Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I remind members to turn off their mobile phones.

I wish to bring to everyone's attention to the fact that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by them outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from these proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in a member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of today's meeting is our resumed discussion on the collection and recycling of farm plastics. The committee will hear from Deputy Ossian Smyth, Minister of State at the Departments of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Environment, Climate and Communications, and Ms Bernie Kiely, principal officer at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. They are welcome to the meeting. The Minister of State's opening statement has been circulated to members. He has five minutes to present it, after which we will proceed to our questions and answers session.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank the committee for inviting me to address it. This is my first time before the agriculture committee. I am the Minister of State with responsibility for the circular economy, so agriculture is not my specific area of expertise, but I will do my best to answer all of the questions from members. If I cannot, I will revert to them with answers.

One of my Department’s functions in respect of waste management is to set the policy and legislative framework for the extended producer responsibility, EPR, model in Ireland across the various waste streams. Ireland uses the EPR model for dealing with a number of waste streams, including farm plastics, packaging, end-of-life vehicles, electrical equipment, tyres and batteries. These schemes have been developed based on the producer pays principle. To date, they have operated successfully and have enabled Ireland to reach our domestic and EU recycling targets. My Department is not responsible for and has no role in the operational and day-to-day matters of any of these schemes.

Ireland is one of the few countries in Europe to have introduced legislation specifically designed to promote farm plastics recycling. This legislation is critical, as it places a legal responsibility on producers of farm film products to specifically support recycling. The options open to producers placing farm film products on the Irish market are to either become directly involved in the recycling of farm plastics waste with their customers by operating a deposit and return scheme or to participate in the Government-approved farm plastics recycling scheme.

The primary role of the Department in respect of farm plastics matters is to provide the legislative framework. Under the legislation, the Irish Farm Film Producers Group, IFFPG, operates further to an approval granted by the Department as the national farm plastics recycling scheme and has been doing so 1998.

The company is a not-for-profit body, which is owned by its members and the Irish Farmers Association.

Under the approved scheme, producers pay an environmental protection levy to IFFPG based on the quantity of product they place on the market. The environmental levy applies to all products based on the Irish market. The levy, along with a collection fee set by IFFPG, is used to fund and provide for the collection, transportation and treatment of farm film plastic. My Department is not responsible for and has no role in the operational and day-to-day matters of IFFPG, which include details regarding the levy and collection scheme.

The role of the Department is in oversight of discharge by IFFPG of the terms of its approval. IFFPG has performed very well in the context of its record of collection and recycling of farm plastics, at approximately 90%. Its target, which was set under the approval, is 70%. However, there are challenges facing the sector. The costs for recycling are currently high. This is due to the closure of the Chinese market to plastics, the war in Ukraine, which drove an increase in costs by 18%, and by lower-than-expected sales compared with collections arising from weather and cost issues being faced by the agricultural sector. The Department is supportive of the IFFPG goal of ensuring a full service to farmers this year and is supportive of the scheme’s contribution to environmental management of farm plastics.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. This committee has discussed the collection of farm plastic on a number of occasions. There will be a lot of unease about how it is operating and there will be unease about the way IFFPG is performing as well. The first question I will ask is about the Minister of State's comment that the producer pays. It is the user of the plastic, in this case, the farmer, who is paying for the plastic at the point of purchase and the point of disposal. Farmers are not the producers, but they are paying at both ends.

