower number of tests completed and absorption by the authority of a cost indexation impact. The Road Safety Authority received funding of just under €1 million from the Vote for transport in 2022.

The Road Safety Authority incurred expenditure of €95 million in 2022, resulting in a surplus of €5.1 million for the year. The 2021 financial statements received a clear audit opinion. Without qualifying that opinion, I drew attention to non-compliant procurement to the value of €1.75 million in the year.

Members may wish to note that the 2022 financial statements were certified on 26 June 2023. The authority’s financial statements for 2023 have just been certified by me, and will be presented to the Oireachtas Library in due course. Separately, my office is currently undertaking an examination of the driver testing service. This was designed as an update of a previous special report published by my office in 2009 focused on the economy, timeliness and consistency of the testing service. I expect to report on that work in a further special report in due course

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the Chair and Deputies. First, I would like to confirm for the public record that the RSA or I would not refuse to appear before a committee and I apologise if there was any confusion or misinterpretation by members.

I thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak to them today on the Road Safety Authority’s financial statements for 2022 and on a range of topics. Today we will discuss numbers and statistics but at the RSA we are always aware we are talking about tragic loss of life on our roads, life-changing injuries, bereaved families and communities across the country.

In 2022, the RSA received a clean audit opinion from the Office of Comptroller and Auditor General. The total expenditure incurred in that year was €95.4 million. As the RSA has operated as a predominantly self-financing entity since 2014, this expenditure was covered by revenue of €95.8 million generated from the various fees and levies for key services, including the NCT, National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, and commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing, CVRT.

The annual Exchequer allocation via the Department's Vote represents less than 1% of total income. Given the wide remit of the RSA, this expenditure was utilised in key areas such as the operation of the public services, with over 700,000 full licences issued, over 244,000 learner permits issued, over 180,000 driving tests offered and over 2 million cars tested via the NCT. In addition to road safety promotion, awareness, education, enforcement and research, there was investment in other priorities and strategic priorities, especially for the RSA to deliver our own objectives, but also actions the RSA has within the Government's road safety strategy.

I wish to discuss some of the key trends we have seen to date in 2024. Tragically, as of 25 June 2024, there had been 90 fatalities on our roads and there was another one in the last 24 hours. This is an 11% increase in road deaths against this time last year, in addition to over 560 serious injuries in the year to date. In our detailed submission we have highlighted some of the initiatives the RSA undertook in 2023 and has carried into this year to address the current trend. These include an additional €3 million expenditure in 2024 for ongoing radio and digital audio campaigns relating especially to mobile phone use while driving and people taking drugs while driving.

In recent years, the Covid pandemic in particular has created challenges for the NCT service. In quarter 3 of 2022, Applus, which is the provider, has not met some service level agreements, SLAs, and the RSA has applied service credits in line with the terms of the contract. We continue to do so within the agreement. I am pleased to inform the committee that the service is close to returning to the SLA of 12 days for booking a test. The current average time is 13 days. In addition, the number of customers on the priority waiting list for the NCT has reduced from a high point of over 65,000 in February 2023 to just over 6,700 as of the end of May 2024.

With driving tests at unprecedented levels of demand since Covid, at the end August 2023, the waiting time for a driver test was 30.4 weeks. With additional driver testers in place, new scheduling technology and our staff’s commitment to work overtime, including weekends, we have seen a reduction in the waiting time to just over 15 weeks as of the end of May. Our objective is to return the service to the SLA of ten weeks for a driving test. The RSA, with the Department's support, continues to operate the service within the current staffing sanction while the longer term requirements for the service are being assessed. The driver licence service currently is processing 57% of our licensing applications through our online facility and 98% of customers receive their licence within five days.

I am pleased to confirm we have successfully concluded our consultation with the Data Protection Commission, DPC, and secured agreement to advance the necessary legislative amendments to support the sharing of collision data with multiple agencies. This positive outcome is the result of months of dedicated work and extensive collaboration with key organisations to resolve data protection issues and address the DPC's previous queries and concerns. We have just received the ministerial order in that regard and we can discuss that further. Concurrently, the Department is advancing that aspect, including the sharing of full data sets with local authorities. We anticipate that being in place in due course. For the sake of clarity, local authorities had previously received and continue to receive analysis on high collision locations for the national road network. That was through Transport Infrastructure Ireland and the Department of Transport.

In summary, we are deeply concerned about the high level of fatalities and serious injuries to date this year and previously. We require collective actions from the RSA and relevant agencies, parties, stakeholders and communities to achieve this. My staff and I are fully committed to reducing fatalities and serious injuries on our road to vision zero. We acknowledge that reversing the trends of the last two years must be a priority and it will be a challenge. As a society we have done it before, and we can do it again collectively.

The RSA was established in 2006 and there has been a significant reduction since. There were 365 fatalities in 2006 and that figure had reduced to 192 in 2014. In 2021, we achieved one of our lowest numbers of road deaths, at 134. The trajectory of road deaths was steadily in decline until 2022, the Covid pandemic, the return of the full economy and the many things that have come with that, which I hope we can discuss. We in the RSA are calling this out and raising awareness of the concerning evidence of non-compliance by road users - killer behaviours - and the need for enhanced enforcement by An Garda Síochána. Fortunately, thanks to the support of Ministers and the Taoiseach, we have allocated additional spend on campaigns and media awareness. An Garda Síochána has engaged in additional enforcement, including fixed-camera locations, which will be implemented and rolled out this year. These will be transformative in terms of deterrence.

Reducing road deaths requires an all-of-government approach and commitment. It is our primary mission and we remain committed to achieving the ambitious targets set out in the Government's road safety strategy. I am joined by my executive colleagues and we look forward to a constructive discussion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Waide. Our first member to speak will be Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. The RSA officials are very welcome. I ask that they keep their responses short because I have a number of questions to get in and we all have limited time.

I thank them for their briefing note which is very useful. Page 10 provides information on the cost. I accept the point made about how the number one issue is the tragic loss of life, but the officials have given us some figures in the briefing note. In cold monetary terms the cost of a fatal collision is estimated at €3.4 million. That was a 2022 figure. A serious injury collision was estimated at €385,000 and the financial cost of road traffic collisions in Ireland was estimated at €1.39 billion for that year. Apart from the life-changing injuries and the tragedy for the families, in cold monetary terms it makes the case for paying close attention to this.

Some of the other information the officials have given relates to the days of the week we are most likely to see fatal accidents happening, which is between Friday and Sunday. The prevalence in rural areas is greater than it is in urban areas, at seven out of ten. There is a lot of very useful information in the briefing. It is against that backdrop that I put my questions.

There was a 72% increase in the road safety programme expenditure. Despite this increase, road fatalities have gone up. Does Mr. Waide think that funding is being targeted appropriately? What metrics does the RSA use for its advertising campaigns? Does it use advertising metrics such as the reach of the advertising and the number of people who have viewed it or does are they based on improvements in the sense of a reduction in fatal and very serious accidents?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. I will be brief and will also ask my colleague to provide part of the answer. The Deputy is correct that part of our expenditure, as set out in the submission, is spent on delivering services. Our costs have gone up because the demand for all our key services has increased, meaning our costs are going to increase.

I will focus on the Deputy's question on expenditure on the campaigns and their effectiveness. As the CEO, I brought it to my executive team's attention that we needed to measure the effectiveness of those campaigns.

I will ask my colleague, Ms O'Connor, to give an example of how we measure the effectiveness of a particular campaign.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

We ran a campaign just before Christmas. I can use that as an example and tease it out, if that is helpful.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I ask Ms O'Connor to be very brief.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I can be very brief. We carry out two pieces of analysis. One is a post-campaign analysis, which is done in the immediate weeks following a campaign. It tells us the number of eyeballs that will be on a campaign, or what we call impressions. It will tell us how many people clicked on a link and watched a video through to the end. That is one piece of analysis we do. We do a secondary piece of analysis, where we work with IPSOS on tracking research in the months after a campaign. We look at how many people, unprompted, said they saw the ad. If people said they saw a particular ad, and say they definitely saw it, we then ask them how many times they saw it. We dig into whether the ad made them more likely to slow down, pay more attention or prompt a conversation with family and friends. We have tracked that over the course of the past decade, not only within a campaign but how a campaign performed against particular best-in-practice campaigns that we have run in the past. That is the structure we have at the moment. We also look at the bigger trends with the work Mr. Rowland's research team does.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is also important to note that in the past 18 months, the number of road fatalities involving young people, in particular, have doubled. Mr. Rowland has the trends to hand. We prioritised specific campaigns aimed at young persons. We have taken a fundamental shift in how to engage with particular cohorts in campaigns.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand ad campaigns can be effective. Unfortunately, road fatalities have increased following those campaigns. We have to question where we put our resources, in terms of whether enforcement plays a greater role. That is an issue for the Garda. There are particular categories. For example, there were 11 fatal crashes in 2023 involving learner drivers. That was a dramatic increase.

Repeated permits are an issue. There has been a commitment to having a requirement for people to have a test. If somebody can repeatedly get a learner permit without doing a test, that may well be a contributory factor to fatalities. What are the plans of the Road Safety Authority in that regard?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank Deputy Murphy. As a society and Road Safety Authority, we believe that the issue of multiple learner permits needs to be addressed. I have been consistent in my organisation about addressing this. It is the right thing to do. To answer the Deputy's question, it has been discussed at the partnership board, which includes the Department of Transport and our colleagues here today, as well as other agencies. It is a ministerial priority to address multiple learner permits.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is outside of what the Road Safety Authority can do, essentially. It is down to-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

No, we are working with the Department of Transport to address the matter. I would like to give a fuller answer. Mr. Walsh has a project in place to deliver that ministerial priority. I will pass over to him.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will ask a parliamentary question on that. I do not have the time to address it now. It is illegal to drive unaccompanied on a learner permit, yet people arrive unaccompanied to NCT centres, for example. What is the Road Safety Authority doing about that? What can it do about that?

Mr. Sam Waide:

What I have done and can do is continually highlight with An Garda Síochána the need to enforce that particular aspect of the law.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Garda is being asked to enforce that. People arrive to Road Safety Authority centres. Do staff ring the Garda? Are people advised that they should not arrive unaccompanied? Is the Road Safety Authority taking a particular initiative in this regard?

Mr. Sam Waide:

When someone arrives unaccompanied, we highlight that to the individual. We have examples of that. I would like to provide an example to give the committee an assurance that we are doing something about it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will stop there because I want to use my time for the questions I want to ask, rather than winding my time down in a way that I do not find satisfactory.

I refer to the metrics I described earlier. The Road Safety Authority referred to the lack of sharing of information and the issue with the data commissioner, as well as due course. Does Mr. Waide have any idea of a ballpark idea of what we are talking about in terms of what the term "due course" means? There used to be a system whereby a CT68 form was filled out when there was a collision, even those involving material damage to vehicles. That information was mapped by local authorities. A cost-benefit analysis was done in respect of road improvements. The absence of that information in local authorities by virtue of the fact that the information has not been shared has, I presume, had a direct impact on their ability to put a cost-benefit analysis forward for improving roads where there are repeated high level of accidents, injuries and fatalities. When Mr. Waide talks about due course, what is the ballpark? Is legislation required? Will that information be shared? What timeline are we talking about?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will pass that matter to the Department of Transport. The Deputy is correct; legislation is required.

Mr. Keith Walsh:

As Mr. Waide said, a ministerial order was signed last week that permits the Road Safety Authority to receive data from the Garda on collisions. The Garda collects that information and shares it with the Road Safety Authority. That ministerial order will also allow the Road Safety Authority to share the collisions data to local authorities. However, another piece of legislation is required to allow local authorities to receive and process that information in accordance with GDPR. For the final piece to allow the local authorities do that, we need to make a change to the Roads Act 1993. We are very keen to bring this forward as quickly as possible. We will bring a proposal to our Ministers to bring a memo to Government to start drafting that legislation. It will be a short and targeted Bill that we hope will be passed as quickly as possible by the Oireachtas.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Walsh expect that to happen within the lifetime of this Government?

