Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the meeting today is to consider the extreme delays recently experienced by passengers at Dublin Airport and the detailed plans and solutions of the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, to address this. I am pleased to welcome Mr. Dalton Philips, chief executive officer, CEO, of the DAA, who is accompanied by Mr. Gary McLean, deputy managing director, Dublin Airport; Ms Catherine Gubbins, group chief financial officer; Mr. Vincent Harrison, managing director, Dublin Airport; Mr. Maurice Hennessy, chief information and security operations officer; Ms Louise Bannon, head of marketing; Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon, head of ER-IR; and Mr. Kevin Cullinane, group head of communications. I thank Mr. Philips for agreeing to meet the committee on this important matter at such short notice. Obviously, we wait with great interest to hear the outline of his plans.

Transport falls within the remit of our committee, but this is really about the public today. The meeting is being screened live on RTÉNewsNow. What the public want at this stage is reassurance that if they turn up at Dublin Airport over the June bank holiday weekend they will be able to get their flight and they will not be in the airport for an inordinate amount of time, as well as future plans for dealing with this.

I must read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members that the Constitution requires them to be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not able to meet this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be reluctantly asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating using Microsoft Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution. Members attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Mr. Philips to make his opening statement.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting the DAA and members of my team to address the committee. To begin, I will take this opportunity to address our passengers directly and to apologise unreservedly to everyone who was impacted by the challenges at Dublin Airport last weekend. That experience jars with our tradition of providing a positive passenger experience for our passengers. While the past number of weeks have been challenging, I fully appreciate that what our passengers experienced at the airport last weekend fell extremely short of our desired standards. I appreciate the anger, frustration and upset that this has caused. Put simply, we failed in our duty to our passengers and I offer my deep apologies to everyone impacted and, indeed, to Members of the Oireachtas, as I also recognise the reputational damage to our country, for which connectivity and ease of access are our lifeblood.

I also assure passengers who were affected by last weekend’s queues that they will not be left out of pocket. These challenges were not of passengers’ making in any way, and we will work closely with everyone impacted to make sure that they are not impacted financially. If passengers were affected by last weekend’s events, I ask them to complete the online form on our website at dublinairport.com or email customerexperience@dublinairport.com and we will ensure speedy recompense.

I also take a moment at the outset of today’s meeting to acknowledge the incredible efforts of all DAA’s employees, during what has been a hugely challenging time. Our people, and the members of the committee know this, are fiercely proud of our organisation. Their commitment and their efforts have been outstanding, particularly over recent weeks and months.

However, I appreciate that apologies are not what people are most interested in today. The committee and the public will be very keen to understand, and the Chairman asked me about this, first, exactly how these challenges have arisen and, second, the immediate steps we are taking as a business to address them and to ensure that last Sunday’s events will not be repeated. There are three factors which have led to the current situation, which I have outlined in detail in my statement.

I would like to briefly state the following for the record. The unexpectedly rapid rise in passenger numbers affecting the global aviation industry, the significant challenges in recruitment, particularly in security screening as a result of the new European Union's enhanced background checks and the absence due to Covid-19 at the start of the year combined had a significant impact on the business and created very significant queues for our passengers on 27 March, following which we implemented a significant work programme to address these challenges. First, since recruitment began in 2021, we have now recruited more than 300 new airport search unit officers, with 150 officers recruited since the end of April 2022 alone. We will bring another 70 officers on board over the coming weeks. The Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, has set no upward limit on recruitment numbers. However, given the absolute criticality of security training, the process of on-boarding these new staff cannot be rushed. While we are making significant progress, it will take us another month before we get the full complement of additional trained security officers deployed on the floor of the airport. We have deployed a company-wide task force of office-based staff and senior management. This includes more than 400 people, who have now worked over 2,000 shifts and over 8,500 hours in support of our front-line team. All of my team here have done multiple 3 a.m. starts in the airport over the previous months.

We have also introduced overtime and incentives for our security staff, secured additional external queue management resources and introduced a very wide range of process improvements, passenger experiences and communications initiatives. I wrote to you, Chairman, as recently as last Friday on the positive progress we have been achieving across a whole range of key areas, which have led to an improved service level. Until last weekend, 94% of all departing passengers travelling through the airport had cleared security in 45 minutes or less during May, while almost 80% had cleared security in 30 minutes or less. However, the fact remains that we have been, and are still, managing a resource gap as we pivot from losses of nearly €1 million per day and 1,000 redundancies during the Covid-19 pandemic, to a dramatic recovery of air travel which has been faster and earlier than anyone could have predicted.

In parallel with our substantial recruitment and resourcing up process, set to deliver a further increase in processing capacity this month and next month, we have been operating to a plan, albeit one that is predicated on very fine margins, and the Herculean efforts of our staff. Reflecting on last weekend, Friday saw a similar number of passengers as Sunday pass through Dublin Airport, and travel on Friday was without incident and without undue delay. On Sunday, that plan failed. Let me explain why and also why I have confidence in our updated plan.

On Sunday last, we had rostered and resourced staff to meet the demands of serving 50,000 departing passengers across both terminals one and two, with 200 security officers and a further 24 team supervisors and co-ordinators on duty. This would have allowed us to open sufficient security lanes and X-ray machines to cater for the first wave of departing passengers. However, on that day, we were 37 officers down. Some 17 of these officers were new recruits who were on our rostering system and it was anticipated they would have completed training to allow them to work last Sunday but, in fact, they had not yet been certified. This anomaly in our processes has since been resolved. Some 17 recruits were not there but who should have been there. It was a process issue and we have since fixed that. We also incurred a loss of 20 officers that were absent from work on that day.

Many of those 37 staff have particular clearances and certifications required to open and operate a lane. They cannot be readily substituted by other DAA staff. Without this capacity, we were unable to bring in substitute staff at short notice in the early hours of Sunday morning. This compounded the queueing problem throughout much of Sunday. The impact of this reduction in our anticipated team meant that we were unable to open six security lanes, three in each terminal, which was a loss of 30% capacity in the first wave. Each lane ordinarily screens about 200 passengers per hour and being down six lanes, we had a processing deficit of 1,200 passengers an hour. We were unable to achieve our anticipated productivity and this quickly led to queues forming in security. As more and more passengers joined the growing queues for the available security lanes, the situation became compounded. This led to a decision at 10.30 a.m. to advise those passengers queueing outside the terminal with flights departing before noon that they would not make their flights.

This leads me to what will be a very different bank holiday weekend and into the extremely busy summer months of June, July and August ahead. We are focusing on passenger experience improvements across three core areas, while also introducing new escalation and triage mechanisms in the event of any unanticipated issues arising. We have submitted a detailed plan to the committee that is focused on a better passenger experience around a number of key areas: maximising the availability of staff resources, increasing the number of security lanes open at peak times and improving queue management. There is a detailed plan which hopefully at a later stage in this session, I will be able to take the committee through.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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You might give a quick outline for the public.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I will go to our passenger advice first as I think passengers are very keen to understand that. Our advice to passengers due to fly out of Dublin Airport over the coming period is to arrive at the airport at least two and a half hours before the departure of a short-haul flight to Europe and the UK, and at least three and a half hours for long-haul flights. At times, when the terminal gets particularly busy, be it this weekend or into the future, we will triage access to the terminals and only allow departing passengers into the departure level who have a flight departing within two and a half hours to short-haul destinations and three and a half hours to long-haul destinations. Passengers who arrive too early for their flights - that is, if we need to invoke the triage - will be asked to wait in a dedicated passenger holding area outside of the terminal, with special considerations being given those passengers who require special assistance and those important fliers with autism, etc. Access to the appropriate terminal for departing passengers will be controlled and will require the presentation of documentation indicating the time of flight, such as a booking confirmation or boarding card.

DAA will put in place bad weather-cover, seating and toilets in the holding area as quickly as possible in the coming days, following trials of this system over the June bank holiday weekend. We do not anticipate it will be needed this weekend but this is what we will be building for the summer, and we can go into more detail. Following these incremental measures, we are confident that we have a robust plan and we do not envisage a repeat of what occurred last Sunday.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can you give a summary of your plan in terms of extra staff, so that the public will know what is being put in place?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Although challenges remain, the measures we have taken will very substantially mitigate the risk of this weekend and beyond. Should unanticipated issues arise, we will have appropriate escalation and triage mechanisms focused on ensuring no passengers miss their flights.

I hope, Chairman, and members of the committee that the specific initiatives and actions DAA has been taking in recent weeks and months show that we have made a lot of progress. We had a very difficult Sunday and we let many of our passengers down. We have a plan around our staffing plan and for this weekend we will have 40 additional security officers working over the weekend. We will increase our staffing by 10% versus last weekend. There are a number of other details we could go into. We will have a very detailed security plan, which will increase our productivity by 10%.

It was a 10% increase. There are a number of details we could get into. We will have a very detailed security plan, which will increase our productivity by 10%. Last Friday and this coming Friday, for example, there are fairly similar numbers. We will have 10% more people in place and we will have 10% more productivity. We will have a number of activities in place to ensure that people can have confidence that they will make their flights. We have an operations and safety plan in place. Clearly, safety has to be the number one issue - getting people safely onto the flights. We will have a strong communication plan around the two and half hours and the three and a half hours. Challenges remain but we continue to operate a very tight operation with finite margin for error. A significant programme of work is ongoing by our dedicated people to bring the operation back to the standards our customers should be able to expect. We want all of our passengers to have a positive experience travelling into and out of Dublin Airport. As the summer season ramps up, we will continue to drive improvements in our overall service offering to this end.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Philips. I will now go to the members. The public are looking in, so we want to get answers from the DAA as to how this happened and how he is going to ensure the details of the plan will be put in place. I will give seven minutes. Members will have six minutes initially and then they will have a further minute. In the interests of getting the maximum use out of this particular session for members of the public who are looking in on the RTÉ News Now channel - we thank RTÉ for covering it - and extract the maximum information in order that members of the public who will be flying from Dublin Airport this weekend will have absolute clarity and assurance that they will get their flight and will not be waiting an inordinate amount of time, as well as about the facilities in general at the airport. The first speaker is Deputy O'Connor. He has six minutes. When the six minutes are concluded, I will allow a further minute. I want him to keep an eye on the clock.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, Chairman. First and foremost, I welcome the representatives of the DAA before the committee today. What happened over the course of the weekend is profoundly regrettable and has done remarkable damage to the organisation and to the State. It is important that this committee would ask a number of key questions regarding the operational failures at Dublin Airport over the weekend.

