Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Senators O'Loughlin and McGreehan. On behalf the committee, I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion, Deputy Naughton, and Mr. Frank Hanlon, Mr. Martin McLoughlin and Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officers in the special education section of the Department. The Minister of State may call on her officials to speak briefly during the meeting in respect of specific points. If a technicality arises, they may clarify issues for the committee. Any follow-up questions should be put to the Minister of State because she is the accountable person before the committee. I am aware a wide range of issues will be subject to today's discussion. If necessary, further and more detailed information on certain issues raised can be sent to the clerk to the committee for circulation to members.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the House in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is important that they do so.

Members are reminded of the same parliamentary practice. Those who are contributing remotely must be physically present or within the confines of Leinster House to contribute to a public meeting.

I invite the Minister of State to make her opening remarks.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for inviting me, as Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion, to attend this meeting. I am accompanied by a number of officials from the Department’s special education section, namely Mr. Doody, Mr. Hanlon and Mr. McLoughlin, who work in various policy and operational areas of special education within the Department.

It is hard to believe two months have passed since I became Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion. In this short time, I have had the opportunity to meet a variety of stakeholders including children, their parents, teachers and special interest groups, who have provided me with valuable insights and perspectives on the day-to-day challenges, issues and, indeed, successes within special education. Through school visits, I have seen generosity, care and compassion from not only teachers and special needs assistants but the whole school community as they support, develop and nurture the children with special educational needs in their schools. It makes me proud as an educator to see the progress we have made in schools in the area of special education, especially in recent years. However, many of my engagements have also provided me with insights into what we need to do better. My consultations with parents and advocacy groups have highlighted the need for continued improvements. I look forward to discussing some of these issues with the committee today.

Special education is a broad and complex area for parents, schools and policymakers. Meeting special educational needs officers on the ground and my engagement with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, at national level have provided me with insights into the complexities of day-to-day operations in this sphere. I can understand the frustrations parents can have when seeking a special educational placement and I am committed to alleviating these stresses. The recent investment for the expansion of the NCSE will do a lot, but practical solutions we can implement will help. I have asked the NCSE to work on this as a priority, and we meet weekly to address matters as they arise.

I have met many parents over the past two months and have discussed many concerns with them. However, the most pressing relates to finding a special educational placement. I know that some parents are still seeking an appropriate placement for their child for September and I would like to take this opportunity to alleviate these concerns. So far, just over 380 new special classes have been sanctioned by the NCSE for this coming school year and some more will follow. The NCSE has assured me sufficient capacity will be created to ensure there is a place for every child known to it for September, and it continues to work with some schools to progress admission policies and enrol children. At this time of year, there is a flurry of activity in admissions as parents accept or refuse offers and this leads to more places becoming available. I ask parents to continue to engage with the NCSE because local special educational needs officers will keep parents informed of available school places as they arise.

Looking to the future, I have asked the NCSE to ensure its additional staffing resources will be used to sanction new special classes earlier ahead of the 2025-26 school year. I would like parents to know as early as possible where their child will be going to school. This will provide greater certainty to parents and allow more time for schools to plan for recruitment, training and the completion of any building works.

I know that the summer period can also be an anxious time for many parents as they look for programmes and activities in which their child can engage. I am happy to announce that this year, 1,700 schools will arrange summer programmes. It is great to see that initiatives introduced by the Department encouraging more school participation are working, with more than 300 more schools volunteering to run a summer programme this year compared with last year. Running a summer programme takes significant effort and it is important schools be supported and helped through the process. This is why we introduced a variety of dedicated supports and roles specifically for the programme.

The new national co-ordinator, summer programme organiser and summer programme manager roles are pivotal to ensuring a school’s programme runs smoothly during the summer and can take pressures off school-term staff. In addition, by providing schools greater flexibility in how they staff their programmes it has not only provided resourcing solutions for schools but afforded many students work experience in their chosen fields over the summer break. Initiatives like these will continue to see more schools opt to facilitate a summer programme and I look forward to furthering developments in this area.

I know the committee wishes to discuss the many policy initiatives my Department has to continually enhance the educational experience of children with special educational needs. These cover a wide breath of areas such as the revision of the transition year programme, the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy and developments with the behaviour of concern guidelines.

As the committee will be aware, my Department is undertaking a review of the EPSEN Act. Indeed, the committee’s submission as part of the public consultation process feeds into this review. A huge amount of consultation has taken place, most significantly the public consultation process which returned 28,000 online survey responses from parents, students, schools and other interested stakeholders and the almost 1,000 easy-access survey responses recently received. This is a fantastic response and shows the huge public interest in the area.

The current EPSEN legislation has been in place for 20 years and there have been many significant changes and developments to policy relating to the education of children with special educational needs in that time. One of the most important of these changes is our move from a diagnosis-led model to a needs-led model, which is a child-centred model of provision in line with the UNCRPD. Today, children are supported by special education teachers, SETs, and special needs assistants, SNAs - resources readily available in schools and these supports are available to children without the need for assessment. This is critical to ensuring children can access these supports as quickly as possible within their normal school environments.

In addition, our schools have become much more inclusive since the introduction of the EPSEN Act. We now have more than 3,000 special educational classes dotted throughout our mainstream schools. This is why this review is so important. Our legislation must function for the education system that is here today and support it for the future. This is an exciting time for special education as not only will the review help form the future direction for legislation, but it will help form our policies and thinking towards the future of our education system. Of course, any legislative changes proposed will require careful consideration, detailed analysis, pre-legislative scrutiny and consideration of the wider governmental legislative programme.

It is important to me that the pressures parents face in seeking a special educational placement be addressed. This is one of my priorities as Minister of State for special education and inclusion. However, I am also very aware that we need to do more for children transitioning in and out of school and at various levels, be it into primary, post-primary, third level or out of the education system. It is my ambition to see transitional pathways introduced into our education system. These pathways need to outline the various options available to students with special educational needs and provide clear direction and understanding of the future ahead. This is important to me as Minister of State and something I plan to focus on during my term.

While huge progress has been made in recent years in the area of special education, there remain many challenges. I am committed to examining these challenges and working with my colleagues across Departments to work out solutions to these issues. I thank the committee for giving me this opportunity address it today and look forward to discussing the issues members raise.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. While considerable work has been done as she said, much more work needs to be done. The consultation indicates that the growth in demand for placement in special classes will continue. While I welcome that and I welcome the amount of work that has been done, how can the model change while keeping up with the demand? How can it be ensured that children with special educational needs are appropriately supported?

Many support services, such as NEPS, are under-resourced and temporary measures are often insufficient. Does the Department have any initiatives or plans to ensure appropriate resourcing of support services?

The Minister of State referred to the EPSEN Act. It was really welcome that there were more than 28,000 online submissions. I ask the Minister of State to give us a bit more information on the timeframe and the tasks remaining on this.

An issue that comes up in my area of Carlow-Kilkenny is the lack of opportunities when finishing school where children with disabilities are not offered an opportunity to attend further training or further learning. Children are leaving school at 18 years of age and may remain in a day service for up to 40 years. We need to make sure we have the proper facilities there. Concerns have been expressed over teachers not being trained adequately. There is a risk of regression for individuals with disabilities. The Minister of State will be very much aware of school transport and while I know it is not within her remit, it remains part of the issue. The barriers for drawing down from the Department have been a huge issue for me.

Money must be ring-fenced in budget 2025. We need to have the money there for the services.

The Minister of State spoke about the schools summer programme. I am glad that she has made big changes there. I recently spoke to her about the funding for that and the pay for teachers involved. I ask her to come back to me on that.

Overall, I believe a lot of good work has been done but in many areas, more funding, information and communication is needed. We are dealing with very vulnerable people here. If they want to stay in education, get special training or whatever, it is important for them and their families that we give them that option.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I might deal with the budget issue first. At the forefront of my mind is places for children this September. All Departments are starting the Estimates process dealing with the Department of public expenditure and reform. As the Deputy knows, a third of the budget, €2.7 billion, goes towards special education. I want to get an increase in funding in the upcoming budget to make sure we are continuing the investment in this area.

The Deputy mentioned NEPS. We are increasing the number there by 54 this year. She also spoke about supports for special education. As she will be aware, the Taoiseach has a particular interest in this and he set up a Cabinet committee to make sure that rather than Departments working in silos, we are all working towards ensuring we are catering for the needs of children with additional needs and disabilities. The Departments of Health, Education, public expenditure and reform, and disabilities are all sitting at the table with the Taoiseach and Tánaiste to ensure we are setting up a structure to ensure we meet the needs of, from my perspective, children with additional needs or adults with additional needs.

In the few weeks I have been in the Department, I found that the NCSE was allocated funding for 39 speech and language therapists and occupational therapists, but not many of them were hired. When I asked why, I was told that they did not have permanent contracts. Working with my colleague the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, I have secured 44 therapists, comprising 19 speech and language therapists, another 19 occupational therapists and five behavioural therapists, who will be employed on a permanent basis by the NCSE. They will go into schools to work with teachers to build the capacity of teachers. This was done on a pilot basis in 75 schools around the country. It is all about an evidence-based policy.

