Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Imelda Munster, Marc Ó Cathasaigh and Cormac Devlin. I welcome everyone. I remind all in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or are on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218, that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Furthermore, it is not the role of the committee to make findings of fact about a person who is not a Member of the Oireachtas that could impinge on their good name or reputation. I ask members to be mindful of this in their examination of the issues in question this morning. Members and witnesses should also refrain from commenting on matters that may now be subject of a live criminal investigation.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Mr. Mark Brady, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning we are engaging with representatives from Horse Racing Ireland and the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board to examine the following matters: financial statements 2022 - Horse Racing Ireland; and financial statements 2022 - Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. We are joined by the following representatives from Horse Racing Ireland: Ms Suzanne Eade, chief executive officer; Mr. John Osborne, director of equine welfare and blood stock; and Ms Claire Rudd, head of risk and compliance. We are joined by the following representatives from the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board: Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin, chief executive officer; and Dr. Lynn Hillyer, chief veterinary officer and head of equine anti-doping. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary, finance and central procurement; Mr. Michael Sheahan, deputy chief veterinary officer; and Ms Annamarie McNally, assistant principal horse and greyhound racing and Teagasc. The witnesses are very welcome.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh.

Horse Racing Ireland was established as a statutory agency for the control, regulation and development of the horse racing industry in Ireland. It operates racing and tote activities through eight active subsidiary companies and licenses horse racing at other privately owned tracks. HRI also has a minority shareholding in Curragh Racecourse Limited.

HRI received State funding of €70.4 million in 2022, sourced from the horse and greyhound racing fund. Its other main sources of income in the year were: race entry fees and sponsorships earmarked for racing prize money, totalling €25.6 million; media payments of €7 million; registration fees totalling €2.6 million; and net income from racing arising from tote and HRI-owned racecourses of €1.6 million.

On the expenditure side in 2022, HRI paid out €68.2 million in prize money. Expenditure of €16.7 million was incurred on "integrity and racecourse services", mainly representing grants to the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. Overall, the HRI group incurred a deficit for 2022 of €5.7 million. Its net assets amounted to €111 million as at the end of that year.

The 2022 financial statements received an unqualified opinion, but I drew attention to the disclosure in the group statement of income and expenditure of a loss of €1.4 million in 2022, relating to Horse Racing Ireland’s investment in Curragh Racecourse Limited. CRL was established to provide for the redevelopment and management of the Curragh racecourse, in a joint venture involving HRI, the Turf Club and a number of private investors. As at 31 December 2022, HRI held a 35.29% economic share in the racecourse. As explained in notes 36 and 38 of the group financial statements, HRI has provided equity investment and grant funding totalling almost €36 million to CRL up to the end of 2022. A further €0.5 million was paid for the right to use a hospitality suite at the Curragh for 30 years and there were two small loans from HRI outstanding at the year end.

In 2020, HRI entered into a new €9 million convertible loan agreement with CRL. As at 31 December 2022, €8.24 million had been transferred to CRL. The maturity date on the loan was 31 January 2024 and under the terms of the loan agreement, the loan was convertible into shares on that date, at CRL's discretion. That option was exercised by CRL and HRI's economic interest in the company increased to 37.4%, from that conversion.

The Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board is a company limited by guarantee. The board was established by the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee, with effect from 1 January 2018, for the purpose of carrying out the regulatory and licensing functions for Irish horse racing, as provided for in the Horse Racing Ireland Act 2016. The members of the board are appointed by the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee. The board has a number of statutory functions, including: responsibility for making and enforcing of the rules of racing, provision of integrity services for horse racing; licensing of all participants in horse racing in Ireland; and doping control, forensic testing and handicapping in respect of horse racing.

The board received funding of €12.3 million from HRI in 2022. This accounted for 88% of its income in the year. The board also received €1.3 million in licensing income, collected on its behalf by HRI from trainers and jockeys. Overall, IHRB operates on a financial break-even basis. In 2022, it expended €8.5 million on integrity services and €3.8 million on administrative expenses.

The 2022 financial statements received a clear audit opinion. Without qualifying that opinion, I drew attention in my report to a financial governance issue disclosed in note 18 to the financial statements, which deals with related party transactions. The note discloses that €350,000 was transferred from the jockeys' emergency fund, a charity bank account under the control of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, to the board’s own bank account in January 2022. The funds were subsequently repaid by the board to the same charity account in April 2022.

Note 24 and the statement on internal control report that concerns arose in June 2023 about the financial governance of those transactions and that an independent external review of those concerns and certain other matters was ongoing in March 2024 when the board's audited financial statements for 2022 were being finalised. The board's chief executive officer will be able to update the committee on progress with that review.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I invite Ms Eade to make her opening statement on behalf of HRI.

Ms Suzanne Eade:

I thank the Chair and members of the committee. I am grateful to be given the opportunity to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts to assist with its examination of the 2022 financial statements of Horse Racing Ireland. I am the chief executive of HRI. Joining me today are Ms Claire Rudd, HRI’s head of risk and compliance, and Mr. John Osborne, HRI’s director of equine welfare and bloodstock.

HRI is a commercial semi-State body responsible to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, having been established under the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. HRI is responsible for the overall administration, governance, development, and promotion of the Irish horseracing industry and we proudly do so on an all-island basis. The industry generates €2.4 billion for the economy annually and supports over 30,000 jobs directly and indirectly, the majority of which are based in rural Ireland. This means that the Government’s annual investment in the industry provides a 35-fold return to the Irish economy.

Ireland is seen internationally as a global leader in horse racing and breeding, and thoroughbreds owned, bred and trained in Ireland compete at the highest level on the world stage. We saw an example of this earlier in the month when Irish-trained horses prevailed in two of the world’s greatest races, the Derby and the Oaks at Epsom. This came just weeks after incredible Irish success at Cheltenham and Aintree. Our champion trainer, Willie Mullins, became the first non-British-based trainer since Vincent O'Brien 70 years ago to be crowned Britain’s champion national hunt trainer, a measure of Ireland’s success on both sides of the Irish Sea.

Government policy and legislation over many decades has put structures in place which have not only protected this 32-county industry but have also allowed Ireland to compete at the highest levels in world racing, while enabling vital and sustainable rural-based employment throughout the country. HRI and the entire horse racing and breeding industry are very grateful to successive Governments and the Oireachtas for their continued support through the horse and greyhound fund.

Before I come to the financial statements, it is very important to address the "RTÉ Investigates" programmes which were broadcast last week. On behalf of HRI, its board, the chairman and all our staff, I would like to say how deeply disgusted and appalled we are at what we saw in the programmes. The behaviour depicted was abhorrent and is absolutely not the experience of those working directly in the horse racing and breeding industry. We welcome the swift response from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We will fully support any Garda and Department of agriculture investigations, and we eagerly await their conclusion.

Equine safety and care is our top priority. Our budget accounts for €7 million annual expenditure on welfare for 2024. This is in addition to our welfare-related capital projects in recent years, such as CCTV provision on our 25 racecourses, traceability enhancements within our racing system, RÁS, together with grant aid for racecourses for welfare measures. In May, we announced a further €1 million funding in the next phase of a capital development scheme to further enhance equine safety at our racecourses. We also fund IHRB’s integrity services, which includes both raceday and out of competition veterinary inspections, and the IHRB’s best-practice anti-doping programme.

We work with organisations such as the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and Treo Eile which connect, support and promote thoroughbreds as they transition after their racing career. We provide education and training to industry participants, and held our first welfare symposium in May, which brought together stakeholders from across the sector to discuss the way ahead for equine safety and care. We consider the sharing of information, experiences and best practice across the entire industry to be key to achieving excellence in equine welfare.

The topic of traceability was also covered in the "RTÉ Investigates" programmes, and meaningful progress has been made in recent years. In 2021, Ireland was the first country in the EU to implement e-passports for thoroughbreds. These e-passports are a digital lifetime document which track the horse’s vaccines and medical records, ownership and movement. They contain five layers of identification, including the horse’s microchip number and, since 2001, DNA analysis. The first phase of a central traceability system for thoroughbreds has been built by Weatherbys, the organisation authorised to issue thoroughbred passports in Ireland and the UK. The next phase, which will go live next year, will connect different strands of data in one central database so that we can identify a horse’s whereabouts at key life cycle events. In addition, we are working with the equine liaison group, organised through the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, on joined-up process mapping of all horse management, movement and control to enhance traceability and identify any potential data gaps. Whole-of-life traceability is an ongoing priority and we will continue to work with our colleagues in the Department and across the industry to enhance our systems and protocols.

In December 2023, we published HRI’s sustainability strategy, Racing towards a better world, which will continue to deliver on our responsibilities in respect of climate change concerns in line with the Government’s climate action plan. HRI is committed to fostering an industry-wide culture of sustainability. We also want to support the industry to increase its understanding and delivery of sustainability priorities through practical measures and financial supports, where possible. To achieve this, HRI will continuously share our learnings with industry stakeholders.

This April, we launched the strategic plan 2024-28 which outlines the ambition we have for the industry. This strategy provides the industry with a roadmap which will support people both working and investing into our industry. Beyond that, this strategy protects our horses, our environment and Ireland’s position as the epicentre of the thoroughbred industry well into the future. Our remit is to develop racing and breeding in Ireland, and our aim is to grow the contribution the industry makes to Irish communities from €2.4 billion currently to €3 billion by 2028. Driving long-term financial sustainability for the industry will stimulate expenditure and grow job opportunities, particularly in rural Ireland, and achieving this €3 billion figure is very much within reach by maximising all revenue streams. To nurture success, we aim to deliver on major capital projects within the lifetime of the strategic plan, which includes a people campus – an education and training facility with programmes and expertise designed to upskill those aspiring to a career in the wider thoroughbred industry. The targets in our strategic plan foresee a growing industry, one which will seek not just to attract the best talent from Ireland, but also to develop the country as a global centre of excellence for industry education and training.