In 2021, the DAA received approximately €97.2 million in direct Exchequer supports, in particular in Dublin, for the operational parts of the airport. Was any of the funding used for the retention of staff at the airport? If not, why was it not used for the retention of security staff?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The €97 million was from the Government explicitly for the airlines to incentivise them to operate schedules this summer. The Deputy will remember that no commentator believed that traffic would come back to pre-Covid levels until 2024 or 2025. Out of concern for that and all that needed to be done to incentivise traffic in and out of the country, the Government put in €97 million. We did not receive a single penny of that. It went to the airlines in terms of reduced airport charges.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What supports were provided by the Government for the retention of staff and to keep the DAA going as an organisation? Mr. Philips outlined in his opening statement that the DAA was losing approximately €1 million each day. What was the DAA in receipt of when it came to those types of financial supports?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We were in receipt of the supports that any other business in the country would have received. We get no special supports whatsoever. We are a fully commercial organisation. We have to access debt markets to raise capital and we received no extra support. We did avail of the temporary Covid-19 wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, and there were some rate waivers in place, but they were the same for any company right across the country. We did not get any specific supports directly to the DAA because of our unique situation.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously the DAA was in receipt of the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. Why was it not used to retain security staff?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

To give a little bit of context around our financial profile, just before Covid-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is not the question I asked. I am sorry, but I have really limited time. Why was the EWSS the DAA got, like so many other businesses, not used to retain critical staff, in particular the staff members in question, who take a significant amount of time to get trained for their positions?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We were losing €1 million every single day. Our net debt doubled. We had to reduce costs. We did not know how long the pandemic would go on for. We certainly did not think it would recover in 2022 to the extent it has. As it said, the estimates were that it would be 2024 or 2025. We reduced our overall staffing level by 25%, with a voluntary severance scheme across the business. That got us down to about 70% of what we needed. We felt that going into 2022, with 70% of our staffing, we would be okay, and we were wrong.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Philips communicate those points to the Minister for Transport and the Minister of State with responsibility for aviation? Did he tell them what potentially could happen, which effectively has happened? My understanding is that approximately 50,000 people travelled through the airport at the weekend, in particular on Sunday, but we could go up to as much as 100,000 people per day in the coming weeks. Did Mr. Philips communicate the potential ramifications of these staff being let go to the Minister and the Department?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We had to let people go. We thought we would not be at

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I asked Mr. Philips a specific question. He will appreciate that we have limited time. Were those particular points communicated to the Department of Transport, the Minister and the relevant officials in the Department about what potentially could happen?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We would have explained that there was a risk to downsizing but that was a risk we took. It was not that-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is important for everybody's professional reputation that this particular point is expanded upon. I am genuinely trying to give all the witnesses the benefit of the doubt. I am being fair. Was that communicated? I will take that as a "Yes".

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes, I am just trying to put some colour on it. When we were downsizing, we took all the data of the industry analysts and we worked through those to try to predict what the traffic levels would be for 2022, 2023 and 2024, and we reduced our overall cost base to meet that. We were wildly wrong in terms of the recovery levels that happened once the travelling public started travelling from March onwards. As the Deputy is aware, January and February were very concerning months. We had Ukraine and Omicron. From March, it took off at a level we had not expected and therefore we were behind where we needed to be in terms of our recruitment.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Let us talk about the projections for a moment. That is interesting. We were told in this committee repeatedly that it would be approximately 2025 before we returned to 2019 levels. Based on today's figures, how quickly does Mr. Philips feel the airport will get back to going north of 30 million passengers a year?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We will be north of 30 million next year, and if we are to take a run rate from the middle of this summer and project it 12 months-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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So we are going to arrive at that position two years early.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

That is correct.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is the infrastructure, in particular in terminal 1 in Dublin Airport, capable of handling those numbers again, or is it all down to staffing?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The infrastructure is able to manage that level of throughput. We were at 33 million passengers pre-pandemic, and we will be at 30 plus million next year. At the moment, the limiting resource we have is security screeners. Neither Deputy O'Connor nor I can do that as you need to be certified; it is a skilled role. We need to dramatically increase the amount of screeners we have in our business. At the moment, we do not have enough.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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This is my final question to Mr. Philips, as my time is very limited. He knows what is coming down the tracks. We are going to reach a position in a few weeks' time that will be remarkably difficult for Dublin Airport to handle. Would he not look at relocating routes as a temporary measure to the key regional airports, that is, to Cork, which his organisation manages, and to Shannon, to get over the situation we are in? Some 1,000 people missed their flight. If this gets any worse, the number could be much more significant than that. Would Mr. Philips not look at that potential emergency action and work with the other airports to redirect some flights on a temporary basis to get the DAA over the position it currently finds itself in?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The airlines make the choice about where they fly their aircraft, the airport does not.

We provide the infrastructure. We do not dictate where an airline flies to; that is what an airline does.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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At this point in time, the DAA cannot handle the amount of traffic that is coming through the airports. That is hugely concerning. That is food for thought, Chairman. We need to try to come up with a plan in that regard.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Our main focus today is the hundreds of thousands of passengers per day coming to Dublin Airport and the worries they have. I will take national aviation policy, which is as important, on another day but today our key focus is on people coming to the terminals. Deputy Duncan Smith has six minutes and I will give him one extra minute.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Where exactly will these holding areas that have been announced as part of the DAA's plans be in relation to the terminal buildings?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We would be using some of the outside queuing areas we have now and which are in place. We would also use some of our short-term car parks in both terminals 1 and 2 that are adjacent, covered and can provide a safe infrastructure in the event that we need to triage. We do not expect to have this in place this weekend. As the numbers build over the summer, however, we want to have the contingency that should we be faced with a situation, it is much more orderly and better managed than last Sunday.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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This weekend, therefore, the advice is that people with luggage should arrive for short-haul flights three and a half hours in advance and four and a half hours in advance for long-haul flights.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

That is if a person has luggage.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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That is the advice. Therefore, people arrive for a long-haul flight three and a half hours in advance, does Mr. Philips envisage that they will have to be outside for a period of time or will they be able to go directly into the terminal building?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Our plan for this weekend is that people will not have to be outside for any length of time. This morning at 4 a.m., we had some people outside for approximately ten minutes. We do not anticipate it but we want to be prepared for it. What I would say is that 94% of all people were getting through security in under 45 minutes through the main terminal. It is not where we should be.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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We did not think we would be here after the DAA's letter last week but we are here after the weekend and now we have a plan to have gazebo holding areas or covered holding terminals for the summer.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

In the event-----

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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They will be set up for the summer but not for this weekend in the event that we have these issues again as the passenger numbers increase.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

As the traffic increases.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Does the DAA have a plan to ensure food and beverage concessions are open both landside and airside in every terminal and at every gate to ensure that people are able to get refreshments and stuff they need? That has been a key problem. Is there a plan to ensure that the sanitary facilities in terms of toilets and such are clean as well? These are other key problems that existed this weekend.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have been working with our food and beverage partners. As the Deputy will know, many pubs up and down the country are closed a couple of days per week because they cannot get staff. It is the same for restaurants and it is no different in the food and beverage sector within the airports. We have been gradually bringing on as many food and beverage outlets as possible to ensure we can give the customer service our passengers want. However, the reality over the last few months is that we have not be able to open them all. As the Deputy knows, we do not actually operate them-----

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I understand that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

-----but we work with our partners. What we will do is try to make sure there is something available in all the key piers but there may not be the full variety passengers would expect. It gets better and better but it is a very difficult recruitment market out there for all parts of the ecosystem.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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It is part of the overall experience if a person is four, four and a half or five hours from when he or she gets out of his or her car, bus or whatever to get to his or her gate and he or she has not had a cup of tea or been able to use a toilet facility. That is a huge problem.

We know the Government did not provide any conditionality in terms of retaining employees. The DAA is losing €1 million per day. Did the Government ever say to the DAA that it would get support as part of the employee wage subsidy scheme, EWSS? The DAA is a distinct case; it is not like other companies. This is a strategic State agency. Did the Government ever say the DAA is getting this support and that it actually needs the DAA to cut costs? Did the Government either through Ministers or senior officials in the Department of Transport ever say the DAA is getting all this money from it and that it actually needs to see the DAA cut costs?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Is the money to which Deputy Smith refers the incentive for the airlines?

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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No, it is the EWSS.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are like any other business.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The DAA is not really.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

How we run it is like any other business.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Okay. So, that never came from Government. Every decision that was made with regard to staff sizing, downsizing or rightsizing, to use Mr. Philips's language, was made by Mr. Philips and his colleagues on the management team.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are on our own here.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Does Mr. Philips think the DAA pulled the lever too early in May 2020 for the packages being offered to reduce staff in terms of going into the pandemic crisis?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Did we cut too-----

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Does Mr. Philips think the DAA pulled the lever to cut as many staff as early as it did into the crisis?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Did I make it too early?

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Yes.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No, I did not. We were losing €1 million. We lost €284 million in 2020.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Was it too deep on the security checkers?

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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It was too deep, too quickly. This is the point I am getting at. Was the pandemic the moment the DAA was waiting for to make the cuts it always wanted to make?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No, absolutely and categorically not. We were growing as we were going into 2020.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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There has always been a tension in the airport that there has always been a desire for management to cut long-term employees who are on good pay and good terms and conditions across many areas. That was the sense and this is what I have been picking up. Staff in large numbers contacted me over the weekend who are afraid to speak on the record. These staff, who are still there, were clarifying that their discussions with me would not go anywhere. The culture is such that they have this fear. It is incredible. I felt like a Cold War spymaster trying to talk to people.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I firmly refute that. I think Deputy Smith has a good understanding of our airport and I think he knows the people. I do not dispute that people may have said that to him but we have staff engagement in the work we are doing with our staff and the work I do personally as a CEO in terms of being actively on the floor. All these people who are with me today, one day per month prior to the pandemic, would have done a front-line shift, be it cleaning, customer service, security or whatever to be upfront with our colleagues and listen, learn and develop. Do we have everything right? We absolutely do not.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I will finish on this point. I thought I had a good understanding of the staff culture. This weekend has shifted it. I know it is a crisis weekend but we have a staff body who feel very low and very battered and bruised. This is my final question. There is no upward ask in terms of the number of security staff the DAA wants to hire. Is the DAA going to go higher now in terms of security staff based on its projections thus far?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We currently have 535 security staff in what we call central processing, that is, terminals 1 and 2. We are going to take that number from 535 to 702 members by the end of June. That is a gap of 167. We will increase it to 702 and then we will try to go again to 800 through the summer. Of that gap of 167, therefore, we have 104 in training and 63 who are in a pipeline.

The reality is that it is slow to get people in, however. We want to get people on the flights. There is a reason why the staff are feeling like that. I have had an opportunity to work in a number of different companies. I have never worked in a company where there is such pride, which I think the Deputy knows as well as I do, felt by the front-line officers right across the board. There is incredible pride. That is why they feel down, and we feel that we have let them down. We let them down this weekend with the rostering error that occurred.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have a very quick final question. The security checkers who were let go under a voluntary redundancy package numbered 248. Does Mr. Philips now accept that was too grave of a cut?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes, I do.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will now move to Deputy O'Rourke, who has six minutes and one additional minute.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is the point. The DAA cut too deep and it is struggling to recruit quickly enough to keep up with demand. Mr. Philips said there is a resource gap. What level of search unit staff does the DAA ideally need to cope with the demand that is there at the minute? What is the gap? Obviously, the DAA is aiming for 702 by the end of the month. What would it be content with at this point?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are 60 security officers behind where we need to be.