I know we also have the community side of this which is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. All of this feeds into helping children with additional needs. One of the findings from those pilots was that the teachers felt more equipped working in the collaboration with the therapists in the classroom. The learning outcomes of the children improved. The need for more SNAs and extra resources decreased as result of these therapists coming in and collaborating with teachers. We can see the benefits of that. In the upcoming budget I want to increase that and roll this out to a greater extent.

The Deputy mentioned the summer programme. The numbers have increased again. A total of 13,000 children availing of the summer programme in 2019. That has risen to 50,000 children, which shows the interest in the programme, and I want to keep encouraging more schools to take that on board. Again, we reached out to schools asking them what the barriers to engaging with the summer programme were and one of the key barriers was pay for teachers and SNAs so we increased that. The number of schools has increased by 300.

The Deputy also mentioned the transition issue and I will let Mr. Doody come in on that. There have been 20 pilots across the country. She is absolutely correct that for parents and for students themselves there is sometimes a gap between going from early years services into primary level, from primary level to secondary level and from secondary level to further education or employment. Whatever that transition is there needs to be work happening in that space so it is seamless. I will ask Mr. Doody to comment.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

Yes, there are 20 schools involved in two clusters. The Deputy is absolutely right that we want to try to ensure the transition for young people attending special or mainstream schools is optimal. We want to make sure they make the best choices available to them. For some, that might mean progression to the world of work. For others it might mean a further education or training programme or a place in adult disability services. We want to give young people the full range of options. We have supported the programme through the comprehensive employment strategy for persons with disabilities. It has proven to be very successful across the 20 schools. Ten of the schools are in Galway and ten are in Dublin. We have taken the decision to expand that programme next year to 40 special schools. The reason we are focusing on special schools is that is where we find the young people with the greatest level of need. There has also been a commitment to providing guidance counselling services provision in special schools. The Deputy is probably aware that special schools are officially categorised as primary special schools.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I am aware.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

Therefore, special schools do not have an allocation of post-primary provision. We are giving each of these 40 schools additional "transition support hours" - that is what we are calling them. The function of the teachers who will work with the students in the programme will be to try to make sure the young people at the top end of the special schools are supported to make really good transitions into whatever option is best for them and it is done in conjunction with parents, local employers and so on. We have had very positive feedback about the impact of certain employers and we have used the offices of Business in the Community. It is embedded in this. It is new for Business in the Community. It had not previously worked in the area of special education and has certainly risen to the task.

We also have a second programme funded through the Dormant Accounts Fund. The programme is quite different in some respects but ultimately has the same purpose, which is to provide young people with the best possible pathway from the school setting into whatever awaits them. It is a partnership programme with the NGO, Walkinstown Association for Persons with Intellectual Disabilities, WALK. It is different from the comprehensive employment strategy transitions programme in that it is not led by teachers. There are employment facilitators employed by WALK and who work with special schools to provide agency to the young person. Both programmes will be formally evaluated. We have a lot of anecdotal feedback from schools who have found it to be absolutely superb in terms of the support given to the young people. There has been some really positive feedback from employers, in particular, who may not previously had young people with disabilities in their employment. One employer I am aware of who previously never had employed a person with a disability wanted to know how much they should pay the person. There is a level of awareness building in respect of people's rights and so on. Young people leaving special schools have absolutely the same rights as everybody else in terms of employment and so on. The programmes are making very good progress.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. He mentioned the EPSEN Act. There was a huge amount of feedback on the review I mentioned with 28,000 submissions. We hope to finalise that before the end of the year. We are currently bringing all of the consultation material together so that will be finalised by the end of the year.

The Deputy also mentioned the Joint Committee on Autism report. I attended the presentation in the audiovisual room last week along with Deputy Tully and Senator Carrigy. The Department has been talking to the Department of children for more than a year regarding an autism innovation strategy. There are a number of education actions as so we will finalise that as well.

As I outlined in the AV room, I wish to continue engaging with the autism committee. The work it is doing is critical and will feed into my work and my area of policy.

This matter also relates to one of the questions on special classes, buildings, forward planning and having foresight of what is coming down the track. The NCSE works with schools and the Department of Education on forward planning in this area. We needed to buff up the NCSE’s resources. That work has been under way for the past year or two. We are increasing its staff by 50% and they will be on the ground engaging with schools and forward planning. Schools have much of the information on incoming pupils in the year ahead that they need in order to plan for school buildings and special classes. For example, the number of SENOs will increase from 73 to 120. Those SENOs are being hired and trained at the moment. I hear from the NCSE that a high calibre of SENO is coming on stream. I have weekly engagements with the NCSE. Currently, those engagements are on school places for the upcoming school year, but with its extra resources, the NCSE will now be better equipped to engage in forward planning more effectively.

Assessments of need were raised at the Cabinet committee. I am loath to say it, as we are not meant to be working in silos and we have the Cabinet committee because we are all meant to be working on this together, but assessments are a matter for the HSE. Discussions are happening at committee level on assessments of need and how to improve them and ensure children can access them. This also relates to the Disability Act.

I was asked about the revised transition year programme. The Minister stated that a revised transition year programme would be developed. It will help to ensure the delivery of a valuable transition year experience for students across all schools participating in the programme. This will include the provision of professional support to teachers and schools through continuous professional development. The revised transition year programme statement was approved by the NCCA when it met last week and will now be submitted to the Minister for consideration. Officials from my Department met officials from the Ombudsman for Children’s office in recent months regarding a small number of complaints that were referenced in the Ombudsman’s report. The Department noted that the operation of transition year, TY, was a matter for the schools concerned, but it was indicated to the Ombudsman’s office that the publication and introduction of the programme statement would be supported by engagement with schools in the coming year, including the provision of clear and accessible information to students and parents to support participation in TY. It is important to note that 80% of students avail of transition year, but issues can always arise. Almost 59,000 students availed of transition year in the 2023-24 school year. All schools will have the opportunity to audit their current TY offerings and revise those where necessary in line with the programme statement as part of the latest senior cycle redevelopment information note, which was sent out to schools last week.

I was asked about school transport. That is in the Minister for Education's area, but I know from my visits to special schools that arranging transport for special schools can be onerous. Organising buses for special schools is a big logistical operation for school managements. From my consultation and engagement across the country, I am aware of the school transport issue. Perhaps it is one I can try to assist with in some shape or form. I do not know yet what that assistance would be, but transporting children with additional needs from different locations is onerous for a school. I have taken this consideration on board, so my door is open to any feedback members of the committee have.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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For some children in Donegal, it takes 50 minutes to get to school by taxi and 50 minutes to get back. This is down to a lack of special needs schools in rural Ireland.

To confirm, are we discussing the programme that used to be called “July provision”?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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The Minister of State mentioned that 1,700 schools had arranged summer programmes for this year. Is that the overall figure or does it only relate to mainstream schools with special classes? Does the Department monitor the uptake of school-based summer programmes?

Nearly every Thursday when I drive home, I listen to the radio. Approximately three weeks ago, a mother spoke on radio about trying to get her child with special needs into a school in her area. A great deal has changed in our education system for children with additional needs and, to a certain extent, these children are no longer labelled and there is no longer a sense of shame in having a child with special needs. We should all welcome that. Our schools have adapted and, I hope, will continue adapting to meet children’s needs. Are there many children who are still without school places for next September? In September, what will be the overall number of students in special education classrooms and special schools?

I only learned today that some of the summer programmes are held at home. One of my friends, who works with the Civil Engagement Group and has a child with special needs, told me that was not equality. That child has to do the summer programme at home for a few hours per week. Will the Minister of State tell us a bit more about what is done in the home for children with special needs?

I have loved being a member of this committee for the past two and a half years. There is cross-party agreement and we want the best for people with additional needs, especially children. One shoe does not fit all, of course, and I welcome the work the Department is doing with Traveller and Roma children. Disabilities do not know race or class. Unfortunately, it is an extra cost for people from ethnic minorities and working class areas.

I will ask one further question. I could ask six or seven more, but I will leave them for other members. Numerous times at this and the education committees, I have raised the need to recognise the SNA profession within our education system. For children with additional needs from the Traveller community and the general population, SNAs support them to reach their full potential. Many SNAs are carers and educators for the few hours per day they are in the schools. What is the view of the Minister of State or the Department on recognising SNAs as a profession? SNAs do crucial work and it should be recognised.

They work on the summer programmes and do voluntary work. The Minister of State mentioned young students getting experience in her opening statement. These young people need to have a wage as well at the end of the week or the month. We should be looking at a suitable wage for the volunteers, especially with the cost of living. My mother used to always say we should not expect people to do so much good work for absolutely nothing and no appreciation. When we talk about volunteering, we are talking about mostly young women in caring roles who we should be giving a payment to.

That is it from me for now. I thank the Minister of State.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for her comments on that. The summer programme includes both special classes in mainstream schools and special schools, so the number has increased from 1,400 to 1,700. There was a time when there were only 13,000 children availing of the summer programme, which used to be called the July provision, but it is now 50,000. We have seen that increase and we are going to be constantly reviewing this and want to encourage more schools to do it.