The other issue is that there are huge stockpiles. The committee has seen evidence which proves that. There is a significant stockpile of uncollected plastic in farmyards. We know there are yards with a significant tonnage of plastic piled high that has not been collected, even though the farmer has paid a levy on it at the point of purchase and the point of collection. The plastic can be seen lying in very large heaps, and it is not being collected. We feel this is a serious environmental issue that has the potential to do significant damage to us. Why is this happening on the IFFPG's watch? As I said, it is collecting a levy on all the plastic that is purchased and there is also a levy paid on the plastic that is collected as well. In such circumstances, how can we have a situation where there are large quantities of plastic being stockpiled? We are talking about five or six locations around the country where there are large collections of plastic. We would have estimated as a committee that we could be talking about anywhere between 40,000 to 50,000 tonnes of plastic lying in yards and not being recycled, even though all the necessary contributions are being paid by the user.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I am aware of this problem. If people are collecting or storing plastic in yards, that is beyond what they are legally allowed to do. The position is the same where it is damaging the environment. The local authorities that are responsible for the enforcement of these rules were in contact with my Department today to confirm that all the relevant yards are now in compliance.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is saying there are no stockpiles of plastic in any yards now.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I am saying that all the relevant local authorities contacted my Department earlier to tell officials that all the relevant yards are in compliance as of today. Obviously, I have not visited those yards today. I have not seen what they are like. I stand open to correction, but that is the information I have from my Department and from the local authorities concerned.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I respect what the Minister of State is saying, but we would be very surprised if that were the case. What does compliance mean? We have seen photographic evidence of huge piles of plastic. Never mind how it looks; it poses a huge environmental risk. The money has been paid by the farmers to have this plastic recycled but it is not being recycled.

The other point I made to the Minister of State was about the producer-pays principle. How come the farmers are carrying all the costs of it? They are not the producers of the plastic.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The first issue is in what way they are in compliance. They are in compliance with the permits that were issued to them as waste collectors. In other words, they are in compliance with environmental law and the terms and conditions that were imposed by the local authorities. There may be unsightly piles of plastic. However, the question is about whether they are in compliance within the context of what they are legally permitted to do.

The second question was about the costs. This is a scheme in which the producers have to pay. It involves the producer-pays principle. It is similar to other schemes, such as Repak or the deposit return scheme, where the people who are producing the materials have to put money into the system to pay towards the cost of collecting those materials, which may end up as pollution in the environment.

In the case of this scheme, as I understand it, every time the producers manufacture a silage bag or some farm plastic, they have to put money into a bank account. They then sell the product on to the farmers. However, the cost of the product is, of course, elevated because they are passing on the costs they had to pay in order to produce the goods. The farmers then bring back the plastic, typically to a designated yard or to a mart and at that time, they have to pay a fee for the collection of the product. Therefore, we have the producers paying when they put it in, but the costs are being passed on to the farmers who are the users. That is the spread and that is how the scheme is funded.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Lombard.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the Minister of State's presence. It is very important that he should be here. It is great that we have a Minister to go through the issue.

He just explained to us how it actually operates, and we are very much aware of that. Basically, the producer and the farmer are probably the same person. The farmer buys the plastic, and the farmer also has to take it to the recycling depot. Therefore, the farmer is paying both ways for it. We need to get clarity that the farmer is the end user who is paying for it both times.

Can I get an indication regarding the Department's involvement in how much plastic is out there? The Department licensed this entity and put it in charge of the actual recycling side of it. We have the collection side of it about which the Minister of State spoke. I will ask about the recycling side of it. The Minister of State used the word "recycling". My question is clear. How many tonnes of plastic is in the ownership of this organisation, which is licensed by the Department to recycle it? How many tonnes have not been recycled?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Is the Senator asking how much is not recycled out of the total that has been put out there?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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As I understand it, it is 10% of the total. We are recovering 90% of the material.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but the Minister of State missed my point. I must be getting poor at this. The issue is about how much plastic is in storage that has been picked up from yards. According to the letter the Minister if State received earlier, those yards are now compliant. How many thousands of tonnes are sitting there at the moment that have not been recycled? We need a figure for the actual amount of plastic involved.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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We do not have a tally of how much plastic is being stored in each particular yard at any one time. Obviously, that changes from day to day. It is the responsibility of the local authorities to ensure that any waste collector is storing material within the terms and conditions of its permit and that it is not storing more than it should in its yard.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I do think that-----