You run on fine margins. If the Deputy does not mind me challenging back, I would mention hindsight. The Deputy says we cut too deep but nobody could have expected this rebound.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back to that argument. The DAA is 60 staff short.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We were for last weekend.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What will it be short for this weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Because of everything we have done and the challenges, we are going to-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is where I am getting to. The DAA does not have enough suitably qualified staff to match the demand, and that is a pressure point. Mr. Philips says the DAA is running on a finite margin of error. He said that last weekend the DAA was unable to substitute at short notice. If the same scenario arises this weekend and the DAA has a little more of a buffer with its 10%, what will be different?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are running on very fine margins. The Deputy knows that across Europe, airports-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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My question is what will be different this weekend compared with last weekend. Mr. Philips mentioned appropriate escalation. What does that look like? Does the DAA have an additional reserve? Has it asked staff to do-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We will have 40 more officers this weekend. We have brought officers up from Cork, which we are grateful for. We have an extensive overtime package in place, which is triple time. We are releasing all available security staff from other activities they might have been doing across the airport and we will be consolidating some of our gate posters. Those are some of our outside gate posts where some of the cargo and other equipment comes into the airport. We will be doing a consolidation period to make sure we have 10% more lane processing. We have our task force of 450 people who do not work in front-line roles who are all doing activities. I worked Monday last week at 3 a.m., and I will work Friday and Saturday to get in there and help. Those are the sort of contingencies we are putting in place.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How many staff are coming from Cork? There is a suggestion that there are other personnel that the DAA could draw on such as the Defence Forces and the Civil Defence. Is there any other pool of people that the DAA is looking for? I will make the following point on Cork Airport, and I have made it in respect of other airports. There is a challenge to find suitably qualified people who have suitable clearance and expertise. If the DAA is leaning on other airports in its hour of need, that favour must be returned in the future. If Government has a role in that, such as in the upcoming national policy, it needs to make due note of that. Are there additional resources that could be drawn upon?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

An Garda Síochána has been fantastic. I cannot speak more highly of the work it has done. The local team at Dublin Airport has been exceptional, and Drew Harris has gotten right behind it. Next is Cork Airport. We have somewhere between three and six officers coming up and helping us from there. The Deputy might think three is not a lot but what we need is X-ray certified officers. That is our key bottleneck and having those officers up, even though it is only three to six of them, depending on the day, makes a material difference. We have also gone out to other airports, both regionally in Ireland and internationally. I have put this out to the EU to try to get security officers over here. We need to recertify them but that can be done quickly. The problem is that all the other airports are scrambling for these workers. When I went out to the regional airports, they all wanted to help but they had nobody to give. Shannon Airport and its CEO, Mary Considine, have been terrific. Ms Considine wants to help in any way she can but she cannot free up any security officers as she needs them all. That is the issue we have.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What about rehiring staff who were let go? There is an issue with Garda clearance and training. What is the quickest possible way the DAA can provide additional resources?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Rehiring staff who left is potentially an option. We have had 5,000 applications for the jobs we have in place, and they are people who have chosen to come in to us. There were people who left voluntarily so our preference is for our current pipeline.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I want to make a point on the underestimation on the return. Mr. Philips pointed to international indicators - we have heard others point to that at the committee - but is it not the case that the DAA has failed to read the Irish market? Is it not the case that the DAA has failed to read the Ryanair factor? Is that not what has happened here? Ryanair, one of the most successful and aggressive airlines on the planet, has come back stronger than airlines anywhere else. Ryanair said that it predicted a rapid rebound in airline travel on 31 August 2021, which was reported by BBC News. Did the DAA not miss that?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The Deputy will remember that it went up and down. Then we got into December, when it got concerning with the Omicron variant. In January, and then Ukraine-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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In January, Ryanair said it foresaw a strong summer if there was no Covid.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I would say that the Government, which has access to some of the best research anywhere in the world, was putting down a significant and material amount of money to incentivise airlines to fly because there was a real concern that they would not do so. We had a budget that we looked at when we went into Christmas 2021, which was to be at 75%. When I talked to other airport CEOs across Europe, they said that was a pretty aggressive budget we had.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What is terminal 2 at percentage wise?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

They are both knocking around 90%. Terminal 1 is at 95% and terminal 2 is at 85%; it depends on the day. I sit on a council with the CEOs of all the other airports. When I talked to them, they said that 75% of our budget was chunky. In February, as oil prices spiked, Ukraine kicked off and the cost of living was going through the roof, we were looking into the summer and we were deeply concerned. We should not have got rid of that number of people. If I knew then what I know now, I would have made a different decision.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Philips and his team. It is good to hear him make that admission in his last comment because that is where the problem lies. I want to ask about passengers with reduced mobility in particular and how they will fit into the DAA's plan. I have feedback from people who were stopped at the weekend and I know the weekend was chaotic. Mr. Philips and his team did not want that and none of us want to see that again. We just want people to avail of a State service and to do so in a comfortable and appropriate manner. People were stopped coming up the ramp. It caused great distress having to walk and queue, which affected many people. Can the DAA be sure that the information given is very clear? Where will people with reduced mobility be able to access the airport? Will they be able to drive right up and be dropped at the door? Will they have to queue or make extra arrangements? The DAA has brought in new staff and will be bringing in more. The figures Mr. Philips mentioned were a 10% increase in staff and 40 new security people and I ask that they be briefed fully. It is very difficult when you get new staff in. When staff have been there for a long time they know the ropes and they know what to do but new staff can be overenthusiastic and the DAA needs to be careful of that. I ask the DAA to be sure that information goes to those passengers who have booked for assistance on where the meeting points will be and that information must be clear. That has to be a priority.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I have probably been speaking too much so I will share this with some of my team. I will ask Ms Bannon to talk about this matter. It is an issue she has been significantly focusing on because people with reduced mobility-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If witnesses are to come in, I am conscious of time. Members have seven minutes in total so I want questions and answers to be direct so the public get the information.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are committed to providing a good journey for people with reduced mobility. It is something we were good at before.

Deputy Smith talked about food and beverages. Many of the services we offer at the airport are being challenged at present. This is an area on which we must focus, particularly with so many people in the terminals. It is a matter about which passengers are very concerned. Ms Bannon might share further with the Deputy on that.

Ms Louise Bannon:

Unfortunately, congested terminals and what is going on at the moment have a disproportionately negative impact on people with mobility challenges, neurodiversity or whatever the case may be. While we cannot do too much to reduce volumes, etc., we can focus on awareness, empathy, training and information. That is where we need to redouble our efforts with OCS, our partner, but also with all our staff on the ground to make sure they are highly aware and behave in a very emphatic way. That is what we need to focus on over the next couple of weeks in particular. That is all I wanted to say.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I reiterate that it is important to make sure that information is clearly available to people. They do not want to arrive into situation whereby a whole new arrangement they have not been used to has been set up.

On the numbers entering the building and that are on-site and in the back-up holding areas, if more people are going to have to arrive earlier for their flights and if there are going be even more numbers on-site for a longer period, is the DAA at all times staying within building capacity requirements, fire capacity requirements and security requirements in the context of the outer holding areas, temporary decanting areas or whatever one might call them?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I will ask Mr. McLean, our deputy managing director for Dublin, to respond to that. Obviously, the safety of our staff and passengers on their security is number one and paramount in everything we do and it is first and foremost on our board’s list of anything it discusses with us. It is critical. We have a very good record on that. Mr. McLean might update the Deputy.

Mr. Gary McLean:

The safety of our passengers is our number one priority throughout that whole journey. The reason we have had access control into the building for short periods in recent weeks was to ensure the safety of our passengers. We work very closely with Dublin Fire Brigade. It was on-site this week with us in order to ensure that all the processes and procedures we have in place are used to manage the process safely and within the parameters of the building controls within which we are obliged to operate. That applies to all our plans and all those holding points. We do not intend to be in car park holdings. If we are, however, that will be done within the parameters of the building controls and in a safe and effective manner. That is the whole purpose of those controls.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I do not doubt passenger safety and comfort is the DAA's priority, as it is for every industry that provides a service. I am interested in the fact that more people are arriving and waiting at holding points for longer. The DAA is managing the situation safely and to the best of its ability as it unfolds. However, this is a planned procedure now. Taking account of the numbers and those extra places, will the DAA be staying within building capacity requirements, security requirements and fire regulation requirements in respect of people in the building and within airport's curtilage?

Mr. Gary McLean:

Absolutely. At all times.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. McLean and Mr. Philips.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to Deputy Cathal Crowe, who will have six minutes and one further minute.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Philips and his team for coming here today. I read his statement. It is a frustrating and a sad irony that an entity which is all about moving people has been a in state of paralysis quite a number of times. I was one of the members who was here at the end of March or early April when we were given reassurances and provided with timeframes within which the DAA would have this matter rectified. That has not come to pass. Just last week we received reassuring emails that everything would be fine. There is a saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Members of the public interface with the airport and will be travelling through it today. I travelled beside one of those passengers this morning on the train to Dublin. That person had left hours upon hours in advance of her flight because she was petrified she would miss it. Those travelling are people going on holidays or going back to UK for family funerals. The DAA's public relations people were on the airwaves this week stating that it will compensate people. When asked about the level of compensation, however, their responses were totally vague. I do not think anything appropriately compensates people for this. I would like Mr. Philips to address that issue.

I do not know if the witnesses can see what I am holding up, but it is an image of the departure gate in Shannon. It has a lovely graphic arch asking people to please queue here. There is no queue, however. In Shannon, can drop one's bag off and seven minutes later be having a cup of coffee and waiting to board one's flight. The solution to Mr. Philip's problem lies in airports like Shannon and the other State airports. He said it is up to the airlines to choose but has he, as the supreme chief in Dublin Airport, said to them that we may not be able to get their passengers on a flight this weekend and that he would advise them to try Shannon, Cork or Knock airports. Has he communicated that to them?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

There are two points regarding compensation. We want to react very quickly and speedily in the context of any compensation people may require. We are deeply sorry.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If a passenger had booked a hotel in Spain, is the DAA covering the cost of that?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We want to be very open to it. We want to act-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I know Mr Philips wants to be very open to it, but I want him to tell people if the DAA will cover the cost of a hotel in Spain or wherever at the other end of the journey?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes, if they do not have insurance and if it is our fault. Absolutely. We messed up. We do not want to be quibbling about that at all.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Philips spoken to Shannon Airport in order that he can get passengers through. I think it is preferential to travel down the motorway to Shannon than to spend three and half hours queueing. Some people, as Mr. Philips said, are waiting outdoors at Dublin Airport at 4 a.m.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are in constant liaison with the airlines. The airlines, as the Deputy will know, choose where they want to fly based on where the passenger demand is. Clearly, there are flights from Cork and Shannon to various places across Europe. We work with the airlines and they choose where they want to deploy their aircraft.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Philips suggested to them that his airport cannot fulfil their needs on certain days and that they should try elsewhere?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We let the public down in May.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have very little time remaining. Has Mr. Philips suggested that to them?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Some 94% of people went through the airport in May less than 45 minutes. It is not where we want to be.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are running down the clock. Has Mr. Philips suggested to people that his airport cannot fulfil their needs and they should reschedule their flights or move to Shannon, Cork or Knock?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Mr. Harrison has been working specifically on this. I will ask him to share what is happening with the Deputy.