The development of a new all-weather track at Tipperary Racecourse will create domestic opportunities at all levels of the industry as well as providing the marketplace for Irish racing to grow its annual foreign direct investment, which is currently estimated to be more than €550 million per annum. With only one all-weather track currently, Irish racing lags behind its international competitors. Given that almost half of the 550 licensed trainers in Ireland are based within neighbouring counties to Tipperary, this facility when developed will provide much-needed regional balance.

Our industry statistics from 2023 point to a stable industry. The number of horses in training increased. This is a key figure when it comes to assessing rural employment in the industry. Attendances in 2023 were marginally down on 2022, with minor reductions also recorded in the number of entries, figures that might have been expected in light of the cost-of-living crisis prevailing throughout that year. That said, racing continues to deliver superb sporting occasions showcasing the best of our industry and sport.

Finally, I wish to share with the committee that we have worked collaboratively with the IHRB over the past 12 months on significant transformational change within the IHRB in the areas of HR, IT and financial governance. This will allow the IHRB to focus on its core functions as a regulator and will provide HRI and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine reassurance that the governance matters as highlighted by IHRB will be adequately resourced and addressed. We take governance maters relating to Exchequer funding very seriously and we are satisfied that adequate governance and compliance processes and systems have been developed and are being implemented. I thank the committee for the invitation to appear, and we look forward to taking questions on the accounts or any other maters concerning the racing and breeding industry.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

On behalf of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, I thank members for the invitation to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts to discuss our 2022 financial statements, alongside our colleagues from Horse Racing Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I am joined by my colleague Dr. Lynn Hillyer, IHRB's chief veterinary officer.

The IHRB is the independent, internationally recognised racing regulatory body for horse racing across the island of Ireland, an industry that supports more than 30,000 jobs and contributes €2.46 billion to the economy. Under the Horse Racing Ireland Act 2016, the IHRB is solely and independently responsible for making and enforcing the rules of racing, licensing all participants and regulating horse racing, including anti-doping and handicapping. The IHRB provides professional officials and volunteer race day stewards for all race meetings in Ireland to ensure that the rules are properly observed, and the integrity of the sport is maintained. In 2022, the IHRB oversaw a combined 482 race fixtures across the 32 counties in flat, national hunt and point-to-point racing, with 39,825 runners in total. The corresponding figures for 2023 were 38,601 runners across 483 fixtures.

Governance is a key pillar of the IHRB’s strategy for 2024 to 2027, published late last year. The strategy commits us to consistently applying a robust governance framework and rigorous probity regime. The board of the IHRB is made up of eight directors, currently four male and four female. To improve board diversity and independence, the IHRB amended its constitution in 2022 to provide for the appointment of independent directors. Following an extensive recruitment process, two independent directors were appointed at year end and took office at the beginning of 2023.

The IHRB’s horse racing integrity services funding comes via Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and we meet with them at least quarterly to ensure transparency and oversight of spending under the agreed budget. In mid-2023, a significantly revised and strengthened service level agreement, governing the provision and use of funding for horse racing integrity services was agreed between HRI and the IHRB and we continue to operate within the funding parameters agreed with HRI. Any reallocation of funding must be agreed with HRI and disclosed in the IHRB financial statements, as must severance scheme proposals prior to the circulation of terms to staff or representatives. The IHRB believes that our funding ought to be directed, as far as possible, towards our core functions of integrity, rider safety, equine welfare and licensing. However, other obligations relating to governance and probity must be met. These require significant resourcing to ensure they are delivered and reported to the expected standard. The IHRB is committed to effective joint working with HRI and efficient delivery of shared objectives. To that end, we have put in place a joint IT strategy and are exploring a shared services approach to key support functions such as finance, HR, procurement and compliance. This will realise gains in capacity, effectiveness and resilience, and eliminate key person dependencies.

As the committee will recall, the board became aware on 28 June 2023 of an issue relating to financial governance which had occurred in early 2022. This was immediately disclosed to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Comptroller and Auditor General and Horse Racing Ireland. The issue concerned a transfer of €350,000 which was made in January 2022 from the jockeys emergency fund, a charity bank account administered by the IHRB, to the IHRB’s bank account. This was subsequently reversed in April 2022. The transfer is disclosed in the notes to the financial statements. The professional services firm Mazars was engaged to carry out an independent review of this and other financial governance matters. The review, which involves detailed scrutiny of six years’ worth of financial and other records as well as interviews with relevant individuals, commenced at the end of August 2023 and a final report is expected shortly. Pending receipt of the Mazars report, the auditors examined banking transactions for the financial year 2022 and confirmed that the highlighted transfer of €350,000 was an isolated incident. When the final report is received from Mazars, it is the intention of the directors of the IHRB that the findings will be published and the recommendations will be acted on.

In the meantime, formal agreements are being put in place between the IHRB and the various charitable and non-profit entities for which administrative support is provided, along with written policies and procedures clearly defining roles and responsibilities, strict transaction approval controls and segregation of accounts access. We will also implement any further measures which are identified by Mazars to ensure the necessary governance structures and policies are put in place and financial controls enhanced.

The equine anti-doping programme remains a top priority for the IHRB and, after payroll, is our most significant area of expenditure. Our equine anti-doping strategy continues to evolve and operates on a sophisticated risk and intelligence basis, backed by rigorous processes of investigation and follow-through in the event of an adverse analytical finding. IHRB teams took 5,403 samples from horses in 2022 and 5,866 in 2023. These were analysed at LGC Labs in Newmarket, England, one of only six International Federation of Horseracing Authorities, IFHA, recognised reference laboratories worldwide, and resulted in 11 adverse findings in 2022 and six in 2023. This year, we also launched a joint anti-doping initiative with the British Horseracing Authority, which saw approximately 250 samples, both blood and hair, taken from more than 120 horses across 14 premises in advance of the Cheltenham festival. An independent review of the anti-doping programme by renowned global expert Dr. Craig Suann, published in April 2022, confirmed that the IHRB programme at least matches international best practice, and it made recommendations to enhance it further.

The Suann review recommended that CCTV cameras be installed in the sampling units of each racecourse. The IHRB accepted that recommendation and installed CCTV in sampling units with the roll-out of CCTV across Ireland’s 25 permanent racecourses. The other recommendations are in the process of being implemented, subject to availability of resources.

In October 2022, we established the equine injury in Irish racing risk reduction project to identify, understand and mitigate risk factors for racing-related equine injuries. The aim of the project is to identify and implement measures to reduce the risk of injury to horses in racing.

To enhance transparency, we will shortly begin monthly publication of anti-doping activity on our website, including details of horses which have been the subject of an adverse finding.

I again thank the Chair for the invitation to appear and for the committee's attention this morning. Dr. Hillyer and I are happy to answer any questions members may have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have two people from the IHRB, Mr. O'Loughlin and the chief veterinary officer. We do not have a chief financial officer. Why is that?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

That is correct. The chief financial officer remains on leave. We have had the support of the head of finance of HRI, who has been seconded over the course of the past year. He is on annual leave with his family. Our CFO remains on leave and is unavailable to us.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As I recall, the IHRB was before this committee on 29 June 2023. The CFO was due in and cancelled the night before. We got notice the night before. Is my memory correct on that?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There was a no-show 12 months ago and there is a no-show again today. Who is the current financial officer?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The individual remains in our employment as CFO but, in his absence, we have had the support of-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If he is in the board's employment, is he on leave for something?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

He is.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask what type of leave? Is it sick leave or holidays?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

As an employer, we have a duty of care to our employees not to divulge personal information.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want Mr. O'Loughlin to go into great detail; I just want to know the type of leave.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I have been advised that as an employer, it would be divulging personal information if I were to answer that question.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is he on pay?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

He is on pay.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The acting CFO is on holidays.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is unsatisfactory.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for joining us. My first question is for Ms Eade, if that is appropriate, and is on the overall health and well-being of HRI.

