Mr. Barry Kenny:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today to discuss the public petition relating to a walking and cycling greenway on the closed railway from Sligo to Athenry. I relay to the Chairman the apologies of our chief executive, Mr. Jim Meade, who was unavailable today.

In addressing the matter raised under this public petition, I propose to address Iarnród Éireann’s policy generally as it relates to greenways and other alternative uses of disused rail alignments, and how this specifically applies to the Sligo to Athenry alignment. Iarnród Éireann wants to see the role of rail in meeting the transport needs of our country expand. We are about to embark on the most significant expansion of our rail network in generations. The draft all-island strategic rail review, prepared by the Department of Transport in Ireland and the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, outlines the strategic pathway we will take up to 2050.

The fact the draft review has been developed by the two Departments illustrates that it is ultimately public policy that will determine the likelihood of specific alignments being developed.

With our colleagues in CIÉ Group property, we have in the past licensed alternative uses for closed or disused rail alignments where there is no realistic prospect in the policy timeframe which has been defined for the re-establishment of rail. Examples of alignments which remain in the ownership of CIÉ but which have been licensed to local authorities for use as a greenway include Navan to Kingscourt, Athlone to Mullingar, Midleton to Youghal and Rathkeale to Abbeyfeale. Our policy indicates a preference that the relevant local authority should be directly involved in the development of the alternative use. These examples we have supported in the past have clear benefits. They protect the alignment from adverse possession, ensure it is fully maintained should there be a future requirement to reinstate rail services, provide a public amenity in public ownership through the development of a leisure facility and transfer the costs of maintenance and upkeep to the local authority, which ensures Iarnród Éireann can focus its resources on the operational rail network. Crucially, we have established licence arrangements which state that, should a requirement for the alignment to be used for rail operations emerge at any point, a six-month notice clause can be invoked to cancel the licence so that the alignment can revert to our control for development and delivery of rail services.

To bring this general outlook to the specifics of Athenry to Sligo, this alignment has been closed to rail services since 1975 between Claremorris and Collooney, and since 1997 between Athenry and Claremorris, both latterly freight-only lines. However, there has been active consideration by Government Departments and agencies of the potential for various sections of the alignment to be re-established as rail line over recent years as part of a western rail corridor, a concept we very much support. Most recently, the draft all-island strategic rail review has indicated support for the re-establishment of rail services on the Athenry to Claremorris section, but does not include Claremorris to Collooney. With Athenry to Claremorris indicated as commencing within this decade, clearly this will be re-established as a rail line.

We ultimately wish to see the re-establishment of rail services between Claremorris and Collooney also. However, heretofore this has not been included in indicated public policy positions. As a result, Iarnród Éireann and CIÉ Group property have engaged with both Mayo County Council and Sligo County Council on alternative uses for the alignment in the context of the licence condition which would see it revert to us with six months' notice. Mayo County Council has established a Velorail operation over a ten-mile section of the alignment centred on Kiltimagh station. The current licence runs to March 2030, with the six-month notice clause applying. Separately, Sligo County Council has indicated it wishes to develop a greenway between Collooney and Bellaghy on the county border. Iarnród Éireann has facilitated these studies and, subject to the draft all-island rail review being confirmed, will engage with Sligo County Council on this. Should Sligo County Council secure the necessary funding and approvals to progress the project, it will be clear that it is solely on the condition that a licence will issue with a six-month clause should its re-establishment as a railway be supported.

On both being delivered in parallel, the original alignment was largely single line, which means that within our land take it would be challenging to deliver both. That said, if a local authority supported, where a lane was being established, a parallel greenway and there were land takes involved, we would work with the local authority. There are economies of scale if there was a wish from a local authority perspective to do both at the same time. Within their own footprint, it is unlikely both could be supported.

I trust this clarifies our position. We believe we are at a unique moment in time when the rail network can expand and do much more for people's travel options. In the circumstances I have outlined, we would facilitate some greenway development.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I am chief executive of Mayo County Council and am accompanied by Mr. John McMyler, senior planner for Mayo County Council. I thank the committee for its invitation to contribute to the discussions regarding the petition on creating a walking and cycling greenway on the closed railway from Sligo to Athenry.

The committee will be aware that the western rail corridor and its future potential have been the subject of much reporting and debate over many years. In this regard, it is useful to reflect on the policy in respect of this rail line as outlined in relevant policy documents at national, regional and local level. In a more detailed submission, I have outlined those but will not go through them today, save for a synopsis.

The current national development plan refers to the all-island strategic rail review, indicating that the western rail corridor has the potential to revitalise the west of Ireland and that the review would examine how it would be delivered. The SEA consultation report for the review was published in July 2023 and it appears from that document there is strong support for the opening of the rail link between Claremorris and Athenry but not for the section north of Claremorris at this time.

The Regional Spatial and Economic Strategy 2020-2032, in objective RPO 6.13, supports the delivery of the railway line from Athenry through Tuam and Claremorris to Sligo for both passenger and freight, and expresses the view that the western rail corridor is of strategic importance as it represents a piece of key enabling and sustainable transport infrastructure for the region and presents an opportunity to effect transformational change in the realisation of the Atlantic economic corridor. It can link the economies of three major centres in this region - Limerick, Galway and Sligo - and Ireland West Airport strategic development zone, SDZ.

The potential of this infrastructure is recognised in the narrative, policies and objectives of successive Mayo county development plans since 1978. The current Mayo county development plan for 2022 to 2028 and preceding plans contain clear policies supporting the reopening of the western rail corridor while seeking to protect the line from other uses in the interim. In addition, Galway County Council in its county development plan states that the disused rail line between Athenry and Claremorris via Tuam provides the potential for additional rail services to the north of the county and the extension of the western rail corridor to provide rail access to the north west of the country. The current Galway county development plan includes an objective to support the opening of the western rail corridor from Athenry through Tuam and Claremorris to Collooney as an option for passenger and cargo transportation.