On Donegal first of all, there are 12 new special classes there for the 2024-2025 school year, so there are now 127 special classes in Donegal with two special schools. However, the Senator is right about the transport times. The vision I have here is that children can attend the school in their area. That is the reason for increasing the resources of the NCSE, having it more visible on the ground and supporting it in its work with schools to identify these gaps across the country that need to have provision. I travel the country and meet principals and teachers in schools that have opened up the special class for the first time. There was often a lot of trepidation about opening the special class and staff were very honest about that. There was a fear attached to it and there is a culture needed in this area as well, but what the principals and school community say to me is that the value that special class brought to the whole school community has been phenomenal. What the staff and the other pupils get goes beyond education. It is social, emotional and there are so many benefits. I am preaching to the converted here, but it is really important to say that. We still have work to do and it is my role to provide the supports for schools and support them with training and all that. I think the Senator mentioned training, though maybe it was someone else.

She mentioned the SNAs. We have 21,000 SNAs across the country and they do phenomenal work. We had a survey published today or yesterday of the SNAs. Some 7,000 of those 21,000 fed into it. There is a high satisfaction rate within it, though it is a very stressful job. We are all aware of that and that any front-line services are stressful. Many of them are highly qualified in their own areas in life themselves. Many would perhaps prefer more continuous professional development and these are areas I would like to look at as well as a result of this. There is a workforce development plan under way so this survey is going to feed into that.

I might let Mr. Hanlon come in on other areas there. The Senator mentioned September and many members were looking at this around the 381 new special classes already sanctioned so far this year. That is over 3,200 for the 2024-2025 school year. There are four new special schools and 124 in total. In my weekly meetings with the NCSE on school placements for the upcoming school year it is confident there is sufficient provision for children known to it. It important any parents listening ensure they engage with the NCSE because sometimes parents are going directly to the schools, which is fine, but it is about letting the NCSE know as well that they need a place for their child this coming school year.

I will hand over to Mr. Hanlon if that is okay on the summer programme and the home-based programme.

Mr. Frank Hanlon:

I thank the Senator. She raised a couple of questions on the summer programme. The home-based element of it has always been there and it is effectively where a school is not running the programme and a child is eligible they are entitled to get a home-based programme instead. That means the parents recruit a tutor to come to the house and give up to 40 hours of tuition. It is not what we necessarily want to see because our preference is always for the school to run the programme and for the children to be engaging with other children and thriving in that type of environment. Any school that runs it will say it is hugely beneficial when the children come back in September, etc. It is there as an option if the school is not running the programme. The fact more and more schools are running the programme means we are seeing slightly fewer children taking up that option, which is good, or having to take up that option. Last year we started it and we are promoting it again this year. Even within the home-based programme we have a few groups doing it in a kind of private capacity so they can take in the kids if the school is not running it. We would like to promote that more. We also allow children to do it in a group setting, so we are telling tutors they can take groups of to three children together and do it with them. They are in with other kids, etc., and it just makes for a better environment to do it.

Just to clear up another point, anyone taking part in the scheme, whether SNAs or teachers, are paid for it. There is not any volunteerism required for the summer programme. We pay any staff who are taking part for it, just to clarify that.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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That is great.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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To add a final thing, the inspectorate monitors the summer programme as well. The reports back from it have been really positive. It says the summer programme is working excellently and going very well.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for taking the time. I had a meeting with her last week that was very comprehensive. Some of this is just me thinking on further from that meeting.

I apologise, but I had to go to another event and the Minister of State may already have answered this question. The parents in my home constituency of Dublin South-Central have the experience of being handed a list and told to apply for all those schools when a child is coming up to primary or secondary school age. In some instances the primary school is divided into a junior primary and a senior primary, which was a new thing to me until I came in here. There can be a special class in the junior primary, but not in the senior one. They will have separate principals, separate boards yet be on the same grounds. A child who does not have any additional needs will smoothly transition from second class over to third class from one school to another, but a child with additional needs will not. Their parents are then left with the trauma and fear of what to do next and whether they can get a child into third class in another school.

I have worked with organisations like the Dublin 12 Autism Group and Involve Autism which the Minister of State has spoken with also. They are great advocates, have been the instruments of change and stimulated change, but what are we expressly doing to stop that? It is not okay for us to be employing people at a State level who are there to assist parents in finding schools places where the assistance consists of offering a list of 30 schools. I have held public meetings with a couple of hundred parents in the room where many have stood up crying and telling us they have had to apply to 30 schools. I raised this with the Minister of State, but part of me also does not understand why we do not have a portal for people to log on to where they can input that they live in Walkinstown, their child was born on such and such a date and they are going to need a primary school. There should be some means of feeding-in there so a school is not left with applications from perhaps 20 families when another school has applications from the same 20 families. There are schools which have co-ordinated their effort together and pooled their resources to work this out between them, but schools should not really have to do that. Either the SENOs do that or perhaps I am wrong in that and we need to create some sort of portal as a means for efficient allocation. The regular system of applying to a school and accessing school just does not cut it in this environment.

I will leave it at that for now.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has hit the nail on the head in relation to some of the issues for parents. Even in the coming school year, it is an issue when classes become available in a particular school. I am speaking in general now. Parents have raised with me that sometimes when a place opens up it will be taken by a child already in the school who requires a special class. This is about information sharing, which is exactly what the Senator is highlighting. Part of the solution is resourcing the NCSE, which we are doing through increasing the number and visibility of SENOs on the ground. SENOs have been overstretched. They had too wide a geographical area and were laden down with a lot of administrative work - paperwork. These are issues I am responding to. For this reason, the NCSE is being given administrative positions to alleviate some of the workload from SENOs to allow them to do their work and go into schools, talk to teachers and parents, work on forward planning and help with transition from junior to senior school, for example, or from primary to secondary school. It will be about relationship building with the schools. There is work under way in Limerick on good models in this area. There are areas in Dublin where the schools have access to information on the numbers of children coming in. They would have sight of that information but the NCSE might not. Information sharing is, therefore, important and will be an absolute priority. Come September 2025, I do not want parents to be in the same position as parents are today, not knowing where their child will be in September. That is why the ramping up of resources to the NCSE will be very important in that.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for attending. I had a commitment and had to leave the room so if I ask a question that has already been answered, I ask her to forgive me.

The Minister of State stated there were 3,000 special education classes. Is that just at primary level or is it primary and secondary level?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is both.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I did a rough estimate based on that. There are approximately 60,000 students in each year. Given that about 60,000 sit the leaving certificate every year, I extrapolated from that. From junior infants up to sixth class, there is a cohort of about 60,000 nationwide in each of those years. At primary level, that would give us a total of 480,000, almost half a million, pupils and at secondary level we have approximately 360,000 students. The World Health Organization estimates that between 4% and 15% of the population are neurodiverse. Taking the more conservative estimate of 4% gives us 33,600 children at primary level who are neurodiverse. The higher estimate, which I think is where the truth lies, would give us a figure of about 125,000. With 3,000 special education classes at primary level, based on the conservative 4% figure, my guesstimate is that we have a capacity to meet 50% of the need. If closer to 15% of the population is neurodiverse, with an overall total of 3,000 classes, there is a lot of capacity building to be done to meet that need.

I have a couple of questions, which will go from broad philosophical questions to more precise ones. Like many of my colleagues, I receive a huge volume of correspondence from families who are in crisis and at their wits' end. They do not know what is going to happen with their child. Very often, the recurring theme is that the child has a fundamental right to an education under the UN Charter of Human Rights but the parent cannot get a place for their child. The other thing I am told over and over is that children are being forced to go into a setting away from their siblings. I have had experience of that myself with my family where, due to a lack of supports in one setting, one of my children had to be educated in a completely different environment. That issue also arises.

How would the Minister of State characterise the Department's capacity to deal with this unmet need? Is this a crisis that requires more support from the Minister for Finance perhaps or Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform? Would the Minister of State characterise the situation as crisis-like? Is she getting enough support from Cabinet colleagues for her officials here. I have had occasion to deal with officials from her Department and they have always been very positive interactions. I know they are working very hard in difficult circumstances. Is the Department getting enough supports? What is the ideal support-to-pupil ratio in one of those 3,000 classes? Would it be 1:10 or 1:5? What is it? Based on the figures I have here, the ratios are quite high. I apologise again if the Minister of State has already answered some of those questions.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The autism prevalence rates will be of interest to everybody. There has been a significant increase in the number of young people diagnosed with autism in Ireland. A Department of Health report in 2018 suggested that the autism prevalence rate was approximately 1.8% of the population. It is evident that figure is now outdated. Using the best information available, the Department of Education uses a prevalence rate of 3.2% for forward planning purposes. This increase is very significant and mirrors what is happening internationally.

It is worth saying that in general, many people can be neurodiverse but they will not need specialist support. Where they do need it, we have 15,000 special education teachers in mainstream classes who work with children with a broad range of additional needs. We also have 21,000 SNAs. Where children require specialist support, we have 3,000 special classes.

We are constantly looking at the evidence and engaged in forward planning. That is the role of the NCSE, with the Department. The Department of Health also has role in relation to prevalence figures.