Has Horse Racing Ireland's income fully recovered at this point in the post-Covid era when compared with its pre-Covid income?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

In overall terms, with people attending racing again, entries are strong and sponsorship has started to come back. The year 2022 was the first more normalised year for us as regards income streams. In 2024, the hardest thing is media rights. There is gambling legislation in the UK and the affordability checks and international revenues related to that have been more of a challenge to us in the current year but we are on track.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Has there been any legacy long-term reduction in the general number attending race meetings across the country arising from the Covid pandemic? Are those numbers fully recovered at this point?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

We have had to work very hard. From a marketing point of view, we put a lot more investment into getting people to come back to racing. People got very comfortable watching racing on TV. All our fixtures are televised. The team has definitely had to work harder to encourage having a great day out. It has not quite hit the peak we were at. There was a slight dip last year. Things like the weather for flat racing are also a factor. When people are choosing whether to go to a race, they take a look at the weather first. On the jump side, people go in all weathers but they are a bit more choosy on the flat side.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Approximately what element of Horse Racing Ireland's annual revenue accrues from gambling?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

We run the Tote business, which effectively provides the ability to do pool betting at the track. Tote Ireland's topline turnover is €68 million but it is quite expensive to deliver that service with people at the track. The other funding that comes into HRI is linked to media rights rather than actual betting. We do not get anything directly. Any funding that we collect on-track through the betting levy goes to the racecourses.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is the proliferation of online gambling on various devices and its ongoing increase beginning to impact on HRI's bottom line as an organisation?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

With regard to the Tote, yes. Online availability is a growing element of where people are placing their bets. The Tote is not able to compete with some of the bigger bookmakers, which have a lot more resources to invest in that side of things. A couple of years ago, we created an alliance with the UK Tote to provide good platforms for people who might want to bet carefully online with our Tote products.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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In recent times, HRI has consistently cited a report by Frontier Economics that outlines that the Gambling Regulation Bill could lead to a €30 million reduction in its revenue over a five-year period. Does HRI still stand over that figure? How does it intend to deal with that reduction in revenue? It is inevitable that the legislation will pass. It is important legislation for public health. How does HRI intend to deal with it? In media reports, it has consistently cited this research by a third party, Frontier Economics. While one might argue it is somewhat biased in forming its opinions, it has concluded that there is going to be a €30 million reduction in revenue to HRI over a five-year period. Does HRI still stand over that figure and how does it intend to deal with that reduction in revenue?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

I will have to find out about that. I have never quoted that research by Frontier Economics. I will get some information on that.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Moving quickly on to the Curragh Racecourse, at what point does HRI expect Curragh Racecourse Limited to become profitable?

Ms Suzanne Eade:

On the occasions when I have appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts and the Oireachtas joint committee, I have said it is going to be difficult for it to be profitable in the next few years with the level of investment in the infrastructure. However, I am pleased to say that, with the plans that have been put in place, it is generating a cash profit so there is no drain on HRI from the racecourse. The racecourse itself has delivered a magnificent facility for the industry, for flat racing and for international visitors. I am also really happy with the work the company has done and how it is contributing to the local community. In the short term, cash profits will continue to grow. The work the company has done in getting investment from the World Pool has been very important for its big races. It is bringing in more foreign direct income for the Curragh. The problem is that the building, the facilities, the plant and the equipment on site have depreciated greatly. That is hard to turn around in the short term. I see there being a comment in our accounts for the next few years as to the Curragh's profits. With the ambitions the CEO has for the Curragh Racecourse, I expect to see the cash profit growing. The important thing to note about the Curragh is that every race run there is sponsored. The racecourse CEO is investing money back into the industry by contributing a far larger amount to prize money. HRI and the industry are gaining a lot from how it is choosing to invest its funding. There are swings and roundabouts. It is disappointing that we are not seeing profits in the short term but we are seeing cash profits and lots of investment back into the industry.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Ms Eade does not expect it to become profitable for quite a few years to come.

Ms Suzanne Eade:

Yes, that is true.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is the ongoing financial support HRI is making available to the racecourse in order for it to continue functioning at the expense of other racecourses? For example, by-----

Ms Suzanne Eade:

No. The last element of the investment into the Curragh Racecourse was the conversion of the loan, which we signalled would convert into shares. I do not expect any drain on HRI. The racecourse will get the same opportunities when we run welfare programmes or capital investment programmes. We will treat every racecourse equally in that respect.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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We were all deeply disturbed by the excellent "RTÉ Investigates" documentary on the horrific maltreatment of innocent animals and the fraudulent moving of identities for profit and gain. I believe I am representative of the public in general in being somewhat confused as to the roles, responsibilities and remits of Horse Racing Ireland, the IHRB and the Department of agriculture. Will Ms Eade quickly outline where the responsibility for protecting equine welfare resides? From a legislative perspective, it ultimately resides within the Department but how does that translate into the work and responsibilities of HRI and the IHRB? I would just like the public to be aware of how the triumvirate works as regards equine welfare.

Ms Suzanne Eade:

If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask Mr. O'Loughlin to talk about the role of the IHRB and then I will ask Mr. Osborne to talk about HRI's role. He can bring a lot more colour to it than I can. Perhaps the Department will respond on its side, if that is okay.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is perfect.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The IHRB has responsibility for the welfare and safety of all participants in racing during their racing careers. That includes the horses. From the time a horse first enters training and begins its racing career, it is notified on the official racing system, RÁS, as being in training. A trainer registers that horse as being in training with him. From that point until the end of the horse's racing career, when it has run its last race and is no longer being trained for subsequent races, the IHRB has responsibility for its welfare and safety.

For that period, the IHRB has responsibility for the welfare and safety of that horse. We carry out our obligations under this responsibility through pre-race examinations of horses on the racecourse, through our suitability to race programme, which involves examination or inspection of horses on the owner's own premises. Our chief veterinary office, Dr. Hillyer, and her team, check every horse on race day. They trot them up and observe them before they run in a race. When it is not race day, that i s, during out-of-competition days, Dr. Hillyer's team inspects trainers' licensed premises. While the team is there, it will overlook all of the horses. It will identify them to make sure that the horses that should be there are in fact there and it will make sure that every horse that is there has been registered as being there.

Does Dr. Hillyer want to expand on that?

Dr. Lynn Hillyer:

No, Mr. O'Loughlin has covered it.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The role of the IHRB is specifically during the racing career of the animal. Is that correct?

Dr. Lynn Hillyer:

Yes.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Once that concludes, the IHRB has no further role in equine welfare?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is not open to us to take on a role outside of what is provided for in the legislation and our mandate.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Okay, I thank Mr. O'Loughlin. When does HRI's remit begin and when does it conclude?

Mr. John Osborne:

Our role is the promotion and development of horse racing on the island of Ireland. Our direct involvement in the care of the horses relies largely on the responsibility which the owners have to their horses. We have developed an ecosystem which attracts investment and rewards success. We still rely on owners to take responsibility for their animals throughout their lives, which can-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Can I just stop Mr. Osborne there? Is he saying that HRI relies almost wholly on the owners to act responsibly and that HRI has no oversight?

Mr. John Osborne:

It is not oversight, as such. We have encouraged investment but we have not stepped into the breach in respect of the care and responsibility for individual horses on a day-to-day basis. We are not in a position to be that organisation. Some owners may take ill of the old slogan about a puppy being for life, not just for Christmas. In the case of horses, the responsibility for care on a day-to-day basis is down to the owner. We have tried to assist with this. Our function in the welfare space relies on the three pillars that we work towards. These are traceability, standards and safety nets. The Deputy will be familiar with traceability. We are very confident about our standards of care in the context of the care of racehorses throughout their lives from birth to the end of their racing careers. The safety-nets element considers what can happen to racehorses when their racing careers are over. That is why we have been so active in supporting Treo Eile, a not-for-profit organisation which promotes and facilitates second careers for racehorses. We also support the Irish Horse Welfare Trust, IHWT, which positions itself to rescue the small number of animals. At the moment it has ten thoroughbreds in its care out of a population of some 40,000 thoroughbreds on the island.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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To be clear, does HRI legally have a remit in terms of animal welfare? From his response, Mr. Osborne seems to be trying to keep this at arm's length from his organisation. He has said that it is the responsibility of the owners and HRI has no real oversight in the matter. If that is the case, so be it, but it is not my understanding. As a member of the public and the Oireachtas, I would have imagined that Horse Racing Ireland - the entity responsible for the industry and positioning Ireland, quite rightly, as a global exemplar in managing the equine industry - should have a far more hands-on approach to equine welfare, rather than just saying it is the owners' responsibility and that it funds a charity for the end of life of horses. What is the function of the microchipping and the passporting of horses if it does not have, at some point, a role in welfare? Are these just animals to be taken into the industry?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do you want to get the official numbers?

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am just a bit mystified as to what exactly the role of HRI is in this regard.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just a minute, Deputy, your are over time. We want to try to get a response to this. Mr. Osborne gave his response. The best thing is to ask Mr. Sheahan from the Department.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Okay, if Mr. Sheahan can bring some clarity that would be wonderful.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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He is the deputy chief veterinary officer. Mr. Sheahan might answer briefly, please.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

As some of the earlier speakers have said, various people have responsibility, individual owners and the IHRB in the case of horses. In the greyhound world, Greyhound Racing Ireland has certain responsibilities. Ultimately, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the Department with overall responsibility for animal welfare from a legal and enforcement point of view. Much of our animal welfare legislation comes from the EU but a certain amount of it is national legislation, including the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013. Many people have responsibility but ultimately, we in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have overall policy responsibility when it comes to animal welfare.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And for oversight of it?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I wanted to clarify that it is not just policy but also oversight.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes, oversight and enforcement. Obviously there are others as well, such as the Garda ,but ultimately it is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for clarifying that.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Sheahan saying that HRI has no remit for equine welfare?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not saying it has no remit. In my experience of working with HRI over the last number of years, it has played a very progressive role in trying to promote improved animal welfare in the industry. It does not have a role, as such, in enforcing legislation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I think that is clarified. Deputy Catherine Murphy has ten minutes.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

At the time we had controls involving two signatures being required for any transaction to be processed through the bank. We had payment, transaction and financial management policies and so on in the IHRB for our staff to comply with. We had an expectation-----

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Since then, we have tightened up on our financial controls. We have implemented transaction limits such that any payment must now be signed off by two members of senior management. For any payment above €25,000, one of the signatories must be the head of finance or me, the CEO. The CEO must sign off on any sums larger than €100,000.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I am conscious of the fact that the report from Mazars has not yet been provided to us in final form. It will deal with all of those issues.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I would only be speculating if I was to answer questions before Mazars had provided us with the answers.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

