Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Members are requested to turn off their mobile phones completely or to switch them to airplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their device, for the duration of the meeting. It is not sufficient to put phones on silent mode because this will maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system.

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss horticultural peat supply and the willow scheme. The committee will hear from representatives of Bord na Móna.

We have new requirements relating to Covid. The incidence of Covid has risen fairly dramatically in recent days. I request that people who are in the committee room wear their masks when they are not speaking and observe physical distances.

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matter arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance in relation to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

We are joined today from Bord na Móna by the following: Mr. Ger Breen, head of land and habitats; Dr. John MacNamara, corporate sustainability lead; and Ms Sonya Mallon, company secretary and general counsel. I now invite Mr. Breen to read his opening statement.

Mr. Ger Breen:

I am the head of land and habitats in the Bord na Móna group. I am joined by Ms Sonya Mallon, company secretary and general counsel, and Dr. John MacNamara, corporate sustainability lead.

Bord na Móna was established in 1934 to manage Ireland’s natural resources and use them to support Ireland’s security of energy supply. In recent years the company has progressed through a period of remarkable change that has been largely driven by the climate emergency and the national response to it. Today the company is committed to supporting Ireland’s security of supply through the development and operation of renewable energy assets.

The war in Ukraine and the collective European response to it demonstrate the critical need to make urgent progress on the transition away from fossil fuels and the perennial requirement for us to have a secure supply of energy. Bord na Móna is focused on helping Ireland on both counts.

The committee will be aware that Bord na Móna’s transformation has been progressing for many years. The brown to green strategy prepared the company for the challenges and enabled us to make the necessary changes. This strategy involved: eliminating the dependence of Bord na Móna on high-carbon activities; increasing investment in renewable energy, recycling operations and peatlands restoration; and enabling new low-carbon business operations.

The company’s journey to sustainability was significantly accelerated when in 2019 the High Court ruled that peat extraction, on peatlands which requires assessment under either the environmental impact assessment, EIA, or habitats directive, requires planning permission. Following the High Court ruling, for the first time in its history, Bord na Móna formally suspended all peat extraction. The company made this suspension permanent last year.

The second part of the strategy saw the company take a leading role in delivering key aspects of national climate action policy. This involves investment in a series of recycling and large-scale climate action projects such as wind, solar energy, battery storage, increased biomass renewable electricity, renewable gas and demand-side assets for delivery in this decade.

Also, at the end of 2020, Bord na Móna launched the peatland climate action scheme with Exchequer and company funding, which will harness the natural power of peatlands to secure a store of over 100 million tonnes of carbon in perpetuity, cut emissions and sequester more in the coming years. Hundreds of people previously employed in peat extraction and transport are now working to restore peatlands, maintain a store of millions of tonnes of carbon, massively boost biodiversity, and develop the potential for new amenities for communities up and down the country. The peatlands will also be critically important locations for Ireland's own supply of clean energy as we develop a range of renewable energy assets through our estate. All of this progress means Bord na Móna is hiring people to work in a range of areas connected to the new green economy and continues to be a substantial employer in the midlands.

Regarding horticultural peat supplies, once the full implications of the High Court decision became clear the company signalled to its domestic horticultural peat customers that it would continue to fulfil orders of horticultural peat in 2021, while growers put in place agreements with their new suppliers. Similarly, exports were cut and then eliminated as the company prioritised Irish customers.

The ability of Bord na Móna to extend supply of horticultural peat to domestic growers required careful management of horticultural grade peat reserves - a small percentage of Bord na Móna's peat stock. The company also worked with stakeholders and our individual customers to extend supplies, longer than was previously planned, into the summer months of 2021. During this period Bord na Móna also actively engaged with and contributed in detail to the working group on horticulture that was established by the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan.

Regarding available stocks, Bord na Móna endorses the short-term actions called out in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine working paper published in January. We support the proposal that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine commission an independent expert to work with all suppliers to ascertain the level of horticultural peat stocks available to growers. The current understanding is that there is sufficient stock available to supply growers for the coming period. We note the independent expert will also work with suppliers, Bord na Móna and growers to ascertain whether any other peat would be of interest or value to growers. Such peat might be suitable for mixing by current suppliers to produce a growing medium of value to growers. Should that be the case, Bord na Móna is willing to supply it. Regarding company horticultural equipment, Bord na Móna has already indicated to departmental officials that it would be willing to assist in any way it can to alleviate the current situation that the Irish horticultural industry find itself in.