The policy of Mayo County Council in respect of the western rail corridor, as guided by the elected members and as outlined in the country development plan, has been consistent and unequivocal over a long period and has been adopted by successive councils. The members have adopted an approach of seeking to have the western rail corridor in its entirety from Athenry to Sligo reopened for both passenger and freight traffic. They have also clearly sought to protect the future potential of this route from any other development which might be proposed as an interim use pending this reopening. They have made a deliberate decision to support the use of a section of the railway at Kiltimagh for a Velorail project pending its reopening for passenger and rail traffic. The 2014 to 2020 country development plan made specific reference to protecting and safeguarding the route from development for non-transport related purposes, while the current county development plan adopts the position that the route should be removed from any feasibility study for a proposed greenway.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for their opening statements. I am very disappointed the Department has not turned up. I believe it sent its apologies and said the reason it could not be here is it is launching the all-Ireland strategic rail review. However, it is my understanding that is not actually happening today. I do not know what excuse the Department has for not being here. There are a number of issues but, to some extent, the overall question we are looking at will be answered by what is in that review. It is important the Department should be here. In the more general context, for example, for the Sligo-Dublin rail link, we are looking to see whether double-tracking from Mullingar to Maynooth will be approved. It is my understanding, and Mr. Kenny can confirm this, that Irish Rail is awaiting that review to see if funding can be put in place to do this.

There is an absolute need for that document to be put before us. I am horribly disappointed that, once again, there is a delay with this. There has been one excuse after another. Those excuses are all gone. In the context of today-----

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Yes, we were all told

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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We were all told that but we have confirmation from the Minister's office that it is not happening.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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In the context of what we are discussing, it still leaves us in a state of flux,. We have to work from where we are today, however.

I go back to Mr. Kenny's comments. It is my understanding that said that the agreement is that if greenways are placed on closed railway lines, they be built under strict licence in order that rail will always have priority if a route is needed. That safeguards the line for future rail development. Does Mr. Kenny agree that putting a greenway on a closed rail route keeps it in public ownership? He said he wants the local authorities to be involved. It also protects the route from squatters and, I presume, would stabilise the infrastructure. I would like to hear Mr. Kenny's view on whether it would be of benefit in the longer term, should a railway be built on it subsequently?

Mr. Kenny stated that Iarnród Éireann's policy is to build the western rail corridor, certainly as far as Claremorris, but that it will be determined by public policy and that Iarnród Éireann follows public policy. That is my complaint. Once again, we have no clear direction on public policy today. We have heard lots of rumours. I will not say what they are because they are all we have and that leaves us in this flux.

I heard what Mr. Kelly from Mayo County Council said and while I might not agree, I fully understand that the members of Mayo County Council are all elected representatives and are as entitled as we are or anyone else is, to put into their county plan what they want and to make their views known. The plan states:

That the western rail corridor (WRC) is protected and preserved for the delivery of Rail Infrastructure to develop the region and the corridor is completely removed from any feasibility study in relation to any proposed greenway.

Why is that sentence included in the plan? I do not understand what the rationale is for excluding it from a feasibility study. It is not being excluded from progressing a greenway, but from looking at the feasibility. If you want to make a decision about something, you have to take all the evidence into consideration. A feasibility study looks at the pros and cons, the pluses and minuses. Will Mr. Kelly tell me what the rationale is for that aspect being closed? I say that in full understanding of the fact that it is entirely appropriate for Mayo County Council to make that decision. I am not criticising the fact it was made. I am simply asking what Mr. Kelly thinks the rationale for it is.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

We will take those in order. On the first point about the benefits of the licence arrangement, it comes down, as I said, to timescales. It would be foolhardy to start talking about licensing a greenway on the Athenry to Claremorris route because we know from the draft rail review that is a short-term project.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Yes.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

We are in a very different world from where we were a few years ago with respect to the funding and support for the existing railway and the ambition for the future of the network. We are talking about the 19th century since expansion of this nature was proposed. It is reasonable to say that in the past one could have been easily blinded by the underfunded environment. We now very much see that we are in an era of addressing climate issues and building more sustainable travel options. The company, our chief executive, Mr. Jim Meade, our chair Mr. Steve Murphy and his predecessor Frank Allen, were all very much of a mindset that we can deliver rail services. It will ultimately be up to others to tell us the speed of the funding and therefore the delivery. That is why the we say that the ambition of the full western rail corridor is something we support and wish to see. As I said, Athenry to Claremorris is short term in the draft review. Claremorris to Collooney is currently not included in that. That is the circumstance under which we would engage with Sligo on any potential development. We would have to be open and clear with Sligo about the restriction of six months.

On the wider point of public policy, it is not for me to defend other entities, but to be fair, a full draft rail review that was published for public consultation on the environment is more than rumour. It is a clear direction. We have been involved directly in the steering committee.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I just meant the rumour of what might or might not be included.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

As I say, we have a reasonably clear pathway ahead. It is expansionary and it will see a lot more railway lines-----