We have had draft reports from the firm as a way of keeping track of the progress of the review but we have not yet been provided with the final report.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

As the committee knows, when this issue arose, I only found out about it two days before the committee meeting. The board of the IHRB discussed it only the day before the last committee meeting. I share the Deputy's frustration and I am equally dissatisfied.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Because this had arisen, naturally I wanted to be satisfied, as did the board, that all of our financial governance was appropriate since the organisation came into being at the beginning of 2018. Mazars has been tasked with examining all of our financial governance controls and all of our transactions and financial records going all the way back to the first day of operation of the IHRB.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The same procedure applies for any anybody wanting to operate any food business in Ireland. They make an application to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. In the case of a slaughter plant they would have to provide drawings and outlines of the process-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is my understanding that for most activities to do with slaughter plants somebody cannot have had a conviction in the previous three years. That is my understanding of it.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am aware of that. There was a prosecution brought by the Garda, as I understand it in 2012.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It may have raised a flag but it would not legally prevent somebody from being a director of a company. That is my understanding. Again, I am not a legal expert.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will not be able to give a quick answer to this. Perhaps the Chairman might indulge me and allow me time to answer. This is probably a kind of question that lots of people-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I put it to Mr. Sheahan that the question is straightforward. The Deputy is asking if, in view of the fact that there were historical incidents that may have had a bearing on some of this, was the Department not on high alert? What was the Department doing and what measures was it putting in place. I believe this is what the Deputy is asking.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will try to answer as briefly as I can. If you were to ask me even three weeks ago what were standards like within the slaughter plant in Straffan I would say that standards were very good within this slaughter plant in Straffan. The plant operates one day a week. We have a veterinary presence and technical officers present on the day when slaughter happens. The animals come into the plant-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I did. It was horrific.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No. I will just clarify and for the avoidance of any doubt, I watched the programme. I was actually on holidays abroad when I watched it. It was one of the most sickening things I have ever seen. This is just for the avoidance of any doubt. It was horrific. For clarity, what was shown on the programme did not happen within the slaughter plant. For some people that is a technicality but it is an important point. The horrific footage happened on the farm beside the plant.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No. I am just saying that within the slaughter plant that is the plant under our supervision - whether people like to hear this or not - our experience over many years of dealing with this plant is that the horses that arrive into this plant are in good condition. This is not a plant that processes sick, dying or badly lame animals. Despite the impression one might get from the programme that is not the case. What happened next door was terrible. Without the excellent work done by RTÉ, to be honest we would not have known that this was happening-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We have had-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

With all due respect we have had five complaints over the recent years about horses on the farm next door. In all cases we have gone out and investigated those complaints, which typically were along the lines of there being thin horses or a lame horse in the field next door. We have never had a complaint about this shed because unfortunately, it is hidden and nobody was aware.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Absolutely.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I agree.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, they are allegations at this point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is an investigation by An Garda Síochána

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is an investigation.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Absolutely. I am not trying in any way to shirk responsibility. We have done a lot of soul searching about it and the questions have been asked by many people. Should we have known what was happening in that shed next door and could we have known, and were there red flags raised? We looked back at any of the complaints we got. We cannot be in 130,000 premises. We rely-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Absolutely and we are there. As I have said, the standard of animals coming into the plant were in good condition. Despite the impression that might have been given in the programme of sick and dying animals coming in, they were not. Should we have known about the horrific stuff we saw in the footage and should we have known that this was happening? I would love to say that we should have. We typically rely on people ringing us up or tipping us off on the help line. Unfortunately we had complaints about the occasional thin horse or the occasional lame horse. We sent an experienced vet out to examine. We did not come across anything that merited serving a welfare notice or bringing a prosecution or anything like that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sheahan has outlined that. I understand that this area was all part of the one complex of one yard, shed, abattoir and farm. It was all the one.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is a farm and a shed adjacent to it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was the abattoir on the same location?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes. The same location.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Before I start I know that Mr. O'Loughlin has had a bereavement and I offer my sympathies to him and his family at this time.

It is no secret that my family are involved in horse racing. I have no stake or claim to it but I have an interest in the sport. I will follow on from what Deputy Murphy has raised. What was seen in the "RTÉ Investigates" programme was the barbaric treatment of animals. The entire racing community is disgusted by what was seen. From people I have spoken to within the racing community, including those within my own constituency of Cork East and nationally across the island with hundreds of families involved in racing outside of the cities, it is clear that the whole industry took a belt from what I perceive to be failures by the Department of agriculture.

Mr. Sheahan has just said that five complaints were made. That is highly irregular for any facility and I assume that even a single complaint would raise alarm bells. The fact there were five is troubling. Given what they have done, the people involved should never be left near an animal again. Anyone involved in racing knows the animals are cared for exceptionally well and at huge cost, and that is because of people's love and passion. Most people involved in racing do not make a penny from it. It is about the love of racing and the animals involved. I am sickened by what I saw on that investigative programme and I want to put that on the record. The Department of agriculture’s inspection methods need serious evaluation. Perhaps on-site CCTV is needed where there is a complaint, even if it is struck down, or where there is a mandatory requirement over a period of time, and that is where a single complaint comes in, never mind five.

Does Mr. Sheahan accept the damage this has done to everybody in racing? It is incredibly unfair to everybody involved with animals, not just for horseracing but farming and everything else, given the public perception that this is the cruelty that is taking place when that is not the case. It happened in this instance and has been highlighted, and well done to RTÉ for that. Does Mr. Sheahan accept the damage that has been done to the industry overall by the failure of the Department to act appropriately when it got a single complaint, never mind five?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

With regard to the five complaints, to clarify, there were no complaints about the slaughter facility itself. We are there when slaughter takes place and I am quite happy to-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Do not give me that nonsense. I am not going to accept that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy should treat the witness with respect.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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One second, Chairman, this is a very valid point. I am talking about the facility that was shown on the recordings from RTÉ. Mr. Sheahan should not go down the line of talking to me about the abattoir.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am just trying to clarify. For the avoidance of any doubt, nobody was more sickened and disgusted by what they saw on that programme than I was. I mentioned there were five complaints and, looking back, one was in 2018, one in 2019, one in 2020, two in 2021 and one in 2023. Those were not complaints that somebody was beating horses horrifically.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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They were welfare complaints concerning the animals.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

They were welfare complaints but they were not complaints that were upheld. They were things along the lines of somebody saying there is a lame horse in a field. We get over 1,000 complaints on our animal welfare helpline. We investigate every single one of them every year and 300 or 400 of them tend to be related to horses because horses are quite visible as they are out in a field. We examine them. We go out and look at every single complaint we get. To be fair, in the case of all of the five complaints we got, we did not find something that merited prosecution or even the serving of a notice. A complaint is one thing. Horses can be very visible if they are standing out in a muddy field and it can look bad to somebody. That does not mean that somebody is breaking the law or that they have done something wrong. Just because somebody makes a complaint about horses in a very visible place does not mean we will find something wrong. If we had found something wrong, of course, we would have acted.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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On the point I made in my first contribution, does Mr. Sheahan not accept that could be looked at? It is a very appropriate step where multiple complaints are made and, in this case, we know there were five.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Since 2018.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That should raise alarm bells. As somebody who lives on a farm where we have dairy and horses, I think five complaints is an extraordinarily high number. Would the Department not consider putting in monitoring or something else on a long-term basis whereby that analysis is done over time? We now know that following the five complaints, the Department was saying there was no problem but the work of “RTÉ Investigates” has debunked that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It has.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What of the damage that has been done?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

As I said, we have done plenty of soul-searching about what we could do differently in future. We cannot-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I also highlight the ecosystem involved here, where there was one single facility adjacent to or apart from the rest - whatever the structuring was is their own business. The Department has now put that out of action through its own work. What is happening in the absence of that? Mr. Sheahan should think about that and the damage that has been done. Animals will potentially be exported off the island for processing.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is a whole other day's work.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very valid point. On behalf of the racing community, I express that as a concern.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is a very valid point. We have seen the experience abroad, in particular in the United States, where there was a campaign for many years to shut down horse slaughter facilities. Eventually, that campaign succeeded and, arguably, it has made the situation worse because horses are being exported to Mexico and Canada, going on long journeys and so on. There are sometimes unintended consequences.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a very small plant. It is killing fewer than 2,000 animals a year. The scale of the horse slaughter industry in Ireland is now very small compared to what it was back in 2013. At one stage, there were four slaughter plants killing horses and, at a peak, we killed 24,000 horses. In line with a significant decrease in the horse population, there has been a significant decline in the number of horses being slaughtered and it is now fewer than 2,000 a year. Of course, that is still significant and just because it is smaller, I am not saying it is insignificant. In an ideal world, it should be possible to slaughter horses in humane conditions.

Again, I know the Deputy will say I am splitting hairs with regard to what was happening within the slaughter plant. I have been there myself and I saw the horses being killed. It was being done in a very competent manner by people who knew what they were doing. I had no idea what had happened the day before 100 yd. or 200 yd. away but within the plant, to be fair to the workers who were doing the job, things were being done very well - as well as is in any other slaughter plant in the country. It is important to make that point.