The Senator asked about the support of my colleagues. I assure him that at Cabinet committee meetings, of which we have had a number to date, we work tirelessly to make sure we are planning ahead and addressing needs around assessments of need and therapies in the community. My colleagues, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, are working very hard on that, as is the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman. From my perspective, I am dealing with therapies and supports, which relates to what the Senator was talking about. Every child has a right to an education. At the moment, we sometimes find that issues arise when children come into junior or senior infants in the school setting, or where they have arisen beforehand they are being dealt with in the school system. That is why I was really strong about ensuring those 39 therapists for which the NCSE was allocated funding were employed. The reason they were not employed is that they were not on a permanent contract. We have got that secured now so we will have 44 therapists.

To repeat what I said earlier, in case the Senator missed it, 19 speech and language therapists-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I heard the Minister of State speak about this in the audiovisual room the other day.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I get that this is only part of the jigsaw. There is also the whole area of community supports. Work is ongoing on forward planning. That is a role for the NCSE and my Department, working with the Departments of children and Health, which will play a key role in respect of the evidence regarding prevalence rates. This is not just about neurodiversity but also-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The Minister of State referred to a prevalence estimate of 3.8%, which is as near as makes no difference to 4%. Based on my calculation, it means there are approximately 48,000 people in the system who are on the spectrum. There is a huge range of need within that. I ask again how she would characterise the capacity to meet that need. Is the system in crisis or is it doing fine?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Not all neurodiverse children will need supports. It is absolutely the case that we have challenges. I see that as I travel all around the country.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Does the Minister of State not characterise the situation as a crisis?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are challenges throughout the country. The Senator can characterise it any way he likes. I see that there is huge anger.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I am asking the Minister of State how she would characterise the situation.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I characterise it in the context of parents' anger and frustration. Yes, there is a crisis for families who cannot find a place for their children this coming school year.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The Minister of State is using passive language in talking about parents who "cannot find a place for their children". In fact, there are no places.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This is what I am working through every single week with the NCSE. It is why I am holding weekly meetings to discuss capacity. The NCSE has told me there is capacity for children who have additional needs to find a special school place. They will get places in the coming school year. These are the children who are known to the council. I will be brutally honest in saying that the council may not have all the information. The schools may have more information. That is the loop I want to close by this time next year such that I do not have parents protesting outside these buildings. They should not have to turn up at Dáil Éireann to protest because they do not know whether their children will have a school place in the coming school year. That is the work I am doing.

Do I want to be in this position? I absolutely do not. However, it is not about me; it is about the children and their families and the frustrations they are experiencing. I know it is little comfort to parents who have been told the same for years but I assure them that I want to make sure the NCSE identifies and allocates these school places early in the year, in January or February, not in June or July. That is the work I am doing and the commitment I give to parents across the country. I cannot say I will fix the situation by September. I am not in the space of promising something I cannot deliver. However, I assure the Senator that I feel the frustration and anger of parents and I am working with the NCSE on opening up school places for children for the coming school year.

Mr. Martin McLoughlin:

On the percentage, the Senator is probably right to say it is 4%. The issue over the past few years certainly has not been a lack of funding. In each of those four years, working with the NCSE, we have provided 400 new special classes and 300 additional special school places. Each summer, the NCSE has concluded that this has met the need of the vast majority of children who require special classes and special school places. For the school year that is finishing, we calculate that approximately 2.7% of the entire primary and post-primary student population are in either a special class or a special school. That is made up of approximately 1% of the student population in special schools and 1.7% in special classes. For the coming school year, we will probably hit 3%. In the projections we are doing, it is really about maintaining the level of accelerated growth that has happened in the past few years, with the provision of the additional 400 special classes and 300 extra special school places. Within that, there have been, on average, four special schools established in each of the past few years. Our estimation is that we will need to continue that level of accelerated provision. Within two, three or four years, I expect we will be hitting the 4% the Senator referenced.

The other factor we are seeing is that the growth in special needs supports is mainly among younger children. There are more six-year-olds and seven-year-olds being diagnosed and assessed as needing a specialist placement than there are 17-year-olds and 18-year-olds. The need is at the lower end of the age spectrum. We are probably able to meet that need through the increase there has been in special class places at primary level over the past few years. We plan to continue that increased provision, working with the NCSE, over the next few years.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank Mr. McLoughlin for his response. I am grateful to the Minister of State for her frank assessment of the current situation as a crisis. I know it is not a crisis of her making. The correspondence I receive certainly speaks of a crisis for families. They appreciate hearing it framed in that way. I wish her the very best of luck with meeting that need in the coming years.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State and the Department officials. I welcome that there will be an increase in the staffing level of the NCSE. It is badly needed. At the time representatives of the NCSE appeared before the autism committee, there had been a significant increase in the number of administrative staff but not in the number of SENOs. Like Senator Seery Kearney, I have heard from parents who were handed a list of schools and told to go off and look for a place. It is soul-destroying for them and for their children when they receive refusal after refusal. Why does that have to happen? If a child starts in preschool and is availing of the access and inclusion model, AIM, programme, there should be joined-up thinking whereby that information is passed on to primary schools, in order that we know how many special class places are needed at primary level, and from there to the secondary schools. No child should be without a place. Needs might change but that should be monitored on an ongoing basis. Needs do not change that much. No parent should be scrambling for a place and having to worry about securing one. A mother contacted me recently whose child is in third class. She is already worried about where that child will go in four years. Will we see better, more joined-thinking between the three school stages and better planning for spaces?

We are here to discuss a vision for inclusive education. We have obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, to provide inclusive education in the State but that is not happening at the moment. I hear from increasing numbers of parents who are opting to send their child to a special school rather than an autism class in a mainstream school. The main reason they do so is the lack of appropriate training of staff. One parent in County Monaghan told me she is moving her son because his mainstream placement was causing him more harm than good. That child is now in a special school. Parents are nervous of not sending their children to a special school because they do not have confidence in the autism classes within the mainstream provision. That confidence must be built. The school inclusion model is an excellent model but it needs to be rolled out.

We also need links with the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, in community and primary care. That is not happening. I heard an HSE official comment that the relevant Departments do not talk to each other. They should be talking to each other. There should be a child-centred approach. The new SET allocation model excludes consideration of complex needs. I was told by a person in the NCSE that the reason for this is the lack of input from the CDNTs. Schools are saying they have the information but there is no way of inputting it. Could the primary online database, POD, system not be used to input that information? The review process that is in place seems to be there to discourage applications. It is too bureaucratic and involves too much red tape. Out of 360 schools who applied for review last year or the year before, only 60 were granted a review and only 39 had their hours increased. If schools are not happy with their SET hours, going through the review process is off-putting. Many of them do not even consider doing it.

There still are insufficient places in the summer programme and insufficient numbers of schools offering it. Will the Minister of State comment on claim by an Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, representative at an event last week that the capitation grant for the summer provision has been cut? If that is the case, why is it happening? An article in the Irish Independent yesterday reported that parents are paying top-up cash to teachers to have their child included in the summer provision. That is a disgrace. If there were sufficient places, it would not be happening.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her questions. Teacher training is an issue of huge interest to me.

I know that since September 2022, inclusive education has been a mandatory component in all initial teacher training programmes, aligning with the Céim standards for initial teacher education. I have been engaging with my colleague the Minister for higher education, Deputy O'Donovan, on teacher training colleges, and as part of all teacher training, I would like everyone to be assessed for teaching in a special class or special school. That should be common practice in order that teachers will feel equipped. There is also continuing professional development whereby teachers have access to that training within schools, which is really important. The 44 therapists I talked about will help with capacity building of teachers in rolling out therapies in schools. There are also 338 postgraduate funded places every year. We would like to do more in that space and, as part of the budgetary process, I want to ramp that up because I know that teachers feeling confident and that they have the skill set is a key part of this.

The Deputy highlighted that schools consider the SET hours onerous. I think the review process for SET hours used to be onerous, but in the latest reviews, 83% of schools proceeded to a full review and got additional resources, totalling 1,200 hours. To answer the Deputy's question, the process was significantly streamlined and has been made less onerous. Some schools may not be aware of it because in the older process, more paperwork may have been involved, but it is now easier for schools to engage in a review of their SET hours, which is a good message to get out there.

I referred earlier to the summer programme, for which there is €40 million. The numbers taking it up have increased, from 1,400 schools to 1,700. We reached out to schools and teachers and asked them what the barriers were, given that when parents wanted their local school to open a summer programme, many schools were not doing it. One of the key barriers was the pay rates for teachers and SNAs, so we increased them and, as a result, the numbers of schools have increased. The focus was on special schools and that capitation rate is €60, while the rate for special classes in mainstream schools is €45. The numbers have increased. There are limited resources and it is going to remain under review, but there has been an increase from 13,000 children participating in the summer programme to 50,000. I am going to constantly review the programme to try to make sure more schools take it up.