Mr. Vincent Harrison:

In summary, yes, we have engaged with the airlines. We have obviously run a variety of scenarios as we look forward to determine the future demand and future capacity. As part of that scenario planning, we have actively discussed with the airlines whether they have the capability and desire to shift capacity to other airports should the need arise. When I say that, they obviously have the prerogative to move capacity at any point and we have had open engagement with the airlines. There are a range of logistical challenges in that regard, not least crew and resources on the airline side, but we have been open and explicit in our discussion with the airlines on that.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The authority's updated advice seems to be incongruent with what airlines are offering. The current advice to passengers is to arrive two and half hours before their flights are due to depart and to allow an additional hour on top of that for a bag drop. Yet KLM and Air France advise their passengers to arrive two hours before the flight. People are in a state of flux. They are looking at airline advice and at the DAA’s advice and they do not know when to arrive. How chaotic does Mr. Philips envisage things being when the new runway opens?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I will deal with the question in respect of the runway and I will hand over to Ms Bannon to deal with the passenger advice. The new runway has been in the plans for 40-plus years, as the Deputy will know. It will be opening in August of this year. Long term it will be a very keen significant asset.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Philips be deferring that opening in light of the current chaos or will it be full steam ahead?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have a plan to resource up by the end of June, which I have highlighted. It will be a very busy summer. Until we fully resource that, we ask the public to work with us. However, we would expect that to be in a totally different place from July and August onwards.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Philips will open the runway in August. He will fulfil that plan.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We absolutely will. Ms Bannon will share the details on the passenger advice.

Ms Louise Bannon:

The Deputy is right in what he said. We have a complex situation at the airport in that if a passenger has a bag to check in, not all airlines open their bag drop desks at the same time . As a result, we have a range of two hours in advance to four hours in advance, and that is just in terminal 1. Our advice to passengers is they should arrive two and half hours in advance of their flight if they can.

We also advise that if one is checking in a bag then allow additional time. People need to check with their airline about when its desks open. Some airlines offer nigh-before check-in and we encourage people who can to avail of that option. It is a complex message. The two and half hours works for the majority.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That messaging is something that the DAA needs to correct.

Ms Louise Bannon:

Yes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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A family in County Clare contacted me this morning. They were experiencing a problem but they were also part of the problem because five of them were sitting there on suitcases waiting for a desk to open, and that is totally incongruent with what has been said.

Finally, I wish to refer to the 40 additional people because the situation is not clear from the opening statement and what has been said here today. On all shifts throughout the weekend will we see an extra 40 people or is that a total of 40 people who will be dispersed intermittently to various shifts? I hope my question makes sense.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

That is 40 incremental people whom we did not have last week spread out over the whole weekend. In addition to those 40 people our existing resources are doing additional overtime. Over the course of the weekend we will have approximately 60 full-time equivalents or heads that we did not have last weekend. They will be directed at peak hours. Between overtime, incremental and additional heads then they are the numbers we are looking at for this weekend.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I assume that the DAA complies with working law regulations. At some times there may only be eight or ten people because of breaks and rosters. It is important that it is minuted here that it not really a true gain of 40 people.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

One must focus on the 10% number. We have got 10% more processing power this weekend because of resources and that is how we think about it.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There are a couple of hundred politicians but the witnesses only see seven of us now and the same worry would apply in the context of an airport. The DAA has told us that there is 40 extra people but they will not be there at peak times.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is 10% more. So we will over ten lanes open in each terminal at key points, which is a 10% improvement on what we had last weekend.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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A 10% improvement suggests that perhaps only 900 people may miss their flights. Is that what Mr. Philips is saying?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No, it is not. A 10% improvement is very significant. How it works is one needs to get the processing going early on, as the Deputy will know from any environment.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a 10% improvement on 1,000 people losing flights?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

If one does not get up and running fast in the morning then it is very hard to catch up. So the 10% is actually targeted more in the morning.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many additional lanes? How many lanes were open in T1 and T2 last weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

So we will have 30% more lanes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No, give me the number.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

So we will have ten versus six lanes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So six lanes were open out of how many? Is it 15?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

There should have been ten.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many lanes are in T1?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

T1 can go to 12 lanes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have been told that there are 15 lanes in T1.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We operate 12 lanes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many lanes are there? Are there 15 lanes? The answer is black and white.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We operate off 12 and we have a training lane. We would like to have all lanes open.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are there only six lanes operated in T2?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

On Sunday, the results have been 37 officers down from where-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No, just give us the numbers.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

For a period of time it was six lanes versus-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So half of the lanes if one has 12 lanes. Will the number increase to ten lanes in both T1 and T2 this coming weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

At peak periods it will be ten. It may go over that at certain points because it really depends on how we manage it. Our ambition is to open even more lanes in time. We want to have as many lanes as we had pre pandemic when people went through in 20 minutes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I shall let members take up this matter.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If one achieves a 10% improvement. Around 1,000 people lost their flights last weekend. If we run the 10% figure through the whole operation does it mean that between 800 and 900 people coming into the weekend hours will miss their flights?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Absolutely not. We had a very strong flight-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Philips believe that no-one will miss a flight this coming weekend, given the plan that the DAA has put to Government?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I am confident.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Philips guarantee that?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I am confident.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No. Can Mr. Philips guarantee that no-one will miss a flight over the weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I am going to say the following again. If passengers will heed the two and half hours rule then I am confident about our plans. We are in a very difficult situation. We are dealing in fine margins. We want people to safely make their flights. The experience at the moment is not what we would like it to be. We would like it to be much better.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will cut to the chase. Is Mr. Phillips telling people who will travel both short-haul and long-haul, that if they arrive two and half hours before, and if they have baggage to add an extra hour, and if the flight is long-haul then the time is three and half hours so an extra hour and guarantee, that they will get their flights over the weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I am giving them a high level of confidence.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why not a guarantee?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Because there is a whole range of factors.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Philips is in this business and a guarantee should be forthcoming.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not see how a 10% intervention can achieve a 100% improvement.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Mr. Hennessy may want to give some further colour. The 17 people were in our training programme.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We had a manual process failure. We had what one would call a hand-off failure and we made a mistake but we have corrected the anomaly. We have a training team that was working on one system-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It should not have happened.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It should not have happened.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How did it happen?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Mr. Hennessy wants to come in. I would say, and this goes back to Deputy Duncan Smith's comments earlier, we have a very committed workforce who work incredible shifts.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

There is the security leadership team. All of them are doing multiple 3 a.m. shifts and then do a day job. Nobody is trying to do anything wrong.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I was very concerned.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We were very concerned. Does Mr. Hennessy wish to add anything?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

I sincerely apologise. We made a mistake and we hold our hands up to that. We did make a mistake on that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I fully empathise with what the Senator has said. We have had 151 days this year and we have had two really difficult days when we really let customers down with real challenges. For 149 days we have done a solid job.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I will bring Mr. McLean in on that question but, as the committee will know from its discussion with the Irish Aviation Authority, there is no margin for error in security. People who do this skilled job are certified. We cannot just get somebody else if a person does not turn up. In terms of the queue management-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Perhaps Mr. McLean would like to share with the Senator.

Mr. Gary McLean:

Our focus is 100% on safety and on ensuring business continuity plans for all eventualities. We have a business continuity plan for the event that happened. On the day, queues built up outside the terminal and we used that business continuity plan to control access to the building to ensure the safety of passengers. Queues developed an awful lot more quickly than we had anticipated as a result of the reduced processing capacity. The plans we will implement if this happens again require areas of the car park to be-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why does Shannon Airport have these C3 scanners when the DAA does not?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The airlines have the ultimate moveable asset. We do not have the airlines by anything. It is quite the opposite. They have all the power in the relationship because they can move their assets wherever they want.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have a very clear plan with regard to security.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

May I come in on the Senator's comments about security? I agree with him. Our passenger experience, particularly with regard to the security area in terminal 1, could be much better.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Terminal 2 is probably better than terminal 1.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

All of our security equipment is in full compliance with the regulations. We do take our security equipment-----

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Can I finish?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has a limited amount of time. Will the witnesses deal with his question?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The new equipment is coming. There are real advances, such as the C3 system that has been installed at Shannon. That is something we are very focused on. A small number of large airports are starting to operate these systems. We see a big opportunity to do the same.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We have invested significantly in our whole baggage system, which passengers do not see as it is the depths of the airport. That has been our priority over recent years. We are now moving onto our central search.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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From all of the discussion and debate that has taken place, it seems the nub of the issue is that the DAA does not have enough staff to cater for the number of people who are going through the airport. The DAA dismissed hundreds of experienced staff. There is no doubt, as has been conceded, that this was done too quickly and that the DAA cut too deep. What process did it engage in before making that decision? It possibly started with the managing director looking at the issue. I am sure the decision went through the DAA's financial unit. It will have gone through at the executive level and through the board. Am I correct in saying that there are four worker directors on the board?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

That is correct.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am amazed that a plan like this, which had such implications for the airport and its staff, got through. Was Government informed of this? At that stage, the DAA was like any other company, as the witnesses have said. I presume it was drawing down a wage subsidy for some of its workers. How much money did the company generate through wage subsidy schemes? I have a business but I did not engage with the wage subsidy scheme. I knew for certain that if I did not keep my staff during the Covid pandemic, I would have no business when it was over. I cannot understand how all of the intelligent people in the DAA did not understand that with all of the advice they had and the communications they had with the Department of Transport. That Department is a huge unit within our public service. We have two Ministers, who have busloads of advisers. I cannot understand how nobody picked up on the implications of the decision the DAA made to dismiss so many people so quickly. I find it difficult to understand how the DAA did not anticipate that this was going to be a problem.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I may bring Ms Gubbins in on this. There were no material analysts reporting that 2022 would be where it was going to be. There were none of any credibility in Ireland or in Europe. Not one of S&P, Fitch, Airports Council International or the International Air Transport Association saw this. They all saw reaching this level in 2024. We took the best advice we could. The Government was fuelling in €90 million by way of incentives. We acted with the best information we had. Nobody saw this coming. That is why there are restaurants, hotels and bars up and down this country that are not open.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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My point is that Mr. Philips mentioned that the DAA is like any other business, but it is not. It is a strategically important part of corporate Ireland. The DAA was losing all of this money while, at the same time, drawing down the wage subsidy scheme from the national Exchequer. I cannot understand why somebody did not go to Government and tell it what the likely result and implication of this decision would be.

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

I might just address those-----

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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There are many people here who could probably take some of the blame but there are a lot more out there, including Government Ministers and advisers, who should have seen this coming down the line. As somebody who has some clue about business, I know that the cost of what the DAA has done will outweigh what it has saved because it is now paying treble time and compensation. The exercise it is now involved in is very expensive and nobody can put a price on the reputational damage done to both the DAA and the country in general. If you picked up The New York Timeslast weekend, you would have seen the international publicity the events at Dublin Airport got. Nobody could buy that kind of bad publicity. The point I am making is that this decision was badly thought out from the start. While I accept that the witnesses are totally genuine and are saying what they are saying in good faith, I really do not believe the answers we have got today will address the problem.

I will not ask for a guarantee because it is impossible to give one. However, on the basis of everything that has been said, there seems an inevitability of further delays at Dublin Airport.

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

May I address some of those points? The Deputy is absolutely right that the DAA is a critical piece of State infrastructure. We are a semi-State body but we are also a commercial entity. We are required to fund ourselves from our profits. We also fund ourselves through accessing debt in the capital markets and historically from the European Investment Bank. We have a credit rating and need to protect our financial profile so we can continue to access capital markets on a go-forward basis.