A plant being shut down has unintended consequences.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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They are massive from a welfare perspective.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

They are potentially massive.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We have the initial exposure, the consequential reaction at Government level and the public reaction to it, but the unforeseen consequences are the latter part of the three phases, in my view. That is more concerning than anything. We might have animals being put onto boats and the Department will know well in the context of calf exports how precarious that is.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not disagreeing with that.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department have an intention to deal with it?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We cannot come up with an alternative slaughter plant. That is not our business. If somebody comes up with a proposal, and if it is decided that the right thing to do is that there should be a slaughter plant facility for horses in this country-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the Department cannot come up with something but it has responsibility and it cannot escape that. A much more interventionist approach initially would have been helpful, as we now know. That is not an acceptable answer. The Department needs to have an answer to this within weeks.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not sure that it is appropriate for the Department of agriculture to encourage somebody else to start slaughtering horses.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not talking about somebody else. The Department should directly intervene in the situation.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We have intervened in the short term with regard to shutting it down for various reasons.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What of the unintended consequence that animals will leave the island?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The unintended consequence is that, in the short term at least, there is no other facility to slaughter horses. I am not certain that the Department is going to be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat and come up with a solution to that in the short term. There are other operators who have in the past killed horses in slaughter facilities here. Perhaps somebody might think that an opportunity exists. On the other hand, this whole thing has become toxic because of what has been seen and I am not sure people will be rushing into it. I go back to the point that it is possible-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect, five complaints were made and the Department made a determination that it was not worthy of concern for the reasons that Mr. Sheahan has outlined. That is why it is now toxic.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I did not say there was no concern. I said that our experienced vets who went out to look at the complaint determined that there was no case for prosecution, the law had not been broken and there was not even a need to serve a welfare notice.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back with a second round of questions.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses. Why did the Department close the plant? The witnesses stated this morning that there was no issue whatsoever with the abattoir and there were no complaints. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

There were no welfare issues with the operation of the abattoir.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why is it closed?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I prefer not to get into the legal reasons for it being closed. It was not closed because of any welfare concerns over what happened in the abattoir.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why is it closed? I am not interested in the legalities. Did the Department close it?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The Department of agriculture has suspended the abattoir’s operations.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I cannot get into the legal reasons for that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Hold on a second. What we all saw was horrific and Mr. Sheahan has stated clearly that that did not happen within the abattoir, but within the lairage, over which the Department does not have a remit. That last is astounding in itself. The relevant department in every other country seemingly has that remit. When someone delivers calves to a lairage in France, there are vets present on a welfare basis. Why is the abattoir closed?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is closed not because of welfare reasons, but because of other reasons.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Such as?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is suspended over traceability issues.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How did they come to light?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

They came to light as a result of the RTÉ programme.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Then the Department’s oversight was lax. The Department did not really have any oversight of the abattoir, did it? Issues arose on foot of the programme. They were not welfare issues but there were many other issues. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Welfare issues at the place next door were highlighted by the programme.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Sheahan said the Department had no remit over that and that it would not have found those issues anyway. The Department’s remit was as an AO or veterinary inspector within the abattoir.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why did the traceability issues under the Department’s remit not come to light? Why did it take “RTÉ Investigates” to uncover them? I am a farmer’s daughter. A farmer can get inspected at the drop of a hat. Farmers are put to the pin of their collars around the country. In most instances, their whole lives are made miserable by the Department, yet Mr. Sheahan is telling me that this situation is not a welfare issue, but a traceability issue. We have one abattoir killing horses in the country and the Department could not oversee it enough.

I will move on. When Mr. O’Loughlin last appeared before us nearly a year ago, Deputy Ó Cathasaigh questioned him and Mr. O’Loughlin stated that he did not have much clue about horse racing. Has he learned anything about it since?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I hope I have.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was it about the sport or the governance?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The governance of horse racing and the governance of us as the regulatory body for horse racing are two areas where I would like to think I have learned a great deal. As we are the regulator for horse racing, our job is to ensure the integrity of racing and we as an organisation need to have that governance-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does that mean the IHRB has taken its eye off the ball as regards governance? The integrity of horse racing is one thing, but the issue that has arisen in terms of the transfer of moneys is another. Ms Angela Flanagan was appointed to the board as the Minister’s appointee. Is that correct?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is correct that Ms Flanagan is a member of our board. She is not an appointee of the Minister.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What position does she hold on the board? If I recall correctly, the advertisement was for a governance director and a financial director. Was she appointed to one of those two positions?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Ms Flanagan was not appointed to our board by the Minister. The Minister does not appoint directors to the IHRB. Ms Flanagan is one of our two independent directors.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The report stated that she was an appointee of the Minister.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I am not familiar with that report.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is fine, but is she in a governance role? Am I correct in saying that the two roles advertised were a governance director and a financial director?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The advertisement was for a director with experience in finance and a director with experience in governance, but the responsibilities do not sit with individual directors in that delineated way. All directors are responsible jointly and severally for the governance of the organisation.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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She does not have a title.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

She is a director, a member of the board.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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A director of the IHRB.

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish to revert to the welfare issue. Is Mr. Osborne the head of welfare?

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does welfare encompass jockey training and such issues?

Mr. John Osborne:

Licensing is the remit of the IHRB.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am talking about jockeys being trained.

Mr. John Osborne:

The Racing Academy and Centre of Education, RACE, has been the jockey training establishment. It is something that we support financially and have done over the years.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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HRI still supports RACE to run-----

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My information was different. I thought that-----

Mr. John Osborne:

It is going through a period of transition.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It would appear so. Either my information is incorrect or Mr. Osborne’s is. RACE has not undertaken any training course funded by the HRI.

Mr. John Osborne:

RACE has approximately 11 strands of education under way at the moment.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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RACE let 21 staff go.

Mr. John Osborne:

As I said, it is going through a transitional-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It looked for capital to assist it, but that was not forthcoming from the HRI.

Mr. John Osborne:

Its major component had a residential element. The residential part of the campus was deemed to require considerable investment for it to continue.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is the HRI setting up an accredited jockey training programme of its own?

Mr. John Osborne:

We see jockey training as an essential part of the industry and we want to ensure that it continues to be so.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is the HRI setting up a training programme?

Mr. John Osborne:

We are working with the existing facilities in RACE to try to re-establish jockey training as similar to what went before-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the HRI have a training course?

Mr. John Osborne:

RACE is operating currently and has 11 strands of education ongoing but that is different to what went before insofar as there is not a residential element to it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it the case that RACE cannot continue without the capital investment?

Mr. John Osborne:

RACE cannot continue to do what it used to do on the campus it has at its disposal. It will require further investment to modernise and get to where it would like to be.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It has let 21 staff go. My information is that it is unable to continue with the training programme and that the HRI will set one up. What will the accreditation be for any such programme and who is accrediting it?

Mr. John Osborne:

All those matters are being considered at the moment. We have worked with all of the agencies in that space, including the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board and the SETU.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We had a facility with 21 staff.

Mr. John Osborne:

The facility was no longer fit for purpose as a residential premises.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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RACE asked for the HRI’s assistance. Is that correct?

Mr. John Osborne:

Our assistance is forthcoming and the transition is under way.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is its value?

Mr. John Osborne:

Those matters are being discussed and deliberated upon.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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RACE wanted €1 million in emergency capital funding. Has the HRI negotiated that?

Mr. John Osborne:

The facility is still providing some element of service to the industry.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That was not my question. Has the HRI negotiated the emergency funding?

Mr. John Osborne:

We are continuing to support RACE to deliver-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. Osborne aware that RACE let 21 staff go while those negotiations, which I am unaware of but Mr. Osborne says are taking place, have been ongoing? Has the HRI negotiated the emergency funding to keep an accredited training course in place when it does not seem to have an alternative as yet?

Mr. John Osborne:

Our ambition is to continue to provide jockey training. That is something we have been doing since 1973 and something that the rest of the racing world comes to Ireland to learn about, yet we find ourselves with a campus that is not fit to deliver in the modern day the type of education we have delivered in the past. RACE itself continues to deliver modules under 11 different headings to the industry and we hope-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has the HRI provided financial assistance?

Mr. John Osborne:

RACE continues to operate with our financial assistance.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much is that?

Mr. John Osborne:

I do not have the exact number, but I can get it for the Deputy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. Osborne aware of the €1 million required in emergency funding?

Mr. John Osborne:

The transition has involved many challenges, some of which are financial.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Would Mr. Osborne be able to submit to the committee what assistance the HRI is providing?

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Osborne. I will move on.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, or the Deputy can contribute again during the second round of questions.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will contribute again later, but I am particularly concerned about the issue of welfare. According to the jockeys I know, there are fewer welfare issues where jockeys have received accredited training.

It is part of all of the welfare issues we are speaking about. Horse Racing Ireland's record states it spent €7 million on welfare last year but I do not see where. I have one question that is pertinent.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is a best-turned-out league. Is this something Mr. Osborne is familiar with?

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is that paid for under the welfare budget?

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What does it have to do with welfare?

Mr. John Osborne:

It rewards the people who are at the absolute front-line of welfare provision. These are the stable staff who work tirelessly to look after the horses on a daily basis and the evidence-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How does it work? How do they win?

Mr. John Osborne:

The evidence of this care is revealed to every racegoer on every race day. All the best-turned-out league does is aggregate the best-turned-out prizes from across the industry. All of the racecourses co-operate with us and report in centrally who won the best-turned-out prizes on any given race day. We create a league of best-turned-out prizes and at the end of the year we award six different categories depending on the size of the yard and how busy it has been.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much does that cost per annum?

Mr. John Osborne:

It costs €18,000. There is €3,000 in prize money in six different-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It sounds more like the best-dressed lady or the best-dressed gentleman at the races. It would not depict anything at all to do with welfare.