Concerning sites under 30 ha and their potential for future peat extraction, including licensed turf extraction, the legal position since the 2019 High Court ruling means that peat extraction that requires assessment under either the EIA or habitats directive requires planning permission. This includes peat extraction below 30 ha where the extraction fails a screening exercise. The committee will appreciate that the company has no discretion with regard to the application of the law in this regard.

Before we move to questions, I would like to acknowledge the contribution of our employees who have worked hard to ensure that Bord na Móna becomes a renewed, revitalised and thriving company that is delivering for the people of Ireland. This renewed company is built on a strong foundation of service to the State and is now focused and working hard on the most pressing issues facing our present and future generations.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Breen for his opening statement. All the members of the committee and I have been lobbied strongly by members of the horticulture nursery industries who are extremely worried about their viability and the lack of available horticultural peat for 2022. Thankfully, we are now in the midst of very good Spring weather. Being able to harvest peat in this country for these native industries is essential.

I attended a conference in Paris of agricultural committee chairmen on Sunday and Monday last. We were told there that the Commission has changed its position as regards the usage of coal in certain European countries. The war in Ukraine has definitely changed the landscape significantly. It brought home to us our lack of self-sufficiency.

I got figures today from the nursery industry as regards the significant cost of the importation of peat. Leaving aside the significant cost, the folly that it is as regards climate change would be laughable if it were not so serious. The idea that we have put ourselves in a situation that we have to import peat from an east European country defies comprehension. The costs for Kildare growers alone were given to me today. There is an extra €400,000 per year on costs of transport alone for bring peat into this country. Those industries will not be able to remain viable with such extra costs imposed on them. I very much fear that we will see a scenario that our mushroom industry, with its cost base very significantly affected, will move elsewhere.

I am told that there is a bog in Prosperous which has the best peat in Europe and that we are to re-wet that bog in the next couple of months. While I can understand the environmental benefit of this, surely to ensure that our native industries have peat available would make far more sense.

The industry is making substantial attempts to get away from horticultural peat. At present, they are using 30% of timber fibre. They hope to get that to 50% over a short period of time. Bord na Móna had been their suppliers for a long number of years. Bord na Móna has control of the vast majority of bogs in the country. Mr. Breen is quoting legislation to us. I fully respect the decision of the High Court but, as I have said, we have seen the Commission in the past couple of weeks reversing its policy on coal. Surely there is room for us to get a derogation to allow us to ensure the survival of those native horticulture and nursery industries.

The re-wetting of bogs, while it will have environmental benefits, cannot be done by us at the expense of the economic destruction of two very important industries in this country. I suppose that is an opening statement from me on which Mr. Breen can comment afterwards. I will call other members who have questions for Mr. Breen. Deputy Carthy indicated first.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the representatives from Bord na Móna - Mr. Breen and his colleagues - for being here. For the record, it is good that Bord na Móna, a semi-State company, was willing to attend this committee. I record my disappointment again that we have not been able to have a hearing with the three Ministers responsible because one is refusing to come and the others will not come unless he comes, which is a bizarre scenario. I again propose this week that we invite any of the Ministers who are willing to come to discuss this issue to do so.

I have a number of questions - all relating to peat. I am aware there are other issues that members want to talk about.

I wish to refer to the working group report on reviewing the use of peat moss, which Mr. Breen mentioned, and its references to Bord na Móna. According to the report, Bord na Móna has indicated that it would be willing to assist in any way it can to alleviate the situation in which the horticultural industry finds itself and that this assistance could involve the provision, on commercial terms, of access to extraction equipment, institutional and professional know-how and mixing plant. Since the publication of the report, has any of these resources been made available to players in the industry and, if so, which players?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna has a long association with professional growers in Ireland. To set out two key aspects, we bought professional grade horticultural peat and provided mixing plants so that we might manufacture ready-made compost to meet the needs of our customers. Given our long association, we are aware of the challenges posed to Irish growers. We have been looking to see what we can do within our remit. I am glad to be able to report that Bord na Móna and ICL have entered into a lease agreement for the professional growing media manufacturing facility at our Coolnamona facility and for the supply of professional horticultural peat to that facility. ICL supplies sustainable growing media to professional and ornamental growers and plant propagators across the country. It operates in the professional market, not the retail market, and specialises in this sector.