Mr. Keith Walsh:

I do not know what the lifetime of this Government is, but we will progress it as quickly as we can.

I will make a brief additional comment. The Deputy is correct in that there is concern that local authorities do not have access to full data, but local authorities continue to have access to analysis provided by the Department of Transport for locations in their localities. This year alone, a programme of work has been approved and funded for 261 projects across all local authorities for roads improvements. That is based on a combination of the Department's analysis that has been feed to local authorities and local knowledge of local authorities about what is going on in their areas. Notwithstanding the data flow issues, a lot of work is being done based on what is available.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to go back to the multiple learner permit issue. This may well be the responsibility of the Department because ministerial priorities have not been followed up on. Multiple learner permits is one such issue, as is a review of the driving test curriculum. What relationship is there between the Department and Road Safety Authority in terms of progressing those issues? Are there issues regarding the adequacy of staffing to focus on those areas?

Mr. Keith Walsh:

We have a very good, active and engaged relationship with the Road Safety Authority. On the driver curriculum review, for example, a number of very detailed workshops have been held to scope out what the driver curriculum review should look like.

On the multiple learner permit issue, the position is slightly different. The policy decision has effectively been made. There is an action in the RSA. The Department, together with the RSA, would have agreed on the change that we wanted to make in the legislation. The implementation of that is what we are working through now.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Over 6,000 learners failed to show up for scheduled tests in 2023. They continue to renew their permits. I am not in favour of increasing the price of testing. The most important thing is that we get people tested and that they are not driving on learner permits. Has the RSA a strategy for the slots that are wasted and making the system more efficient?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

On the number of people who do not show up, let me put the number the Deputy quoted, 6,000, into context. This year, we forecast that we will deliver around 270,000 tests. Therefore, 6,000, as a percentage, is quite low, although it is a concern. Over the past 12 months, we have introduced a series of new technological advances within the testing service that have brought our utilisation of available slots up from 94% to 98%. Where somebody chooses not to attend at test or where we have advance notice that somebody cannot attend, we put it back into the system immediately to allow somebody to log on immediately to avail it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can the RSA identify if the same people keep failing to show up? Is the system flexible enough to identify that?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As Dr. Walsh has already referred to, we have engaged in several scoping sessions on multiple learner permits. That is one of the angles we are taking a really good look at. If we see repeat offenders, we want to target them. We are well advanced regarding how we can set out the mechanism for delivering the action on multiple learner permits. My team has actually prepared a proposal, which it will discuss with the Department of Transport in the next week or so, on how to make progress on this. One component is to try to target repeat offenders. The Deputy is correct that if they are not turning up and using that to their advantage to renew their permits, it is wrong and has to be dealt with by us.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Reference was made to post-campaign analysis of whether a campaign has succeeded and resulted in value for money. Is it just post-campaign analysis that is done or are there key performance indicators concerning, for example, the level of seatbelt wearing? Are they available for public scrutiny?

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

Mr. Rowland’s team, on the research side of things, analyses a wealth of important data in that regard. The indicators are measured and reported on at European level so we can track how we compare at that level. If the Deputy is interested, Mr. Rowland can take her through those. If any of the measures are off kilter, we ask whether we need to invest in an ad in the space in question and whether the ad we have is good enough. We ask whether the tracking tells us the ad has been working, or whether it has perhaps decayed such that people are not absorbing it in the same way anymore, meaning we might need to do something new. Then we decide on the ad we are going to invest in, brief the agency and do the tracking from there. We examine not only our analysis but also what is happening behaviourally.

The Deputy may be aware from the Safe and Sober Seminar, which Mr. Rowland’s team ran in January, that we are very concerned about the slippage in terms of alcohol levels. From 2019 until now, we have seen peer acceptability of drink-driving rise by 10%. That is very serious and a very big societal shift. Therefore, even though our ad, involving Gillian and her son Ciarán, is amazing and performs very strongly, we believe we need another piece in the conversation regarding alcohol. Part of the funding we have agreed with the Department for later this year is to create a new alcohol ad. It is not a case of using the same ad all the time as one might need something different for a different audience. You go from there. That is the kind of sophistication we bring. At an overarching level, we have a new communications strategy that helps us to identify the top-ten topics, and those are really led by the research, through which Mr. Rowland’s team tells us what it is worried about and the concerns so we can build from there.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would imagine the same applies to drug driving at this stage.

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, Ms O’Connor has seen an increase in that.

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

The Medical Bureau of Road Safety has informed us about what it is seeing at trend level. It is capturing more drug tests from the Garda. Young people caught under the influence of drugs are more drugged and often under the influence of multiple drugs. That is of great concern. We are not happy that the drug ads we have at the moment are good enough, and that is why there is a new one coming in December. We have had extensive conversations with the Department because we really believed we needed that. I suppose-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A new ad is not coming until December.

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

In December.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there not a sense of urgency about this?

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

There is, but it takes about three months from the get-go to briefing and production. It is not instantaneous.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest urgency.

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

I agree.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How is seatbelt-wearing gauged? Is there a way of gauging whether a seatbelt campaign has worked or got through to the public?

Ms Sarah O’Connor:

There are two components. The first is determining how many people saw the campaign, clicked on the link or listened through to the end of the Spotify ad or whatever they were listening to. Then we ascertain whether people talked to themselves, their friends or family and whether they were more likely to remind somebody else to put a seatbelt on. Then it probably moves over to Mr. Rowland’s overarching piece. His team tracks this year in, year out.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Before we hand over to Mr. Rowland, may I say that this is one of the killer behaviours? Unfortunately, Mr. Rowland and his team in the RSA have flagged an increase in non-seatbelt-wearing. It is extremely concerning. I will pass over to Mr. Rowland to give more detail on it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could he be very brief and furnish the committee with information on monitoring over the years, on success and failure, and what works and does not?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

We will do that. On seatbelt-wearing, we do observational surveys whereby we go out to the roadsides and observe. We have seen a decline in the driver seatbelt-wearing rate of 4% and in the passenger seatbelt-wearing rate of 5%. These statistics were recorded in our 2023 observational survey. In addition, between 2019 and 2023, 23% of driver fatalities and 21% of passenger fatalities involved individuals who were not wearing a seatbelt at the time of the collision. This is very concerning. I am referring to people who were killed or injured.

There is a high wearing rate. The wearing rate among the general population is over 90%, but the people who are being killed and seriously injured are not wearing their seatbelts, as I referred to.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could we be furnished with that information? Those are very interesting statistics. Obviously, Mr. Rowland will continue to monitor the trend and consider means of getting the message out even more.

I want to move on to driver testing. On average, the waiting time for a driver test is 14 weeks to 16 weeks. Among the reasons given for this are a reduced workforce owing to staff retirements and contracted staff reaching the end dates of their contracts. Why would the contracts not be automatically renewed, given the outcry about the waiting times for driving tests? Is there a reason the contracts are not indefinite? What percentage are renewed and what is the reason for contracts not being renewed?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will answer that question briefly. We can provide more detail. In the RSA, we have 130 permanent driver testers.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have all that information. Could Mr. Waide just answer the specific questions, please?

Mr. Sam Waide:

On the Deputy’s question on why contracts are temporary, we received sanction from the Department of Transport to recruit temporary driver testers.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the RSA not have permanent ones?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We have 130 permanent testers but we also have over 30 temporary testers. There was a campaign run to recruit driver testers, but we could recruit only temporary driver testers because that was the sanction.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Department allowed only temporary ones.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I have said consistently at transport committee meetings that we have a public service that has stable demand, increasing demand.

That is why we are in discussions with the Department.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Have the Department and the Minister not budged on that as yet?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We are in discussions. I will pass over to the Department. We have submitted a business case for permanent driver testers.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of the contracts that have not been renewed, what is the reason they have not automatically been renewed, given the shortage and also that the testers have been doing the work for years and, therefore, also have experience?

Mr. Sam Waide:

As an authority, we would love to retain those individuals but we cannot do so because we need to follow the rules and the law. We cannot retain those individuals.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Waide saying the Department does not even allow the authority renew an existing contract once it comes to an end?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We are not permitted to do so by law.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That seems ridiculous altogether. That is something to take up with the Minister. As time is of the essence, I will raise another matter.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

Sorry, I think-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will let Dr. Walsh answer.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will if I am given extended time.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

Briefly, there are matters of employment law here in terms of how many years a person can be on a contract as well.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If someone applies to renew the contract and is quite happy in the job, is Dr. Walsh saying they are not allowed to have the contract renewed?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

Up to a certain point, they can.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not fairly insane, given the waiting lists the length and breadth of the State?

I want to move on to another issue - the apt term would be "another farce". People in Drogheda believe the RSA has deemed Drogheda not suitable for a driving test centre. It is the largest town in Ireland with a population of 45,000. Currently, under a northern environs plan, we are preparing for an increase in population of 20,000 in the next five years. This has been going on for six years, during which we got continuous reports. This is a farce. There were 14 sites inspected, according to the RSA. Of those 14 sites, seven were deemed not suitable but no reason was given. In other sites, traffic was given as the reason for not allowing a centre at them. In another one, speed ramps were the reason.

Most people think this beyond insane and are questioning whether the RSA has the capability of seeking an adequate test centre, whether to rent or whatever. I looked through some of the information there. The authority is renting rooms and offices the length and breadth of the country, but Drogheda, the largest town, has been waiting six years for a centre.

Can Mr. Waide give me an example of where he would say with a straight face that a build-up of traffic is a reason not to provide a driving test centre in any town or village in Ireland? I am not aware of anywhere that is traffic free. Traffic is the norm 24-7. For six years, the RSA has been saying it cannot provide a driving test centre in this particular site because there is traffic or there are speed ramps down the road and has listed seven sites as not suitable without giving a reason. Does the RSA the capability? Is Mr. Waide telling me the RSA does not have the capability to source a driving test centre for the largest town in Ireland? How long more does Mr. Waide reckon we will have to wait for the RSA to get its act together?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We are fully committed to provide-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Stop. If I hearing that again. We are six years on.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on a second. Please give the Deputy a concise answer.

Mr. Sam Waide:

-----a driving test service in Drogheda. Mr. Walsh will give the specific reasons and challenges. We as an authority are as frustrated as others are. Let us give the details.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Walsh give me an answer? Is the problem premises? Is it a problem with the road layout? Just give me a concise answer.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Let me answer as quickly as I can. Deputy Munster has written to me on several occasions on this matter. I can assure the Deputy that, last week, I sat with my team again to look at where we have issues around test centres. We are working with the OPW to try to find a permanent location for the people of Drogheda. It is a town I know very well and visit quite frequently.