Early intervention, EL, classes are available in mainstream and special school settings for children aged between three and five years with a diagnosis of autism, and a small number are also available for children who are deaf or hard of hearing. These classes are intended to provide support to children before they start school and can aid their transition to junior infants. For the 2023-24 school year, there were 157 EL classes nationwide, while seven new classes have been sanctioned for the 2024-25 school year. A child's attendance in an early intervention class does not mean they will require a placement in a special class during their primary education, and many students enrol in mainstream classes thereafter. Part of that transition will involve the role of the NCSE and the SENOs on the ground, which will help greatly in the transition into primary school.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State talked about the number of schools taking up the summer provision, indicated it is not as many as we want and said she wants to concentrate on special schools. Some principals are very precious about their school, almost as though they own the school, but the Department of Education owns the school. Summer provision has been opened to other organisations. If a principal is not willing to open up, could it be provided for that another organisation, teacher or set of teachers from a different school could come in and use the facilities in that school?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Special schools are more complex and that is why the rate is €60. We want all schools to do it and we do not want to concentrate just on special schools. The Deputy is correct. What we are trying to do, from the Department's point of view, is reach out to schools to encourage them to take it up. Because the patrons own the schools, however, we do not have the ability to force them to do it, so we are working with schools, engaging with them and asking them what the barriers are, and we will constantly have that under review. Across the board, however, in both special and mainstream schools, the numbers taking up the programme have significantly increased, although there is more demand and we want to continue to work with schools in that area.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What about the top-up payments?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I absolutely do not agree with that. One of the key barriers was pay for teachers and SNAs and we increased that.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for attending. She outlined that this is a challenge and I agree. In my constituency, Galway East, and in that of the Minister of State, Galway West, we know what is happening on the ground and we know there are severe challenges for people. We have to recognise some positive steps that have been taken. In my town, Tuam, St. Oliver's Special School is a great example of new school having been built. The only problem with it is that it does not have the capacity to take the demand that has been created within two or three years of it having been opened. I know that a decision has been taken to build a new school building for the Ábalta school in Galway, which is great news, but it will be maybe five or six years before it will be available. The problem relates to the gap between decisions having been made and the project getting to completion.

Some schools tell me that when they look for a special class, they are told they can have the class but that the Department cannot give them the money to build it. They have to make do with whatever accommodation they have, whether that is by using a general purpose room or some other room they have, but that takes away from the entire school and what it should be doing if it is willing to take on a class. The classroom, as opposed to just a class, should be funded, as the building should be, as an additional facility in the school, rather than trying to shoehorn it into an existing school and pushing other services out of the way. This is why the boards of management of some schools are not encouraged to look for special classes. What happens then is that if there is not a special class in a school and if a child needs to go to a special class, they end up going to a different school from that attended by their siblings, which is a huge problem for families. I accept we cannot have special classes in every school, especially in rural Ireland, but we need to look at that a bit more closely and manage it better.

Another issue, which does not come directly under the Department of Education, relates to the assessment of children at a young age in order that we can plan for what is needed. I have dealt with a child in national school who wants to get into Lakeview School in Galway. When I was last talking about it, seven children were waiting to get into that school. I have visited it and the Minister of State knows it well. It needs to be demolished and rebuilt as a proper school, because an adult service is housed within the existing structures of the school. It is a bit archaic and we need to pull that up along the line. If there is any help I can give the Minister of State in doing that, I will do so because it needs to be done in order that our schools and education system will be fit for purpose.

The issue of transport for special education is a huge problem for rural areas, such as east Galway, Connemara and so on. One thing that will drive an improvement is joined-up thinking. The Minister of State mentioned her conversations with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, the Minister for children, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, but I do not believe a co-ordinated effort is coming together.

People are working in silos. One of the best things that could happen would be for the Minister of State's Department to make clear that the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, need to work with the Department from the get-go and the Department with them. That would help enormously.

It is a challenge, as the Minister of State said. It is a crisis but not one that cannot be resolved. The problem is that with the processes we have, it takes time to turn the wheel in the other direction. Small things will make a difference to a lot of people.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is right about early intervention and looking at the different milestones that children meet after they are born and along the way. That is a key part of this and it is within the community in primary care. These are the conversations we are having at the Cabinet committee.

I note there is an enrolment bubble coming into second level. Enrolments in primary education will fall by more than 100,000 over the next decade.

To respond to the Deputy's point about accommodation and the pressures on the system, it is important that children have access to a special class locally. We have different conversations here around children having to travel and not being in the same school as their siblings. We have to work with schools to see what their footprint is and if they could accommodate a special class. What we do not want is siblings going to different schools, if we can avoid that. We are looking at existing schools to see if they have a space that could be reconfigured, to a very high standard and within a window of six to eight weeks, so that children with additional needs are at the heart of schools.

I talked about the culture change as well. I know it is not always possible. I am not saying it is in every single case but I believe we need to have special classes in mainstream schools and working with schools as well. I gave the example of talking to a principal who said the whole school was transformed by having children with additional needs in the school and what that did for empathy, for staff, the caretaker and the local community. He spoke of the kindness this brings out in other children in the school community. There is no perfect solution for everyone. For some children, the solution will be a special school. We all understand that. However, that is what we are looking to achieve here.

There are 19 new special classes in Galway, which brings the number in the area up to 168.

The NCSE policy advice is that we should work to enable all children to attend their local school. That is what I was saying. That is why we have to work with schools - this was always the NCSE's role - to look at the space they have, be it a modular unit, a building or a special class within the existing space. That is where we want to go.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I got a email from an organisation called FASD Ireland in relation to neurological development conditions. It wants a particular condition to be included and not fall into the cracks. I will send the Minister of State the email and she can have a look at it.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to check a couple of things with the Minister of State. She indicated there were 44 new therapists. What type of schools will they work in?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They will work in mainstream schools with special classes and special schools.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sometimes there is not always clarity about the school inclusion model. Everyone likes the idea of the school inclusion model because the therapies are provided where the need is and where the children are. Everybody can benefit from the teachers and SNAs in relation to best practice. The model is to move from pilot stage. What does that mean?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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In the pilot, 75 schools engaged in the school inclusion model under which the therapist went into the school and worked with the teacher. It involves collaborating with the teacher and indirectly working with the pupils as well. This is all about evidence-based policy and the evidence was that the teacher felt more equipped. It is not the primary role of the teacher to be a therapist - that is not what we are saying. Parents from across the country raised with me that their children are there to learn and they want their learning outcomes to improve. We saw an improvement in learning outcomes and in behaviours. The extra resources sought by the schools in the pilot reduced because of the therapist coming in and working indirectly with the teacher. That is only one part, the part that falls within my role. I will go back to my silo again but it is a silo that is helping the health system and community therapists. We will have occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and five behavioural therapists. To explain the position, the therapists will be hired by the NCSE and they will go out to the schools. The schools will apply to the NCSE for these therapists to come and work with teachers in schools across the country.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a widening of the school inclusion model given that it is not specifically in special schools.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. What I would like, through this budget, is to increase that. This is a model I know works. There is the nursing pilot as well, which Mr. Doody can talk about if the Deputy wants to hear about it.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a case of moving from the pilot and expanding the model piece by piece. It does not mean it will be in place everywhere straightaway.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The NCSE will have these therapists and the schools will apply to the NCSE for them to come into the schools to work directly with the teachers.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

I will address the issue of the school inclusion model. SIM was more than just the delivery of therapy supports. It involved therapists working with schools, but it also included a nursing element, SNA support and additional psychological supports through the National Educational Psychological Service. The announcement the Minister has made in relation to therapy supports just involves one element of SIM being decoupled from the SIM programme and being made available nationally as a starting point - as step one.

The nursing element of SIM never developed in the way in which it was originally intended because the numbers were simply not there. When we went to the HSE to see how many children and young people required a nurse in order to attend school, it gave us a figure of 25 nationally. We said there was little point in devoting that support just in the SIM areas. That is now at a national level, so we have-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to that, Mr. Doody is talking about more bespoke solutions.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

That is a bespoke solution that provides nursing support for children nationally. The numbers have borne it out. In and around 25 or 26 applicants have been received for that nursing support.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There was absolute logic to the decoupling. It is about having the occupational therapists and all the other therapists in place. We all agree that we need to see that quicker and better. I do not think anyone was shocked that the system worked.

Will the Minister of State give an update on summer provision? There is a great deal about cuts in the public domain. The Minister of State indicated there is a payment of €60 for a special school and €45 for mainstream. I have read that in some cases the payment has been reduced to €30. I ask the Minister of State to put the facts on the table.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, it is €30 for mainstream.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There has been a cut.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The uptake across the country has increased. We put the resourcing into special schools with more complex needs but also, even in those mainstream schools, there was an increase in the rate of pay for teachers and SNAs. The funding is €40 million but it is a reconfiguration of the funding.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There has been a cut and the Minister of State is saying it is all being reviewed.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The teachers and SNAs have had an increase to encourage them to do the summer programme. More have done so and the numbers have increased. I want to continue to review that to make sure more schools take on summer provision.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It would make sense to keep it under constant review.

The school inclusion model seems to be the way to do it. Logic, intuition and everything else would say that, and the evidence backs that up. The big issue I have across the board is that we have never sat down properly and asked how we best use the resources we have as regards these therapists, of which we will not have all that we need. How do we back it up with assistive technology? It can be used by the kids themselves, their parents, teachers, SNAs and everyone else. It means that everybody has that information in front of them and has the ability to gen up, as we all do. Even occasionally, from time to time, I forget stuff, so it would be very handy if I have it on the phone or whatever. It is a case of when we have that argument and we do that. I know there is a wider issue beyond this related to how assessments are carried out and the whole issue of assessments of need, but could we even just concentrate on getting our best bang from buck from therapies?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The occupational therapists will make recommendations to the schools around what assistive technology they use as well.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and her officials. I wish her well in her new role. We have already met and spoken extensively on issues.