When this crisis hit, it became evident that the aviation industry was one of the most significantly impacted industries. As the months and weeks passed, it also became clear that this crisis was going to impact us for a significant amount of time. Mr. Philips has on a number of occasions referenced the fact that all the industry analysts throughout the course of the two years that the pandemic impacted us suggested we would not be back at 35 million passengers until 2024 and 2025. To be clear, we had a payroll cost at the end of 2019 of €20 million per month, with 3,000 domestic staff to service 35 million passengers. The employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, supports were approximately €4 million of that. Our staff took pay cuts which amounted to approximately €2 million or €3 million per month. We were able to remediate our €20 million per month payroll costs by reducing them to approximately €9 million per month. We absolutely needed to do that or we would have been losing €1 million per day for those two years. That would have categorically damaged our financial profile for the next number of years. We were always mindful that we needed to be able to get back up off the mat when the pandemic stopped impacting us and we could do our business again. That is a little bit of context around why we felt we needed to make that decision.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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Ms Gubbins has given me an answer. I would have thought the DAA's reputational profile was more important than its financial profile, particularly when it could have reached out to the Government and sought support in view of the circumstances in which it found itself.

What is the ratio of permanent staff to casual staff to temporary staff at the airport? We have heard a lot of discussion about the contracts and I know people who have applied for the jobs that are available. Our guests have told us that the contracts guarantee an employee 20 hours per week, possibly 40 hours per week, and staff are required to be on stand-by. The DAA is restricting itself when it comes to recruitment. For instance, somebody in Tipperary might apply for a job at the airport, be given 20 hours per week and told they are on stand-by for another 20 hours. That means the person must get from the midlands to the airport at short notice. The DAA must go back to having a permanent, fully trained, qualified and professional staff who can expedite proceedings. It has been too reliant on casual staff. The contract that the DAA has out at the moment leads me to believe that it intends to go forward with casual contracts. Will our guests tell me that ratio?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I will bring Mr. O'Hanlon on that question because this is an issue on which we are focusing at the moment, particularly in this labour market.

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

I thank the Deputy. It is important we get across that the last thing the DAA wants is to offer our colleagues contracts that would not allow people to have a decent standard of living and some certainty with regard to when and how they work. I can understand how people see those types of contracts that typically exist in the retail sector but they do not operate the same way in the aviation sector. The vast majority of our employees are permanent, full-time employees, particularly in this area where 75% of the airport search unit, ASU, officers work what are called static rosters, which mean there is no fluctuation in the number of hours they work or when they work them. They have absolute certainty in that regard.

In the model we have brought in as a result of Covid-19, 25% of people are on a flexible pool roster and will work between 20 and 40 hours per week. They get 30 days notice of a 30-day roster. It is 60 days before there is any change to people's rosters. I can tell the committee that the DAA has no intention to go down the road of bringing in casual contracts of employment. It is not in our interests because retention would be an issue. We have issues around Garda clearance and training. It is not at all in our interests to have turnover of employees. We want to make sure we offer a package that attracts people to work in the DAA and I believe we do. The 4,000 applications that came in for these roles in the ASU are demonstrable proof of that.

We are committed. I, as the head of employee relations, work with the heads of HR and each of the business units. We look at the contracts and engage with our trade union partners. All the contracts we have are negotiated and agreed with all the unions that exist in DAA. I can assure the committee that it is not our desire to have contracts that encourage people to leave. That is not in our interests and it is not how we want to treat our employees.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the representatives of the DAA. Will Mr. Philips apologise to his staff? I know he apologised to the travelling public. It is a mistake that he did not bring with him to the meeting one of his work directors or front-line staff. I ask Mr. Philips to apologise to his staff. I know some of our guests were in the airport last Sunday. They got the brunt of the abuse. The decisions that were made deserved abuse but the staff on the front line did not.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I apologise unreservedly to each and every one of our staff members who had to deal with a working environment for which they never signed up.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Philips. That is important.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I apologise unreservedly.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Philips paid tribute to his staff at his meeting with the committee on 4 April. I thank him for coming here today, and for his honesty and candour.

"Claire Byrne Live" on Monday night interviewed a former member of staff of the DAA. I speak to members of DAA staff in Dublin and Cork. I think the organisation has wonderful staff. However, I am told, rightly or wrongly, that part of the issue is the staffing contracts. For example, what happens if the same thing happens this coming weekend and 17, 20 or 37 people do not come in for a 3 a.m. shift? What happens then? How can the people who are due the 3 a.m. shift be incentivised? Are the contracts wrong?

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

I do not believe so. The contracts incorporate a shift premium for the employees. We do not have that issue at all other times of the year. What happened last Sunday was a combination of a number of factors which my colleagues have touched on.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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What happens this weekend if the same thing happens in the exact same manner or a similar manner?

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

I do not believe any of that relates to the contact of employment.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Hanlon does not believe that.

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

I do not believe that causes the issue. Colleagues have been absent for whatever reasons. We have a very attractive sick-pay scheme that covers people. However, I do not believe the contract contributes to that.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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When does the weekend begin? When will the new four-point plan kick in?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The four big days of the bank holiday weekend are Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I know members of Mr. Philips's staff have been on the public airwaves. It is important that through social media, the national airwaves and our media, the DAA communicates directly with people. I ask Mr. Philips to do that on a regular basis. I ask him not to communicate with people through this committee meeting. It is important that the DAA communicates with people.

Mr. Philips's presentation referred to issues with processes. The travelling public have no interest in who can open and close a particular lane. Have staff been empowered to do that this weekend? Mr. Philips said that certain staff members have not been appropriately certified so they cannot readily replace other DAA staff with the necessary clearance. Have those process issues been solved now?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Perhaps Mr. Cullinane could cover the point the Senator made about communication before I or Mr. Hennessy cover the process piece.

Mr. Kevin Cullinane:

I thank the Senator. An average of more than 300 articles or interviews have been published or broadcast every day since last Sunday about what transpired at Dublin Airport. I assure the committee that I and my communications team have been readily available to all members of the media, including those present today and those in the broadcast, print and online media, at all times. That will continue to be the case. We will have a rigorous and robust communications plan around the four-point plan for the bank holiday weekend. We will certainly be engaging with the media immediately after this session with the committee.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Some clarity, Senator Buttimer, on the------

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Apologies for my lack of technical know-how but Mr. Philips said in his presentation this afternoon certain staff cannot open lanes or lines and only certain staff can open lines. I refer to points 33 and 34. Point 34 states: "Many of those 37 staff have particular clearances and certifications required to open and operate a lane ...".

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Correct.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Is that process being changed so we will not have that situation-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It depends on the certification. Maybe Mr. Hennessy wants to share.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Yes. Only 35 screeners can work in screening.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Right.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

So what we have done for this weekend is we have more certified screeners working, so it is not so much a process issue. There was a process issue, as the Senator pointed out earlier, with respect to our planning for the weekend so that certainly was a process issue.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Okay. I will conclude by saying two things. I thank the DAA representatives. I apologise but I have another meeting. Dublin Airport is a strategically important State asset, facility and service. It should have been classified accordingly. I believe, and Mr. Philips, to be fair, is right that nobody foresaw what was happening because I have gone through the newspapers and articles. Around the world there are issues with aviation, so those who claim to have a knowledge that it was going to happen, I am sorry but they did not. I stand over that in this room. It is not acceptable that on a continual basis some people have said today they want to redeploy staff from Cork Airport to Dublin. We must not cut the capacity of Cork Airport or indeed Shannon Airport because it is critical the capacity of Cork, which is under the DAA's watch, is kept to its fullest. On another day, there needs to be a re-emphasising and a re-accentuating of Government aviation policy and the airlines. The DAA, Government and the airports have a role to play because 85% of our travelling public are coming in and out of Dublin Airport and that is far too high.

I conclude by wishing Mr. Philips well in his new move. Today is a disappointing day for him and his staff here are doing their best. I thank the staff on the front line last Sunday. I had people ringing me at 6 a.m. in the morning and I thought they were imagining it or making it up. They were not, unfortunately. I hope we will never be back to where we were today but I thank the DAA representatives for coming in.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I thank the Senator.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am on the roster myself so just a couple of things. For the public looking in at the moment Mr. Philips, if they turn up Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Monday to Dublin Airport to get a flight, what will be the situation? How long will they be queuing outside terminal 1 or terminal 2? How long do you anticipate it will take for them to get through their airline and then from the airline they have to queue to get into security? Once they pass just checking at security then they go into the security checks themselves, so how long will they be waiting?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Our advice is as we discussed earlier, that is, two and a half hours if you do not have a bag to drop on a European short-haul flight. Allow an extra hour if you need to check a bag in. We will do everything we can do get as many through. As I said, 95-odd% of all people through May went in under 45 minutes. There will be periods over this weekend, Chairman, where queuing could be an hour.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Philips expecting people to be queuing outside terminal 1 and terminal 2?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

At certain peak points there may be queuing outside. As I said, this morning we had people out for ten minutes. People were making their flights, the queue was moving well. We want to be at 20 minutes. That is our goal. That is where we were and that is where we will get back to.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have looked at the weather forecast. Tomorrow there is rain from 2 p.m. onwards. On Friday there is rain forecast on the airport's early morning flights between midnight and 1 p.m. The rest of the weekend at the moment seems okay. If it is raining outside terminal 1 and terminal 2 what is Mr. Philips going to tell his passengers?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Part of the plan is to use other areas where we can ensure passengers are covered. We do not want anybody else-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What are the other areas?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

This is the triage point Mr. McLean was talking about earlier in terms of some of our atrium and car-parking facilities.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If it is raining will people be out in the rain?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Potentially, Chairman.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is dreadful. Just looking at that on a human level, right-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The plan is though, as I said, that we want to get covered areas so that does not happen-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask the DAA to address that. Secondly, I have seen its plan and I have a few quick questions. Where are the 40 people who are extra security staff coming from? What is their make-up?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We have a training class coming out of training this week.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many of the 40 are trainees?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Thirty.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are they some of the 17 who could not come on last weekend?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Potentially.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Of those 40 you said how many are trainees?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Thirty.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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And the other ten?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We have three from Cork and then we have a mixture of us consolidating our vehicle control posts, so we have control posts which are around the perimeter so we are consolidating some of those and bringing staff in. We are also redeploying some of our officers who are currently assisting with training and we are redeploying those, so that brings it up to 40.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is there are 14 airport police available. Are they being redeployed? They would have the security clearance. Are they being redeployed?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

They would not have the certification required for screening. Those airport police would have been very heavily involved last weekend for example in crowd control-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

-----so they have other duties across the airport and-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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With due respect Mr. Hennessy, "crowd control" is a bit of a poor choice of words because the passengers who came on to me were in terminal 1, which is very low. It was stifling and they did not have access to services. I ask on this occasion that if people are queuing the authority ensures they get access to water. Free water should be handed out. There should be proper sanitary services, toilets, food and those sort of things.