In relation to travel, the quickest answer on that is if we cannot treat everybody who is doing a test the same way, we may disadvantage people who are sitting in a very large traffic build-up, maybe for a long period of time. That would mean the subsequent test-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the case in Dublin every day.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

For the Dublin area, the tests take place on the outer part of the city. What we are doing with Drogheda is we are working with the OPW. I have looked at numerous sites in my own personal time to try to find a resolution to this. The Deputy is right. Drogheda is the biggest town in Ireland and we need to have a test centre there. We are working with the OPW and we will try to find a way.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am glad to hear that but Mr. Walsh can understand the frustration of the people of Drogheda six years on.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Absolutely, I can.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is he seriously saying there is not an office or a building in Drogheda that is suitable? I pass them every day of the week. The RSA has offices and buildings right around the country.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is not just the building. It is where we can build the route from to allow the test to take place in a fair manner for everybody. I would welcome support from the Deputy in this area.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh is tasked with doing this and I have constantly been in touch with him to express sheer frustration.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh is tasked with providing a driving test centre.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I would recommend that we continue to work together to try to find a way to get a test centre in the town of Drogheda.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Walsh would keep the Deputy updated on that, I would appreciate it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would appreciate it if he could update me on the most recent developments. He said he was looking at something. Was that yesterday?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We were looking last week. My driving testing team meets as a collective group. We go through all of the various test centres where we may have issues. We looked at this. Our facilities manager is engaging with the OPW on a continuing basis to try to find a site. I would appreciate Deputy Munster's input on this as well. We really would like to work with the Deputy on this.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Walsh. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the RSA for taking the time to attend. I am glad Mr. Waide provided clarity as regards the RSA's openness to attend the committee. The initial response may have struck the wrong tone and was probably ill judged. I am very glad to see the RSA appear before the Committee of Public Accounts today.

I put the following questions against the backdrop of a fatality in Waterford overnight, of which Mr. Waide will be aware. A teenager lost his life and another young man is fighting for his life, perhaps two miles from my family home. We have a context where we have yet another family grieving and yet another family praying for a good hospital outcome for their child. That provides a sobering context for the questions I will put today.

This is an obvious question but there are questions that follow. Is there a correlation between total car journeys and total car collisions?

Mr. Sam Waide:

On the headline reasons for collisions, there is an increasing risk. There is an increase in cars in Ireland. There is an unprecedented increase in driving licences in Ireland. That results in an increased risk of collisions.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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To cut through, increased car journeys correlates with increased car collisions.

Mr. Sam Waide:

If I may, I will also say, in a positive way, that there is an increase in active travel.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am coming to that.

Mr. Sam Waide:

That is an area that we as a society need to address.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is one in which the RSA has a particular role.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Action 41 of the action plan on road safety strategy is to encourage modal shift to support environmental, safety and health objectives by promoting the use of sustainable and active modes of travel. The lead on this is the Department of Transport but also the sport agency, NTA, Irish Rail, Bus Éireann and the RSA. How much money has the RSA assigned to campaigns that encourage modal shift?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will ask Ms O'Connor to give a sense of the campaigns. If we do not have the information on how much that was in euro, we can certainly provide it.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Under that action, the Department leads out on the Your Journey Counts campaign. That is led by the Department and it is its funding. We have supported that in a number of ways by sharing all of those assets.

We consider it important that a sub-message in many of our campaigns is about promoting modal shift. That is how we have built it in to the new communications strategy. The Your Journey Counts campaign, which is one of the principal pieces of that action, has been led by the Department financially. That was in conjunction with us but also in terms of discussion to make sure that our piece is the solid road safety piece and that the modal shift piece is led by the Department so that there is no confusion between the two.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The witnesses will know where I am going with this in that they know I have an opinion on where we place the blame for collisions that involve particularly vulnerable road users. Even though we have gone backwards in the past couple of years, since 2006 we have made improvements with regard to the number of deaths on the roads. We have not seen improvements with pedestrians, however. There has been no improvement at all for pedestrians.

Excuse me, there is a reduction in pedestrians. It is with cyclists that there is no change at all. Our progress is not uniform. We are not doing as well on vulnerable road users.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Deputy-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I want to return to something my colleague, Deputy Steven Matthews, put to the witnesses at a transport committee meeting about submissions on road safety interventions. At that meeting, it was stated that the RSA had not made any submissions, either on section 38 or Part 8 planning matters. Why?

Mr. Sam Waide:

When the RSA is asked to put forward a view on any policy or consultation, we will submit our road safety view.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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That does not really wash in that these are public consultations. I could point Mr. Waide to many schemes with regard to the weight of the authority of the RSA if the RSA had come in. I believe Ms O'Connor stated in subsequent interviews that they did not want to make submissions on road safety interventions because the RSA did not want to be political. This astounds me. It could be a school street, a cycle lane, a permeability measure or whatever. Let us say it is a school street. If there was a submission made from the RSA that said - it need not necessarily be this specific school street in this specific context - international research shows us that school streets result in better health outcomes for children, that would be significant in the context of the decision being made, either on a Part 8 or a section 38, if that has been discussed in front of a council. However, the RSA has not made any such submissions on any of these. Is that correct?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I accept that RSA has, in the past, made submissions to consultations and I accept-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Has RSA made submissions on section 38 or Part 8 consultations?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Rowland, because he knows previous and current submissions we have made in respect of different consultations. More importantly, we share the international research with other agencies around the partnership board, NTA, TII-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We are talking around the point here. Is it correct that the RSA has not made submissions on Part 8s or section 38s?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

We have made submissions. With regard to the previous committee meeting and Part 8, sometimes the correspondence that comes to us does not identify that is a Part 8. Whenever we are asked to make a submission, we make a submission.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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What expertise is there within the RSA to make that submission? Are transport engineers on staff? When a submission is made, who makes that submission and what-----

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The point I made when this question was asked previously was that we are not road safety engineers. We do not have road safety engineers.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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You are the Road Safety Authority.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes but-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Is Mr. Rowland telling me that the Road Safety Authority does not have any road safety engineers on staff?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes, I am. Our role is education and awareness.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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No, it is not. It goes far beyond that. In fact, the Road Safety Authority Act 2006 refers to, “the promotion of public awareness of road safety and of measures, including the advancement of education, relating to the promotion of the safe use of roads, including co-operation with local authorities and other persons in this regard”. Its remit should include that. I am gobsmacked that the RSA does not have a road safety engineer on staff.

I have a short time and I have many questions, some of which hopefully I will get to on a second round. I wish to return to this idea of where we place blame. In 2022, 394,350 hi-vis materials were distributed. What was the cost for that? What was the cost for close to 400,000 hi-vis pieces?

Ms Kim Colhoun:

It cost €755,000.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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What is the cost-benefit analysis the RSA runs on that?

Ms Kim Colhoun:

I will pass to Ms O'Connor.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Regarding hi-vis materials, we purchase materials for a number of different road user groups - motorcyclists, cyclists, pedestrians, adults and children.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I understand.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

The procurement that surrounds that is all done under specialist procurement agreements. From a value-for-money point of view, it is absolutely guaranteed.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Value for money and a cost-benefit analysis are two different things. I understand that hi-vis materials are relatively cheap. Some €750,000 is not a great deal of money. Hi-vis is relatively cheap. We can go down the road and buy it in any shop. We can pick up a hi-vis vest. I am asking about the cost-benefit analysis. A lot of work goes work into putting hi-vis vests very often on young children, down to toddlers. What is the cost-benefit analysis in terms of what road safety outcomes are delivered by putting hi-vis material on the back of a four-year-old?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

We are led by research in this regard. I have referenced some of the research before when speaking about this is. For example, when it comes to the ETSC, its indications are that if somebody is not wearing a high-visibility vest, either a pedestrian or cyclist, they can be seen at 30 m. With high visibility, they can be seen at 150 m.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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During the night or during low-light conditions.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Yes, absolutely.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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How many four-year-olds are out walking at night-time?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

There is a challenge here. I see crèches and schools all the time having their kids out together collectively in hi-vis materials. Schools and crèches do that to protect themselves and feel like they are doing everything right in that space. However, that is not our advice. Our advice is about low-light conditions and night-time.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I think that is victim-blaming, to be quite honest, because of where responsibility is placed. I believe the going to school booklet is still live on the RSA website.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

It is.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It begins with dodgy research. It states that research shows that children aged under 12 should not cross roads on their own. In fact, the research points to those under ten years old. It has conflated-----

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Actually we just had a PhD presentation-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have the FOI that-----

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

We can provide the Deputy with the PhD presentation we had in recent weeks.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have the FOI on the research it was based on and it was ten-year-olds.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

We actually followed up on it yesterday with further research.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The second point it states is that children should wear high-visibility clothing when out walking. That firmly and squarely places the blame on parents and young children. We should be engineering our roads so it is safe for our children to walk to school.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

We should be doing all of those things. High-visibility material can play a role and can be very important. For young children-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Taking into account that it is quite cheap to do, what cost-benefit analysis is done on the hi-vis expenditure? It has an impact on where blame is apportioned for road collisions. Is there an underpinning cost-benefit analysis?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Please come in briefly. I want to move on.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I absolutely agree with the final point the Deputy made. As a system and as a country, we need to re-engineer our roads. I absolutely agree on that final point he made. Our departmental colleagues are with us. I agree with that point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is Deputy English's first committee meeting. He is very welcome.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I hope it will not be my last.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is here for a good while yet.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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So I am told. I have a couple of questions to put to the team. If they are not answerable today, I am happy to take them again. I will might come back in if there is a second round of questions.

I compliment the delivery of driver's licence applications and the changes there. Mr. Waide touched on it earlier. There was a delivery of four or five days. I got mine in two days - appointment booked and licence done. This proves that when we focus on something, we can do it. I met with a very helpful person. I spent an hour of my time and left with the licence. This can be compared with a couple a years ago, when we had to go through misery on behalf of our constituents to get them an appointment to get a licence. It shows that when there is a focus and an effort, we can deal with it.

I am still hearing “post Covid” and “pre-Covid”. We need to move on from excuses about Covid. I hear it everywhere I go; it is still Covid this and Covid that. We have had enough years to recover and catch up in most cases. I am glad that the driver's test waiting time is down to 15 weeks, and I hope we get down to ten soon. When young people are willing to take the test, get involved and are interested in driving, we should be able to respond to their requests, certainly when it comes to those who are trying to work. I know certain classes of worker can be prioritised but in the past some people could not engage in education or work because they could not get a licence and, therefore, I am glad. I hope the effort can be kept up on that, go beyond the ten weeks and drive it down even further. Even ten weeks is not acceptable.

On that, do we have data to compare with other countries? What is the norm across Europe when it comes to waiting time for a test? Applicants are not guaranteed a licence if they take a test.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I recently attended a conference of our European and global colleagues and many of them are seeing the same trend we have seen, where there is a significant demand. That demand is being driven by the simple fact of population growth in Europe, predominantly whether it is through migrant workers or natural population increases. It is a challenge. We engage with our colleagues in the UK as well and they told us the same thing. We have made significant inroads over the past two years to try to manage the service.

The number of applications we saw in 2023 versus 2022 was up 14%. In the year to date, it is up 10%. Our testing capability over the 2022 to 2023 period increased by 11.6%. This year, it is up 30% on last year. We are starting to turn the curve, but we still have much more work to do. From the number of people who are applying for learner permits or on their essential driver training journeys, we can see there are more people in the pipeline. We are working with the Department on ensuring that we have a properly resourced service to meet the needs of a growing population.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That was my point. If we can see the common trends, I presume a request has to be made for the resources to manage those and upscale the various teams. I appreciate Mr. Walsh’s reply.

During Covid, a decision was made that vehicles did not need to have NCTs or CVRTs in order to be taxed. That requirement never returned. If they do not need it to be taxed, is there a link with vehicles not being tested? Is it intended to restore the requirement? I dealt with someone recently whose vehicle was impounded because it had not been tested. It was right that it was impounded, but people used to get a warning every so often about not being able to tax their cars if they did not have them tested. There were warnings built into the system. Will that link be restored or is it gone forever?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The service for the NCT is pretty much back to where it needs to be. My team and I have sat down over the past number of weeks and started considering what the next five years will look like, what we will need to do and what changes we will need to make. This is one of the changes we need to consider. We are also considering simple matters like the dental appointment approach, whereby someone who goes to a dentist gets another appointment for a year’s time. In this way, someone would know when he or she should be coming in for an NCT. A reminder might also be sent. We want to try to find ways to ensure that what has happened never happens again. Linking motor tax to the NCT could be one measure we consider, but there will be a suite of other measures as well. My priority is to ensure that people can get NCTs when they want them.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Fair enough.