I wish to bring up a few points, many of which will refer back to the joint committee report on autism and the specific sections on special education. I note a number have been implemented.

I wish touch on the summer programme, which has been mentioned extensively. Saying it annoys me would be an understatement in respect of the way I feel about the number of special schools that still do not do it. Every single special school should be providing a school-based programme, without doubt. It can be done. Work was started last year and additional measures were brought in. Mr. Hanlon worked extensively on that. One school in Galway employed up to 30 persons off the portal. It ran a very successful four-week programme, and a significant number of those who worked on the programme worked in respite services afterwards. People were working in ECCE jobs throughout the summer. We had a four-week programme and we had no shortage of staff in ECCE. That can work throughout the country if there is a significant will at senior management level in some of the special schools.

The Joint Committee on Autism did a report where we wrote, on behalf of the committee, to every special school asking if they were doing it for summer 2023. One school came back and said it was not doing it because it was hiring out its facilities to another organisation that was running a camp for profit. That was its reason for not doing it. I strongly believe every school should be doing it, without exception. That is the way it needs to be from summer 2025. Whatever measures need to be put in place need to be put in place. I know that is where the witnesses want to get and I know they are working hard towards that. I spoke with members of teachers' unions last Wednesday after our meeting to talk about the first anniversary report. There is a willingness there, but there is a breakdown somewhere when they are not all doing it. That is what we need to work to.

I have a couple other queries. I refer to the Middletown Centre for Autism and the lack of power-sharing there for a significant time. That should be expanded upon. It is well recognised as being best practice model. We need to work further and roll out further training for both parents and teachers with the Middletown Centre. I ask the witnesses to comment on that.

With regard to the special classes set up, is there sufficient funding in place for school reconfiguration and sensory rooms?

WALK was mentioned. Only today, we had the graduation for the OWL programme in the Oireachtas, which works with Kare and WALK. It is a fantastic model of a programme. Significant numbers have gone on from those programmes to work in the Civil Service. That is a good model to work with and they are good organisations to work with. I am sure that will be successful. It needs to be expanded upon. More Departments need to work with the programme and take on trainees.

I will start with that and come back to other questions.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to visiting the Middletown centre. We had a North-South engagement with it. We are working with it. I will let Mr. Hanlon in on that, if he wants to speak to what we are doing in respect of the centre.

Mr. Frank Hanlon:

The Senator is right about the valuable work it does. It is a joint funding arrangement, North-South. It is 50:50. We work closely with our colleagues in the North of Ireland to look at the service they can do in the North and the South. We are talking to the Middletown centre about the bespoke business plan for us, very much along the lines of what the Senator talked about with regard to getting into more schools, assisting schools and individual pupils, and looking at the whole-school model that has proved successful. With the 50:50 funding model, careful consideration has to be given to it, even from a budgetary point of view. We are working closely with our colleagues in the North to expand that service.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Regarding special class funding, there is a project management framework. We take the administration burden off schools that open up special classes. They are funded. There is enhanced capitation, a start-up grant, provision of furniture and a sensory space is also provided.

I apologise to the Senator. I had his other questions there. I am not sure if I-----

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State covered it. I asked about the OWL programme – or the WALK project. Ironically, today was the graduation at Leinster House for the trainees.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

As I mentioned, there is very positive feedback on the operation and effectiveness of the programme. We are continuing to fund it.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned ACC devices. There is a huge opportunity with assistive technology to help and support. We use it at home with our son. Some 500 tablets were made available with apps and training through AsIAm from disability services, but that needs to be rolled out. Every child who has a speech and language issue should have access to that tablet with the proper app that can be brought home. It can be done in school and with parents and well. It can make a massive difference to a child. I know from personal experience that it works. Put that technology in the youngsters’ and parents’ hands and we can make much progress. The reality is we will not get to a situation for a long number of years where we have enough qualified therapists.

That brings me to the positions that were sanctioned by the Minister for further and higher education at the time, Deputy Harris, for speech and language assistants in the ETBs. Is it expected to expand on the number of those? In time, will there be a speech and language assistant position in every school? Has that been looked at?

Regarding teacher training, we met Teaching Council representatives at the committee and they were positive towards changing the models of teaching training to more inclusive education. I refer to the need for a module or for teachers having to spend a summer in the summer programme or at least a term in a special class, rather than what has happened in the past. We have seen teachers come straight out of college and put straight into a special class without any experience at all, which is not acceptable.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I completely agree around the teacher training. Even observing is not good enough. I would like to see, as a graded part of teacher training practice, part of the qualification in a special class or in a special school and, through continuous professional development, that teachers have access to these courses and we provide more courses. I outlined earlier what I am doing in the budget to open up more places for postgraduate positions.

On assistive technology, the Senator is absolutely correct. This is feedback I am getting from parents as well. We are reviewing the assistive technology scheme to ensure that all children can get technology where they need it. We are looking at the eligibility criteria as well. I welcome any feedback the committee has on that and I would feed that back in. Any assistance there would be much appreciated.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I have one last question.

An issue that comes up in every school is cover for people on leave. Some of the teachers working in special education centres do not get leave days for certain issues. Something arose today for two members elected to the local authority in Longford. There has been a change in the schedule for municipal meetings, which will now be held at 11 a.m. These two members work in special education. They are duty bound to attend the meetings on behalf of the electorate but the school will not be able to get cover. Is this correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I was teaching when I was elected to the city council. If the meetings were on during the school day, I could not get cover. I am going into other spheres but it is for local authorities to make it more accessible for people who are at work who have been elected as members. It is a more general question. People who are self-employed can get time off but people working in a school have commitments there. It is a broader issue with regard to having it more work friendly.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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There has been a change to what was the norm for the past 20 years, and it has put elected members in a situation. That is not acceptable.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter for the councils. The majority of the councillors would be able to decide on the times of meetings. Sometimes women at work are not able to get time off. It depends on the makeup of the council in the context of these decisions being made. That is my understanding.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I asked about speech and language assistant positions.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We want more therapy posts. I want more of them. That is why I made sure of the 44 permanent posts. I am working with the Department of higher education and my colleague the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, on increasing the supply of therapists coming through. Our new therapy service will facilitate placements in schools. We have seen this as part of the summer programme where student teachers can come in. It is the same thing for therapists. They can come in and be paid as part of it. It is a problem and we need to make sure we are training more therapists as there is a supply problem. We also need to have them working in schools. This is part of the school inclusion model we are putting in place.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I am asking about the assistant positions rather than speech and language therapists who have done the four-year course. I am speaking about the speech and language assistants on the ETB courses that will start. Five ETBs will have speech and language assistant courses. I do not know what FETAC level the course will be at.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is part of the workforce planning and I will come back to Senator Carrigy on it. I will get more detail and a better answer for him.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee. I also thank her officials. I very much like the Minister of State's analogy of the jigsaw puzzle. There is a job to be done in the context of looking at every piece of the puzzle and taking it apart in places and putting it back together to create a truly inclusive school system. I certainly cannot complain about the time the Minister of State has given me since she was given responsibility for special education. It is reflective of the situation we are facing in west Dublin with the lack of school places for children with additional needs. The Minister of State knows I am working with 23 families who need appropriate places in primary and secondary schools and special schools for their children when the new school year commences in September. Some of these children are not in the right environment. We know from the Dublin 15 primary principals network that there are 111 children in primary school who are not reaching their full potential in their school.

We are in the last week of school before the summer. Many of these families do not have school places for September. That is heartbreaking. The Minister of State met 14 of the families. We really appreciate that. We hear from families about their children's school reports not being what they want them to be. They state the child could thrive in a different environment. We are at a critical point. I would love if the Minister of State could give us an update based on the moving situation she is working on with regard to west Dublin and all of these families. We are speaking about an inclusive education system whereas we know from meeting these families they have had rejection after rejection, with sometimes up to 30 schools not accepting their children. I do not think we can call it an inclusive education system when this is happening in west Dublin.

In the here and now, the Minister of State is working every day on finding a solution for these families. We must also look at why we are here. How did we get to this point? My questions are on the role of the NCSC. How can we have children going from junior national school to senior national school with no forward planning to make sure there is a place for them? How can children go from primary school to secondary school with no proper transition? Simple forward planning is needed. We have the added situation in west Dublin where the NCSE was given information from the Dublin 15 primary principals network two or three years ago on the children who would need places.

I am very much focused on reform, as is the Minister of State. We have to be very honest about the scale of the reform required. We have already spoken about how SENOs provide families with lists of schools. In many cases, the lists in west Dublin were not up to date. In most cases, parents know more about what is happening in particular schools than the SENOs seems to know. One family told me the SENO asked them whether they would be willing to move house to secure a place. People have been asked whether they would accept a place in mainstream education. We know these are not the solutions that parents need to hear. The entire process of admissions cannot be parent led.