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Department or Government is not keeping track of exactly how much plastic is in each yard every day of the year. What we are looking at is how much plastic has been produced and how much has been recycled.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is how much has been recycled or collected.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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It is how much has been collected and then how much has been recycled.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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That is my question. How much has been recycled?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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A total of 90%.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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No, that is the percentage that has been collected. These are slightly different issues; there is a difference between what is stored under the ownership of this company and what is recycled. I say that with respect to the Minister of State. If it is sitting in one of these five yards and it is not baled but it is compliant with the terms and conditions of the local authority, it is still not recycled; it is only collected. How much of it is recycled?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Ultimately, it all has to be recycled. Where else would the material go?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We fully agree on that. The question is regarding how much of it is sitting there. The Minister of State has gone through the issues that have arisen with the Chinese authorities and the war. These are really serious issues. We are genuinely concerned that there could be stockpiles out there that have not been recycled. We know the collection rates are approximately 90%. They should be higher and we all know that. We have no indication of the amount that is actually being recycled, however. I ask for the Department to revert with the figure for how much has not been recycled. If the Department could provide that figure, it would give great ease to this committee. Our fear is that there may be stockpiles of plastic towards which the farmer will have paid twice, because they pay to have it collected and bought, yet it may not have gone through the recycling system itself.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I think the Senator is asking whether there is a difference between the amount of material plastic film that is collected and what is actually recycled at the end of the year. In other words, he is asking if any more material is being collected than is actually being recycled and, if that is happening, whether there is a discrepancy. He is asking if we can provide figures for both. I will go back to the Department and find out more detail on that.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is a matter of that figure. Today, there are five yards are in compliance with local authorities. There could be six next year, seven the year after or 20 the year after that. There is a fear among the committee members that the recycling targets are not actually being met with regard to this product. We realise there is pressure here. We realise there is significant pressure in trying to find a home for this product. However, we need to find out what is happening and where. That is a genuine question within the farming community. The farming community is doing all the right things but it is being said to this committee that there are stockpiles in some locations and they are not going through the required recycling process. That is a frightening prospect.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Okay. I thank the Senator.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask about the licensing. The Minister of State informed us that the day-to-day running of the organisation is not his job; it is the licensing. Can he give me the date on which the last licence was issued and the timeline for that licence? When will the next licence be issued? How does that process run?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The body is an approved body. It is appointed in the same way as many other producer bodies with which we are familiar, such as Repak, etc. The producers get together to make a proposal for a scheme, the Minister reviews it and agrees terms and conditions with the producers for their organisation and corporate structure. The Minister agrees a method of reviewing their performance. In fact, we are currently carrying out a mid-term review of the approval. That is analogous to how the body is performing. A meeting like this can inform the types of questions we will ask the body and can result in amendment to the terms of its approval.

The Senator specifically asked about the date on which they were formed. They were formed in 2021. The duration of their approval is for a five-year period, which is from 2021 to 2026. It is now 2024, and a mid-term review of their approval is under way.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I have only one more question because I know I have been hogging the meeting. Regarding the board that has been set up, the Minister of State went into detail about who is involved in the board. Do any Department officials sit on the board?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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There is an independent chair but there are no Department officials on the board. That is also the case for other producer schemes I am familiar with.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Kerrane.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I, too, thank the Minister of State for attending the meeting this evening. We have had a number of witnesses before the committee on this issue. Stockpiling is one of the issues raised, as is the fact that farmers are paying on the double when it comes to waste and waste collection. All of that has been raised.