Mr. John Osborne:

I could not disagree more. This is exactly the evidence that we want to see of the horses being cared for by people who care. We reward those people. It is not only the prize, it is the recognition. It also encourages the racecourses themselves to participate in this simple way of rewarding the people who are doing the most work in the context of caring for the horses on a daily basis. I cannot see what is not to like about that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I cannot see the relevance in relation to welfare.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To come back to the abattoir and the investigation by RTÉ, we have a parcel of land with a farm complex that has a large shed in it. There is an abattoir as part of the complex. This is my understanding of it. It was shut down on Saturday but the horses were moved on Friday. This is my understanding. Did the Department authorise the movement of those horses on Friday and to where? I ask the witnesses to keep their answers brief and I will keep my questions brief.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I was away on holidays and I came back last night. I am aware of exactly what Cathaoirleach is asking about. I would prefer not to answer the question. We are aware that horses were moved but I would prefer-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Were all of the horses moved? Are there still horses on those lands?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

A number of horses were moved.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A number. Are there still horses on those lands and within the complex?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not certain of that. I do not think there are but I am not certain of it. I am aware that horses were moved.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In the earlier discussion the adjacent shed was discussed. As I understand it, the shed is up beside the abattoir. I ask Mr. Sheahan to confirm that an inspector from the Department was in the slaughtering facility.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

On the day of slaughter, which is usually a Wednesday.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is on the day of slaughtering. Welfare concerns were expressed. Five official complaints were made and there may have been others made by phone that were not recorded.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is possible but-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is possible.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

-----we have a recording system.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In between the fields and where the slaughtering is done there is a shed.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Despite the welfare concerns raised about the lands and the fact that a Department official was present in the abattoir, no one thought to have a look in the adjacent shed to see what was happening there.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Typically there is nothing in the shed. Typically, as I understand it, the shed is empty. As I understand it, what happens is the horse slaughter happens on a Wednesday. Typically, as I understand it, on a Tuesday-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the same as slaughtering cattle in that a vet is present?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is county council vet in the case of beef. I want to be careful in what I say because there is a live Garda investigation. One of the people involved in running the facility has a previous animal welfare conviction.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is correct. It is from 2012 as I understand it. My understanding is that it was not the Department prosecution but a Garda prosecution in 2012.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where were the animals shifted to?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The animals that were moved?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Were they moved to Limerick?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is my understanding.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Were they moved to lands owned by the same individuals who own the facility?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is my understanding.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They were. Who authorised the move? Did the Department authorise it?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am in difficult position in answering that question because of the-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department would have to authorise it, would it not?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

For the-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For the record of it.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

For the movement to happen legally the Department would have to authorise it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sheahan might come back to the committee and confirm this for us.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

What does the Cathaoirleach want me to confirm?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department authorise the movement of the animals? As with the movement of cattle, the Department has to authorise it. It is the same as moving cattle.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I know the answer to the question but I would prefer not to answer it because of the-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Because of the investigation.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

-----the ongoing legal activity, if the Cathaoirleach understands.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I will not press Mr. Sheahan on it because of that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to jeopardise it in any way. Where was the meat from the plant going?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Where was the meat from the plant going?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It was being slaughtered in the abattoir with Department officials there to oversee it. Where was the meat going? Where was it licensed or certified to go?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Typically all of the meat from the plant was exported either directly or indirectly. There is a small cutting plant that quartered the carcasses or, in some cases, boned out the carcasses prior to export. Typically, as I understand it, all the meat was exported to France, Belgium or Italy. No cutting as such actually took place on the premises in Straffan.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have the Department staff involved in monitoring the site been interviewed by the Department? Have there been conversations in the Department about it? I do not want the detail of them.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Sorry, about what?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is with regard to the staff involved in monitoring this one single plant in the State. Have there been examinations of what was happening in terms of speaking with those people and with regard to any records kept?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Absolutely. There is a very active investigation of all aspects of this taking place. We have a separate investigations division in the Department and that division is leading it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know it is very rigorous for ordinary farm animals. I know this from farmers in my constituency. I wonder what happened here. The concern here is the horse racing industry is a very valuable industry with a big reputation to be kept and this was going on in the heart of horse racing country in County Kildare. This is of concern. Substantial public funding goes into horse racing every year, with more than €80 million directly and other funds indirectly. This is the concern we have here.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We all share these concerns.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the horse passport system, I am as confused as I was before the meeting started with regard to the issuing of passports and microchipping and who is responsible. There seem to be several layers. It is very hard to nail down where the buck stops.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Ultimately it stops with the Department of agriculture. We have overall responsibility for issues to do with the identification of horses.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Let me say this to Mr. Sheahan: on 11 July we will have the Accounting Officer in. I do not want to pin Mr. Sheahan down too much this morning because he is a principal officer. He is not the Accounting Officer but he is here in the role of representing the Department. Would it look to Mr. Sheahan, in the first instance from an animal welfare point of view, in light of what has come out in recent weeks, that traceability, microchipping, passports and the whole regulation of the industry may need to be looked at again and simplified so that somebody is in charge?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It definitely needs to be looked at again. It is something we constantly monitor. It improved significantly over the years, particularly over the past ten years. It would be fair to say that 15 years ago the entire issue of the identification of horses was not great. The quality of the passports was poor. People could literally produce one on a photocopier or a printer if they wanted to. Since then things have tightened up considerably.

Security features on passports include holograms and so on. One cannot easily fraudulently produce a fake passport. It is not that simple.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who holds the database?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The Department has since 2014, when we brought in a central database. We have a central record of all horses.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Every horse in the State.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Every horse. Everything the seven passport-issuing bodies record is transferred to our central database. Things have tightened up considerably. To be honest, until this programme, if you had asked me three weeks ago how good our horse identification system was now, I would have said it was not perfect but good.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Since the investigation, what would you say?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

One aspect was a bit of a surprise.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What was that?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That was the footage apparently showing a microchip being inserted into the horse - that is what it looked like anyway. I am not certain, but apparently, that horse subsequently got through the system.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Spray paint was used, apparently, to cover it up.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Apparently, yes. We were contacted by the Dutch authorities two years ago who said they thought there was a problem. They said some horses were being exported from Ireland. They could not beat our system in Ireland and get into the food chain. They were being exported to Holland and finding a way of beating the system in Holland and Romania and places like that. As I said, the number of horses being slaughtered in Ireland is tiny compared with what it was. There was a time when we killed 24,000 horses. That has gradually reduced and now we kill fewer than 2,000 horses. A very small number of horses are getting through the system and getting into the food chain.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Two thousand have been-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Fewer than 2,000 a year, which is a very small number in comparison with the past. I am still not sure how that-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Sheahan have confidence in the passport system at this stage?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I have less confidence than I had. We are still not sure how-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know there is stuff to be done and we are in the early days of this.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is not simple. It is not as simple as sticking a microchip in a horse and you get through the system. It does not work like that. The microchip has to be registered on our central database, the microchip has to be a correct microchip and it then has to match the passport. Simply sticking a microchip in a horse will not allow you to beat the system. We are not sure yet how this individual horse apparently beat the system. We have some theories but we are not sure.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To go back to the abattoir, does the company running that have an animal welfare person?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Every slaughter plant legally has to have an animal welfare officer who has to do certain training courses and so on.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the person who had a conviction ten or 12 years ago?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No, it is not the person who had the conviction.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it a family member?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not sure if I should answer that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not push Mr. Sheahan on it. We will take a short break for ten minutes. I will suspend the meeting and we will then resume in public session.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow members to come back in. We will try eight minutes first and see how it goes because other members may arrive later. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy first.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Does the Deputy mean other welfare checks on the farm next door?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Not that I am aware of. We did one other inspection which was medicines-related, as I understand, checking for medicines records or something like that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I do not think we found anything untoward.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

There are roughly 130,000 farms in the country. We do a certain amount of checks.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

There are 29,000 farms with horses. Unless there are red flags, it is hard for us to see everything that is happening.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Concerning all the animals slaughtered in our slaughter plants every year - horses, cattle, sheep, etc. - we pay careful attention to what comes in the door. It is the case that in some of our slaughter plants, if we see sheep coming in that are not in as good a condition as they should be, we take note of that and follow up on that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

It is similar if cattle come in from a particular farm to a slaughter plant which are not in as good condition as they should be. In the case of the horse plant, going back over many years of the operation of that slaughter plant, a number of experienced vets have been in that plant. We have never-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

On the animals that came into the slaughter plant, going back over many years, many experienced vets have checked every animal. Every animal that comes in is checked by the vet in charge of the plant.

I have talked to our vet who is there at present. He is a vastly experienced equine vet with great experience at home and abroad and he has assured me that in all his time there, all the animals which have come into that plant have been in good condition. Obviously, I cannot explain what happens next door or why they were doing-----

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I will hand a question over to Dr. Hillyer as our chief veterinary officer.

Dr. Lynn Hillyer:

In terms of the regulation of the integrity of the sport, we regularly and routinely check factsheets. Every time a horse runs in a race and every time we inspect a horse on a licensed premises, we identify it by its microchip and, particularly if it runs for the first time, by its marking. We crosscheck the markings with the microchip.