The Minister of State is looking at resources. With regard to reform, is there a model elsewhere that she is looking at from which we could learn? I know from the experience of friends and family in the North about the model there. There are link officers who seem to take direct control when it comes to finding placements for families. Do we have the structures and levers in place to do this? As has been discussed, schools seem to have more information. For this system to work, the SENO, or someone in an enhanced role, should find this information and be on the ground working with schools in knowing where the places are. If a school does not think it has a place this individual could come up with solutions. This has to be very much a direct role for someone who is far closer to the schools and their families than the SENOs are at present.

I am not saying this system in the North is perfect because I know it is not. However, an annual review is supposed to take place to see how a child is progressing, whether they are in the appropriate place and what other supports are available.

Currently, the problem is that we do not actually have that system and have not, therefore, even spoken today about the quality of the education and the individual education plans that children are supposed to have in schools. We are actually just at the point at which we are talking about having appropriate numbers of school places and special school classes. We still have not really focused on the issue of quality.

We need training. Schools tell me that when they open a class they get that training only once. It does not matter if there is a new member of staff, the staff will not get additional training when they join a special class. There is a huge amount of work to do, and I know the Minister of State is committed to reforming the system. I would really appreciate an update for the parents of Dublin West. Also, where is the Minister of State’s head at the moment regarding the reform?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will start with the issue of reform. I know we are firefighting here regarding the upcoming school year and I do not want us to be in this position again. Part of how we do that is through building the capacity of the NCSE and addressing the limitations in its resources. That is why, as I said, we are increasing the number of SENOs, reducing the administrative burden on them and reducing the geographical areas they have to cover so there can be more visibility and relationship-building on the ground.

I will go through the figures here. There was a meeting. I know that many of the parents are listening in because I told them about this in our private meeting and when I met them outside the Dáil last week. I meet with the NCSE every week. My commitment was to keep the parents informed through one point of contact within the NCSE who can talk to the parents on a weekly basis to keep them updated. I will not get this resolved in a matter of one or two weeks. I wish I could give that commitment, but I like to be honest with people.

Regarding today's update, officials in my Department met with the NCSE. The figures that are known to the NCSE in respect of the primary schools in Dublin 15 and the demand for places are as follows, and I will come back to the issue of the gap of information regarding what the schools know and what the NCSE knows. The demand for primary school places in Dublin 15 at the moment is 12 and there are 15 places available. The demand for post-primary places is nine, and there are 11 or 12 available.

The NCSE, as the Senator knows, called parents last week and it will do the same this week. Some parents may be under the impression that they would have been offered a place last week. That is not the space we are in right now. The NCSE is working with schools.

I will now come to the Senator’s point about the information. This is what I want to do on the reform piece. I want to close the gap here. I ask parents to make sure they are contacting the NCSE. Some parents are contacting the schools and I understand why they do that. It is okay to do that, but they should please contact the NCSE so it is aware of the children who require a school place in the coming school year in order that it can work with the schools to secure places.

An issue that came up, and this is part of the problem that needs to be reformed, is that some of the special places within schools that become available are already taken up from within the school. This is where the information gap arises because the NCSE may not know about that. It may be that four or five places have opened up in the school but the school has already earmarked those for existing pupils in that school. I know the parents who are listening know this. This is what came up in our conversations, but this is part of the reform that I want to address by next year. That is the role of the NCSE and it will do it through its increased resources.

I am doing everything I can to engage with and listen to the NCSE about its needs and how this is working and how it is not working. It will not work perfectly straight away, but I want there to be visibility on the ground. This is a matter of the NCSE going out to talk to parents so they will know exactly who their SENO is. The lines of communication will be open and they will know exactly who to contact.

I refer to the issue of forward planning, which the Senator raised. This is a matter of the Department working with the NCSE and those engagements with the school and school principals. As the Senator has told me, the principals have this information. They had it a couple of years ago and they relayed it. We have a new pathway forward for the NCSE, which now has the resources to respond to this. I will be all over this issue. I know that will be of cold comfort to parents who are listening in, because they will feel as though they have heard this before. I will work with the Senator because I know she is engaging with families directly.

Our meetings take place every week. We will never discuss individual cases here, but it is down to the level of individual pupils and the names of children trying to find a place, so parents can be reassured. I can promise that there will be one point of contact in the NCSE who will be engaging with the parents. I ask the parents to give me the space to work with them. I know they will not want to hear this, but they may not get the school place they want or the school they want for now. I want to move to a position where there will be a school and the NCSE can work with parents and the school so they can find that place with their siblings and do not have to be travel outside their area to find an appropriate school place. This is the work I am doing but there is a bit of firefighting at the moment.

I will continue to engage with the Senator and get the NCSE to engage with the parents. I will do whatever I can for the children, not just those in Dublin 15, but particularly in that area because it is one of the real hotspots in the country. Many of the other areas have been resolved. This will be my complete focus for the next couple of weeks in this regard.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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Can I clarify an issue? The Minister of State has identified 12 primary school children who need a place for September. She believes at this point that there are 15 available places. Is that correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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For primary, yes.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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For primary. There are nine at secondary level and the Minister of State believes there are 11 or 12 places. That information will go to the NCSE so it can update the parents.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is what the NSCE told my officials today. Parents will apply to numerous schools, and we all understand the reason for that. That is right across the board, so there will be a bit of flux in those figures. To answer the Senator’s question, the NCSE will be in contact with the parents and will update them weekly.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Paul Donnelly.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I want to follow on from Senator Currie’s questions about Dublin 15. I refer to the distress the parents are experiencing at the moment. Unfortunately, there will be no comfort for them until they get a place in a school. It is now three days away from the end of the school term and they do not have a place in a primary school.

Are the school places the Minister of State has just announced in Dublin 15, Dublin 7 or Dublin 11?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are all in Dublin 15.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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They are all in Dublin 15. If there are 11 or 12 places available, why have the parents not been told that? We know they are there.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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When places become available, the NCSE receives that information. For example, the NSCE will have information about primary schools in Dublin 15, that there is a demand for 12 places and that 15 places that are available. Of those 15 places - I will speak in general terms - let us say that ten, for example, could be already allocated within the school. Children in the school may need that special class. To answer the Deputy’s question, the NCSE needs to work through that in these particular schools to determine which of the places will be taken up by children who are already in the school and which of them are new places that can be allocated to some of those parents who are protesting outside.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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To be clear, the information the parents have sent to us is that many of those places are already gone; they have already been allocated.

It sounds like there are 15 or 11 places. The reality is there will not be because a lot of those places will be allocated to students who are already in that school. When parents are listening in here on this, there will be cold comfort because they know quite a number of those places have already been allocated to students in the existing school system. That is really concerning, considering how close we are.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will add to that. That is just today's update. There is movement on this daily so there will be more places. What the NCSE has said to me is the capacity is there to accommodate the children it is aware of. I know many of those parents have contacted the NCSE but if there are parents who have not, they should make the NCSE aware of any other children who may require a school place. This is changing on a daily basis. This is not it or the end of the story. There is constant daily contact with the NCSE and I have my weekly meetings as well. That is just today's update.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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Sure but what I cannot understand is this. Let us say we have had a week, from last week, when the Minister of State had a meeting with the parents, we met outside and had this discussion regarding the places. How long does it take to pick up a phone to a school to say it has a certain number of places in their school, and to ask has it allocated them to a particular student in the school or are they free? We are talking about 25 phone calls, which is, from what I can see, a maximum, where they would ask, "Are they available or not available?" and if they are available to students that are outside of the current cohort it has at the moment, then we have students here who are looking for that place. I find it quite incredible given that there is such a limited amount. We are not talking about hundreds here but a couple of dozen of phone calls being made to schools to say they have these places, and to ask if it is available or if it has been assigned to a student in the current cohort of that school. We have had seven days since that meeting last week, let alone the months we have had with regard to the NCSE's knowledge about their students - the likes of Bradley and Ruben, who I mentioned. There were a lot of names last week. These are two of the names I forgot to mention but I wanted to get them on the record as well. We know all of these people. It has been a solid week now and yet those parents cannot be called today to say that those places are either available or not available. I do not think that is acceptable.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is why I want to streamline the process, so the process does not take this long. The NCSE is engaging with the schools to try and bottom-out that exact question. The Deputy is asking-----

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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Genuinely, I am sitting here and I cannot for the life of me understand-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am telling the Deputy. That is what the NCSE is doing at the moment, every day, with schools in this particular area to try to determine what spaces are available. Some of the classes are just sanctioned and the schools need to work through the admissions process now. There is an admissions process in schools and they have to work through that admissions process. That is what the NCSE has to wait on as well. Schools have their own admissions policy that they have to work through, and that is part of the delay.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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Sure. I am not going to labour on it again because I think I have made my point on that.

On the appropriate school places, again, I have a message from a parent here, who is Bradley's parent. Since the meeting, they are still in the same position as last week. He is still in the same school and not achieving. They got two phone calls from the school saying it cannot meet his needs and it still does not have a place for September. They said that in his school report, it said he did not strive in any area. It is heartbreaking and they would not wish that on any parent and they believe that in an appropriate setting with appropriate supports, Bradley will thrive. His report was written by his deputy principal, who supported him.