I have two questions. When were the terms of approval that are granted by the Department with the IFFPG put in place? I apologise if the Minister of State just said that but I was not sure about the year to which he was referring.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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That was in 2021.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Were there any changes in the terms of approval at that point in 2021 from what was there previously?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I do not have that information. I will have to confirm that. It was before my time.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. It would be good to know if there were any changes to the terms of approval in 2021. I refer to the role of the Department, which is limited. The Minister of State said it has oversight of discharge by IFFPG of the terms of its approval. Aside from putting in place the terms of approval that run for a five-year period, does the Minister of State or his Department engage with the IFFPG at any point in those five years?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The engagement is defined in the approval. There are regular meetings between the IFFPG and the Department. There are annual reports and the structure of the annual report is defined in the approval.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Given that the meetings between the Department and the IFFPG take place regularly, is the Minister of State aware of any issues that have been raised in respect of stockpiling? Are there concerns that stockpiling is taking place on yards?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Certainly. This issue has arisen in questions in the Dáil and it has been publicly raised. As a result, it is one of the issues that is discussed.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State referred to his Department having received correspondence today to confirm that the local authorities in question have said they are in compliance. Was that in a response to a query that he or his office made ahead of this meeting? Was it in reply to a query the Minister of State raised with them?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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We specifically asked for it and we received it.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Who did the Minister of State ask for it?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The IFFPG.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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The IFFPG has confirmed to the Minister of State that the local authorities in question are compliant. I presume that means that the farm plastic has been dealt with.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Its contractors’ yards are now in compliance with the local authorities’ terms and conditions.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but that confirmation come from the IFFPG.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Correct.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Mythen.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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My question has already been asked. The IFFPG is saying it is compliant. When did that happen? Did it happen today? Did the Minister of State receive a letter stating that? Is it in writing?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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It was by email. I do not have the exact date on which it was received, but I think it was today.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Can we have-----

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Does the Deputy want a copy of the email?

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, please.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Yes.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is basically okay. We know that farmers are paying on the double. It seems to me that there are between 40,000 tonnes and 50,000 tonnes of plastic out there. One company is saying that the five locations are compliant, but I think that should be looked into in depth. An independent inspection should be carried out on that issue.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I take Deputy Mythen’s point. The relevant bodies for this are the Waste Enforcement Regional Lead Authorities, WERLAs. I will ask for their confirmation that the compliance figures are correct.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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We would appreciate that.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I am suspending the meeting as there is a vote in the Dáil.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The first question is about the letter from the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, stating that as part of the mid-term review there would be a desktop survey of compliance of the storage of farm plastics.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Uncollected farm plastic waste.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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That survey has been done and I am happy to share it with the committee. I have it here and I will send it on through the Chair. Is that all right?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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If the Senator likes I will go through some of it. The scheme is currently achieving a 95% collection rate. It is estimated that between 3,000 tonnes and 4,000 tonnes of farm plastic waste is not collected by the scheme annually. This includes an estimate for unlevied product placed on the market. In terms of what happens to this waste, IFFPG can only speculate that a portion of it is disposed into landfill, small volumes are recycled via household recycling bins, some may be stockpiled on farms and some may be delivered to one or two private collectors who may still be accepting waste. There is no evidence that there is a problem with the illegal management of the waste, with neither the WERLAs nor the local authorities reporting it as an issue. It should be noted that IFFPG can quite accurately quantify in aggregate terms how much farm plastic waste is not being collected annually by the scheme. It has neither the authority nor the ability to identify farmers who are not currently recycling. This is because GDPR prevents the scheme from accessing other organisations' databases to identify such farmers.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I will.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I am a little confused because I think the Senator said that IFFPG is collecting a levy. In fact, the producers have to pay a levy.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Senator is right to say the amount of money IFFPG has is the total amount of levies paid in by producers. For the 5% that did not come back, those levies are still in the account.

That money is unclaimed. It is unlikely we will reach 100% recycling. That is not the target IFFPG is operating to. When we look at other waste streams in society, we are not achieving 100% anywhere else. For example, we get over 80% in glass recycling, but above 90% and 95% are very high numbers for recycling. Ideally, we would recover 100% of plastic but we are not seeing all of it recovered.