I am interested in the science behind the ads that are made for, and with, the RSA. Ms O’Connor spoke about the great deal of research that has been done to judge the impact of those ads. We had this conversation many years ago. Lotto ads are successful. They convince us all that we will win the lotto with “It could be you”, so we all go out and do it. Those ads get through to people, but when I speak to any young person, he or she does not believe it will be him or her in the accident. Young people believe it will never happen to them. On the other hand, they will buy lotto tickets and back horses because they expect to win.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

A positivity bias.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Is that analsyed? Attitude is a major issue. We can do all we can in terms of enforcement, but there has been a serious change in attitude in many parts of our lives in recent years. I will not say why, but since that dreaded occasion, people’s attitudes have slipped backwards where road safety is concerned but not where other issues are concerned. Is there science behind this? Who engages in putting the ad campaigns together?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I will say something and then hand over to Ms O’Connor. The development of our ads is informed by our research and what our observational surveys are telling us. For example, the Deputy will have seen our campaigns targeting seatbelt wearing. The development of the ads is psychology-led. We look at people’s thinking and how to get the message across to the particular road user we are concerned about. Everything we do is evidence-based. We examine the database and the research, and that information is then handed over to Ms O’Connor’s team for developing the ad.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

When we are trying to develop a new ad, we hold focus groups with a target audience to try to ensure we understand what is going on. In April, we held focus groups with young men in rural Ireland who had been driving or had their licences for approximately two years, which is the point at which people come off their novice plates. We can see greater risks being taken then because people are confident and believe they are good drivers. Focus groups can be instrumental in that they are insight-driven by the people in them and can inform not just the specific campaign, which was to do with rural speeding in this case, but other work as well. For example, one of the young men said that he knew his local roads so well, he knew what was coming around the corner and did not need to worry. He said he even knew what cars would be on that road. We will have two brand new radio ads this week. One is called “Speed is a serial killer” and the other is about Darren and Jim. Both ads point out that people do not know what is around the corner. The young person’s positivity bias in believing he or she will win the lotto – fair dues to the young person if that happens – extends to not believing he or she will be hurt or hurt someone in a collision.

Down the years, we have learned that messages about serious injury can land more with young men than messages about fatalities. They may feel that is more likely. Over the past 12 months, we have spent a significant money and effort on talking about Ms Imogen Cotter’s ad, which tries to convey what serious injury means. We have reused Ms Siobhán O’Brien’s ad, which had not been used in eight years, to convey the experience of having an acquired brain injury and what that has meant for her and her life. We held a conference on serious injuries last October. This is about building up the messaging.

There is no one intervention or ad that works. It is about the spectrum and having the interventions and ads at the right level for the right audience. Young people think very differently about road safety. They do not necessarily like us being the authority, so we have to find ways to slip into their heads that are slightly different than what would be traditional or normal. They do not want to be given out to, and this is what makes them difficult. Internally in the office, we call them “pistachios”, in that they are hard nuts to find and hard nuts to crack. We spend a great deal of money targeting them and trying to do things differently online to capture their attention. When preparing this morning, for example, I looked at the “30k” campaign. It was interesting. We carried out a wide spectrum of social advertising with that ad. I had to fight hard because there was a funny bit in the ad where the pigeon appeared. Everyone said it was too funny and would not work, but looking at what worked on Meta and TikTok, the ad that young people clicked on and watched through to the very end was the one with the pigeon. There are times when we have to rely on humour or different approaches to our messaging to get it over the line. This has been an important lesson. It involves us being a bit braver and saying it is not only about the scary ad option, but also victim testimonial ads, which are profoundly powerful. Ms Cotter’s ad has really performed, particularly when we have used it during sporting events over the past six or nine weeks to bring home the reality of collision.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O’Connor.

I wish to raise three issues about schools, although I would be happy to get the responses at the end of the meeting.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There will be a second round anyway.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The RSA is involved in the promotion of road safety around schools. How involved is it with schools? Is that at primary, secondary or third level? Where does the RSA mainly focus and from where is the best benefit derived? Much more can be done in this regard. We cannot expect schools to do everything and there is a role for the RSA. I presume it is engaging with them. What has been the feedback from them?

Road safety outside schools is an issue that we encounter a great deal as public representatives. We are always discussing it with local authorities and the Department of Education, but someone needs to take charge of and lead this conversation. Solving a road safety issue outside the school is being left up to the poor principal.

While I am on the topic of schools, there is an issue with school bus drivers. Over-70s cannot drive school buses on behalf of Bus Éireann, but they can come back in half an hour later and drive the same kids to a football match or a private outing. Who is responsible for this or where does the issue lie, and how do we solve it?

I can get the answers to these questions after the meeting if the Chair wishes to move on. I do not mind.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses might take them now, please.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Regarding education, engineering and enforcement, I have stated consistently in my time in this post that road safety should be part of the national curriculum. We have worked positively with schools and we have had a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Foley, about refreshing the transition year curriculum, but I remain firm in my belief that we should have road safety as part of the national curriculum, as that would carry through for life.

Could the Deputy clarify his question about buses?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is an issue that is often raised with Deputies, as there is a demand for buses and bus drivers. Our understanding is that people cannot drive with Bus Éireann if they are aged over 70, yet they can return to the same schools at 9.30 a.m. and drive the same kids in the same buses to football matches on private contracts. They just cannot do the school runs.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will pass over to the Department to address the issue of policy.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Has the RSA a role in that rule?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

We can revert to the Deputy with more detail after the meeting, but there is no legal barrier, as far as I am aware, to over-70s driving school buses. My understanding is that it is a Bus Éireann policy.

I am sure it has a research basis for that policy.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is my question. I want to understand the science behind it.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Mr. Rowland answered about RSA's role and, in particular, the research aspect.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It concerns the national office of traffic medicine and Professor Desmond O’Neill’s advice. It is my understanding that what Professor O'Neill said that drivers who are over the age of 70 can self-regulate when they are driving their cars. They can choose to go out or not to go out when it is dark. They can choose not to go out when there are adverse weather conditions. That is different from driving professionally or driving a bus, where you cannot make those choices and you have to go out and drive. There are more complex driving manoeuvres when driving a bus. There is also the added dimension of carrying children and others on the bus. It is for that reason. Bus Éireann makes its own decisions in relation to that. Professor O'Neill is the person who advises on this and it is my understanding that he may have had discussions with Bus Éireann about this particular matter.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know I am over time, but could Mr. Rowland furnish us with Professor O'Neill's advice or guidance? I thought it was the RSA which-----

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I will.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that point, does the same advice not counter the information about going to a football match a half an hour later? I refer to situations where the same driver is employed privately.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

All we can do is provide the advice of Professor O'Neill.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are only implementing the policy.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Verona Murphy-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the RSA have a view on this?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The view is the medical advice that was given by Professor O'Neill.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please forward that to the committee.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Clearly Mr. Rowland did not tune into the last discussion we had about this with the Department of Transport. I will go to Mr. Walsh and maybe Mr. Rowland will be better informed after this. The criteria for the medical in the NDLS for professional drivers was extended to the age of 75. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The medical for all drivers-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The requirement for a medical is now 75 years of age.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

That is for all drivers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who advises on that? Contrary to what Professor O'Neill would say, we now have a situation where one cannot drive a school bus under a Bus Éireann tender at the age of 70 because of Professor O'Neill's advice, yet, somebody told the RSA that it was okay to extend the medical to the age of 75.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I can only go on-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can only go on the number of deaths on the road. That is why the RSA here: to give us answers about why that is happening. We have a situation where we cannot get bus drivers under the Bus Éireann tender. I received a text today that states there are 110 pupils going from Kilmore to Wexford. We will have at least 60 extra cars on the road for the want of two bus drivers. Mr. Rowland is in the Road Safety Authority, so does he not have an opinion on that? Ms O'Connor has told us that the idea was to offer a modal shift, but we cannot because of this rubbish that goes on with contradictions in terms. Can Mr. Rowland tell me how that contradiction has arisen? It is not on medical grounds. The medical evidence is that people over the age of 70 are far more competent drivers.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

That relates to people who are over the age of 70 and who are driving their own cars. Driving a school bus-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not talking about cars.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Well-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The medical pertains to driving a bus.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just give the witness the chance to answer.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on now, Chair. Do not run down the clock on me with rubbish. I put a question about school buses. We are not talking about cars.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will get a concise answer for you. Mr. Rowland, please.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The advice from Professor O’Neill is that driving a car and driving a bus are two different tasks.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did you not understand the question? The question is not about what Professor O’Neill advised. It is about why we have a medical at the age of 75. Who advised that?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It is my understanding that Professor O’Neill from the national office of traffic medicine advocated for that.

Mr. Sam Waide:

That is advice that was given to the RSA. We can and will commit to getting a second and third opinion in terms of clinical medical advice.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why have you not committed to doing that already? Why have you appeared here to be told that? Have you not recognised that contradiction up to now?

Mr. Sam Waide:

You have raised the issue and I will take it away. This is-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, I have been raising this for ten years and it is only in the last three years that the RSA has increased the medical to the age of 75. It was since Covid.

Mr. Sam Waide:

On this day, in this committee room, I am committing to seeking second and third opinions-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you believe-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

-----because I am not-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you believe it is a contradiction?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I am not a clinician. There is no clinician in the Road Safety Authority.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Common sense would dictate that there is something, apart from the fact that it is Bus Éireann’s policy, which is a Department of Transport issue.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Bus Éireann sits in the partnership board-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You can fudge away but the reality here is that we could have two bus drivers taking 110 children to school or we can have 100 cars on the road. Mr. Waide’s objective should be the two bus drivers. It is not up to me to come up with a solution. Mr. Waide is being paid the big salary as the chief executive of the RSA to reduce road deaths. Primary to that is putting in a modal shift, as Ms O’Connor put it, from the perspective of road safety and, particularly, when it comes to our children.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I have committed-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Your review will take far too long. This subject has been on the cards for ten years. It is Mr. Waide’s first time before the committee in five years. I have written to the Road Safety Authority several times but I have never gotten a response, email-wise-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

I am sorry. First, I have committed to that action. On the latter point the Deputy has made, she has written to the RSA on 35 occasions and seven of those were in 2024, and the RSA has responded.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are different matters. I referred to you.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I am happy to share my contact details with the Deputy and I have committed to that action on the bus drivers-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do I have the incorrect details? How many emails did you personally receive from me?