Going back to Mr. Philips, I want to get to a point where when people turn up in terminal 1 and terminal 2 how long before they get to board their flight. I had a couple on to me on Saturday night. They turned up for a short-haul flight of two and a half hours to Madrid to go over to their family. It was a 6.20 p.m. Ryanair flight. They arrived at terminal 1 at 3.30 p.m. in the afternoon. They did not get to departure on gate 119 until 6.30 p.m. and there was no-one there and the plane was gone. To say people only missed their flights on Sunday is incorrect as they missed them on Saturday. Tell me the time period on that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Some 94% of people were under 45 minutes through May.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I want to deal with the here and now.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the question.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My question is with the 40 additional staff on, on average how long does the DAA think people will be waiting to get through from the time they turn up at the terminal to boarding their flight?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

At peak periods they could be up to an hour this weekend in the security line. That is not where we want to be long term.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That means someone who is short-haul, if the DAA is telling him or her to turn up two and a half hours beforehand, it believes it can get him or her through in an hour.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

At peak periods it could be an hour. It could be a little bit more. I am very sorry for the Chairman's friends who missed that flight.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Philips, we are in the role and we have to ask. In the media there are reports you flew to Saudi Arabia on Saturday. Is that correct? How long did you queue? Obviously you are a businessperson - they were waiting four hours and they still missed their flight, on a human level on Saturday night, to go over and meet their family. Did you fly to Saudi Arabia on Saturday night?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I flew out on Saturday. I was going out to the Middle East - as you know for 40 years DAA has been operating internationally. When I landed I was clearly aware of what was going on on the Sunday, so having flown through the night on Saturday night I turned around and I came straight back on a night flight again.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For the ordinary person, how long did you have to queue to get your flight from Dublin Airport?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

On Saturday, the way I was travelling actually - I travel various different ways when I am going, sometimes I travel through the normal process, sometimes I go through fast-track and sometimes I go through platinum services.

At the stage I went through platinum services on Saturday, the lines in the business services were okay.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For how long was Mr. Philips queuing?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It took me an hour to get through.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Philips was queuing for an hour but this older couple were queuing for four. Is that fair?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I am deeply sorry for that couple. Clearly, there will be compensation-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Surely Mr. Philips knew before he took the flight. At what time was the flight to Saudi Arabia?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I had to be airside at 4 o'clock.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Surely Mr. Philips knew at that point about the chaos in Dublin Airport. Would he not have decided not to travel?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The issue we had was on Sunday. I turned around and came straight back. I never even got to my destination. I took two night flights and I am deeply sorry for-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am just putting it in context. Mr. Philips has set out the schedule for the plan. I see Thursday to Monday, with a first wave, second wave, third wave and fourth wave for each day. For departing "PAX", I see figures of 15, 12, 11, and eight. Is that 15 in total between T1 and T2? What is the breakdown in those peak periods? Is it half and half?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is approximately 60:40.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many would typically be in T1? We should have been provided with a breakdown between T1 and T2. How many of the 15 will be in T1 and how many will be in T2?

Mr. Gary McLean:

Approximately 9,000 will be in T1, with the balance in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Nine and four.

Mr. Gary McLean:

No.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For the first wave on Friday, there will be 16.

Mr. Gary McLean:

It will be similar. Approximately 8,000 to 9,000 will be in the first wave.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Nine and seven.

Mr. Gary McLean:

At 1 a.m., there will be just over 10,000, if I remember correctly.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the breakdown between T1 and T2 of the first wave on Saturday?

Mr. Gary McLean:

On Saturday morning, it could be ten and six.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a figure of 15 for the first wave on Saturday.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Does the Chairman mean Sunday?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I am sorry.

Mr. Gary McLean:

It will be nine and six.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a figure of 16 for the first wave on Monday.

Mr. Gary McLean:

It will be ten and six.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is serious congestion in T1. There will be nine during the first wave on Friday, ten during the first wave on Saturday, nine during the first wave on Sunday and ten during the first wave on Monday. Is that sufficient? What I am hearing is that, if there are 12 lanes open, people are probably looking at an hour of a wait. Over the weekend, there were six open in each terminal at peak periods. The airport is going-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Six to seven.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The airport is only increasing from six or seven to nine in T1 and dropping-----

Mr. Gary McLean:

I am sorry. The "nine" was 9,000 passengers, not lanes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I want to know the number of lanes.

Mr. Gary McLean:

On Sunday morning, we estimate that we will require 11 lanes in terminal 1.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many in terminal 2?

Mr. Gary McLean:

Approximately the same at peak time. We are currently-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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But the figure the witnesses have supplied for the first wave is 15.

Mr. Gary McLean:

That is 15,000 passengers.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are not giving me the information I want. I just want to know about the first waves from Thursday to Monday. Give me the breakdown of the number of lanes open in T1 and T2 for the first waves across the four days.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is dynamic, but we can give the Chairman an approximation.

Mr. Gary McLean:

For the first wave on Thursday morning, we will have 12 lanes open in T1-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And how many in T2?

Mr. Gary McLean:

-----and 11 open in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about Friday?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

This is from 4 a.m.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. Friday.

Mr. Gary McLean:

For Friday, we are planning to have 13 lanes open in T1 and 12 open in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Saturday.

Mr. Gary McLean:

We are planning to have 13 lanes open in T1 and 12 open in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Sunday.

Mr. Gary McLean:

On Sunday, we are planning to have 13 lanes open in T1 and 11 open in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Monday.

Mr. Gary McLean:

On Monday, we are planning to have 12 lanes open in T1 and 11 open in T2.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That gives me more reassurance. On Thursday, there will be 12 and 11 lanes open. On Friday, there will be 13 and 12 lanes open. I presume that these figures will be replicated pro rata across the other waves.

Mr. Gary McLean:

The number goes up and down, depending on the flows. We also have the ability to move teams between terminals.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that, if 12 lanes are open, people are probably waiting for an hour. Is that reasonable?

Mr. Gary McLean:

We are confident that, with 12 lanes open, it will be less than an hour.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Would the authority consider increasing the number of lanes open in each terminal at 6 a.m.? This would reassure people a great deal.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The Chairman asked whether there were 15 lanes in T1 and we were debating whether there were. Our desire is to have as many open for as much of the time as possible.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It reassures people a great deal if they knows that the lanes are open.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

That is what we are building back up to. That is how we used to operate.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will the authority do that, even over the weekend? The witnesses are giving us an assurance that the number of lanes that will be open is what they have outlined.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

To qualify, that will be in the peak period because staff have to get breaks. The number moves around. We want to get as many as we can. We wish we could open more.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Of the 248 security checkers let go through voluntary redundancies, how many are looking to come back and has the authority discussed bringing them back with the unions?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have not approached any yet to see who wants to return. Mr. O'Hanlon might share his thoughts on our discussion with the-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They are very experienced. I am conscious of my time.

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

We spoke to the unions yesterday, which was our most recent engagement with them. The feedback from the unions is not positive.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Even if those checkers were put on three-month contracts.

Mr. Brendan O'Hanlon:

We outlined that we were considering a four-month contract with a two-month extension, but there was a negative response to that. I put a call into one of the union officials today before coming to this meeting to understand what might be driving that position and what could be done to move the situation on. We have scheduled a number of engagements with the trade union around this population, their pay and whether anything can be done that might address the negative reaction.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Our focus is on training the recruits who are coming through. We have a pipeline-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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A quick clarification. Before the authority let the 248 go, how many security checkers did it have?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Close to 700 in the central search area and a total population of 900.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Letting go of the 248 bought the number down to-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It was essentially a 25% reduction.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----approximately 650. How many does the authority have today?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are approximately 170 short of where we need to be.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No. Does the authority still have the 650?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is like apples and oranges. We have 535 in our central search area.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the difference between the 535 and the 650?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We have 535 in central search and another 104 in training, and the balance are in our external vehicle control posts.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many people has the authority recruited from its security checker recruitment drive?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

To date, we have recruited approximately 300.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many of those are on the front line currently?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Some 100 are in training, with the balance on the front line.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are 30 of the 200 among the 40 who will be on duty this weekend?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When will the other 100 be trained?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Over the next two to four weeks.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They will all be in place by the end of June.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Correct.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, we would all prefer to be dealing with a different set of circumstances. I apologise if I go over ground that members have already covered. I was trying to run two events while watching this on my phone, but it is what it is. We do not need me to repeat how this was a disaster and chaos and that no one wants to see it happen again. It was even a disaster for the State from an international point of view.

I wish to discuss the 37 people, including the 20 who did not show up, and the issue with rostering and a lack of certification. Mr. Philips stated that the process had been changed. Did the issue never arise previously? Was the number of people who did not show up an aberration?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

This was a new class of 17 trainees. As I said earlier, it is a manual process whereby they were in the system to be rostered but they were not certified or ready to go into-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. Someone believed they were going to be rostered. The issue has never arisen before, DAA has caught it and it will not happen again.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It was a manual process and we have put belt and braces in place to ensure it never happens again. As the Deputy said, it created huge distress for the travelling public and I am deeply sorry for that.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many staff did DAA have on overall? That 20 was out of how many?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

A typical shift on that Sunday was about 275. When we lost the 37 we were down to 238.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Those 17 were, for want of a better phrase, DAA's own fault or a process mistake, and 20 others did not show up. Would that be usual?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It was a high level of absenteeism but as we have discussed, our staff are under a huge amount of stress. If people are sick, they are sick.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that completely.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There were 17 staff out sick last Sunday or out for their own personal reasons.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was 20.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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This happens in normal life. People will get sick. Does DAA have a contingency built into its numbers that caters for that eventuality?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We do. This was over and above-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For this coming weekend, is that built in?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What numbers can DAA cater for in terms of people being out sick over the bank holiday weekend?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We run on fine margins. If we have a situation where there are 20 absent, which I hope will not happen again, it gets more complicated. Thankfully, we have a plan in place. We have more people operating and we have a series of different processes. I cannot give a queue time.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are there people on standby to come in and take up those positions if that happens?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

If somebody calls in sick at 2 a.m., no.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am amazed at that type of planning. Surely the DAA has learned from last weekend and would have people on standby in the event that staff are unable to attend work, for whatever reason.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We want as many people to work this weekend as possible to give our passengers the best possible experience. After June and July there will be a different level of redundancy in the system. At the moment it is very tight, like in all airports right across Europe. We would love to have more people in but there have been huge demands on our staff. They have done an extraordinary job.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We all accept that, considering the pressure they are under. Anybody who has been through an airport in the last while can attest to that. We had a particular situation that we need to avoid. Mr. Philips is talking about this four-point plan. I was led to believe, and the Chair was probably coming from the same place, that there is a ramp-up facility if needed.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are very tight at the moment. We are asking the travelling public to bear with us. I am not sure if the Deputy heard this earlier but we said nobody across Europe expected this ramp-up in travel.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have had this conversation about 2024 and 2025. We have all heard anecdotal information that people said they wanted to fly the minute they could. None of that matters.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Senator Buttimer talked about various different reports that showed where the analysts were.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Either way, it is the other one. We are where we are. DAA has looked at Cork Airport from a point of view of human resources. Where else has it looked? If it is completely under pressure and stretched, has it had a conversation with the Government about the possibility of bringing people in? Are there any suitable people within State services? There is much talk of bringing in the Army. It is a case of whatever is necessary has to be put on the table. Where are those conversations at?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

An Garda Síochána has been exemplary and has really stepped up to the plate. We are very grateful for that. Many other agencies have also helped. The IAA has been tremendous in its support and Shannon Airport has been very supportive. It does not have any trained and certified security officers-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there anyone who can give DAA anything it needs?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Is that in terms of security screeners?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Or anybody who can fill that position.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We are on our own.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is it. There is no short-term fix.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The whole of Europe is scrambling for these security screeners.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. A number of people have already stated that we are paying for the sins of the past because of the 1,000 people who were let go. Mr. Philips will make whatever arguments he will in that regard but that is what it is at this point in time. This plan is basically putting everybody DAA possibly can in play for the next period and ensuring training will happen for those who need to be trained. Is that the case?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The solution is getting new, certified officers to support the team. There are around 30 coming in a week. It is a slow process.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any way of speeding that up? Beyond that, I was told there is a difficulty as the training department was impacted by people being let go before. Is that correct?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We lost resources in the training department but that is not a constraint at present.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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DAA has made up for that. As anyone who has travelled will know, this is an issue across Europe. For people who were travelling with Aer Lingus and needed to do a bag drop over the last while, outside the Saturday or Sunday, they went in and dropped the bag and disappeared through the security checks. If they were travelling with Lufthansa or another airline, they had to wait until two hours before the flight to drop their bags. I assume that is partly due to airlines not putting sufficient staff on. I have been told Ryanair has failed in certain places to put enough staff on to facilitate their customers. I am throwing these questions out. It has been put to me that this is the case so I ask Mr. Philips to address that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The whole sector is struggling, whether ground handlers, food and beverage-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. However, is it also a matter of people deciding they can get away with fewer people at check-ins and bag drops? Do they think they have enough there or are they attempting to recruit more people?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

They are all trying their best to give the best customer service in difficult circumstances.