Dr. Lynn Hillyer:

Yes.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The Jockeys Emergency Fund, JEF, is a registered charity. We provide the administrative services but we do not do the management and control, as such, of the charity. It is not a subsidiary although it is dealt with as a related party in our accounts. I have no official role in the JEF so it is not for me to speak on its behalf. The purpose of the JEF is to provide care, and medical care in particular as well as social care to jockeys who have had catastrophic injuries. We are talking about total paralysis. There are at the moment two beneficiaries and I understand that the JEF had an actuarial report done, which established that it had enough provision in its current resources to provide for the two current beneficiaries for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is audited by a firm of accountants called Hayden Brown.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The Comptroller and Auditor General has no role in the auditing of the charity because the charity is an independent entity with its own board and trustees.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

There is another charity called the Drogheda Memorial Fund, which is a far smaller charity that exists to provide relief from financial hardship for people who have an association with racing. It operates at a much smaller level and then there are two non-charitable accident funds, one for qualified riders, which is essentially non-professional jockeys, and the other for professional jockeys.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The IHRB inherited the provision of administrative services for these entities. It is a long custom and practice. They were originally set up over the decades by the Turf Club and when the Turf Club stepped back from regulating horse racing and the IHRB was established, there was a transfer of undertakings and a business transfer agreement so that all of the relevant assets and personnel came into the IHRB at that time. We inherited this role.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The funding model is the funding model and that was established in the legislation. That is way above my pay grade and is for others to consider. On how we implement the arrangements which are currently in place, I would say we have a very respectful relationship of equals with HRI. It understands that we are solely and independently responsible for making and enforcing the rules of racing. HRI has never sought to interfere in any way in any of our regulatory anti-doping or veterinary welfare practices. It has been supportive at all times. We would always argue about money and we would always want more money and there is a limit to what it can provide.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

As I said earlier, when it comes to identification, whether it is in cattle or horses, one is always trying to improve the system. Even in cattle where we think we have a world-leading system, we are still making improvements where we only recently brought in electronic identification of cattle in 2022. With horses it has been the same, where we have been on a journey of trying to keep improving the thing with the central database, the security of passports-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

A couple of things arise specifically after last week. Two main things arose from the programme with regard to identification. The biggest issue which came out is that if there is a weakness, it would appear that our central database works very well but in every other country which has a central database, which it is required to have one as per EU law, it would appear that there is a loophole in that in some countries, even though the horse is marked and their database entry has been deemed to be not eligible for the food chain, it appears that those databases do not talk to one another, so-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We have contacted the European Commission, as this is going to take an EU approach. The Commission is arranging a meeting for next Wednesday as far as I know - we do not have the final details on it yet - to bring the member states together to see what needs to be done to close that loophole, if it is a loophole. There seems to be a loophole in the fact that each country's central database does not talk to the others and this seems to have exposed some bit of a weakness. That is one element.

The second element is that with regard to the individual horse that we saw being implanted with the microchip, we are still not sure how that horse apparently beat the system. It is not just as simple as putting a microchip in as one also has to have a matching passport and to have the horse registered on the database. We have a theory as to how that might have happened but we are not sure yet.

Dr. Lynn Hillyer:

I will take that question and perhaps Mr. Osborne can then join in. We have a relentless focus on the safety and welfare of our participants, both equine and human. I am a vet and Mr. Osborne is a vet and it is very dear to both of us personally and professionally. Every day there is horse racing, we have independent regulatory veterinarians on track and we follow up the horses off track.

This year, in particular, we have implemented a suitability to race programme. Although we started this in earnest last year, we are really gathering momentum this year. We are working with trainers and vets at home to really understand the condition and status of our horses before they get to the track. It is extremely important to ensure they arrive at the track in the best condition possible and suitable to race. Every single fatality on track is investigated fully by our experienced senior team. This would include video review, talking to jockeys, talking to the vets on track and talking to the Blue Cross. All these people have experience and understanding of how these injuries happen. That is very much the operational side.

In parallel with that, in 2022, we formally put together what is called the Equine Injury in Irish Racing Risk Reduction Project. It was actually a continuation of previous work but we formalised it in 2022. This programme is led by two world-leading epidemiologists and experts in this field, Professor Tim Parkin and Dr. Sarah Rosanowski, working with individuals in and beyond our industry. In a nutshell, this project is all about recognising that, as in many sports, horse racing carries a risk. We must and do recognise this fact. What we must do, however, every day and not just in flurries, fits or bursts, is to do what we can to reduce that risk. This project is about identifying risk factors and then doing something about them.

To give the committee a real example, this project yielded several risk factors towards the end of 2022 and into the last year, which we integrated into our practices on the racetrack as soon as we possibly could. We now target the inspections I was talking about, concerning the suitability to race, at the horses we know from the science may be at increased risk of injury. This was a bit of a gallop through the area but there is a lot more I could talk about.

Ms Suzanne Eade:

Of course.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To come in on that last point, Mr. Osborne might have thought I was trying to get at him, but it is very important that as a country with a history of jockeys developing at a young age, and who leave the academic system in the same way as soccer players, we would encompass their welfare as much as the animals they are riding. By this, I mean they should have a qualified traineeship behind them before they leave the academic system. It is as simple as that. They should be given this option as an alternative. We need to support RACE. I ask Mr. O'Loughlin to ensure that this happens in future. From what we have just heard, and I know that Ms Eade was previously on the board of RACE, it seems we have nothing else in place. We were given a very flowery document, which is lovely but does not tell us anything. There is nothing in it with regard to what a replacement would be or what the criteria would be for accreditation. I ask the witnesses to take this aspect very seriously before they come in here next year and there are any further complaints in this regard.

Ms Suzanne Eade:

I want to respond on the piece on RACE.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not yet. I will come back to it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a question. It is just adding to what Dr. Hillyer has said in relation to the welfare of our young jockeys. I know of two young jockeys injured in the UK who were entitled to nothing when they came home here to their parents with broken backs. They are entitled to virtually nothing, including social welfare because of their age. It is important, therefore, that we minimise any risk and this can only be done through training. Would Mr. Osborne agree with this?

Mr. John Osborne:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is all I want to say on the issue. I am conscious of the time. Turning to Mr. O'Loughlin, he said that the JEF is a charity.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

That is correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thought it ceased to exist as a charity in 2021 and became a limited company.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is an easy mistake to make, and one I have made myself. The JEF is the jockey emergency fund, while the JAF is the jockeys accident fund. These are entirely separate. The accident fund is now a CLG. Since the Deputy mentioned the two jockeys who came back from the UK, if they had been riding in Ireland, the JEF exists to prevent them from being left high and dry in the event of injury. It pays out a sort of income continuance to jockeys.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why would it have changed from being a charity to being a limited company?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Its objectives are not those of a charity. It is closer, in reality, to income continuance insurance.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. I thank Mr. O'Loughlin for providing that clarity. When it comes to the transaction involving the €350,000, has the Charities Regulator been informed as just another part of governance to oversee anything else?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes, it absolutely has. When the board of directors of the IHRB became aware of it, this time last year, the trustees of the JEF were immediately made aware and they were in contact and remain in contact with the Charities Regulator.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has the Charities Regulator completed an investigation?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is not for me to speak for the regulator or for the trustees. As I said earlier, I do not have a role in that charity. What I do know, however, is that the trustees are engaged with the Charities Regulator on this matter.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. O'Loughlin has no remit over the JEF.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I have no official role in the JEF.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did he become aware of the transaction involving the movement of moneys from the JEF to the-----

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

As I told the Deputy last year, I became aware of it two days before I sat in this very room in front of this committee.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was June 2023.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes, it was 27 June 2023.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In this context, then, who instigated the Mazars report?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It was the board of directors of the IHRB in collaboration with HRI.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who set the terms of reference for Mazars?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It was the board of directors of the IHRB in collaboration with HRI.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The board did not go to an external body to set the terms of reference. In effect, the IHRB set the terms of reference to investigate itself.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is the members of the board of directors of any organisation who are ultimately responsible for its governance, so it is absolutely appropriate that they would set the terms of reference for the review, with the assistance of-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Even when there has been, as Mr. O'Loughlin put it, a correction of an error of €350,000 going from one account to the other and back.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Given the board of directors was not aware of that transfer and its reversal until one year after the fact, it was appropriate that it would establish a review to find out what had happened and to do so with the collaboration of HRI. This means it was not just done internally. We were not marking our own homework, as it were. The HRI has responsibility for overseeing our governance and it was fully involved in setting the terms of reference.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was a draft report received?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

We received a draft text a few weeks ago. It was just in advance of our last board meeting.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did Mazars begin its review?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It was in August last year. We signed the terms of reference in August 2023 and Mazars commenced work immediately.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mazars give any timeframe for completion?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The company and I had thought that this report would be completed long before now. I tracked-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I should rephrase my question. Was Mazars asked for a speedy report?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

We asked for a speedy report. When the request for documentation came into us, we furnished Mazars with everything it asked for. It has received six years' worth of documentation and financial reference material.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who is assisting with this undertaking? Who is providing this information?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The request from Mazars would ordinarily come into me and then-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Loughlin, though, was not there six years ago.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The request for specific information in the form of documents and records would come to me and then I would establish where the documents and records are in the organisation. I made sure those materials went back to Mazars. It received in excess of 1,000 documents and records and it has gone through all of them.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The review being undertaken by Mazars has gone back six years. How long has the CFO been on voluntary leave?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The CFO has been on leave since the day before this committee met last year. He has been on leave since 28 June 2023.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does "voluntary leave" mean?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It means he is not suspended.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He took the leave himself.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

He went on voluntary leave at that time. He remains on leave.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This question was asked earlier but I missed it with my hearing. Is he being paid?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is on voluntary leave, is not suspended, is being paid and has been on leave for almost a year.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

He is just shy of a year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why has he not been suspended or replaced at this stage? Is it just the case that he can stay on voluntary leave forever? How much has he been paid in the 12 months since he took voluntary leave?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

As an employer with a duty of care to employees, I am-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Now, listen. That is not going to wash. How much has he been paid? The figure is going to appear in next year's accounts, so will Mr. O'Loughlin please just give me the figure and not embarrass himself?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I am not embarrassing myself at all, but I am complying with legal advice-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. O'Loughlin is under privilege here.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

-----and with the statutory rights of individuals to privacy in relation to their personal information.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is public money.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, sorry, the CFO-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is public money.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that and this is what I am coming to. The CFO would be on a salary.