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Would Mr. Kenny like to elaborate on the circumstances of which we are speaking?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I have no idea what engagement has happened between the Department and the committee.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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That is the point I am making.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I just make the point that the report is quite comprehensive and we are talking about hundreds of kilometres of railway being delivered in the life of the rail review.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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The question I asked was whether, in Mr. Kenny's opinion, putting a greenway on part of that route would help to preserve it from squatters and perhaps whether whatever infrastructure would be needed to build the greenway would be important to keep it in that condition in order that if a railway line were to be built any time in the future, it would be easier to start.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Having a greenway there in the interim does not make it any easier or harder to develop a railway, but, certainly, if in the lifetime of the rail review, which is up to 2050, there is no provision for it to be developed, it does protect from encroachment.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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That is my question.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It addresses that issue, but from an engineering perspective it does not make it harder or easier.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I suppose it is fair to say that the elected members in Mayo County Council played a proactive role in the formation of the development plan. While I had many detailed discussions on many aspects of it, I did not have a particular discussion with them on that wording, so I can only offer my perception, which is that the thinking was that having a feasibility study option included, might in some way weaken the case for rail restoration and-or give rise to an expectation around greenway provision that was not supported by the members in terms of policy direction. However, as I said, I did not have any direct discussion with the members on that wording.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Did they say why? Mr. Kelly might not have had any direct discussion. Was that their rationale for not even thinking to allow a feasibility study?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I do not recall without reflecting back on the minutes of the meeting. I certainly recall discussions around the western rail corridor as an issue for the elected members. It was probably raised in my first encounter with them even prior to taking the job. I do not recall a detailed discussion during those meetings on the development plan that would have elucidated the thinking in any way behind that particular work.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I have just a final comment as my time is up. My perspective is that putting a greenway in place in no way, as Mr. Kenny said, negatively impacts on the possibility of a rail link in the future. While we still await the strategic rail review to see what may be delivered up to 2050, which does leave us in a flux, it is nonetheless very important to say that putting a greenway in place will not in any way negatively impact on the possibility to build a rail link from Claremorris to Sligo. To a large extent that is the basis of the petitioner's case here today. I will now leave it to other members.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to speak. I welcome my Mayo colleagues and also Mr. Kenny. I do not believe we are here to second guess the mandate that has been given to the councillors on Mayo County Council, particularly with regard to the western rail corridor. It means an awful lot to the people of County Mayo and has done for many years now. I hear what the witnesses are saying and I am pleased they have said they can deliver rail services and support the full western rail corridor. That is what we are looking at here. We can see the Wild Atlantic Way and the benefits it has brought along the western seaboard. We need this infrastructure to do that. I hear what the witnesses are saying that the railway should be protected and reserved for use for rail. Obviously a greenway can be developed alongside that. Everyone in Mayo would support that with a greenway being developed alongside it.

We are here in the context of legislation going though these Houses at the moment for the strategic investment funds; funds where we put away billions of euro. Our argument is that absolutely we should do that with our windfall taxes but we have to rebalance the regions as well. This is a vital piece of infrastructure that can do so. The funding is there to be able to do it. Notwithstanding the national railway review, it is a Government decision on where to allocate resources. If there was to be a new Government in place tomorrow morning that was to decide, given considerations of climate change, connectivity and the development of the west and a rebalance of everything, that investment would be put into the full of the western rail corridor, then I understand that could be done. Will Mr. Kenny tell me if I am reading this right? If the resources were to be allocated, is there another impediment that would stop the railway being done?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

No. We own the alignment, which is a huge benefit.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. That is really good. How much would it take in the interim to preserve the rail track as it is and keep it in good shape until such time as that money would be front-loaded to do that?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

The rail infrastructure such as is there is not really of any value to a future reopening. It has been disused for so long that ultimately we would be talking about a completely new rail track, bed, rails, sleepers and everything. That there is some older infrastructure is not an enormous benefit really. One would be starting over, as it were. There is just the land and the alignment.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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So once the land is protected there is no benefit to having a greenway there beforehand or afterwards. We then must put in the infrastructure along the line to make it happen. Is that the case?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Yes.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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My next question is for Mayo County Council around investment decisions. If the decision was to be made politically in the short and the medium term to continue that line, would Mayo County Council be supportive of that?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Is that to continue-----

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If the investment was there tomorrow morning and if the investment decision was made. For example, if we have an €8.5 billion surplus this year and we were looking to put it into the funds for future investment and that investment was to be to be made in the whole of the line, would Mayo County Council support that?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Yes. The policy that has been outlined by the members since 1978 is to support the reopening of the western rail corridor.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If something is not in the national rail review as it is now, would that be an impediment to this being done were the decision to be made? Are we confined, constrained or constricted in any way in developing the full line just because it is not in the rail review?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

It is my understanding that normally in significant capital projects it is set out in the national infrastructure plan or the national development plan and therefore it gives rise to an expectation. In practical terms, however, there is not an absolute bar on something happening if the political will is there to pursue it.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Particularly if we had the political will on both sides of the island and we had the connectivity North and South to bring the railway line up along the whole of the western seaboard. Those are all my questions. It is quite obvious that we can have a greenway parallel to a railway line. It is absolutely imperative and I would not be doing my job here today if I did not stand up and represent the people of Mayo to say how important the western rail corridor is to us and our transport spokesperson here, Deputy Martin Kenny, who will speak as well. It is absolutely the policy of the Sinn Féin party to open the whole of the western rail corridor because we see the catalyst it can be to ensure the whole development of the west and to have positive discrimination for the west.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Mr. Kelly will inform us on the county development plan process and how things operate. Will he give us a timeline regarding when the next review of the county development plan will happen? Where are we with the county development plan process? I am aware it is an ongoing process. What are the timelines for a proposed review of this plan to take place? Perhaps the chief planner will answer if Mr. Kelly deems that appropriate.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I will ask Mr. McMyler to come in here.

Mr. John McMyler:

The current plan came into effect in January 2023 so we will have a two-year midterm review in January 2025. That is the next time we will do a review, albeit not a full review. It is a review of the objectives.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is it a seven year plan?

Mr. John McMyler:

It is a six-year plan. It runs from 2022 to 2028.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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So the timelines for any change or review of the current development plan would happen in that kind of timeline. We are looking at probably four years away to some degree. Would that be fair?

Mr. John McMyler:

It will commence two years before it is due. It will commence in 2026.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Will that involve public consultation, submissions, going through the members twice, back up with the manager's report and everything else that happens in between?