One might ask, "Why ICL?". It is one of the leading suppliers in the professional growing business in the UK and Ireland and has been supplying raw materials to the sector for many years. Like us, it has been aware of change coming down the tracks and limited peat being used in future. In recent years, it has conducted extensive research into sustainable professional growing media that enable Irish growers to continue production. It has also made substantial investments in new technology.

The leasing of this facility, the supply of professional peat that is earmarked for the Irish market only and the use of wood fibre products to sustain brands through the use of Fibagro Advance wood fibre technology will allow for a transition programme that enables Irish producers to move from peat-based products to non-peat-based products over a number of years, all subject to the extensive research insights that ICL brings to the marketplace, for example, the pioneering innovative wetting agents that it is developing and, in terms of the fertiliser Osmocote, controlled release neutral technologies that will optimise product performance. ICL has been looking into alternative products, reducing the percentage of peat within those and their impact on the crops that professional growers are trying to grow. This should enable professional growers, if they wish, to source a product in the Republic of Ireland.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions to ask. While I appreciate that level of detail, Mr. Breen might try to be briefer. He has dealt with the mixing plant, and I will come back to that later. Does Bord na Móna still have extraction equipment? Has it been made available to players in the industry? If so, who?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes, we have extraction equipment. We are preparing to hold a plant auction in the coming weeks. It will be open to people who want to purchase that equipment.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It will go to the highest bidder. Will it be a public auction?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The working group report indicated that Bord na Móna may have up to 2,000 tonnes of high-grade horticultural peat available. According to correspondence that we have received from Bord na Móna, there may be substantial amounts of other peat. Have the exact amounts been audited and determined yet?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes. There is a volume of professional horticultural peat, estimated to be around 2,000 tonnes, on the Prosperous bog. That will be supplied to ICL at the Coolnamona facility. Subject to quality assurance inspections by ICL, there may also be some additional professional peat available elsewhere. The professional grade peat is subject to high-quality parameters, but we will be conducting other research in conjunction with an independent individual and ICL on the suitability of other peat stocks.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is that Mr. Breen does not have specific figures. Regarding high-grade horticultural peat, he used the term "around 2,000 tonnes". Is there a percentage figure?

Mr. Ger Breen:

We sell professional horticultural peat in cubic volumes. From a weight perspective, it is estimated to be 2,000 tonnes. There may be a discrepancy of 5% to 7%.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of hobby or other peat, I take it that Mr. Breen cannot give a specific figure for weights.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No, because that will be subject to quality inspections first.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The working group report references a number of areas where the independent expert will work with Bord na Móna and other suppliers. What interaction has Bord na Móna had with the independent expert since the report's publication?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I might pass that question to my colleague, Dr. MacNamara, who was a member of the group.

Dr. John MacNamara:

At this stage, we have not had any engagement. I am unaware as to the formal appointment of that independent expert.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is interesting. What we have learned is that Bord na Móna has entered into an agreement with what I believe is an Israeli-owned company based primarily in the UK – ICL – and has given it exclusive access to the only peat that we have a figure for, that being the 2,000 tonnes of high-grade horticultural peat, before engaging with the independent expert that the working group, commissioned by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, indicated would assess all of this. Mr. Breen mentioned the company's attributes and track record. Perhaps he might indicate what interactions there were with other players before entering into this contract.

Mr. Ger Breen:

A process was run seeking expressions of interest in respect of the Coolnamona facility. The outcome of that process saw the lease arrangement being awarded to ICL.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Breen describe what the process involved? Was it publicly advertised? How were people informed that they could submit expressions of interest?

Mr. Ger Breen:

It was confined to a number of players within the professional market.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was any of them Irish based?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Two others.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, it was ICL and the other two players were Irish. Was it limited to three companies?

Mr. Ger Breen:

One was UK based and one was Irish based.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did any other company contact Bord na Móna to express an interest in the plant?