What we are talking about here also - and I think it is really important that this is raised - is that it is an appropriate school place where the child will get the appropriate services. This feeds into the second question I want to ask, which is in regard to multidisciplinary teams. I worked in school completion for a good number of years. One of the biggest concerns we had, and why a lot of school places failed, was because the teachers in that school did their absolute best with special classes, and they did absolutely fantastic work but they did not get the support with regard to supporting those students. If we are talking about appropriate school places, it is not just a room. I think we all understand this. It is not just furniture, a lovely room or bean bags. It is getting the appropriate supports from the multidisciplinary teams that are able to go into that school and work with those students and the parents. I have seen it work, where the teachers who do incredible work when they get that extra support to help them support the students. It works absolutely fantastically.

As we go forward, I think there needs to be that model where teachers are supported to support the students, and the students then also get that support from the multidisciplinary teams. It fits into what parents are talking about, which is an appropriate school place for their children.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is exactly the reason I put the 44 therapists that were allocated to the NCSE on a permanent footing. They were not being hired because they had temporary contracts and that is exactly what they will be doing - going in, working with the teachers and collaborating with them. All the evidence points to a reduction in the need for additional supports in these schools, and better learning outcomes for the children. Obviously, the teachers are more equipped and the capacity-building is there within the school. This is the reform and where I want to move into. This is the space I am in. I am not happy we are here. It is not about me being happy - I know that - but I am doing everything I can to make sure. It is about the relationships as well, and about that information sharing, as Senator Currie highlighted. What the school knows and what the NCSE knows are two different things sometimes and that is the loop I want to solve, as well as the training and supports for teachers. We cannot expect teachers to walk into a class with additional needs without feeling they have the adequate training. There are supports available, and the NCSE and the Department will be providing that to teachers as well and schools on the ground, in order to roll out these classes.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Have we developed a model or a template as to how schools that have special classes should run? I do not think that, heretofore, there has been, and it is very dependent on the principal, and the principal decides what teacher goes into the class. Are we going to send out guidelines to schools with regard to what teachers teach in the special classes - that is, teachers with experience, so that we do not have the situation where it is someone coming straight from college without any experience who goes into that class? It is very dependent. Have we any template put together for schools?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Coming from my own teaching background, it is up to the board of management and the principal when they are hiring. You have the best interests of the child at heart in making sure you are putting the right expertise in, and making sure that training is provided for teachers where required.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, that is not happening in a lot of schools.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Brendan Doody might come in on this. There is probably more happening in this space.

Mr. Brendan Doody:

One of the things we are working on, and it is quite advanced at this stage, is guidance for schools on reviewing placements in special classes. With regard to opening a special class, I will put it like this. A young person, a child, could be enrolled in an early-intervention class at the age of two years and eight months. They can progress to a special class in a primary school and spend eight years there. They can progress to a post-primary special class and spend a further six years there, so they can spend their entire education career, if you like, in a special class, and I do not think anybody would agree that is ideal. We want young people to avail of mainstream provision to the greatest extent possible.

When you open a special class, you get guidelines from the NCSE. One of the things referenced in the guidelines is that you should review placements regularly. What we now understand and are working towards is making sure schools have a much better understanding of the purpose of the placement review, how to do it, what the indicators of progress are, and then to support schools to make really good decisions around the placement of that young person. It may be, for example, that while in the equivalent of junior and senior infants that child spends most of their time in the special class placement itself, we are working towards building mainstream engagement over first and second class. We have quite a number of examples of this where, by fifth or sixth class or into the post-primary age, they may not necessarily require the support of the special class into the future.

We are working to finalise that at this point and we hope to have it out early in the next school year.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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In some cases, kids may be in mainstream but then step back into the special class setting. We need guidelines there for all schools rather than led by the management because sometimes it is not what it should be.

I compliment the Minister of State. I know she is a colleague of mine. She has been excellent in the role since she took on the position.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question on the template. In the last 24 or 48 hours I have been advised of a special class in a primary school. It was redesignated as a special class. The six kids in the class could have stayed in that for an extra year. The board of management took a decision to redesignate it so that the six kids could stay in place, but the patron overruled the board of management. That meant that one of the kids would need to leave and find an alternative placement. I might forward the specifics on it directly to the Minister of State. The board of management is the Department's point of contact. Are there many instances where the patrons, whoever they may be, are overruling board of management decisions on the classification of special classes? Does the Department have any evidence of that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will let Mr. McLoughlin respond.

Mr. Martin McLoughlin:

We actually find the opposite. We work very well with many school patrons and we find that patrons are very supportive of our and the NCSE's efforts to get schools to open special classes. If the example the Cathaoirleach mentioned is the one I am thinking of, the NCSE was due to meet the school involved to try to get agreement.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach can send us the details privately.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I know the NCSE met the board of management of one school in County Cork. It has special classes associated with a primary school but it wanted to build a special school on the campus. In my experience and from evidence we are getting, I know there is a chronic shortage with kids from Cork having to go to Limerick, Kerry and Tipperary. Is the NCSE due to make any decisions in the not-too-distant future about the provision of extra special schools? This school was prepared to put the building on the exact same site. It would need to go through the process of planning and all the rest of it. There might be an option to get it up and running with temporary modular units in the short term to alleviate the current crisis. I ask the Minister of State to come back to me on that.

I am glad the Minister of State mentioned the review of the devices. Some of the schools I deal with certainly have difficulties with the devices. I would be very interested in seeing that.

There are special language schools in Killarney and Mallow. Kids in between are travelling up to 45 minutes in both directions. I know that a school recently approached the Department or the NCSE about the possibility of opening language classes within the school. I am not sure who they should have approached directly. I ask the Minister of State to update us on that. I will get her the specifics on that. I do not want to put it on the record because it might not have been discussed with the school community yet. I will get those specifics for the Minister of State.

I am very enthused by the energy the Minister of State has shown this evening regarding her brief, which is very challenging. She has not skirted around anything and she has said it as it is. It is encouraging to see that. There are enormous challenges in trying to accommodate people. The first thing to do is to acknowledge the scale of it and then try to fight for funding. Attitudes seem to have changed certainly at primary school level in recent years, but there is a long way to go. I encourage the Minister of State to keep up the good work and I thank her for appearing before the committee this evening.

I think there are more non-members at this meeting than we have ever seen - I believe five non-members - which shows the interest of public representatives and also the challenges on the ground. Families are at breaking point.

Some families may have been allocated a residential placement because of the specific needs of a child. As they may be moving from outside their own locality, they now have a major challenge in trying to get a place in a special school in September. I thought that if the HSE or the State were providing a residential place, a school place should follow with it. The Minister of State might comment on that.

I call Deputy Ó Murchú before we go back to the Minister of State.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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These issues may have been brought up. I brought up an issue with the school building programme relating to autism classes with the Minister of State which has been sorted to a degree for next year. However, if the build had happened much earlier, we would not have had the issues because the plans had proposed two autism classes and some other facilities. Principals and others have complained about the need to go through the Department and through a consultant. They do not have the sort of hands-on control they had previously in organising these things. When they fall behind it can mean that suddenly the target of next September becomes the September after that.

A lot has been said about the issue relating to the NCSE. While adequate resources have been allocated there, are we reviewing the process for parents looking for places? For the parents of kids with autism or any other additional needs, could we consider a two-year lead-in for admissions? We need something that makes this a bit easier. It would also facilitate the schools and everyone else to have all those pieces in place.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has just encompassed what others have said about not being in this position in the run-up to September and October, the new school year, by having advance notice of a year or two. Senator Currie spoke earlier about parents who knew the children who are coming through to school in the next year or two. I have met parents who want to plan now for their child starting primary school in three years' time. They want to start having these conversations early because they do not want to be one of those parents, such as those in Dublin 15 who are now traumatised, stressed and going through enormous anxiety. That is what I mean when I talk about reform. This will take time but I am on a fast train to try to remedy this for next year.

The Deputy asked about the school building. Is it about that specific school?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is not.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is the forward planning.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is the forward planning. At times there seems to be a hold-up even when plans are in place. Sometimes, the school authorities will say they do not have the same sort of power or whatever and need to go through the Department, consultants and whatever else, meaning that time gets lost.

Mr. Martin McLoughlin:

We meet the planning and building unit every week to discuss the forward planning piece. The 80 or 90 school building projects that were announced recently involve 138 special classes.

We work closely with them on the forward planning. For any extension or new school build, we apply a special education lens to them to make sure that special classes are built into them to provide for children into the future.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would be grateful if someone could come back to me on the De La Salle secondary school in Dundalk in respect of the actual building.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy Ó Murchú. I think he has-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach asked about co-location of special schools with mainstream schools. We have examples of special schools being located on the same site as mainstream schools. This facilitates integration and inclusion of all students. Templeogue College and Libermann Spiritan School are examples.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Were the patrons the diocese in those instances?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Spiritans, yes.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to follow through on the patronage issue. I will talk to the Deputy directly on this because I know the NCSE has been involved. I thank everyone for their contributions. There is a lot of work to do but I acknowledge the sincerity of those involved. It has been a long session this evening. Our meeting stands adjourned until tomorrow at 5 p.m. That may change, subject to my availability, but we will let people know early tomorrow afternoon.