Mr. John McMyler:

That is the process.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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The council's problem is that a change in national policy would impact on that plan. The only option the council would have to change the plan then would be some kind of contravention of the county development plan. Would that be appropriate? Would that be how the council could do it if it needed to change the county development plan in the case of a national policy change? Would it be through a contravention?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

A variation.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Yes, sorry.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Yes, that would be the process. That would have happened in counties where there was a piece of infrastructure that was to be delivered which was not clearly supported in the county development plan. There would be a variation.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is there a history within Mayo County Council, or Galway County Council previously, of going through contraventions or variations of this nature in the witnesses' experience? Have they done this before? Is it a practice? Is it something they do on a yearly or maybe a two- or three-year basis?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I am not long enough in Mayo County Council to know the history there but in the last one I recall in Galway we varied the city and county development plans to support the Galway city ring road, for example.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Just so I can get my head straight on this, am I correct to say that the only way a variation would happen is if it is basically brought forward by the management? Is it a reserved function of the management when it comes to the actual county development plan process?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Technically, from my understanding of the legislation, which is hard to keep up to, the variation would have to be initiated by the chief executive-----

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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And then passed by the council.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

And then passed to the members, who would make the decision in policy terms.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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If there were to be a change in national policy and then a change in the county development plan, the executive or management would have to initiate the proposal and send it to the members for agreement.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Yes, including the full public consultation process.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I forgot the most important part. That sets out how a change would happen if there were to be one. Realistically, a change would happen only if there were a change in national policy. Is that a fair reflection on an argument like this?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Correct.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Very good.

If Mr. Kenny was to propose a reinstatement of the railway lines, would a planning permission process be required? What process must be gone through where infrastructure exists on a line?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It can differ. For example, the reinstatement of the Limerick–Foynes freight line, which we are currently engaged in, is effectively happening as a track renewal project. There is no planning permission process. Issues can arise where there are land takes, particularly if working around level crossings. In a best-case scenario, one would like to minimise the number of level crossings, but it is not always possible. To do it, a small number of land takes are needed on both sides of a level crossing. It depends on the circumstances. It can be advantageous to have a railway order process, which is the rail equivalent of planning permission through An Bord Pleanála. We are now in this process. There has recently been an oral hearing on Metrolink.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Does the planning permission application go straight to An Bord Pleanála and not the local authority?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Correct.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kenny might explain the process.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Effectively, it is for strategic infrastructure. Specifically, the railway order process is for rail infrastructure. Typically, there would be at least two rounds of non-statutory public consultation directly between Iarnród Éireann and affected communities, and obviously the wider public. Then we would formally lodge an application for a railway order to An Bord Pleanála. It would be open to anybody to make applications, submissions or objections, or leave messages of support. An Bord Pleanála would then consider the proposal. It is within its gift to include an oral hearing. Of relevance in this regard is our programme to remove a number of level crossings on the Dublin–Cork line. There is a very small number left. I believe there are seven. We went the railway order route to achieve the works. An Bord Pleanála held an oral hearing and is currently considering the proposal. Ultimately, when we are granted a railway order, we get planning permission to carry out the works, but we do not get the money as that involves a funding decision. As part of the permission, CPO powers are granted if needed. The preference is always to achieve any temporary or permanent land acquisition by negotiation. It differs depending on the project, but both options are available.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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If planning permission was sought for a cycleway or greenway, would it involve a Part 8 process involving the members of the local authority? What planning process would the local authority use in this scenario?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I think it could be either. Depending on the environmental issues that might arise, a full, appropriate assessment might be required. It could have to go directly to the board. Theoretically, there could be a Part 8 process, but it would depend on the detail.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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How is it managed if a railway and greenway are proposed for the same line? Is a railway order used or a Part 8 process? How are both applications combined in this scenario to adhere to the regulations?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

My understanding from what Mr. Kenny outlined is that there would be a physical constraint regarding land availability. I assume additional land would be required and, therefore, there would seem to be at least the prospect of a division in the red lines between the greenway part and the railway part. There would have to be that division in the context of the legislative framework underpinning each process.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Kelly, Mr. McMyler and Mr. Kenny to the committee. I agree that it is time that the all-Ireland rail review was published. We have waited long enough. If it is not published today, I hope it will be published next week and that we will have certainty on the issues pertaining to the western rail corridor and the relevant campaigns. Having been a local councillor, my experience of local councillors is that they all do and advocate what is best for their communities. Whether they are in counties Sligo or Mayo, they do what they think is best. Over a long number of years, we have allowed two equally valid campaigns that are in competition with each other. Some of the online campaigning was quite nasty, perhaps not at the time of the last local election but at the time of the one before. It did not help anybody's cause. Irrespective of what happens, I hope we do not see it repeated. It is safe to say that there is now support for the reopening of the western rail corridor, certainly to Claremorris, in the short term. I commend West=on=Track, which has done much campaigning over the years to protect and preserve the line and the reality of the rail connectivity. It was being vilified for this in some quarters, but that is not to say there could not be a greenway in the area, in parallel or in another form. However, it seems to be accepted that the line will reopen in the short term.

There are two sections, namely the section within the Mayo border and the section within the Sligo border, to allow for the renewal of the line all the way up and for the completion of the western rail corridor. In any planning application, cognisance would be taken of the local county development plan. Mayo councillors have pledged their support for the western rail corridor, as is their democratic right. I apologise but I am not sure of the wording in the Sligo county development plan. It may be more in support of a greenway. How would it work if the county development plans of two adjoining counties had differing views on the same project? How would it operate in the planning application?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