Mr. Ger Breen:

No, not to me in any event.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not mean to Mr. Breen personally but to the company.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The announcement of this agreement indicated the peat use will be for the domestic market alone. Is that correct?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What safeguards will Bord na Móna have in place in the contractual arrangements to ensure that peat cannot be exported to subsidiaries of ICL or to other third parties outside of Ireland?

Mr. Ger Breen:

That is reflected in the contract.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Breen satisfied it is robust enough in that regard?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Breen have any concern that given the agreement, as has been reported, will allow ICL to expand its operations and given the lack of availability to others based in the Irish market, Bord na Móna has facilitated the supplanting of Irish-owned businesses by this company, which will have the exclusive rights to the 2,000 tonnes of peat we are aware of?

Mr. Ger Breen:

As well as sourcing peat from Bord na Móna, ICL will seek to source peat from other peat producers in Ireland.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Many of those producers currently get their peat from Bord na Móna. Is that not the case?

Mr. Ger Breen:

What they get from Bord na Móna is the manufactured product, or what we call ready-made compost, of which peat is only one ingredient. Other ingredients are also required. As I said earlier, ICL is one of the largest suppliers of those ingredients for the Irish professional growers' market.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the agreement and this stock of 2,000 tonnes, how much of that high-grade peat is located in storage and how much is on the bogs?

Mr. Ger Breen:

All of it is on the bogs.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is sitting there and has been harvested as such, with Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, approval.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does it have planning permission?

Mr. Ger Breen:

It was harvested prior to me making the decision to cease peat harvesting.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does that mean it does or does not have planning permission?

Mr. Ger Breen:

It does not have planning permission. It was harvested a number of years ago, prior to the High Court decision.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of the High Court decision and a more recent High Court decision involving a separate company, would Mr. Breen's interpretation of those judgments be the same as mine, such that even after the peat has been harvested, for it then to be collected would amount to a subsequent act of harvesting and would also require planning permission? If not, is it Mr. Breen's view that ICL will be able to extract this peat from the bogs without securing planning permission?

Mr. Ger Breen:

To be clear, there will be no extraction of this peat from the bog. It is in a stockpile on the bog that has previously been harvested.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Breen says it is in a stockpile, is it in mounds or is it sitting on the ground?

Mr. Ger Breen:

It is in a stock mound.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it in a single mound?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I do not know. It is in a stockpile mound.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Breen give us a sense of how much ground the mound covers? I presume it would be measured in acres.

Mr. Ger Breen:

It is only 2,000 tonnes, so it is probably only a small number of acres.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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ICL will take over the running of the Coolnamona plant and will have access to the 2,000 tonnes of high-grade horticultural peat. I presume it will also source peat from other sources.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Breen expect that to be sourced domestically or imported?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I cannot answer that. I believe it is examining domestic sources.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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ICL's current customer base would not justify the operating of that plant full time. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I am not familiar with the specific sales volumes of ICL, so I cannot comment on that.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of the contract with which Bord na Móna engaged with ICL, did it not provide a business case?

Mr. Ger Breen:

We are dealing with the leasing of equipment and the supply of the 2,000 tonnes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Bord na Móna is providing a ready-made plant-----

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and a very valuable commodity in this country at the moment, namely, peat, and it is giving exclusive access to the same company that is leasing the plant from it. Is that correct?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will this arrangement displace the growers and the other players in the sector that the working group report to review the use of peat moss in the horticultural industry set out to protect, or that it at least set out to assist in the transition period ahead?

Mr. Ger Breen:

No, I do not believe it will.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Breen mentioned there are specific stocks for the needs of horticultural use in the country at the moment?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I did not say there are sufficient stocks. Some of the professional peat from Bord na Móna will be used with other ingredients. The plant facility at Coolnamona is more than capable of meeting the needs of the Irish professional growers for the coming season, depending on what peat they can source from private producers in Ireland.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to get a semblance of understanding as to the merits of this deal vis-à-vis the stated objectives of the working group report. To return to the 2,000 tonnes or so of peat that is sitting in a mound, will Bord na Móna remove that peat from the bog prior to ICL taking control or will the company thereafter take care of the extraction?

Mr. Ger Breen:

To clarify, no extraction of peat is happening. Bord na Móna will be responsible for removing the stockpile to the Coolnamona facility and delivering it to the Coolnamona facility, run by ICL.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What types of machines will be used?