Mr. Gary McLean:

We deal very closely with airlines, the ground handlers and all our partners across the community. I assure the Deputy that all of them are strongly trying to recruit and train staff. They do not certify or train security staff but there is different training they require. They are all going through the same process of vetting, training and getting people but it is a difficult market and they are all struggling. They are trying their best to get back to where we need to be to have Dublin Airport run like it did pre Covid.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is something that needs to happen as soon as possible. It is a pity it did not happen last week. Do we have enough people for the triage process? The first thing everybody watching the scenes on Sunday would have thought about was the person who had checked in and was carrying a bag on but was stuck outside behind the people who needed to swing right to the bag drop but could not. That is something that should have been built in beforehand. We need to have these processes in place while accepting the situation is not perfect. It is also dependent on the weather, this being Ireland.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We would prefer not to have it like this but for the coming weeks, until we get all the resources back, it is going to be a challenge. Our desire is to make sure people safely make their flight.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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At the end of the day, we cannot allow for every situation. DAA knows what it is facing. Is Mr. Philips fairly sure this situation will not arise again? Will there be a significant number of eyes on it, so we know if there is a need for a ramp-up?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have a lot of confidence. The numbers are high this weekend so we have put a clear plan in place to give confidence to people that they will make their flights.

Mr. Gary McLean:

We are confident we will not be in a scenario like that of last Sunday, but should that happen, we will have a better controlled triage operation outside of the building, which will allow for people to be segregated on the basis of whether they need to go straight to check-in or to security, whether they are people of reduced mobility or depending on which type of passengers they are.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will the triage kick in only if we get to a point where there is severe waiting?

Mr. Gary McLean:

That is true for the full plan but we have different versions of that plan. The full triage plan-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Triage will not apply in the normal way for people coming in. The DAA is encouraging people not to arrive too early.

Mr. Gary McLean:

Yes. Should we have to limit access control, it will be for such a short period that it will not impact people from the point of view of where they are going and-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The DAA has a very stretched and tired workforce that have been working long hours. At this point, has it made use of all available staff? Are the 40 workers who are in place all who will be available? Has the authority gone to the well in that regard?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

They are doing everything they can.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My next question, in that case, is one that has arisen among the public. There is an argument the DAA should go to the Government to ask for the Army to be on standby, in small numbers of perhaps 40 or 50 members, to pick up on the security duties if necessary. How does Mr. Philips respond to that argument on the basis the DAA does not have a sufficient level of reserves, in terms of back-up for the workforce, at this point?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The deployment of State services is absolutely outside of our remit-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, however, if the question arises, it will have had to come from a request from the DAA. The question is whether the authority is at that point. What is Mr. Philips's view on the case for that proposal, which is being put out there? It has to be a request of the DAA. It runs the airport. Our guests are the professionals and they are given a remit to run the airport. How can they deal with that?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I might come in there. I thought Mr. Philips said earlier that State services were not able to provide the DAA with what it needed and that, therefore, using the Army was not in question. That seems to differ from what he has just stated.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

An Garda Síochána is on our premises and we work closely with it-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the DAA requested additional support?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The Army would not be certified to run screening-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not suggest it would be. My understanding is there are about seven people on each security lane, comprising two people meeting people initially, one person monitoring the screen, two people handling security and two other people inside. There are activities the Army could do.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

All those activities, apart from what we call divestiture, which is when passengers are asked to take off their jacket and remove liquids, gels, laptops and so on, require clearance. Workers have to be Garda cleared to be airside but they do not have to be certified. For all the other roles, workers have to be certified by the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Army could, therefore, take up some of the roles. Will Mr. Philips address that point, which has been put out there?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

I might respond to that. The Army is not aviation-security cleared, so it cannot work in an airside environment. Were it aviation-security cleared, the only role its members could do would be divestment, but that is not our constraint. People like us can do divestment, which we have been doing.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is divestment?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

It is where we assist passengers to put their bags on the trays, take off their jackets and take out their liquids and gels.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could that be fast-tracked?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Army not oversee divestment?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Army members are not aviation-security cleared.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Hennessy suggesting the talks about the Army potentially assisting are spurious and that it cannot happen?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

The Army could assist, potentially, in other roles but not in aviation security.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could divestment be fast-tracked? I asked earlier whether there were any means by which we could speed up the training process.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

To return to Mr. Philips's earlier points, An Garda Síochána has done phenomenal work and has sped up the Garda vetting process as much as possible. A very significant volume of resources is in that system already - DAA staff, the partners, the airlines - so it is pretty much fully tasked.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Philips referred earlier to using the platinum services. My understanding is that the fast-track lane is closed at the moment and that all the lanes are operating regular security. Is that correct?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No, fast-track is open in both terminals.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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The platinum services are offered to VIP guests and allow for private check-in, security and so on, and Mr. Philips is familiar with them given, as he stated, he used them last Saturday. Did he pay for the use of the platinum services or did that come out of the DAA's expenses?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The charge is made to my cost centre. I do not personally pay for it but the charge is made into my travel budget. I travel in many different ways. I think it is important to be in all parts of the business, whether that is going through the fast-track product, the regular security product or the platinum services product, and it is an opportunity to see and talk to staff. The platinum services have been our best performing business over the pandemic period, given people were concerned earlier during the pandemic. The staff have done a terrific job and we are proud of the work they do.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Philips stated people were concerned about travelling earlier during Covid. Clearly, the people who use the platinum services are not just concerned about travelling during Covid but also have deep pockets. Access to the service starts at €295 and there are optional extras such as chauffeur services. When Mr. Philips used the platinum services on Saturday, did he avail of the chauffeur element of it as well?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

With this product, passengers are taken to the aircraft by a different vehicle. It is a very popular product and I think it is important, as CEO, to see all our products. I do not use the service very often. I happened to use it on Saturday because I wanted-----

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Was it because of the delays in the airport? Did Mr. Philips avail of this high-end system because there were already delays when he was travelling through the airport on Saturday?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I did a 3 a.m. shift starting on Monday last week and worked the full week. I worked on Saturday and then went straight to the Middle East. When I heard there was an issue, I came straight back. If there had been an issue before I left, I would not have got on the flight, but instead I left and then came all the way back. I would have saved myself the company cost of travelling to the Middle East. Had I known Sunday was going to be how it was, I certainly would not have travelled on Saturday.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I accept that and I do not doubt Mr. Philips works very hard. He is very well paid, but I do not doubt he works very hard for that money, as do many of the other people working at the airport who earn much less money. He stated he likes to use the different types of security lanes, whether the fast-track, the regular or the platinum, in order that he can get a feel for the experience of people coming through the airport, but did he choose to use the platinum services on Saturday because he already knew significant delays through the airport were developing and it meant he would not have to queue because he was able to bypass the queues?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Categorically not. I travel a lot and I would normally travel through either central search or fast-track. I move between the two and that is an opportunity to meet different officers. As any of those officers will agree, there is always a bit of banter when someone they know is travelling through security. I certainly would not have gone to the Middle East if I had known this was happening, and that is why I immediately turned around and came back.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Philips stated the platinum services are one of the best performing services the DAA offers, and I think fast-track is also quite popular. How much does the DAA take in annually from sales relating to fast-track and the platinum services, respectively?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We do not break that down and we keep it commercially sensitive, for obvious reasons. It is not that I do not want to share the information with the Senator but I know that many of the competitor airports throughout Europe would like to know it. Both fast-track and the platinum service are very successful products. Our staff win many awards throughout Europe for the product they serve. The €295 fee, compared with the price for a similar product elsewhere in Europe, such as at Heathrow Airport or Brussels Airport, offers incredible value and the staff do a brilliant job.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say that if it is a well-performing product, it is in the interests of the DAA to have queues that do not move very efficiently? I believe a member of the committee held up a picture of Shannon Airport earlier, where there were no queues. Is it not in the interests of the DAA to have some delays or queues, so that there is a product to sell to those who can afford to bypass the "ordinary person" queue and pay their way to a faster service?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No, absolutely not. We compete against all the other European airports. Our goal is to get people through as quickly as possible, to get them into the departure lounge and get them comfortable. It is very standard across all major airports to have a fast-track product. The airlines, in many cases, will demand that airports have that. If we are competing for airlines such as Qatar Airways or Emirates to come to Dublin Airport, one of their prerequisites will be that we have to have a fast-track product. Aer Lingus is very proud of its fast-track product. It is not the case that it is in the interests of the DAA to have queues. Perhaps Mr. Harrison wants to share some points on that question.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I have one more question, if there is time, on the issue of baggage. First, I ask Mr. Philips to confirm that the cost of him travelling platinum comes out of his pay package with the DAA. Is that correct?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No. Just to be clear, there is no such thing as a free travel pass through platinum. Earlier I shared my recent experience of travelling through platinum services. If I travel through platinum services, my cost centre will be debited €295. It is not a product that we use willy-nilly. There are no gratuities. However, I think it is important that as a CEO I experience all types of service through the airport. Certainly, I would have not travelled to the Middle East if I had known that the events of Sunday were going to happen.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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So Mr. Dalton's cost centre deals with his expenses.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes. I submit travelling expenses like any other expenses.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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My final question concerns the issue of baggage. We have heard that over 1,000 people missed their flights at the weekend. Are there figures available for delays in baggage? How many bags did not make it on to planes, went to the wrong place or were left in the airport? Are there any updated figures available on that?

Mr. Gary McLean:

We facilitate the access of the baggage from the check-in area through to the ground handlers and airlines in the baggage hall. The actual statistics around whether bags make flights are held by the airlines. We do not measure or have that information as an airport. We work with our partners to ensure the systems work to get the bags to where they need to be, to bring to the aircraft. Beyond that, we have no way of tracking whether the bags are put on aircraft.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. McLean happy with the baggage handling at the weekend?

Mr. Gary McLean:

All across the industry at the moment, baggage is a challenge. We have seen that in many media reports. The issue is not specific to Dublin Airport. It is part of the wider challenge across industry that we are discussing today. Baggage is being repatriated at airports all across Europe at the moment. An issue with baggage may arise at any airport and the baggage may be repatriated through Dublin. It is very hard to pinpoint if a particular baggage issue is a problem that is specific to Dublin Airport.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Was it a problem at the weekend? Was there an issue with bags backing-up on baggage belts? Were staff basically overwhelmed by the amount of baggage that was coming through in trying to ensure the baggage got to the planes it needed to get to?