As it stands, we have different approaches. The Velorail project has been developed and Sligo County Council was involved at the very early stages of exploring a greenway option. Ultimately, these are matters for the local authorities to concern themselves with. As it is, there are slightly different approaches to interim use. We are speaking in the context of a draft review. I await its finalisation.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Ultimately, the board can form a view on anything that goes to it. Up to this point, it has had the capacity to contravene a county development plan to approve a project.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the northern section, from Claremorris upwards, there has been some talk to the effect that the alignment is not practical for rail and that land take, etc., would be required. From Mr. Kenny's experience, is that the case?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Ultimately, these things require detailed design and study, but there is nothing that works against the rail alignment. All the studies heretofore have considered the original alignment and none has concluded a railway could be built. On a per kilometre basis, the assessments have always stated there is a higher cost-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Or to have level crossings?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It is one of the factors. There is also the original construction. There is an engineering solution for everything. There has never been a study from Iarnród Éireann or other transport professionals in third parties that has stated a railway cannot be built in a place. We quite clearly can.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I had this discussion when West on Track came before the transport committee. If a greenway was developed on the northern section and it was decided subsequently that a railway were to be built, the removal of the greenway would be an added cost. Would this added cost be looked at in terms of the business case and the cost-benefit analysis of the rail project? Would it mitigate the delivery of the rail?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

The business case will assess all costs. Ultimately, in all circumstances we are speaking about a new track bed and new track, whether it is on the ground, as it is now, or it is with a greenway. As I said earlier, if, ultimately, there is an ambition for both and it is something that local authorities want to pursue we will be very happy to engage with the local authorities on it. The delivery of a greenway alongside a railway would be a project for the local authorities to progress. We would definitely work with them in this context to facilitate it. Dual delivery for a project would be more efficient.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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If a greenway were to be developed is the decision made between Iarnród Eireann as owners of the track and the local authorities? Would it require ministerial approval? What are the parameters of the decisions made?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

We would engage with the Department of Transport in the context of the public policy as it stands today. In other areas, as I have detailed, we engage on projects with the local authority. The planning process and all of this is something the local authority is responsible for. It takes responsibility for the management of the alignment, of the delivery and of the ongoing maintenance. All of this would simply transfer with the break clause that is included.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I am very glad these hearings are happening. Anything that gives us an opportunity to speak about this and try to tease out the difficulties and how we can progress all of these projects is very welcome. Ultimately, we need to see the western rail corridor fully developed the whole way along. This is the ambition of the vast majority of people living in the west and we recognise this. We also need to see our tourism and active travel input being developed. We need to see greenways put in everywhere we possibly can. It should not be either-or, and none of us wants to see it as this.

Mr. Kenny mentioned there may be some difficulties with putting the greenway alongside the rail track. If we had this in place in 15 years' time it would be the optimum solution. We would have active travel and rail. It would tick all the boxes with regard to complying with our climate ambitions. To do this would be a tremendous achievement. Mr. Kenny mentioned that there may be difficulties with regard to the land and the amount of space there is. Are there options or can options be looked at in order that we could develop both? How much more expensive would it be than to put down just a rail line?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I am speaking in the context of the alignment that we own today. Significant sections of this alignment having originally been developed as single track, with passing sections of track to facilitate frequency. If we look exclusively at the alignment that remains in our ownership it is challenging. It would probably be foolish just to look at this. If, as is anticipated, we develop Athenry to Claremorris, and the local authorities are keen to develop a greenway as well as the railway when it is being developed, there could not be a better time to do it and to engage with the landowners, with whom we would be engaging anyway as part of the project development, to have whatever strip of land bounding the alignment developed at the same time. It would be a different delivery agency but we would work with local authorities in this context. It is easy to look at it narrowly in our land ownership but this is probably the wrong way to approach it, particularly, as Deputy Kenny said, there is general community support for better public transport infrastructure and active travel infrastructure.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure that in County Mayo the pathway for the greenways being developed required deviation from an old railway line. I know this happens in many areas. There are negotiations with farmers to enable it to happen. In my experience, there is always a solution to be found if people come to these things with a solution-focused mindset and try to find a way around it. This is certainly the case in this context.

Doing both together would certainly be easier. For instance, if we were to put the greenway alongside the existing rail track and then come in afterwards, five years later, to build a railway line there would clearly be a major amount of disruption and possibly damage to the greenway. This is something that needs to be borne in mind. Doing both together at the same time would be the optimum way of doing it. Vice versa, if the railway were to be done first and then we try to build a greenway later it would not be the way to progress. We should try to do everything together. When machinery and equipment are there on that part of the track it is the time to do everything. In this context, does Mr. Kenny think there would be an additional delay in developing both in the twin-track approach I am speaking about rather than doing them singly?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It would be a bigger project, obviously, so therefore the design would need to allow for this. We are speaking before looking at a preliminary design or anything like it. It would not logically be something that would be inordinate to overcome. In doing a parallel alignment we would come across the same level crossings and the same bridges. The common issues are there. Potentially, and certainly with issues such as bridges, quite obviously if we develop with a mind to accommodate two modes and two services it would be more efficient than doing the two separately.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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One of the first things that jumps to mind with regard to efficiency is that we would probably be employing one set of engineers rather than two. This is one of the big costs I always see when any of these things come into play.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

How this works between various agencies is something that can be worked out but it is far from insurmountable.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is feasible and more practical to do it in this way.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Yes.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The issue that comes to bear in all of this is that there has been a legitimate campaign to have a greenway on the rail line and there has been an equally legitimate campaign, and in my view a more urgent campaign, to see the rail line fully reopened. It would do more for the area. It would provide something that is crucial to link economic centres such as Sligo to Galway and down to Limerick. It would do more to integrate communities and rebalance the imbalance there has been between the west and east of the country. We would be putting in place long-term infrastructure around which we can build the economy. This is why I see the rail line as being crucial. I see as an advantage to the rail line the development of a greenway along with it. It is equally important. We are in a situation where, unfortunately, there is competition between both. I hope we will be able to take from the discussions we have had at this meeting and at previous meetings.