Mr. Ger Breen:

We will use a rail system to bring it to a tippler and walking floor trailers to bring it from there to the Coolnamona facility.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Breen is satisfied planning permission will not be required for that activity.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I welcome our guests. The Chairman summed up the issue well earlier. We find ourselves in astonishing circumstances in this country. There was a reference to the lack of self-sufficiency, an issue that can be seen on many fronts. There is great anger among horticulturists and nurseries, and rightly so. That we are throwing away such a great resource that we grow ourselves and that we are then importing it says a lot about the way this country is going. Sadly, it is grinding our country to a halt in many ways.

Are the reports that Irish peat was leaving Ireland true, and if so, was any of that peat Bord na Móna peat?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Is the Deputy referring to a particular period?

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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In the past 12 months, for example.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna ceased exporting peat almost a year ago. I do not know the exact date but it was probably in May or June last. We have not exported any bulk peat since then.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Bord na Móna has exported absolutely no peat since then.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No bulk peat.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Has it exported any peat at all?

Mr. Ger Breen:

There may have been some supplies of retail peat that were mainly non-peat-based products, but there may have been a small percentage of peat in some retail products.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Okay. What is the status of getting Irish peat to Irish growers to allow the realistic transition to non-peat crop growing?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Could the Deputy clarify that question for me?

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I am asking the status of getting Irish peat to Irish growers to allow realistic transition. There has been no transition here, as such. There might be possibilities if there was time given and the problem is there has not. What is the status of getting our peat to Irish growers to allow this realistic transition to non-peat crop growing?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna is aware of the challenge that is faced by the growers in Ireland. We entered into this arrangement with ICL because we want to provide a period of time to enable the Irish customers to transition. As I said previously, with the small amount of Irish Bord na Móna peat being made available, along with the facilities at Coolnamona and other ingredients that ICL will put into these growing media ready-made composts, there will be a product available to Irish growers to enable to transition away from 100% peat-based products to non-peat-based products over a period of time. That opportunity will now exist.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Mr. Breen said "over a period of time". What kind of timeline is he talking about?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Initially, we have entered into a lease agreement for a period of three years.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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We have been talking for quite a while about three aspects of this matter: the environmental impact of transporting peat from the Balkans to Ireland, for example in the context of the lost quality of nursery stock product; the impact on Irish horticulture jobs; and the impact on Irish horticulture businesses. Is there any data on those areas?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I would not be aware of some of the particular answers to that. Perhaps I will pass it over to my colleague, Dr. MacNamara.

Dr. John MacNamara:

At a high level, some of the earlier chapters in the Review of the Use of Peat Moss and Horticulture report, which was referred to by Deputy Carthy, go through those numbers, which have already been read into the record of the committee. I can go through them if the Deputy wants and call them out, but they are in that report.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Okay. I will read that later.

Mr. Ger Breen:

There is probably a requirement of about 60,000 cubes, which is about 15,000 to 18,000 tonnes. It is slightly harvested and it might be just over 15%. As we know, the growing season is upon us now, so it is important that the facility is up and running as soon as possible. The initial 2,000 tonnes will get product produced and made available to Irish growers.

Mr. Ger Breen:

We are in a period of change at the moment. There is other peat being produced by private producers in Ireland. That will supply a volume to meet that demand. We have another professional product, sod moss, that was harvested a couple of years ago as well. There is probably a volume there of approximately 20,000 cubes, which could help to meet a significant portion of the 2022 season.

Mr. Ger Breen:

The volume of peat we have remaining on our peatlands at the moment is approximately 950,000 tonnes. We have peat available to meet the date we mentioned previously, in respect of home residential heating. We will continue to manufacture briquettes at Derrinlough briquette factory.

Mr. Ger Breen:

There has been a drop of 400 to 450 employees and there has been a recruitment of 200 to 250 employees back into the company in that same period of time. Therefore, the net drop is in the region of 200 to 250.