Does the Senator want me to go on to the financial viability of the company and the €3 million reserve?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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My assessment from talking to farmers about the scheme is they are generally happy with it and feel it is providing value for money. I feel the IFA is happy with the scheme as well. From the point of view of most of the plastics collected-----

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The issue faced by the scheme and the whole market is the change in the cost of recycling. There was a time this product had a value. It could be sold into the Chinese market and they would use it for something. The value of farm plastic reduced to the point where people had to pay to have it reprocessed. The economics of the scheme have changed and that means more money has to come into the scheme from producers and farmers to support collection and recycling of the product. There have been huge changes and that is why the scheme needs to be regularly reviewed, why the producer organisation only has a five-year term and why we are doing a mid-term review of where that organisation is. It is a difficult business to be in. Collecting farm plastic is not something you can make money from in the way you could in the past. It is not a valuable product to sell back into a recycling facility.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I think the Senator is asking about the product awaiting recycling. It has been collected by a contractor, is in a yard and has not yet gone to a processing facility. We do not keep a tally of that. We know each waste collector has a waste collection permit and is allowed to store only a certain quantity of material by that permit. From the information we have, all the yards are now in compliance.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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It is important the material is not allowed to build up and does get sent for recycling. Part of the oversight of the body is to make sure it is sending product to recycling centres. I understand nearly half of the product is recycled within Ireland and the rest is exported for recycling. The management of recycling waste is monitored and enforced by local authorities. There are strict rules on what can be done with waste and that applies in many other sectors as well. If the Senator is asking if I am worried that the material will never be recycled, I am not, but I am keen that all the rules and regulations are being followed correctly and that there is compliance with all of the rules.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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An interim review on IFFPG was completed in quarter 1 2023 by the Department of the environment. What was the result of that review? There was a document sent to the joint committee in 2021. Does the Department have a copy of that review?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I am told the mid-term review is in process.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No, it was completed in quarter 1 of 2023.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The information I have is the mid-term review is under way. The Deputy has said a mid-term review was completed in quarter 1 of 2023. I am not aware of that and my official tells me she is not aware of it. If the Deputy has information on that, I will go back and chase it down.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. How much farm plastic was exported from this country in the past six months and in all of last year?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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There is a body that monitors waste exports.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Minister of State's officials should have that information. I am talking about farm plastic, nothing else. Make sure it is farm plastic.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The estimate I have for this year is 3,500 tonnes of farm plastic are being exported per month. That is more than 40,000 tonnes for the year.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What was exported in total in 2023? The Department would definitely have those figures.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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For the latest year I have, 2022, it was 55% of material being exported and 45% was kept within the country.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am talking about farm plastic now. Be very clear on that.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Farm plastic, yes.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was all that put out as amber or green? That is gone out of the country. The Department should have that figure. It is either amber or green.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I will come back to the Deputy with detail on the classification of waste that has been exported in different years.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I want the 2023 volume of farm plastics. I do not want to know about other plastics, just farm plastic only.