I hope, with the co-operation of everyone with an interest in this, that we can find a pathway forward to develop both together and unite all of our attention and pressure to deliver both together. The all-island rail review will come up with recommendations. Reviews come up with recommendations all the time. There is a national development plan, all of these plans and various pieces of work put on shelves and left there sometimes for centuries, never mind generations, and nothing happens. We need to see a commitment to make this happen. That is my perspective as a person from the west of Ireland, from a Sligo-Leitrim perspective and west coast perspective. We need to deliver on this. Making it a deliverable project is the key thing that has to happen for the railway, the greenways and everything else we can build in order to build our economy and communities in the west. I hope Irish Rail will recognise that. This is not just about having a rail line that will connect two parts of the country. It is about building a community that can be more resilient and sustainable into the future. I hope Irish Rail can recognise that and put whatever pressure it can on the Department of Transport and the Minister to ensure we deliver the entire western rail corridor and, I hope, the greenway alongside it.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Some of the questions I was going to ask have already been asked so I will keep it short. I welcome Mr. Kenny. It is good to see Mr. Kelly again. We have not met in a while. I also welcome Mr. McMyler. I come to this issue with an open mind. I am a big fan of walking and cycling and I also like railway lines. I travel more on public transport than I used to. Is there any part of any railway line in County Mayo that has been developed for active travel? Has any part of the old railway tracks been developed?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

The great western greenway - the original greenway.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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All of it?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

It was all on a rail line.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I join others in saying it is time that the report was published. We are sort of in a vacuum. We do not know what is supposed to be coming. Given that we do not have that report, how long does Mr. Kenny think, realistically, it would take to redevelop that line to the point of it being open for rail business, if we were to get a positive in the report now?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It is down to the phasing of funding. As mentioned, quite a lot has been committed within the report. If one looks at the first phase of the western rail corridor from Ennis to Athenry, which delivered the direct Limerick to Galway services, that was funding over a three to four year timescale. There is nothing peculiar about the remainder of the western rail corridor that would elongate that significantly. In infrastructure terms, it is a relatively short delivery timescale for generations of benefit.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Kenny saying it could happen in four or five years if we got a positive in the report, if the Government was to fund it?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

If one looks at Athenry to Claremorris in the draft all-island strategic rail review, it is indicated within the short-term timescale up to 2030, which is not a whole lot longer than the four years or so I just mentioned.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Travelling a lot up and down the country, the most annoying thing to see is railway tracks lying disused and falling into disrepair. If this was to be a prolonged venture, how much damage would be done to the present line? Obviously, infrastructure deteriorates. It is a concern I have. The more the infrastructure deteriorates with nothing on it, the more expensive it will be. Railway lines will be destroyed if they are not developed in some shape or form.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

As I said earlier, it would be a full renewal, regardless. It would be a new track bed and new rails along the full alignment. Further time would not have a particular significant impact in that regard. We have been doing vegetation clearance and reasserting ownership. Going back to Deputy Ó Cuív, there was the CLÁR programme a number of years ago. There was recent funding to protect that alignment. There is a modest cost in going in and doing that type of thing from time to time to keep the alignment clear but there is no significant difference in capital costs, bar, of course, that capital cost always goes up the longer one leaves it.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I have an open question for my own information. If snags come up and this is pushed out, would Mr. Kenny see any positive in putting railway down on the line in the short term until such a time as there is clearance to develop it? If Mr. Kenny is saying it will happen in four or five years, I can accept that is short term, but one feels with these projects that they will be prolonged, even if we get a positive report. In Mr. Kenny or Mr. Kelly's mind, if this was pushed out, would they see any benefit in putting the greenway there in the short term for a number of years? Would that protect it to a certain extent?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

If one is talking either the short or medium term within the definitions of the rail review, it would not be the wisest investment to develop a greenway like Athenry to Claremorris, as an example. Even if it went into the early 2030s, that is still a relatively short term. The time it would take to deliver a greenway and then replace it would not seem sensible. As I said earlier, while Claremorris to Collooney is not included in the rail review, ultimately, we would like to see the railway developed. As we currently understand, it is not funded up to 2050, so there is potential in that circumstance for a greenway but exclusively on the basis that we have the licence clause that states that if circumstances, the development or business case change, we can invoke the six-month clause to take that alignment back and deliver the railway line.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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On Mayo County Council, I accept that councillors voted in the county development plan to see the development of that line. Did they make any other suggestions, if it was a prolonged development, to do anything with it in the meantime to save the infrastructure? Can Mr. Kelly recall if there was anything like that in the county development plan?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I do not think so. The members are supportive of a greenway but not on the line of the western rail corridor.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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First, I would like to put on the record that I was involved in the development of the first greenway on the abandoned railway line - which is very different from a disused railway line - from Westport westward on the old Achill line. I support the development of greenways but one does not destroy one thing to develop another. That is vandalism. One should build the new thing in a way to preserve a useful asset. I am probably the only person in the room who travelled on the Harcourt Street railway line. It was the line from Harcourt Street in Dublin to Bray. We now know it as the green Luas line. It was abandoned and sold up and a good section of it was repurchased. It was thought, amazingly, when it closed in 1959, that there would never be enough development in Dundrum to hold not only the whole line but even part of it. I invite anybody now to go that route and look at how changed the world is in a way that was unforeseen in 1959. Even over a relatively short period - it has been open for 20 years - there were massive changes.

I recall when the study of need was done on the motorways by the National Roads Authority.

It sounds ludicrous now, but what these professionals proposed was to build a motorway from Dublin to Athlone and from Ballinasloe to Galway. However, they said that the bit between Ballinasloe and Athlone would be fine as single-carriageway road, on the existing alignment. The Government came in and had a bit of common sense about it and said that if it was being built that far to build the whole thing. I do not think anyone who travels that road would say that was a foolish decision. The point I am making is that Government is the ultimate arbitrator of all of this in terms of funding. Things can change and new governments can have new policies. Therefore, I welcome the rail strategy because it gives us long-term vision but it is not going to be a totally inflexible document that no government can touch or change over the coming years.