Mr. Ger Breen:

As we have said, Bord na Móna is a very small player in the turf-cutting sector. If we look at turf cutting, we will see that the legal position is quite important. Perhaps I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Sonya Mallon, just to take the Deputy through-----

Mr. Ger Breen:

Like all companies, we have got to go by the legal advice that we get. Obviously, we need to adhere to the regulations that are in place. My understanding of the legal position is that Bord na Móna is very restricted in what it can do in this space.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No request has come to me yet from a local community.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna is always willing to sit down with our local communities.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Deputy Fitzmaurice to wait a minute because Ms Mallon wants to contribute. Perhaps she has some clarification on that last point.

Ms Sonya Mallon:

I thank the Chair and the Deputy. As Mr. Breen said, Bord na Móna will always be willing to sit down with the communities and discuss issues with them but from a legal perspective, as Mr. Breen has already highlighted, it is difficult to isolate land for individual use for turf-cutting. We are concerned with regard to circumvention of the environmental impact directive and the habitats directive, which was also confirmed in the judgment delivered by Ms Justice Phelan last week.

Mr. Ger Breen:

I will pass it over to my colleague, Dr. John MacNamara.

Dr. John MacNamara:

First, I am not expressly aware of that particular case. I am aware of other cases like that. It is important to point out that we have worked with individual growers even though the contract - I do not want to be too legalistic here as there is a lot of that going around today - would have been simply an offtake agreement with a price that was indexed over time. I am aware that there have been issues with getting contractors to areas. Let us be frank, Edenderry would not have been the obvious destination for a willow crop. I am aware that colleagues in the biomass procurement side of the house have specifically worked with contractors to get them on to those farms. I do not know if it is the same one but certainly in the west of the country where, as I said, it would not necessarily be the most-----

Dr. John MacNamara:

As I said, we have already engaged and we will continue to engage with growers. It is important to realise that the initial scheme would have been underpinned, not necessarily by Bord na Móna but by the Department. We went in there to provide an offtake long-term arrangement to give confidence to growers that there would be somebody there in relation to the final purchase of the material but, as I said, we will continue to engage on a one-to-one basis.

Mr. Ger Breen:

I am not familiar with the plastics contractor Deputy Fitzmaurice is referring to and I am not in a position to answer that question.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No.

Mr. Ger Breen:

It is up in December 2023. We have a planning application in progress at present and we are awaiting a decision from Offaly County Council.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am fairly disappointed. We have been sidelined by Ministers coming in but some of the answers that we have got, especially Deputies Carthy and Michael Collins earlier, have been very evasive. It does not sit right with me.

The opening statement said Bord na Móna has indicated to the Department officials that it is willing to assist in any way it can to alleviate the current situation in which the horticultural industry finds itself. Can Mr. Breen tell me precisely what Bord na Móna has done in this regard? I ask this because I have spoken to people over the past couple of months about it and there has been very little engagement as far as they are concerned. One man has told me that it is impossible to get someone on the phone about getting peat supplies.

Mr. Ger Breen:

There were three things we committed to in the joint working paper. As I said previously, we have now entered into a lease agreement with ICL in respect of the growing media mixing facility at the Cúil na Móna facility. We also have reached agreement to supply 2,000 tonnes of professional horticultural peat. Third, we will work with the independent expert and with ICL, and with other producers in this area, to establish whether there is other peat within our stocks that may be suitable for this industry but that work will be subject to quality approval.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Should it be the case that peat that is suitable for mixing is mixed by current suppliers to produce a growing medium that is of value to growers? Is Bord na Móna willing to supply this? Again, it reads as though we are back in January. Again, what Bord na Móna has actually done for the sector? I would also be interested to know what proportion of the just transition fund is being made available to the horticultural sector. How much has been made available to date?

Mr. Ger Breen:

The just transition fund is not administered by Bord na Móna, so I am not in a position to answer that question.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Right, okay. On a related matter, I have heard concerns over recent weeks that milled peat is being taken from Kildare to Athy, where it is being bagged for a UK multiple that is operating there. Will Mr. Breen confirm whether that is the case? Is some of that to do with the 2,000-tonne stock that Deputy Carthy and others have been speaking about?