Mr. Sam Waide:

To my email address?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Sam Waide:

None. I have checked.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well, that is fine. I will forward them to you again.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I am very happy to share my details with the Deputy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As far as I am concerned, I have the details, but I certainly have not received a response, but I will take that. That could be a simple IT issue.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the Deputy.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I have a point of clarification. All professional drivers have to medical every five years.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has been extended to the age of 75. I am fully aware of that. What I am saying is that the compulsory medical has been extended. It has gone from the age of 75 from 70.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is for category B licence holders. If you are passenger car driver you need to have a medical certificate from the age of 75 and above if you are driving a vehicle of any sort.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not talking about that. We are talking about the age of 70 here now.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

From the age of 70 you get a free licence. There is a requirement under a category B licence to have a medical certificate if you are above the age of 75. I think the issue we have been discussing here is related to commercial vehicles and these are two separate issues.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Drivers of commercial vehicles who are over the age of 70 would require a medical annually. It is now extended so that it must happen annually, when one is aged 75, then turns 76, then 77, etc. That is the point I am making.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

No, it is not.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well, that is what the legislation says. It has increased to 75 years of age.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is 75 years of age for a category B licence.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the witness to submit that in writing so that we can check the legislation again.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Okay.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The other question I have regarding road safety is about the IRHA, which is the only licensed representative organisation for HGVs in the country. How many times has Ms O'Connor or the RSA met with it as stakeholders?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I participate in road haulage meetings when the topics relate to my directorate. I believe my colleague was due to meet with it approximately ten days ago-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, how many times have you met with the Irish Road Haulage Association for engagement on your advertisements, programmes, marketing, etc.?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I have not specifically met with it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have never met with it. It is the only representative organisation in the country and you have never met with it to engage on how operators of articulated vehicles and HGVs operate on our roads here in Ireland. Did Ms O'Connor not say that she is putting the campaigns together?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

That is correct, in terms of drivers who drive for work. We have not been in a position to create a new-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is not a matter of driving for work. This is road safety.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Absolutely, but it specifically pertains to people who are driving for work. We are planning a new campaign this year which will take place on the radio and we would like to engage. I think there are further plans for next year which will specifically be for those who drive for work.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long has Ms O'Connor been in the role?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Eighteen months.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many times has Mr. Waide met the Irish Road Haulage Association?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I met it in the first year of my role. It was an engagement regarding the development of the Government's road safety strategy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who was the president at the time?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Eugene.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Drennan.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I subsequently met the association. My colleague, Mr. Walsh, met its representatives about a year ago, I think. It is important-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

Will the Deputy allow me to answer the question?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long has Mr. Waide been in the role? I ask the questions.

Mr. Sam Waide:

May I answer the question?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The question I asked is how many times-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on a second. Will Mr. Waide answer briefly? I have to allow the witnesses to answer.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked the question-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. Waide answer briefly? Deputy Murphy asked the question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many times-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will Chair the debate. Mr. Waide to answer, please.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I also met members of the IRHA for different reasons. I met them about technology in commercial vehicles in a positive way. I met them on a number of occasions, for example, members who provide the CVRT service. Most recently, I attended a company that is opening a new test centre. I-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are not stakeholders. That is a commercial activity. Somebody opening a CVRT centre is not a representative of the IRHA.

Mr. Sam Waide:

They are stakeholders in road safety. That is why I met them.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked about the IRHA, which is a stakeholder.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I answered that question, I believe.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked Mr. Waide how many times he met-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

At least twice.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long has Mr. Waide been in the role?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Three-and-a-half years.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

His predecessor had quarterly meetings - four a year.

Mr. Sam Waide:

We do. As an organisation, we-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. The CEO, Mr. Waide's predecessor.

Mr. Sam Waide:

As an organisation, we meet the IRHA quarterly.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is only one representative organisation. It is important.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is important to confirm on the public record that the RSA meets the IRHA quarterly, at a minimum. There is ongoing engagement outside of those quarterly meetings.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I should hope so. I will be back in, Chair.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for joining us today for an important conversation. Will Mr. Waide outline again what percentage of the income accruing to the RSA arises from driver licensing, vehicle testing and vehicle certification? I know he did in his earlier submission.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Of the 98% revenue, the large majority comes from key services such as NCT, driver licensing and CVRT. Three figures jump out in that split. Ms Colhoun may wish to comment.

Ms Kim Colhoun:

Is the Deputy looking for the percentages?

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Waide said 98%.

Ms Kim Colhoun:

I think Mr. Waide was referring to €95 million in 2022, 36% of which related to driver licensing. It was an exceptionally high year for driver licensing because of the roll-over of licences over the Covid period. Some 27% related to NCT, 17% to the CVRT testing levy and 18% to driver testing. That left 2% for the rest of our miscellaneous income.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that 2% funding from the State?

Ms Kim Colhoun:

No. Our funding from the State is less than 1% of our overall total revenue.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that basis, the vast majority of the RSA's income accrues from the activities mentioned. People lose their lives on our roads and are injured to a serious extent which impacts them for the rest of their lives. Does Mr. Waide not see a conflict of interest? Is it not the case that the more drivers and cars on our roads, the more income accrues to the very authority responsible for maintaining safety on our roads? Is that not a crucial conflict of interest?

Mr. Sam Waide:

On the question of conflict of interest, one of the RSA's statutory obligations is to provide assurance that vehicles on the road are roadworthy. Hence, we provide the NCT service through a third party and CVRT testing of commercial vehicles. It is not a conflict; it is a demand. Whatever the number of vehicles, we need, for the purposes and benefits of road safety, to make sure those vehicles are safe. We deliver that service. If that demand halved next year or the following year, our costs would reduce exponentially because of the level of activity.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is at the heart of the work of the RSA? What is the remit of the Road Safety Authority?

Mr. Sam Waide:

There are three areas. The first is research and information-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the point of the research?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I ask the Deputy to let me answer his question - what is the purpose of the RSA. The purpose----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why does the RSA exist?

Mr. Sam Waide:

To provide a statutory obligation to provide research to inform policy in transport, particularly roads. Second, to make sure-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the RSA exist to keep our roads safe?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I ask the Deputy to let me answer the question. Second is to ensure that vehicles comply with vehicle and safety standards. Third is to administer the driver education system. Those are the three basic, fundamental purposes of the RSA.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the purpose of those three fundamentals? What is the ultimate aim of the RSA?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Those are three aspects.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the point of those three aspects? Why did Mr. Waide outline them in particular?

Mr. Sam Waide:

To enhance road safety.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To make our roads safer.

Mr. Sam Waide:

To enhance road safety.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough; that is fine. What is the greatest cause of the undermining of road safety in Ireland and across the world? Why are our roads unsafe?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I stated earlier that there is unprecedented deterioration of behaviours on our roads. There is-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On whose part?

Mr. Sam Waide:

There is an increase in vehicles and an increase in risk. If the number of vehicles increases, that is outside of my control. It is my job and the job of my organisation to make sure those vehicles are safe.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Waide does not see the RSA as having any role in working towards a reduction in the number of cars on our roads.

Mr. Sam Waide:

We can and should have a bigger role. The RSA-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Bearing in mind, they are the very thing that makes our roads unsafe.

Mr. Sam Waide:

A review is being conducted of the RSA currently. I look forward to its recommendations. A Deputy made a point made earlier about what the RSA should do. I advocate the RSA having a role in road safety which may differ from what it is currently. I cannot pre-empt an independent review of the RSA.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is my problem. It is not the fault of Mr. Waide nor any of his colleagues who work with him. The very raison d'être of the Road Safety Authority is being called into question. Its sole function should be to make our roads safer. Yet, when Mr. Waide is questioned in this committee and on RTÉ, he lists out all of its other responsibilities, which are onerous. When he was asked by Miriam O'Callaghan on 11 April if the RSA was fit for purpose, his answer was that it was fit for purpose in delivering services - the NCT and driver testing services. That is the real problem. Anybody can deliver those services. The Department of Transport could deliver them or outsource their delivery. The sole focus of Mr. Waide and his colleagues should be to keep our roads safe to ensure there is not day after day of tragic news of people losing their lives and getting life-changing injuries. Unfortunately, their focus is in a plethora of different directions, trying to ensure they juggle these balls every day. The people here from the Department of Transport and all of us as Oireachtas representatives need to question the raison d'être of the RSA and how we can divest it of those other responsibilities.

Then the authority can focus on what should be its key ambition, namely, that when we get up in the morning and open the newspaper we are not seeing those tragic stories day after day and week after week.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I could not agree more with the Deputy that getting up in the morning-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Waide saying he wants to see the RSA divested of all its other responsibilities?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I cannot pre-empt an independent review. I can only speak for myself. I live and breathe road safety, but I cannot-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not questioning that.

Mr. Sam Waide:

-----make other agencies do things that are outside my statutory remit.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That leads me to the next question. I agree with Mr. Waide that he cannot do that. He does not have the legislative power or resources. The review is under way, but I have been arguing for the last year or so that we really need to explore the establishment of a road safety commissioner. The authority's chairperson, Liz O'Donnell, was asked by Claire Byrne on 14 March whether there would be merit in looking at the establishment of a road safety commissioner. Her response was "there is some merit in it" and that "it would be better if we had more powers to bring all those actors [in the road safety space] onto the one page". She said she "would like to see a more all-of-government approach, real commitment if we are going to reverse this trend". Would Mr. Waide like to see the establishment of a road safety commissioner with the legislative power and resources to really begin the work of making Ireland's roads safer?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I have worked with other EU member states and there are different models. The review of RSA includes, I believe, looking at those different models. I am here for road safety. I am here for the people-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Waide have an opinion on that?

Mr. Sam Waide:

-----who I have met, the victims and their frustration at all the many different moving parts. There are a lot of different moving parts. I am not going to pre-empt. Do I have a view on an independent commissioner? Whatever the model is, we need to fund road safety in this country adequately. Whatever the model, whatever the entity or organisation and whatever the remit, it needs to be funded adequately from an education, enforcement, campaigns and communications point of view. That is my opinion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask a question before we take a break. Obviously, the commissioner decision will be a policy issue. What is the timeline for the conclusion of the review of the RSA?

Mr. Sam Waide:

The Cathaoirleach might let the Department answer that question.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

I will very briefly give the background to this. As members probably know, the Department and the RSA agreed late last year to conduct a review of the RSA. We felt it was timely. The RSA is up and running nearly 20 years now and has had additional functions added to its remit in that time. We were also planning a new RSA amendment Bill to make certain changes to legislation and we thought a review would be useful to feed into that. The review is under way. There are five-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but when will it conclude? I am interested in solutions, Dr. Walsh.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

We have received some very preliminary findings from Indecon, which is doing the review, in the last few days and we are considering those. Our Minister of State up to yesterday, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, gave a commitment to bring the preliminary findings to Government before the summer recess, so that is what we are going to do. The final report will be completed and presented probably in July or August. We will then go to Government with a memorandum for decision in the autumn.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There will be an Aire nua, a new Minister.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

A new Minister may have new views, of course. Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Walsh. We will take a ten-minute break.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In his opening statement Mr. Waide said the RSA is calling out and raising awareness of concerning evidence of non-compliance by road users and the need for enhanced enforcement by An Garda Síochána. Is there an issue with enforcement? Is there frustration in the RSA that the Garda is not doing as much as it should be doing on road safety? The Garda Commissioner recently issued a directive that all gardaí do half an hour of road duty per shift. What is happening there? I ask Mr. Waide to outline it briefly.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The enhanced enforcement goes back to the trends not only of collisions, serious injuries and fatalities but also the trends of increased population in the country and the increased number of vehicles. This requires enhanced enforcement, as it requires enhanced education.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question is whether there is frustration or concern within the RSA that more could be done by An Garda Síochána in terms of enforcement. It is a "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Sam Waide:

There is frustration in regard to the pace of enforcement. Enforcement is not only about Garda officers. It is about the increased use of technology. The RSA works on enforcement with An Garda Síochána on the roadside with commercial vehicles. Our frustration is that we need more technology. We need more safety cameras. I welcome the Cathaoirleach's point about the 30-minute rule the Commissioner announced. I welcome it because it has helped.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It has helped.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Absolutely. It will take time to see different outcomes with regard to road safety. I believe professionally, and I have confidence that-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am on the road a good bit and I regularly see gardaí.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The increased number of cameras will have a positive effect on behaviour on the roads.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is increased visibility of gardaí. I can see it since gardaí have begun to do the half-hour of road safety work during their shift.

Mr. Sam Waide:

My ask to An Garda Síochána is that the increased enforcement is sustained, not only for the rest of this year but over the next three years for the road safety strategy.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The number of people on the roads checking Facebook to see where Mary or Johnny were last night, the number texting while driving and the number doing all sorts of things such as shaving or doing their hair while driving, particularly in the mornings, are absolutely incredible. What I see is shocking. That is apart from crazy driving with people changing over three lanes without indicating or swerving in and out between cars. The reason I highlight this is that I appreciate the Garda has stepped up what it is doing, and that is welcome, but the emphasis on road safety policing must be stepped up a gear. That is crucial. Mobile phone use while driving is massive, as is doing other things while driving. I want to highlight that.