Can Mr. Kenny tell me how many NDPs back did the Foynes to Limerick reopening come on the radar for Iarnród Éireann?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It is something that has always been there as an option.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When did Government make a decision that it was going to do it?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Within the last two or three years.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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So there was not a long 20-year plan that it was included in.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

No, but what did happen was we developed a rail freight strategy. I do not wish to go into too much depth of detail here but we have seen significant changes in the movement of goods around the country. Rail freight has become quite a niche player.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In the north west.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Yes. This happened for a number of reasons. We developed a rail freight strategy to indicate how the policy and investment decisions that were needed to reassert and ensure that we had a strong, sustainable and viable rail freight offering could start to bring us back towards the typical offerings and presence that can be seen in Europe. Part of this meant linking tier 1 ports. Shannon Foynes is one of these. As climate action became a far stronger consideration, there was very clear policy support to do that. We own the alignment, so it is relatively straightforward. It is not a planning process as such but it is effectively a track renewal project. The Deputy is correct, ultimately it came about quite quickly in the end. Thankfully, we are doing the work now and we are on target to have it open in late 2025 or early 2026.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We can confirm the figures because Mr. Kenny gave them to me. When the connection was made between Limerick and Galway, many people said it would not work. The figures are: Limerick to Ennis, 86,130 passengers in 2022; Ennis to Athenry, 214,648; Athenry to Galway, 229,000; and Oranmore to Galway, 97,000. That is a total of 626,778. Am I right in thinking that the main constraint on growth of passenger numbers on the line now is that the platforms are too short and there are not enough passing loops?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Yes, they are the two major factors, along with fleet availability.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a lack of passengers.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

No, absolutely not. The line opened just as the recession hit the economy in a very serious way. This suppressed demand for the first couple of years but it has now surged. For a number of years, it has been the fastest-growing line on our network due to many factors. We are seeing a lot more daily commuting, a huge student population and many more tourists. It allows people to see a bit more of the country, so it is a real success story. It far outstrips the projections made for it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Good. The opening of the Athenry to Claremorris line is now accepted by most people as a given. If this were to open by 2030, we could very quickly find that the line, with the connections to Castlebar, Westport and Ballina would far outstrip any of the projections that have been put forward in various documents, to date. Reality can outstrip projection, particularly in a rising tide of population.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I have been with the company for 30 years and others who have been even longer will say this as well. Every time we invest in expanding the capacity of the network, be it in urban areas or on national routes, demand always ends up higher than the projections. Obviously, we have to base business cases on what modelling does. It is not quite, "If you build it, they will come", because there is a bit of mysticism about that but the fact is that strong infrastructure is always supported. There is no reason to think that the Athenry to Claremorris line would be any different in that regard.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In the Mayo county development plan there is talk about connecting, at enormous cost, for example, Shannon Airport, to the rail network. There is also the long mooted metro in Dublin which will cost billions of euro. It is a ten-minute bus ride from the terminal at Knock Airport to Charlestown station. Is it a policy of Mayo County Council to develop the Knock to Galway and Knock to Sligo rail links? This would provide sustainable travel connectivity to Knock airport in an affordable way. If one goes to Luton Airport, one has to get a bus. If one goes to Dublin Airport, one has to get a bus to get to one's car, never mind to get to a rail line. Does Mayo County Council consider that, whatever about Sligo, connectivity for Knock to Galway, Limerick and other places down the coast is important?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

Yes. There is a specific policy and the objective is to connect into Ireland West Airport Knock and its strategic development zone. There is very strong belief in Mayo about the potential of rail freight and a lot of work is being done on it. Many companies, including multinationals are expressing an interest. There is some reason to believe that it has great potential which can be exploited over the coming years.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the hubs around Ballina, Castlebar and Westport, would there be any reason to believe that going further north into Sligo would not add critical mass to rail freight in the region? If this was available, rail freight could be transported down the western corridor to Foynes Port. Is the thinking that Sligo would not add to the critical mass and it would not get the same demand as Mayo because of its distance from ports?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I can only assume that the interest shown by businesses in Mayo at present can be replicated in other locations. We are unique, but not that unique.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An interesting phenomenon happened in this House recently. Effectively, the NDP has been ripped up. There was an 8% growth in population up to the last census period, and a dramatic growth since the census was taken. The interesting thing is that the growth has not been confined to the cities but has occurred right across the country. The cities recorded only average growth. The county with the highest percentage growth was Longford, while Leitrim had the third highest. The growth is not happening, in the cities, as was predicted in all of these plans. It is actually happening across the country. Is it fair to say that most of the plans that have been developed will have to be redone?

If a new national planning framework, which is being revised currently, comes out, it will probably be found that the targets for growth were underestimated and population growth far exceeds what was expected. Thus, a lot more services, transport and movement of people will have to be provided to get to those services.

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

The expectation is that there will be a revision to the population figures at national level, which would be down, and will require a review of at least some of our plans if not all of our plans, at local level, to account for a higher population.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I can see by being a Dublin person by birth and upbringing but living in the west how the north west has lagged behind in terms of motorways, railways, etc. One of the things that is of major concern to me, as a Deputy representing Galway West, is that we see every day people coming to University Hospital Galway from counties Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim and all the way down the coast. For them, because the hospital is the centre of excellence for the west, travel is onerous and a lot of them would like to travel by rail where there is comfort. A rail travel option is denied them because to get the train to Galway, you have to take the train to Dublin and come back down again. Similarly, the University of Galway is the biggest university. There are other universities with the development of the technological universities but the University of Galway is by far the biggest university with the biggest number of choices. Again, what we are seeing is that an ever-increasing number of students want to be able to get home. Some students only spend five days in their lodgings, some students only do two days in their lodgings because they commute in various ways, and some students do long-term commutes. We live in a very uncertain world and in a world where plans can become redundant very fast. Again, it would have been wiser to hold the railway line because experience would tell us that when Iarnród Éireann opens the line up to Claremorris, it will far exceed expectation.