I presume whatever that salary is will show up in the annual accounts. There will be a figure for that. I asked a question about it earlier and the Deputy has asked a question. It is a peculiar arrangement to say the least. It is accepted. That will be in it. What is the salary of a CFO?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If you were advertising the job, what would the salary be?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it €100,000 or €200,000? What is it?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It is certainly not €200,000.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the board was advertising the job, what would the salary be, Mr. O'Loughlin?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be €160,00 or €170,000?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It would not be standard for salaries other than the chief officer's salary to be revealed in the financial statements. It would be a charge on the accounts but it would appear with other salaries.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The CEO would be able to tell us. What would be the salary for a CFO in your organisation?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it were advertised.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it was advertised, what would it be?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I am not going to answer a question if, by answering the question, I am divulging personal information in relation to an employee. The Payment of Wages Act and GDPR, as we all know, give people an entitlement to privacy, including in relation to their salaries. My salary is a matter of public record, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, because it is a condition of my employment that it be a matter of public record.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Loughlin, the question is, if you were advertising for a CFO in the morning, which you may well be soon, what would the salary be?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

It would say salary in line with responsibilities and experience of the successful candidate. I would not put a figure in the ad, Deputy.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. O’Loughlin send a note to the committee on the pay structures in the organisation in terms of the number of people on more than €200,000, the number on more than €150,000, and the number on more than €120,000?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

I draw attention to a note in our accounts. The information is already published in the accounts. There is a table which outlines the number of employees in each band of €10,000.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many are in the highest band?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

One.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And the next band down? That is €150,000 to €200,000, is it?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

They are bands of €10,000.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The bands are in €10,000 in the financial statements.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have one thing I want clarity on in relation to Mr. O’Loughlin’s predecessor, Mr. Egan. Did the transfer of €350,000 have anything to do with the €385,000 that Mr. Egan received?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

The transfer of €350,000 was not directed then to him. All the facts around this that we all want in the public domain, nobody more than myself, will be contained in the Mazars report that is not yet finalised. I would far prefer-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mazars looking at the fact that Mr. Egan received 58% more for his golden handshake than was the standard?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

There was a voluntary redundancy and early retirement scheme that was implemented-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was 58% higher than the standard.

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

-----in 2021, and that scheme and its implementation overall forms part of the Mazars report.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it part of the Mazars report?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it part of the Mazars report?

Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin:

Yes. That scheme and the implementation of that scheme in its entirety forms part of the review of financial governance being undertaken by Mazars.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just one very last thing that is pertinent to Mr. Sheahan with regard to clarity. Did Mr. Sheahan say he was unable or he did not have the remit to actually inspect the farm that was lairing the horses for the abattoir?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No. I did not say that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You did not say that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So it was within-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We legally would have the power to go into any of the 130,000 farms in the country-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You just did not.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We cannot go onto 130,000 farms at any one time. We do go on the basis of information received or if certain factors-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But you did not inspect this, ever, did you?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We were on it six times in recent times.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the land but not the sheds.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Not the shed. The shed is empty other than on the day before slaughter. As I understand it, horses arrive onto the farm next door. They are sorted through this shed where we saw the horrific stuff happening and then, the following morning, they move into the lairage of the slaughter plant where our vet on site-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask this because this is the curious thing. Were the animals that were being mistreated, which were lame and unable to stand up, on their way through the shed into the abattoir? That is what seems to being indicated.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

The very sick and the horse that died or whatever clearly did not go.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If they were able to limp in, did they make their way in?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We have never had horses presented in recent years - I cannot talk for ten years ago - which were sick, emaciated-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Lame?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is a good question on the lameness. I specifically asked our vet about that in great detail. He said we have never had seriously lame horses presented. He said occasionally he has had a horse presented that, as a racing vet, he would not allow to race in that it would not be 100% sound but not-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They would have been in good condition in every other way.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

In good condition in every other way and slightly lame but not in such a way that it was not fit for transport or whatever. I am pretty categoric on that. Whatever horrific stuff-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were the six inspections under the animal welfare Act?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Broadly speaking. I think one was a medicines one but the others would have been under the animal welfare Act.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But you never felt the need to inspect the buildings?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Typically, there is nothing in the buildings. The buildings are empty normally, except, as I understand, on the day or the evening before the horses are slaughtered.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would that not be the time to carry out the inspection? Would that not be the most appropriate time? Why would you do an animal welfare inspection if there was nothing there?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is a very good question. Again, I personally have done a good bit of soul searching on this on whether there were things we should have done differently. With all exposés, people jump on the bandwagon and say you should have known or whatever-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would not like you to accuse me of jumping on a bandwagon. I think it is pretty relevant, Mr. Sheahan, that animal welfare inspections are conducted where animals are and not where places are empty and they are not there.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not accusing the Deputy of jumping on the bandwagon.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think it is a case of anyone jumping on the bandwagon. The Department has the power to go in anywhere - any field, premises, shed or farm facility. We know that is in the agricultural sector, and Mr. Sheahan has clarified that carries across in the very same way to the horse sector. The animals in the fields are inspected. Mr. Sheahan has clarified a number of times, helpfully, that there is a vet on site on the day they are slaughtered they are examined. Committee members are curious that, for whatever period of time the horses were in this shed, whether it is for minutes, hours or a day, nobody looked in there. It is a very legitimate question. I do not think, in fairness, that is jumping on a bandwagon.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is where the brutality was-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think Mr. Sheahan should withdraw that remark.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and what people saw was taking place.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will clarify-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I think you should withdraw.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will withdraw it but I will clarify what I was trying to say. I accept that is a very legitimate question on whether we should have been inspecting this-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Pre-slaughter.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Pre-slaughter. In any other circumstances when it comes to sheep or cattle slaughter and so on, we do not make a point of going out and examining the feedlots they are coming from before they go for slaughter or whatever. The only time we would do that is if animals arrive in poor condition, which signals there may be a problem at the place of origin. In that case we notify our local office and it makes a point of going out and checking and sometimes they will find there is a problem.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There were red flags with previous complaints and there was a conviction. I call Deputy O'Connor.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes. Can I just address the point of the bandwagon?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, now. I do not want to get into that.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I certainly was not accusing the Deputy of jumping on a bandwagon. I was making a general point that whenever an exposé comes out, whether it is Áras Attaracta, a charity, the Bóthar scandal or whatever, there is a tendency to say of course you should have known. I would make the point that maybe we should have known, but looking back at every indicator that we might have looked at, nothing was raising significant red flags to us, particularly the fact that the animals coming into the slaughter plant were in good condition. If a slaughter plant-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. Deputy O'Connor.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Sheahan saying they were just not in good condition the day "Prime Time" was there?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No. I would imagine the vast majority of horses in that shed were probably in very good condition. I do not know how many days, weeks or months of footage RTÉ has and how it got those cameras, or whatever. I would say-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would stop digging the hole if I were you, Mr. Sheahan, to be quite honest.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy O'Connor has the floor.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask my first question quickly as it is something that is bothering me. Mr. Sheahan said something in the last round that one person involved had a Garda complaint made against him for animal cruelty. Is that right?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Yes. One person involved has a conviction, as I understand it, going back to 2012. As far as I understand it, it was not a Department of agriculture conviction, it was a Garda conviction.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In relation to animal cruelty.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

That is my understanding.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Mr. Sheahan aware of that prior to when the inspections took place? I mean the five previous complaints and following inspections. Was he aware of that Garda conviction?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I have to admit, I personally-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was the Department aware?

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not 100% sure. I honestly do not know. I certainly was not aware. I do not know this individual.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it was aware it is an embarrassment to the Government and the Department that that individual was involved in the care and handling-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is an investigation now. A Garda investigation.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Hang on a second. I have not even made the point here.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but just be conscious of language.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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He is convicted. It is an embarrassment to the Department of agriculture that that individual was left near an animal. It is actually disgusting. I grew up around animals, horses and cows, and have been around them all my life. That somebody could be convicted and still be allowed work in a setting involving animals is sick. If we put this is a human context, would we have somebody like this in a setting involving hospital care or other things involving healthcare with humans? It is barbaric and an indictment of the Department that was allowed to happen, if that is the case. I wanted to make that point.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Can I respond to that?

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I have no time. I am sorry.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

In fairness now-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I just wanted to make that point. I am not asking a question, I am making a statement.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In doing so, do not identify anyone-----

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will not identify anyone. In fairness-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----because there is a Garda investigation.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

-----when we in the Department bring prosecutions or in this case, as I understand it, when the Garda brings prosecutions, the judge or the court decides what the penalty is. I am not 100% sure, but my understanding is a fine was imposed in this case. We have brought several hundred prosecutions-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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You are digging a JCB-sized hole for yourself here.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

No, I am not.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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You are.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I am not.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Right.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Can I just say, the court in some cases-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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You are a Department of agriculture official coming in here and trying to say the courts decide. The point I am making is about somebody with a conviction for animal cruelty being involved in the handling of animals.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

We do not impose the penalty. The court has the ability to ban somebody from having anything to do and sometimes it does that. In this case it did not do that, so I mean people-----