Mr. Gary McLean:

As we said earlier, all parts of the industry and all parts of the community at Dublin Airport are really struggling with resources. The service levels that would have normally been provided pre-Covid are all a bit diminished. That includes the number of staff working in the baggage operation. We do not have figures relating to baggage staff. They are ground handlers working for airlines who are doing those activities.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Will the DAA be asking for those figures so that we can get a full picture of just how bad the events of the weekend were?

Mr. Gary McLean:

We work with the airlines day in, day out. They are very active in the recruitment market currently, trying to get staffing levels back to the levels they were at previously, to try to ensure these problems do not persist. We work closely with them to ensure is it as smooth as it possibly can be, like all parts of the operation, day in, day out.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Horkan.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I am conscious that a lot of the ground that I might have wanted to cover has already been covered. As one of the few Dublin-based members of the committee present, I can say that Dublin Airport is not just an asset for Dublin; it is an asset for the whole country. I believe that 87% of national aviation traffic goes through Dublin Airport. When something goes wrong, it reflects badly on the DAA, on Dublin and on Ireland. Ultimately, we become a bit of a laughing stock. I know that is the last thing that the DAA wants to happen, and the last thing we want to happen. The DAA is a 100% State-owned company. It is giving ammunition to people who say that the State cannot run things. I do not want that ammunition to exist. Suffice to say, the service has not been satisfactory in any way, as the witnesses have admitted. People presumably missed not just holidays, but also weddings and funerals. It is just not acceptable that people are missing flights.

I have a few short questions not just on the issue of delays, but also on the general passenger experience through Dublin Airport at the moment. Is it correct that 248 of the original staff complement were let go?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

The total number was much higher than that. The 248 figure refers to the number of security staff who were let go.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to the number of security staff let go.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Yes, it was approximately 248.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What was the cost of that to the DAA? Did the State and the DAA share that cost?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We took the full cost of that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How much would that have been?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

The full cost of our overall voluntary severance programme was €100 million for just under 800 staff who left.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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A little over a quarter of that would have been security staff. Is it correct that around €25 million was spent on severance for security staff?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

It is difficult to be that exact about it. The amount depends on the length of service.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to do the maths of spending €25 million on 250 people. It seems like quite a big lump sum per person. What was the amount per person?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

To be honest, I cannot recall the figure for security staff specifically. I am happy to come back to the committee with more specifics on that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It just seems to be a very large amount. Does the DAA have the ability, in law or otherwise, to bring any of those people back? Have any of them been asked back?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have been working on a very clear plan to recruit staff. Over 4,000 people have been seeking to work with us. That is our plan. Our plan is not to approach people who took a voluntary severance and left the company. Our plan is to get people who want to come work with us.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Are they in any way precluded from coming back?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

There are a number of tax issues around bringing people back.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is my point, really. That is why I am asking the question.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

That is not our focus at the moment. Our focus is on the people who want to join the company, not the people who have left.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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To be fair, I think it would be-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

They would still need to certified.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that, but I presume that people who did the job previously perhaps took the package because it might have been too good to turn down. It might have been that they did not see the bounceback coming. Perhaps some of them were just burnt out from the particular lifestyle involved in the work. Working at 3 o'clock in the morning or 11 o'clock at night and doing night shifts is not for everyone. Is Mr. Philips saying that there are issues with bringing staff back, or there can be issues? There are issues in terms of-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We have not been focusing on bringing staff back.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If some of those people wanted to come back, could they come back? Can they reapply or are they precluded from doing so?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

At the moment, we want to work through this, and with our union partners. We could not bring back people who worked with us previously on any permanent basis. They could only come back on a temporary basis.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Why?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Because of the nature of the scheme.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is the point that is being finally acknowledged. I have no problem with that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

I was not trying to------

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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In any business, people who have done the job before are better skilled at it than people starting from scratch, by and large, unless they have been managed out for a different reason. In many cases, the work was not available for these people and the DAA wanted them off the pay roll to reduce its cost base, which is totally understandable given the downturn. Is it the case that that is it, and those people are precluded from coming back?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

Technically speaking, yes, from a Revenue perspective.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is what I am really asking. Is it correct that the DAA has hired 300 staff?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

Yes.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So the DAA is now back to a complement of security staff that is greater than the number of staff lost. Some 248 staff were lost, and more than 300 have been hired.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

No. We also had people who actually-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Are there people who did not avail of the voluntary redundancy scheme but also left?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

Yes.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How many were there?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

In excess of 60 people would have left. They decided to leave the business of their own accord.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What was the top figure? Was it nearly 1,000 or 900?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

Does the Senator mean on the overall voluntary segment?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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No, in the context of security generally, what was the maximum number ever in security?

Ms Catherine Gubbins:

Is that in 2019 and before Covid?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. How many was it? Was it 900?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Yes, it was maybe 900.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The DAA lost 248 to the retirement scheme, the early severance package, or whatever you want to call it, and lost another 60 people who just walked for other reasons. The DAA is down about 300 people and has recruited 300, so it is now more or less back to full strength based on where it had been pre-Covid. Is that correct?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

Of the 300 people we recruited, more than 100 of those are in training so they are not-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so they are not available yet. When they become available, will the DAA be back to full strength?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

We are getting close to it. Certainly by June, we will be close to full strength.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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This is June. Today is 1 June.

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

By the end of June. We are actually going to recruit more people just to give us more headroom through the summer.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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With regard to Covid, at this stage I know two or three people who got Covid in the past three weeks. How much is Covid affecting the DAA staffing levels at this point?

Mr. Maurice Hennessy:

There is no doubt that it is still having an impact. It had a very significant impact in January and February but it is still having an impact on our business.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Of the 37 people who were missing at the weekend, the absence of 17 was some sort of a glitch whereby the DAA thought that they were recognisably certified but they were not. What was the story with the other 20 people?,

Mr. Dalton Philips:

They were absent for a variety of reasons.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not the case that they just did not appear in the morning. Did they ring up in advance and say "I will not make it today" or "I will not be in", or was the DAA looking for them and realised they were not there?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is a combination. Some people woke up and suddenly found that they had an infection and did not want to come to work, for very clear reasons.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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They let the DAA down.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

We knew about the 20, but they were not in our-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am aware the DAA knew that all of a sudden they were not there, and that they may have rung up an hour or two before their shift. Does the DAA have an on-call facility? I worked in security while I was at university. I would get phone calls at 9.30 in the morning asking if I could start an hour and half ago. If I could, I would turn up and do it. I was not trying to load aircraft but there was a backup of people who could be called and were contactable, long before SMS messages and long before mobile phones or emails.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

When we know in advance that somebody is sick we will try to call other people. The reality is that people are stretched at the moment. We had a discussion with the Chairman earlier about having people on call. We would love to get back in terms of resilience to where we had people on call. At the moment we need everybody we can to be in. We are under fine margins.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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When they are not working, they are on downtime and the DAA just does not have the sufficient numbers to have an on-call panel at all.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Regrettably, not at the moment.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time and I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is worrying.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is very worrying. What will happen if we have another outbreak of Covid or if something else goes wrong or some other thing happens? I am very concerned about the fact that last weekend was nice and dry but if it was not - and other members referred to this - then lots of people could have got very wet. I am thinking in particular of people with young children, older people and people with disabilities.

I appreciated the trip. I remember journalists came to me afterwards and said that the test will be Easter, and the DAA passed that test quite well. The DAA made reference at the time - it did not want to overly advertise the fact - that it would be combing the queues to try to comb out people who were further down the queues than they should be with regard to their flights. Did that combing concept ever take off or did it just fail at the weekend because the DAA did not have the manpower to do it?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Through the month of May, 94% of all people got through security-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I read the opening statement, and I appreciate all that, but has the combing concept the DAA spoke about taken off?

Mr. Dalton Philips:

Combing is a difficult concept and perhaps Mr. McLean will talk about that a little bit more. We must be careful about passengers who arrive on time-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.

Mr. Dalton Philips:

-----and then somebody who does not arrive on time.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have a last point. I appreciate that, and this is why I did not want to raise-----

Mr. Dalton Philips:

It is sensitive.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is very sensitive. I am interested in the DAA triage concept where a person arriving six hours in advance is not allowed into the queue ahead of other people. The most irritating thing in the world is if the 50 people in front of me have a flight one hour after mine, and I cannot get there because they are all blocking my way. That is the context in which I talk about the combing of the queue. When will the triage thing actually start?

Mr. Gary McLean:

As we mentioned earlier, this is a contingency we have. We are confident that this weekend we will not need to go into a full triage, as was referred to. It would ensure if there was bad weather, as in the Senator's example, that people would not be standing out in the rain for significant periods of time. We would use the car parks to do that. We would have it available to turn on should we need to turn it on this weekend. We may trial it at some point but as a general rule we are not planning to use it yet.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What were the actual passenger numbers departing on the Sunday, which was the problem day?

Mr. Gary McLean:

It was roughly 50,000.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the maximum number that is anticipated from what the airlines have told the DAA? If every airline took off with full aeroplanes, what is the maximum number of people who would ever go to Dublin Airport this summer? If the DAA knows how many aircraft are going to be departing, if it knows the capacity of each aircraft, and if they were all 100% full, what is the number?

Mr. Vincent Harrison:

The busiest day would be about 59,000 people

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So, we were about 9,000 short of that figure last weekend. The DAA must build up not just the capacity to manage the 50,000 it could not manage but to manage another 9,000 people. How confident is the DAA that it will be able to do that by the time it gets to the 59,000 passengers?

Mr. Vincent Harrison:

The progressive plan, the introduction of more staff and the approximately 30 people coming through training per week are all fundamentally underpinning the plans for July and August, which is when we hit those peaks. It is not simply the peak, it is the fact that-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The waves.

Mr. Vincent Harrison:

-----the waves get more flat because it is busy across the day. We are talking about a Bank Holiday weekend, which I believe everybody appreciates is going to be busy, but it is busier than a Tuesday or Wednesday, whereas in July and August essentially-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That day of 59,000 people, what day is that? On what day does the DAA anticipate 59,000 passengers? Is it 7 July or 15 August. What day are the 59,000 anticipated?

Mr. Vincent Harrison:

I cannot tell the Senator what day of the week it is off the top of my head but-----

Mr. Gary McLean:

The third week of July are our busiest days.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to conclude as the Chairman is in my ear. I thank the witnesses for their forbearance. I wish them all the very best, as one of the few Dublin members of this committee. It is not just in my interest, but it is in everybody's interest right across the country that Dublin Airport thrives and does well. On behalf of everybody, the DAA has my support. If there are issues, and if the DAA needs help from the State, I ask the witnesses to raise that with us. The DAA is a 100% State-owned company. The DAA's profits become the nation's profits. I wish the DAA the very best, mostly on behalf of the passengers travelling to the airport, of whom I hope to be one.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify a point. Looking through the detailed schedule the witnesses have given us of the plan, am I correct in saying that it is 46,000 on Thursday, 52,000 on Friday, 45,000 on Saturday, 48,000 on Sunday, and 52,000 on Monday? That is not dissimilar to the numbers that went through last weekend. Is that correct?

Mr. Gary McLean:

Correct.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There were 37 staff who were out, and the DAA is now bringing that number up to 40. If those 37 staff werein situlast weekend, would the DAA representatives be here today?

Mr. Gary McLean:

No.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Okay. That is it in layman's terms. The DAA has upped the number of lanes to 12. Is that correct?