On speed limits, we have a default position of 80 km/h when we go off the national network. That is absolutely ludicrous. People learning to drive are always told to drive according to the road conditions. This means not driving at 80 km/h on a boreen. Common sense kicks in. I want to cut to my question on speed limits. Is setting speed limits a job for county councillors? That is a "Yes" or "No". Is it a job for the elected members of the local authority?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Local councils, with the Department of Transport.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Councillors feel they come in over their heads completely. Does this include national roads such as the N80 or regional routes?

On those national roads, it is not the councillors who decide. Who is it?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

It might be useful for my colleague, Mr. Campbell, to go through it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking for a brief response.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

There was a detailed speed limits review, which we are in the middle of implementing.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like this point clarified because the speed limit review is coming up.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

On the national roads, Transport Infrastructure Ireland sets the limit.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those are the 120 km/h and 100 km/h limits on motorways.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can the limit on some sections of the likes of the N80 be reduced to 80 km/h? The limit is 100 km/h the whole way along.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

The limit can be changed through by-laws.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who can make the change?

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

For a national road, Transport Infrastructure Ireland would set the by-laws. The defaults are set in the national-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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For the regional roads that run through all our counties, who sets the limits?

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

For the regional roads, it is the local authorities.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The elected members of the chamber would take advice from a roads engineer and the Garda.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are then free to set the limit as they see fit.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

They are free within parameters. In the Road Traffic Act 2004, there is a range of allowable limits. Under the Road Traffic Act 2024, the default limit on local roads, for example, is reduced to 60 km/h. That will be commenced in November. Local authorities have the ability to set by-laws that could impose limits of 30 km/h, 50 km/h or 80 km/h.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Certain sections of certain roads would need different limits. That is the point I am making. When will the speed limit reviews come before local authorities? When do the witnesses expect it to happen? It is important that this work is done.

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

The Local Government Management Agency is co-ordinating the work of all local authorities to do their individual speed limit reviews across the summer months and to bring proposals around by-laws to the elected members before November. That is the target.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department spoken to the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG?

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

Not that I am aware of.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. Campbell check that out and come back to the committee?

Mr. Tomás Campbell:

I will.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If the Department has not done so, why not? New councillors have been elected to important positions to make important decisions. It is important to contact the representative body. Managers are appointed for seven years. They come and go. The members who are elected by the public comprise the legal local authority. It is important that the AILG is contacted on this matter and asked for its input. I ask the witnesses to convey that point to their superiors. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. This issue is not unique to the Department of Transport but also applies to the Department of housing and all other Departments. It seems that the last people who are spoken to, contacted or made aware of anything are the elected councillors and their representative body, the AILG. I ask that the cathaoirleach of each council is informed that this change is coming up. It will be an important job for local authorities and we need councillors to be aware so they can identify roads in their areas where there are accident black spots or problems with speeding. They can liaise with the local gardaí and other bodies as they need to. They can also liaise with the local area engineer. The key people will be the area engineers and local councillors. I want to know. I thank Mr. Campbell.

I will move to driving tests. Why is there a six-month waiting list in Portlaoise? That was the figure in the most recent reply I received to a parliamentary question I asked about driving test waiting times. Why is that happening?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The Cathaoirleach asked about a specific centre in Portlaoise. I will be able to give him the exact number for Portlaoise in a moment.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That reply came a few months ago.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I have it here and will look for it as we are speaking.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Tell me.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I will find out the relevant figure. The national average has dropped from 30 weeks a couple of months ago to 15 weeks. I will furnish the specifics in respect of Portlaoise to the Chair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Walsh have the timeline there?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The Cathaoirleach is looking for the timeline for Portlaoise.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am. Does Mr. Walsh have it handy? Perhaps he could share it before the end of the meeting.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I will search for it and call out the relevant figure during the meeting.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How is the allocation of driving test slots prioritised? A number of people have contacted us to say they depend on their cars for work because they live 15 miles from their jobs and there is no public transport. There might be a Local Link bus that comes at 11 a.m. or 12 noon, which is fine and serves another cohort of people - mainly elderly people who are going shopping. People are depending on their cars for work. In rural towns, they might be driving to the county town, for example, Naas, or Kilkenny, Tullamore or wherever else. If a person who requires a licence for work can show that he or she lives a distance from work, does that give him or her any priority?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

No.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It does not.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It does not. I will answer the question on Portlaoise. The wait is currently 17 weeks, which is approximately three and a half months.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is a big jump.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is, but we need to do better.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will keep raising the issue.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Please do. The Cathaoirleach can continue to do so. We operate a transparent way of booking because hundreds of thousands of people need to go through a test on an annual basis. The fairest and most equitable way is to allow these individuals to go through a website and then wait for their invites. We have special conditions for front-line workers. They can fill in a form and we will try to prioritise them. I spoke earlier about the efficiencies we have introduced and they are always available to the members of the public. If, for example, my team gets 100 cancellations this week for whatever reason, those slots are immediately put into the system. I always say to people who are looking for a test to check the system daily because slots are added daily on the basis of cancellations.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh mentioned a forum if someone needs a licence for working reasons.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is for front-line workers, including gardaí and ambulance drivers.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is obviously a huge issue of concern. What is the RSA doing to reduce waiting times? Mr. Walsh has referred to no-shows, cancellations and vacant slots. That is one of the things the RSA is doing. What else is it doing to reduce waiting times?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As I mentioned, use of our slot levels is currently at 98%, which is a very high level and is up from where it was several years ago, which was a percentage in the mid-90s. We also have additional driving testers. There is also now a facility whereby customer can select a test centre. They can pick a test centre with a shorter waiting time if they so desire. That is what we are doing. To be honest, the way to deal with this is to employ more testers and we are working with our colleagues in the Department to do that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh mentioned that there are 130 staff.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

There are 131 permanent staff.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many agency staff or staff on short-term contracts are there?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

They are not agency staff.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are there contractors?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

They are employed as temporary staff. At the moment, there are approximately 34 or 35 such staff.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will turn to the representatives of the Department for a moment. What is the difficulty in getting sanction for more testers? There is a ridiculous situation in respect of experienced testers who finish their terms. What is the length of contracts that staff get? Are they one-year or five-year contracts?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

I think they are for two years.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

They are for two years.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Staff come in for two years. Perhaps these are people who worked in a school of motoring.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

Perhaps I may explain how we got to the current situation. In March 2023, we were coming out of the Covid-19 pandemic and there was quite a backlog in a number of the services, including driver testing. At that time, the RSA submitted a request to the Department looking for sanction to hire additional driver testers on temporary contracts. A number of options were presented in the RSA business case for 40, 60 or 75 additional testers. The Department considered the matter and agreed to sanction 75 additional tester posts. In conjunction with the 130 permanent testers, the RSA sanction is for 205 driver testers. That sanction is still in place. One of the conditions of the sanction was that we would work with the authority to work out the long-term need for the service.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The population is increasing.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

That is exactly the case.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why is the Department not giving sanction for more permanent testers? I do not get the logic.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

We gave sanction last year for up to 75 additional testers.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Those were temporary posts.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

We were asked for sanction for temporary posts. Asking for temporary testers last year was the right decision. There was a backlog in March last year but the idea was that if we got the testers in, we would be able to reduce the backlog. However, what has happened over the past year is that the demands on the service have continued to increase much faster than was projected.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many applicants are awaiting a test at the moment?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As of this morning, there are 80,000 people waiting for an invite.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are 80,000 people waiting and the officials have it in their hands to sanction permanent ones. I do not get it. Many who were on contract were let go, including in the midlands.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

From the Department's perspective, the authority has sanction to employ 205 testers right now, and that continues be the case. We have been working with the authority in the last few months to establish what is the long-term need for permanent testers. That analysis has been presented in the last few days and the Department is going to go through it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many are needed?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

We have not assessed the business case. That is what we need to look at. We need to assess that business case.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Roughly, how many? Is it 200 or 300?

Dr. Keith Walsh:

I would imagine it is probably around the 200 mark.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Walsh put a figure on the number of testers needed?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We provided a sliding scale based on population and based on what we would see into the future. We would certainly see a starting base of around 200 to be required.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is 200 permanent testers.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Yes, 200 permanent testers.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. We will go to a second round of questions. I call Deputy Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to focus on disqualified drivers. Something like 1,800 learners were disqualified in 2023 and only 3% of them surrendered their permit to the Road Safety Authority. From a parliamentary question reply, I discovered that only one driver out of the 10,000 who were disqualified in court in 2022 and 2023 was then convicted of not surrendering their licence. In the UK, for example, a driver does not leave the court without leaving their licence if they are disqualified. What recommendations is the Road Safety Authority making in that regard? Is this with the Department or is there an engagement between both bodies? Essentially, the whole idea of a disqualification is as much to make the roads safer as it is to punish the person who was disqualified.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I agree. This is an area that needs to be addressed. I know this has been flagged on a number of occasions, including by victims groups. I will pass over to the Department because there is an action in hand with the Department and An Garda Síochána.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

I agree it is unacceptable that people are not surrendering their licence and that is an offence. However, we need to be careful about the importance we attach to that. The real issue is whether people who are disqualified from driving are continuing to drive. If I am disqualified from driving, I know I am disqualified from driving and I know I should not be on the road, regardless of whether I have surrendered my licence or not. Even more importantly, the disqualification information comes into the Department and we share that with gardaí, so gardaí know if someone is on the road with a disqualified licence and they are able to-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We then come back to the level of enforcement and the data that the Road Safety Authority collects, for example, if somebody is detected as having been driving while disqualified. Data is going to be important. In the case of fatal accidents where people were driving unaccompanied with a learner permit in the last five years, does the Road Safety Authority separate out that information so it can look at it very distinctly? Is the information published with regard to the number of people injured, the circumstances of the accident and all of that kind of stuff?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will ask Mr. Rowland to outline the information we have.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

In 2023, 15 learner drivers were involved in fatal collisions. In these fatal collisions, a total of 15 people died, which includes six of the 15 learner drivers, and the nine other road users were four pedestrians, three passengers, one motorcyclist and one pedal cyclist. Five other road users were also seriously injured in these fatal collisions.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Thank you for that information. Information is going to be very important, in particular, how the Road Safety Authority is going to apply that information to reduce the number of fatalities.