The Department has given money for research. There were €2 million or €3 million in funds it gave to some companies. How successful has that been? It is making wax for candles or something like that.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Sorry, is the Deputy referring to a particular company that reuses farm plastics for wax for candles?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, there was a company trying to set up the gear to recycle plastic and make it into candle wax.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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There is a range of grant schemes. Typically, this type of farm plastic is used for plastic garden furniture, plastic poles and pots and so on.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No, sorry. Just be clear on this. From every bit of research I have done, the fertiliser bags can be used for that but the farm plastic for bales or silage cannot be used for the plastic stakes, as we call them.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Deputy asked about a company that was receiving a grant for making-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am asking how successful it was. Does the Department know?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I do not know which grant scheme this was. Many companies have been funded through a number of schemes. There is a scheme run by the EPA. There is a scheme called the circular economy innovation scheme. These schemes provide grants to companies to try to find innovative ways to use products that would otherwise end up as waste. These grants can be in the tens of thousands, or sometimes millions. If there is a particular product, grant or company the Deputy wants me to come back with a report on, I can do that. From what he has said, I cannot identify which one it is.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We have done a fair bit of analysis on plastics, as have others. We would be fairly confident there are 35,000 tonnes of plastic lying around in yards in Ireland at the moment. Why did the Department not, as we asked, get an independent body to carry out an estimate or quantification of the amount of plastic that is in those yards?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Those companies are enforced by the local authorities and the WERLAs. Is the Deputy asking me why-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I asked if anybody from the Department did this. It is estimated that around the country, between all the different yards that store plastic and allowing for some that moved in the last three months, there are approximately 35,000 tonnes. Does the Department have an independently verified exact figure to verify whether that is correct or not?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I do not know where that estimate comes from. The waste collection companies are entitled to store waste according to whatever is permitted in their contracts.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know that.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I understand there is a vote in the Dáil so I ask to be excused.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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As the Minister of State wants to be excused, we will suspend.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We will now resume.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Chair, my calendar states that the meeting is scheduled from 5.30 p.m. to 7 p.m. I have other appointments this evening that I need to attend. I can stay here until 7.30 p.m., but I was not aware that I was expected to be here until 8.30 p.m.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Usually, we stay until we get the topic finished. Obviously, the votes that were called in the Dáil interrupted our discussion.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Yes.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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In the majority of cases, witnesses would not leave the committee room when there is a vote but, unfortunately, the Minister of State was voting and was not paired, so we had to suspend. A Senator usually takes on the role of Chair in such circumstances to allow us to continue. Unfortunately, the Minister of State was not paired, although that is not a material issue. Members of the committee have views to air and we need to work through them. We will work through for as long as we can. I cannot force the Minister of State to stay, but we may have to suspend and come back on another day. I might ask the Minster of State to come back to finish-----

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I would be happy to return on another occasion. If that meeting takes place on a Wednesday evening, I will certainly arrange a pair.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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That is okay. I thank the Minister of State. We will work away so.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State has given indications he will stay until 7.30 p.m. and come back to us on another date.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will that date be soon? This is an urgent issue.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Yes.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State gives the impression he will be able to arrange that as soon as he possibly can.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Let us not waste time now.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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The secretariat will look at this and reschedule around the Minister of State's diary. We will make time.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am reading a document on waste plastic recovery. It states that the IFFPG disclosed at this committee that the target of 70% of the farm plastics has been recycled, with up to 90% recycled in 2021 and 88% recycled in 2022. It states the volume of waste plastic being collected each year is in the region of 36,000 or 37,000 tonnes. This is what was collected. On the website, it states that in 2021, IFFPG supplied a third of what it collected in two Irish recycling facilities. It gives the figure for recycling as 6,000 tonnes. There is a fair difference between 6,000 tonnes and 36,000 or 37,000 tonnes. Generally, if you buy 18,000 or 20,000 tonnes of plastic, it will be 40,000 tonnes when it is brought to recycling because it will twice the weight. How can there be two different figures from the same body? How does the Minister of State look at that?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The latest annual report is for 2022 and the 2023 report is due in the coming weeks. If we are having a meeting straight after the next annual report is produced, that would help. On the two sets of numbers-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If we are having a meeting, could the Minister of State have the 2023 figures for exports of farm plastic only and for recycling of farm plastic? None of us are conspiracy theorists, but we have a big concern. We have driven around, some of us have been in some of the factories that recycle plastic and some of us have been around looking at where plastic is stored. Some of us, though not me, have an idea how to quantify the volume of plastic. We would conservatively say, and many members would agree with me, that there is at least 35,000 tonnes of farm plastic lying around the country in yards. This has been gathered from farmers. It is not in farmers' yards put in yards with licences. If we multiply that by what it takes to get rid of the plastic - if it is being baled it will cost €160 or €180 a tonne - the figures do not stack up, between what would be in the kitty and what it would cost to get rid of it, be it in amber, which is how most plastic is going.