Does Mr. Kenny agree there will be a likelihood that some Government will say we have gone in for a penny, so let us go in for a pound and finish this whole section of line? It is one section of a line. Also, with possession being nine tenths of the law and if the land was handed over to a greenway, there would be a lot of arguments against the cost, disruption and all the rest if we then had to rip up the greenway and put in the railway line. I believe we should put greenways on a separate alignment, which might be a parallel alignment, and preserve rail lines. I ask because the realities of what we are planning for rail now would not have been dreamt of in the early part of Mr. Kenny's career, and certainly it certainly would not have been dreamt of in the early part of my career, which goes back a good bit further. Does Mr. Kenny agree it would be better and cheaper to develop the greenway but in a way that would not in any way prejudice a Government in the next five years going on from Claremorris to Collooney, which would link up Knock Airport and Sligo town as growth areas in the north west and stimulate the growth there further? Also, as climate action, etc., becomes more important, rail will become a key part of the delivery of climate targets.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

As I said earlier, we ultimately want to see the role of rail maximised throughout the country, including on that alignment. We have to work in the public policy environment we are presented with, which right now, again in draft form, would indicate reasonably long term that that is not happening. In any engagements we have with Sligo County Council or elsewhere where such matters are being decided, we would be very clear that if it is a route we want to go in the public policy context, then it is with that six-month licence clause of operations. It would be a matter for the local authority or other local authorities to decide to approach it on a parallel alignment or another alignment they wish. There is obviously a cost differential if that were the decision the local authority were to make for that project because the alignment there is a public one and a licence model. There are no land acquisition costs but we must work in the public policy context we are presented with. We recognise that context can change and I give the example of the south Wexford line, where local authorities, until relatively recently, worked on the assumption that its return was very unlikely and were examining with us options for a greenway. The great imperative now is that, since Rosslare port has grown so much, the potential for passenger and freight travel that exists there is now included in the all-island strategic rail review and is re-established as rail. Until shovels are in the ground, things can change, but you can only work in the public policy environment you are in right now. It is probably the implications and questions for those who propose greenways to decide whether it is worth going down that route.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Kenny know of a case, either in Ireland or abroad, where a greenway was created but ripped up to reinstall a rail line?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I do not believe here. I have probably enough to focus on here. I apologise that I have not studied what happened abroad regarding that question.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kenny has never heard of a case.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I have not personally, no.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for his indulgence. He is very kind.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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We have had a good discussion here. I cannot speak for all the people behind me but having listened to the contributions from everybody here, there is not one person who would disagree if the national rail review or any Government came forward with a proposal. However, we can only deal with the current Government as it is the only one we have. If the Government were to fund this line, as its policy, from Galway to Athenry, Claremorris, Charlestown, Sligo and right on to Enniskillen and wherever, if that were seen to be the plan and if we knew it would be funded in some sort of a reasonable timeframe, nobody would say we do not want that. I was chairperson of the Council for the West back in the late 1990s and I fully supported the western rail corridor. Today, Mr. Kenny has clearly articulated that, north of Claremorris, certainly up to 2050, it looks as if there will be no investment in the rail link. For now, we should consider creating a greenway. Earlier Deputy Ó Cuív said that possession is nine-tenths of the law. In this case, possession is retained. You simply grant a licence for a section to be used as a greenway and, in six months' time, you can have that back.

Senator Kyne spoke about two equally valid campaigns that are in competition. My immediate reaction is to ask why they are in competition and what is the purpose of that. Competition does not help anybody and there is no need for it in this instance. Deputy Kenny spoke about a solution. If it is the policy in Mayo that they want to build a greenway alongside the railway, then let them go ahead but we found a solution in both Sligo and Leitrim. We have reached the end of stage 2 of the Sligo greenway project and the Sligo, Leitrim, Northern Counties Railway, SLNCR, is progressing.

If, at any time, a Government comes forward with funding or policy to build the railway, Mr. Kenny has confirmed that within six months the land can revert to Iarnród Éireann and the rail link can be built. I do not see competition here. I see an interim or perhaps more long-term - none of us knows – solution to a piece of infrastructure that exists and can, in the meantime, provide positive benefits and outcomes. I do not need to go into those because we dealt with them in the previous hearing we had but they are benefits for tourism and people. A number of people I know, for example, already use some of the strips close to Manorhamilton as working routes. It is phenomenal. More and more people are using it. There is no competition. I wish that somehow this could be accepted. One does not negate the other. Mr. Kenny said it very clearly and we heard it many times. Iarnród Éireann retains ownership and it is simply unlicensed. Look at what is happening in Leitrim and Sligo and see the solution that has been found. There is no competition. The fact that greenways are going ahead will in no way stop any rail development if this Government or a future Government decides it will fund it and gives a timeline for doing it. I appeal to everybody involved in this to work together. One of the worst things, especially in a small region like the west, is that we do not work together and do not consider interim solutions if we are waiting for longer term solutions. Do the witnesses have any comments on that?

I have a question on rail freight. Mr. Kelly mentioned the increase in demand for rail freight in Mayo. Has Mayo County Council done an analysis of that in recent times? What companies is it looking at, aside from Coca-Cola? What analysis has been done on that?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

We have not done any particular analysis. We have had conversations with Iarnród Éireann and individual companies. We have not undertaken specific analysis but our understanding from our discussions with Irish Rail is that there is a growing demand.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

Baxter has taken space on some of the existing rail freight services from Ballina to Waterford. The company indicated to us that post the opening of Claremorris to Athenry and with Foynes line open, it sees a significant role for rail freight in operations. Much of the engagement with such companies is necessarily confidential, but there are quite a number of other companies. We have been engaging with the market and logistics companies. The sustainability of the movement of freight has been much more of an important factor for many companies now. I refer to developing rail hubs, the existing hubs we have, connection support and developing more inland hubs. There will be significant growth in the coming years for rail freight.