To move to a different subject, what was the totality of fines for non-adherence to the NCT timelines applied to the company that was outsourced to do that job in the last couple of years?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

There are no fines or penalties. There are service credits, and that is how we refer to them from a contractual perspective.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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“Service credits” sounds very positive.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It does. It is a legal term because we are not allowed to apply penalties within a contract.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that how the contract is structured?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is the wording the contract was put together with. We were advised that the word “penalties” is not something that can be used. Service credits have the same, let us say, punitive effect. In the case of Applus+, which is the service provider, until the end of quarter 1 of 2023, for non-performance post the Covid era, we have leveraged €3.8 million in service credits against it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will move to another topic. In terms of defining the safety of roads, is it solely based on the absence of accidents and fatalities or does the Road Safety Authority look at it from the point of view that they may be used by, for example, children and vulnerable road users? What is the metric used? How does the Road Safety Authority determine that?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Fatalities, collisions and serious injuries are outcomes and those metrics are extremely important. As I said earlier, every loss of life is heartbreaking for the family involved. There are metrics for roads. I am not a road engineer. There are metrics as part of the road safety strategy and Mr. Rowland can answer with regard to the European position and the statistical performance indicators, SPIs.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I do know a little bit about this. I know about road design, the speed for each road and all the rest of it, and I know we have a lot of very old, small rural roads. I would ask the Road Safety Authority to add something on the speed limits. A few years ago, the national lower speed limit was set at 80 km/h to achieve consistency and the local authorities rushed out and bought a load of 80 km/h road signs. The councillors are supposed to have discretion over this but, in fact, they will be told they do not have the expertise to have discretion. As the Chair said, it is getting to the point that they are told they do not have the expertise and that the road engineer is the one who will determine it. Yet, they know their area and its roads very well. They will know where there is a sports centre or a lot of people arriving on foot, and know that an 80 km/h speed limit is inappropriate in that kind of location. They may also have a knowledge of accidents, near misses and so on. However, they do not really have discretion and they end up having rows over a road not being safe. To have this idea of consistency as opposed to actually measuring things, such as the type of user in a particular area, is to look at it from the point of view of a driver as opposed to the point of view of cyclists, pedestrians and so on. I am not convinced that has been properly evaluated.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will pass over to my colleague shortly. This is an important point for elected members, particularly newly elected members in local communities. One of the Deputies earlier flagged the increase in the number of pedestrian fatalities. I often walk along roads that do not have a footpath. The Road Safety Authority continues to provide research as to what is the impact. Some 29% of pedestrians struck by a vehicle travelling at 50 km/h will be killed. However, if the speed is reduced to 30 km/h, some 5% of pedestrians who are struck will be killed. We have provided and continue to provide the research to councils.

That is our role. The Department mentioned the speed review. We provide that research. That may not necessarily answer the Deputy's question on what level of monitoring is in place if a new speed limit is implemented.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A national speed limit was set and local authorities were supposed to comply with parameters and different types of roads. The speed limit of 80 km/h was routinely used. For example, where locations had a lower speed limit, that was to be increased to 80 km/h. I am not sure that it is-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I think the point is that there has to be realism this time and speed limits have to be appropriate at a local level. Councillors must be involved. They will take expert advice, whether that is from An Garda Síochána or a local area engineer, but the council chamber must have that discretion. When the RSA contacts the AILG this issue needs to be emphasised, so that it can make its membership aware of it. The AILG will determine what it needs in terms of running seminars and different events. It would be very important for the elected members if that happened.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I think there are training plans as part of the speed limit implementation working group.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but as Deputy Murphy said, many councillors will be told that speed limits are to be increased by this amount. It is important that councillors are made aware that this is their job.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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On that topic, I would be less worried about councillors varying the speed limit down and more worried about them varying it up. I suspect that will be the more problematic issue.

The basic metric in front of us is fatalities on the roads. That is a very important metric and one that we want to drive down. We have seen the number of fatalities decrease from 365 in 2006 to 181 last year, so there have been some losses and gains. What about collisions? I do not have a sense of the number of collisions on the roads. Is the reduction in fatalities due to a reduction in the number of collisions or an improvement in care safety over time? Has there been a reduction in collisions commensurate with the reduction in the number of fatalities or does better car safety mask a lack of progress?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I think it is both. There has been a reduction. In the better years, such as 2018 and 2021, when we had a reduction in the number of deaths on our roads, there was a reduction in the number of collisions. However, I believe the survivors, the people who have been seriously injured, are probably protected by the advances that have been made in vehicle safety.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I ask Mr. Rowland to furnish the committee with some details.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I will, yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The RSA's briefing note is very good and detailed but I could not see that information anywhere.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I will get back to the Deputy in relation to the number of collisions.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to talk about how accidents are reported. For example, if a middle-aged cyclist is knocked down on a road the report will state what the cyclist was doing, and the age and gender of the cyclist. The report would not tell me that the car was making a right-hand turn manoeuvre, passing through a bike lane or passing through a gap of stationary cars. It would not tell me anything about the bumper height of the car. In these reports we learn a lot about the victim and less about the other aspects involved, particularly in the asymmetric situation where it is a collision with a vulnerable road user.

The child casualty report by the RSA, published in October 2023, gives me a report on the gender, age and movement of the child but does not tell me other details such as the engine size of the car, the type of car or the driver's manoeuvre. The real problem with that is that we learn a lot about the victim and far less about the driver's manoeuvre, type of car, height of the bumper, engine size, etc. Are there plans to change the method of reporting?

Mr. Sam Waide:

The Deputy has asked a very relevant question. All of the data fields collected by members of An Garda Síochána at the collision scene are being extensively reviewed as part of the data group.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the RSA have a proactive input?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the RSA asked for more information on that?

Mr. Sam Waide:

The RSA chairs the multi-agency and multi-Department group. I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Kelly, who can provide insight into all of those variables of which there is a high number. We can provide it.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have an eye on the clock so I ask Ms Kelly to concentrate on the metrics the RSA is trying to include on, say, the driver's side in respect of an asymmetric collision involving a vulnerable road user.

Ms Nessa Kelly:

As Mr. Waide said, we have been working with the Garda to review the 161 data fields that are part of the road traffic collision data set. From that, there is lots of information where a vehicle was involved, in terms of what the vehicle was doing at the time. We receive those fields. We have agreed, through the review, from a data protection perspective what fields we can still receive. Those critical fields continue to be received by the Road Safety Authority. They then feed into our research teams. I ask Mr. Rowland to comment as it is his team that completes the analysis used to inform the research and outcome.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Perhaps the RSA can furnish us with a note. I do not mean to be rude but I only have one minute and 40 seconds to raise a couple of other issues. I am very interested in finding out what data fields are reported, what are the GDPR issues and how we can anonymise that information to better understand, particularly with an asymmetric collision, the movements of the person driving the two tonnes of steel.

Ms Nessa Kelly:

Yes, Deputy.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I want to return to the sharing of collision data. The issue arose in 2020. Did Mr. Walsh say a ministerial order was signed last week?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is amazing the things that happen the week before a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

There was a long process involved.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am sure there was. The coincidence always astounds me. The interim period lasted four years. When did the RSA bring this issue to the attention of the Department?

In respect of the legal process, we are talking about ministerial orders but there is a need for legislation. We have had several Bills brought through the Department of Transport, including a miscellaneous provisions Bill. This sounds exactly like a miscellaneous provision. At what stage did the RSA engage with the Department to discuss this issue? I ask because it feels like things started to move very quickly after the airing of a "Prime Time Investigates" programme.

Mr. Sam Waide:

On the collision data, the RSA first raised this matter with other agencies around the table in 2020. Again, I will pass over to Ms Kelly to confirm the key steps from then until now. It has been a complex and lengthy process and it has been frustrating in terms of the length of time it has taken.

Ms Nessa Kelly:

This has been a top priority for the RSA since we identified the issues around data protection with the collision data set. Once the matter came to light, we engaged straightaway with our legal advisers and the Department to identify our route to regularise and put the legal basis in place to be able to receive the data, first and foremost, because we receive it from the Garda, and then to be able to share it onwards with organisations like the local authorities, the NTA, etc. In 2020, we immediately set about that activity of identifying our route forward. We did not just say we need to hold back and wait until we see how we put the legal requirement in place. We also engaged with the Department's roads management support office and our colleagues in the local authorities to say this is critical data that they need to receive in order to be able to make evidence-based decisions on investment in road safety. We actually agreed eight critical data fields from within the data set that we would continue to share with the Department and local authorities, through the LGMA, in the intervening period while we put the legal basis in place. From 2020, to establish that basis, we engaged with the Garda and all stakeholders. We completed a thorough review of each of those 161 data fields. We looked at the proportionality of the data being shared because some of it was special category and personal data, and we then looked to see what legal basis we could establish. We engaged with-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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With the indulgence of the Chair, I would like to ask a final question. Members would be interested in seeing a timeline for the interactions around moving from establishing the problem to resolving it.

In respect of serious collision data, we had relied on the Garda Síochána and now, because of recommendations made by the European Commission, we are starting to take the serious injury data from hospitals, which I assume leads to a greater number of serious casualties being reported. How has that move impacted the €1.3 billion figure that was given for, I think, 2022? Have we underestimated the cost of serious collisions because of the change in methodology?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

We have two data sets on injuries. We are aware that serious injury reporting is understated, especially when we look at the Garda data. There are very good reasons for that. With the approval of the Department, we engaged with the Department of Health, the HSE and Trinity College Dublin to look at hospital inpatient inquiry data, which contemplates serious injuries in particular and medical diagnoses of serious injuries, in order that we could report on that. This tells us that many more serious injuries are happening than are actually reported using Garda-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Will Mr. Rowland put a percentage figure on that in terms of the difference in reporting using An Garda Síochána's figures and hospital figures? Are we talking about 20% or 50%?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Approaching twice as many serious injuries are occurring.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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So the figure of €1.39 billion could be a serious underestimate.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes, I would imagine it is because the serious injuries are based on Garda data. It is only in recent times that we have been able to get access to-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It could as much as twice as many.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes, it could be a lot more.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We are here to discuss the figures and the budget and to focus on the bang for our buck. It strikes me that we drive the roads every day, and none of us is a saint. The figures are going the wrong way. Given what we are seeing on the roads, it is amazing that the figures are not a great deal worse. The figures do not capture how serious this is. We are in a really difficult situation in light of the volume of traffic on our roads. Every day of the week, we all witness incidents that could have resulted in crashes. We still call most situations accidents but in my view, most of them are incidents because things are done wrong. They are not necessarily accidents. They are incidents where someone has done something wrong in most cases. The terms "incidents" might capture it better.

On the research and the data, certainly when there are crashes on some of our main roads, and where there was an option to take a different road, for example, a toll road, is there any analysis done as to why the vehicles were on that road at that moment? There are many crashes on the main national routes, be it someone coming up behind, someone not overtaking properly or when someone is turning left or right. The whole idea of building motorways was to make roads safer and have fewer left turns, right turns and so on. Do we analyse why a vehicle was on a particular road in some cases? This might lead us to believe that maybe we should look at our toll roads. I do not need an answer now, but it is something that would be worthwhile to understand to really get behind some of these accidents.

Mr. Walsh mentioned the ideal figure of 200 testers. I presume he is assuming that it is somewhere in the region of 170 to 190 permanent roles, plus some on contract as well. The numbers will go up and down a little but it is best to be in a situation where we can respond to demand. I do not want the witness to answer now as my time will be cut but perhaps he could keep it in mind.

On the dental appointment system, I always cancel my dentist appointment when the year comes up, so I am sure it would be the same with the NCT. I want to go back to the link between tax and insurance. As I understand it, if a person does not have the certificate of roadworthiness and is in an accident the insurance company might not insure and may claim that the person is not insured. Is that true or is it false? If that is the case it is an issue for all insured drivers on the road and for people who think they are insured but are not insured. With the motor tax system, surely to God it is an easier way to link it to tax and insurance in order to make us do it. We are all in danger of putting it off and I am sure I was as guilty as everybody else of putting off appointments when they come. If the witnesses have the magic formula perhaps they could enlighten me more on what they are thinking with an appointment system. I am interested in getting more information on it. It sounds as if we are working to a system but I would like to hear the thinking on that.

With regard to the advocacy role of the Road Safety Authority and its advice to the Government and everybody else, who is in charge of the drive to use technology better? Mr. Waide mentioned this at the start. I got a sense that he is disappointed that technology is not used to its capabilities in managing our roads and our cars. Who can drive that? I sense that Ireland as a country is a good test bed for technology in many cases. Are we missing out on opportunities that other countries are already using when it comes to making our cars safer? Is there more we could do legislatively?