I ask the Minister of State to think this over for the next day. Will he appoint an independent person from his Department to assess the quantity of plastic lying that is around the country? Some of us here are talking to private individuals who might be able to do it for us in a fair way. Does the Minister of State have any concerns that, with the best will in the world, given the figures I have on what is being disposed of or exported, there is a balance of plastic lying around?

The other issue on which I would like an answer is this. Some people who were collecting plastic for IFFPG were before us giving presentations. The contract was taken from them but the plastic was not shifted from their sites. There was plastic that a semi-State body got a contract for. I would like to know, and the Department may be able to find out, where all the different loads of plastic collected under that contract went. Did any of it go to a tip?

Why are other people who collect plastic not allowed to draw the levy on it? It has now gone to €286 per tonne and farmers are also paying to have it taken away - some €50 or €100 a tonne more. That is €386 a farmer is paying. We are putting on the farmer the whole time the price of the bale of plastic. We still have not found a proper way to recycle or a proper export facility. Are we solvent at doing it?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. I will not speak about the issue of plastic. Another issue is emerging at the moment in regard to the Connemara Pony Breeders Society. On social media there is speculation that its annual showcase event in August will not go ahead because issues are emerging. Could we schedule something for next week? It seems urgent. The society said it will have an update next Thursday but as a committee with a close association to the west of Ireland and ponies, it is important.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Will Deputy Flaherty make a note to give to the clerk?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Department is reviewing it.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Department is reviewing it.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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In answer to Deputy Fitzmaurice's questions, the first was why there is a discrepancy between the amount that is produced versus the amount collected, or the amount that was recycled by the Irish facilities and so on.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Why do the two sources say two different things?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The difference the Deputy is referring to is the difference between contaminated plastic waste and clean plastic waste, in other words the volume of contaminant versus the volume of plastic. Roughly 18,000 tonnes of plastic are collected and roughly 36,000 tonnes of the contaminated share is counted. Is that the question the Deputy asked?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No, I did not say that. I told the Minister of State earlier that it is twice. He told us 6,000 tonnes was recycled. I do not know whether it was or was not and I do not deny it. However, there is talk about 38,000 tonnes of plastic. We are not doing a third of our plastic recycling. That is the fact. I will give the Minister of State space and time to answer those questions when he comes back. I thank him for coming in this evening. The committee wants an independent person doing a review to calculate the amount of plastics around the country. All members were on board with that. We are not looking for this because we just want to delve into something. We are fearful of the situation that will arise down the line. I hope we are proved wrong.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Deputy asked about people who had plastic which was collected but not shifted from their sites. He asked about a particular semi-State body but without saying which one it is. If he can give me specifics for those questions, I will be happy to answer them. He asked whether there will be an independent assessment or a census of how much plastic is in licensed yards around the country. This is a licensed activity which is enforced by the waste enforcement units. Collectors are licensed by the National Waste Collection Permit Office. They operate under contract and with permissions that they have been granted. We do not have a day-to-day assessment of how much waste they have. However, they are subject to enforcement subject to compliance.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will make it simpler. Can we have figures for what was exported in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023?

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I believe all that data is in the annual reports and that the new annual report will be available next week. I will collate it for the Deputy, if he wishes.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I would like that.

I would like to know what was exported and what is estimated to be there now. We will soon get the figures.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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To summarise, the view of the committee is that there is a potential time bomb in that we could have plastic collected and not recycled. It is a simple enough ask. A levy has been paid and collected and we are worried that there potentially could be a scenario where this entity might move or change and the State could be left with an issue. We are just trying to work out the volumes and we will then have an indication of whether our fears are appropriate. I point out to the Minister of State that we are caught for time.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I appreciate that. I am happy to come back in a couple of weeks. I would suggest that the period after the next annual report comes out might be a good time. I can collate that data for the committee and answer any questions that came up today that I was not able to immediately answer.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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If we are agreed, we will adjourn and come back to the issue. I thank the Minister of State and his officials. The next public meeting of the joint committee is at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 May, when the committee will engage with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on issues regarding the Department.