With regard to buses, Dr. Walsh said that driver age is a decision for Bus Éireann. I did not know we had a national office for traffic medicine. This is news to me. Maybe we need to bring that person to the committee too. Is there any chance we could get a solution in respect of this matter before the new school year in September? Can somebody make a decision, because if it is the wrong decision to stop people-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There were four questions there. Will Deputy English ask Dr. Walsh to respond to the first and the last question on the school bus issue? Let us put this to bed.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

I will try as best I can. As I said earlier, there is a policy and there is legislation around the requirements for medical certificates. It is this policy and legislation that the RSA implements. Colleagues who know this better than I have talked earlier about what happens at the age of 75 and onwards. It is my firm understanding that it is Bus Éireann's policy to apply the cut-off of 70 years of age. I do not know but I assume they have very good reasons for that and they are doing that based on-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Should it not be on the advice of the RSA, Who is advising whom? That is all I need to know.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

The RSA implements whatever the legislation is. The RSA and the national office for traffic medicine would inform putting in place the legal requirements.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Walsh clarify if the traffic medicine office's Professor O'Neill, gives the advice? I do not want to personalise it for anybody but is it the case that the professor gives the advice on what we are all fit for at the age of 75?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The national office for traffic medicine is Professor-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where is that? What is that for?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The national office for traffic medicine resides within the RSA-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it part of the RSA?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It is funded by the RSA. The national-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the person who gives the advice an RSA employee?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It is an arrangement. It is a tendered contract-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a contract.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So it is RSA advice. Let us be clear.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It is RSA advice based on medical advice.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Rowland gave the impression that it was not the RSA. The RSA's advice is that someone over the age of 70 should not drive a bus.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The clinical advice provided by Professor O'Neill was that over 70s are at a greater risk-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I know that. I am not a medical person. I am not saying Professor O'Neill is right or wrong. I want to know who is making the decision. Where does the buck land? Is it the RSA and not the national office for traffic medicine?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The decision to not employ drivers over 70 rests with Bus Éireann. That is the company's policy.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Not on RSA advice.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

We do not instruct Bus Éireann on what to do. They get and interpret advice. We do not instruct them or tell them.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will move to the replies to the other questions.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will address the technology question.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Concisely please.

Mr. Sam Waide:

An Garda Síochána and the RSA want to use more technology. To answer the question on who makes the decision and who is taking the lead, I have consistently advocated for the use of more technology for road safety. An Garda Síochána would welcome being able to use safety cameras, including in the GoSafe vans at the side of the road, to pick up on people not wearing seat belts, which is killer behaviour, people using the mobile phones, which is killer behaviour, and people eating a McDonald's while driving, which is killer behaviour. It is all distraction. That technology is used in other EU member countries. I get frustrated when people say "Why are we not doing this here in Ireland?" I ask everyone here to back and support any legislative or regulatory changes to use that technology.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I note that, I appreciate that and I agree with it but what of in-car technology? Are we missing out on the use of technology in the vehicles?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could a meter reading be taken, for example?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will answer this question. It is a very important question and I want to answer it. The committee is made up of elected Members. This is the Committee of Public Accounts. Its members are elected representatives, and I am looking for support. I cannot do this on my own and the RSA cannot do it on its own.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does it need legislation?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Geofencing for speed is a game-changer. Sweden is one of the leading countries in western Europe and they are trialling geofencing for speed on buses in Stockholm. Rotterdam is are trialling geofencing for speed.

It will play a significant role in making our roads safer for road users, given people do not like getting penalty points. It is automating the speed and it will protect vulnerable road users and active travel people. I ask for support in that area.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that geofencing available on all roads?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Murphy has six minutes. Was Deputy's question answered fully?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. That is the question.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is being trialled in cities and there is a benefit in cities. It is used for-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is for the highly dense traffic areas where it is being trialled. It is not happening on rural roads.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is not, but it could be. I welcome and invite elected members. I need to go and see this for myself in Stockholm because whether it is in the Phoenix Park or on a rural road, my understanding is that geofencing comes from space and, I believe, from my limited understanding of it, it could be deployed not just in city centres.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to hog the meeting. Mr. Waide believes that and I sense he is right. My question was who is responsible for driving that? Is it the RSA, the Department or us? Who or where is the responsibility? Nobody has the answer.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the Department that makes the recommendation to the Minister or is it the RSA? How does this happen? The Deputy is trying to get the answer to that question.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

Part of this is that we would always take advice from the RSA on technical areas where it has the expertise. The Department may need to change legislation but there is also an EU element to a lot of this. For a lot of vehicle standards, the law actually comes from EU directives and regulations. That is why it is particularly interesting to hear about things that are happening in Sweden and other member states. I was in Belgium last week for a conference on self-driving cars and safety developments.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The RSA gives advice and the Department makes recommendations. If legislation is needed, the Department prepares that for the Minister. We are a bit clearer on that now.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There was the question about insurance and tax. I know I am being a bit of a nuisance but this is useful.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

In relation to insurance and tax, as I said, it will happen once we get the service back to normal. We have already started the process of looking at what we can do. I agree with the Deputy but I am not sure of the legislative basis or how we could bring that to the public. We did it with motor tax in the past and it is certainly something we should be revisiting. At the end of the day, we need to ensure that we have proper roadworthy vehicles on our roads. If there are ways to incentivise customers to keep those vehicles maintained and up to a good spec, I believe that would be a significant step towards our vision zero.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The question I asked is this: is your car insured if you do not have a certificate of roadworthiness?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As of this moment in time, yes, or that is my understanding, but it is up to the individual insurance company. The reality is that if someone is involved in an accident, through an investigation, that accident may not be deemed to be down to the roadworthiness of the vehicle but to the driver's actions within the vehicle. I imagine there are very grey areas in that space.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is up to the company.

Dr. Keith Walsh:

It is the requirement of a vehicle owner to keep their car in roadworthy condition at all times. The NCT certificate says that it is roadworthy at the point in time that the driver is required to have an NCT.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am thrilled that Dr. Walsh came up with that. It is the requirement of the car owner to keep it roadworthy. It is not the requirement of the Department of Transport, it seems, to keep the roads car-worthy. I would like Dr. Walsh to take that back to his line Minister. That is what I have been hearing on the doors for the last two months. Why do cars and other vehicles have to be roadworthy but roads do not have to be car-worthy? That is a significant issue for road safety. Does Mr. Waide agree?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I agree. One of the safe systems is safer roads.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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One of the aims of this committee concerns under-resourcing. I have had no correspondence from the RSA that tells me it would like more money - not one piece. We have clarified that I have the right correspondence details for you, have we not?

Mr. Sam Waide:

The 35 emails did not go to my email address.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not say they did. I did not give a number. I just said that I had not received a response from you. We have clarified it.

The issue I have here is not just roads infrastructure. Visibility is also a key factor. When it comes to roads and hedging, particularly in rural Ireland, instead of Mr. Waide going to Sweden, I would rather that he comes down to the south of County Wexford, where, it would appear, we have half of the population of Dublin driving on roads that are not white-lined and where the ditches, not the hedges, have grown out by about a metre. That means the driver of the car, with no white line on the road, is a foot away from the ditch and nearly on the other side of the road. This is a primary consideration for road safety but it is not one I have seen Mr. Waide represent, or if he has, I want him to submit his representations to the committee.

I know extensive reports have gone from the IRHA, which I was party to, whereby if a truck loses its mirror, because of the regulation and despite all of the obligations of county councils on hedge cutting, they are not obliged to cut the ditches to the height of the mirror on a truck or a bus. Is that correct?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Deputy Murphy-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it correct? Please, Mr. Waide. I have limited time and this is important. This is to help you.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The RSA has continually encouraged the cutting of hedges so junctions are safe. We have run campaigns for hedges to be cut.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has it made a recommendation of a height?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We have shared consistently with local councils the importance of hedges being cut.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is an EU regulation.

Mr. Sam Waide:

We have worked with the Irish Farmers’ Association to ensure that hedges are cut. There are many farmers-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I do not want to get tetchy. The issue is not just the cutting; it is the height. The problem we have with the NPWS is that there is no recommendation from the RSA that the height is not sufficient. One cut only brings it to the height of a car, two cuts possibly to the height of a tractor but three are needed for it to be over 1 m.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The point being made is that this is not happening, and we are all aware of that. The truck drivers have to keep out because their mirrors are getting broken, and mirrors cost €300 or €400 in some cases.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is the cost, the time off the road and the fact that whatever journey they undertake without a mirror is one of extreme danger. My point is that I have seen no recommendation from the Road Safety Authority for that to change. I have asked for it but the RSA has always said that is within the remit of the NPWS. I suggest it is within the remit of the RSA to give the NPWS the advice and recommendations.

We have 6,000 km of hedging in fields that the birds can nest in. Birds do not nest on the side of the road, and that is the primary reason that we are not cutting ditches on the roadside.

I have a question for Mr. Rowland. Is it his contention that Professor Desmond O'Neill is stating that those aged over 70 are not medically sound or are less medically sound than other drivers?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

To clarify, my understanding is that what Professor O'Neill said is that over-70s can be at a greater risk due to their age.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will read what it says on the Government website. It quotes Professor Desmond O'Neill, from the national office for traffic medicine, as stating:

This change [in extending the medical to 75] is welcome in terms of recognising that older drivers are an exceptionally responsible group of drivers. In addition, the change is supported by international research indicating that routine medical screening of older drivers is not only ineffective but may actually unintentionally increase injury and death among older people as pedestrians.

Does that sound like what Mr. Rowland has said?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

What the Deputy is referencing is in regard to category B car drivers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not relevant.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

It is.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know medicals are provided for professionals, regardless of their age. Does it sound like he is referring to over-70s in any category?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

What he has differentiated is that drivers of cars can-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where has he differentiated that? I have not read anywhere that he differentiates it in that way.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I will see-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You will submit it.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

If it is there, I will submit it, but I will clarify it with him.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What do you mean you will clarify it with him?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

My understanding is that what Professor O'Neill has said is that-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will finish reading. It states: “The change in the age-limit is supported by a range of supports for older drivers and healthcare professionals in terms of comprehensive guidelines on medical fitness to drive”.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

That is category B drivers and not category C.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is buses. Category B is cars, tractors and what else? That applies to more than B.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I clarified this with my friend at the time and checked the website within the NDLS system. It states that a medical report is required if you are driving a commercial vehicle, which are categories C, D and derivatives. We also call out other areas, one of which is if you are over the age of 75, which brings it into the classification of an A and B licence.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a lot more than A and B. There are tractors-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Absolutely. There is a W licence.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There are at least six categories. Regardless of being over 70, there is no research that shows over-70s in any category are less safe than over-70s driving a car. There is no research.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we ask for that, because it was suggested? This has come up a lot and is a thorny subject with the public. It will be a thornier one by September when we do not have enough school bus drivers. Will Mr. Rowland come back to the committee with clarification on that? I heard of an office this morning I did not know existed. From the answers given it seems that it was tendered and is contracted to the RSA. We do not want to personalise this. There is a professor-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not personal.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a professor who is not-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chair, it is causing untold hardship.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Deputy, I am chairing the meeting. There is a professor who is not here this morning, but we need an explanation for this because it is totally unsatisfactory. I agree with the Deputy. I have representations about this as well. Not a month goes by when I do not get them. We will have a pile of them by September because a lot of bus drivers, some of whom are friends of mine, will go over 70, which means they cannot drive the school bus. As Deputy English said, they can bring the kids to the swimming pool one hour later if they want to. It is a real point. The Deputy can have one very quick question because she is way over time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many HGV testers do we have, and what is the waiting time for a test?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Is that test centres or testers?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Testers for HGV licences.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I will have to come back on the actual number of testers, but from I memory I think it is approximately 70, and of 55 driving test centres, I think 39 of them are equipped to take HGV testing. This is part of our ongoing reviews of how we will improve the curriculum and our education-----