Mr. Ger Breen:

No, the professional peat of 2,000 tonnes is not being moved to Athy. That, as I said, is earmarked for supply into the Coolnamona facility. The Kilberry facility manufactures products mainly for the Irish retail business, so there is peat of a non-professional grade being transported from our peatlands in Kildare to the Kilberry facility for supply into the Irish industry. Previously, the Kilberry facility used to supply products under the B&Q contract. However, that has stopped in recent months. There has been a very small volume of retail product supplied under the B&Q contract from Kilberry, but that is where we wanted to use spare bagging capacity at the Kilberry facility. That was mainly product that was non-peat based.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Is any of what is being bagged and shipped from Kildare to Athy being offered to Irish growers or to Irish people in the industry, or is it all going out of the country to the UK multiple, or is it going out of the country and coming back in to be sold to Irish growers?

Mr. Ger Breen:

No. The peat that is being supplied to the Kilberry facility is retail peat. It bagged peat that is being sold back into the hobby and garden sector. That is sold back to the Irish retail market.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is not being offered Irish growers.

Mr. Ger Breen:

It is not being offered. The professional growers require a particular grade of peat. It would be subject to quality checks. That peat we are supplying to the Kilberry facility would not be suitable to supply to the Irish professional growers.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I return to what I am being told, which is that it is impossible to get Bord na Móna on the phone. What is the situation there? What can be done to improve that for Irish growers? We are here now in March. I think it was Deputy Fitzmaurice who said that work needed to be done ASAP. It is nearly the growing season again. If our growers cannot get in contact with Bord na Móna in the first place, we run a massive risk of jobs being lost in an industry. It is a massive industry, and everybody agrees with that. What is the situation? What is the problem facing these suppliers, who are telling us they cannot even get through to Bord na Móna on the phone in this day and age?

Mr. Ger Breen:

To clarify the situation, Bord na Móna has been in correspondence with our customers for a long number of years. We informed them of the situation in 2020 or 2021. We ceased manufacturing products in the latter part of the summer in 2021. We stepped away from the industry. Given some of the challenges customers were facing, and Mr. McNamara was on the horticultural technical group, we have come back onto the playing pitch to see what we can do to address some of the challenges being faced by the growers. I have outlined the measures we have taken in recent weeks to alleviate some of those challenges being faced by the Irish growers. I am not aware of people being unable to contact us, but again we can take that away and we will look to engage with those professional growers. It is important to know that we have leased the facility out to a third party and it will be manufacturing the product for supply back into the marketplace.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I raise the issue because it is in Bord na Móna’s own opening statement: “the independent expert will also work with suppliers, Bord na Móna and growers to ascertain whether any other peat would be of interest or value to growers”. The growers are telling us they cannot even contact Bord na Móna to engage with it. As I have said, we are coming to a critical stage in the season. These conversations should have taken place months ago, not now nearing the end of the March. What assurances will Mr. Breen give that these suppliers and these growers will not be faced with the same problems they are telling us they are experiencing at the minute?

Mr. Ger Breen:

As I said previously, we will engage with the independent expert, once that is known, and we will engage with the professional growers. It is important to remember we will not be running the facility at Coolnamona. We have a relationship with ICL, so we can work with the professional growers and ICL to make whatever contributions are within remit with the professional growers.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I have to go to another meeting but I will try to come and get in again.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That is no problem. I call Deputy Leddin.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair and I welcome our guests today. I thank them for coming into the committee.

Some of my colleagues noted earlier that this is a sad story. I would like to put on the record that the work of Bord na Móna is not a sad story at all. It is a very positive story from recent years. The company has shown leadership and bravery in adopting its brown to green strategy. Notwithstanding the challenges, and there are challenges, nobody would pretend there are not because there certainly are, my colleagues have alluded to them, and it is only right they seek to explore the solutions to them, it should be acknowledged that Bord na Móna is one of the leading companies in the State in this significant and important transition we have to go through.

I commend the work by Mr. Breen and his colleagues and their efforts to capture carbon. He mentioned in his statement that 100 million tonnes is being locked in. That is the right thing to do. We should not seek to release that carbon. If we did, it would make it very difficult for every other sector. The right thing is to try to keep that carbon in the ground. Of course, it is 100 million tonnes, but it could increase as the biodiversity develops and as sequestration will naturally increase beyond 100 million tonnes. That figure is between five and ten times the annual emissions of the agriculture sector in Ireland. It is not at all an insignificant figure. It is very significant. We should not be blind to that. in doing that work, Bord na Móna is making huge inroads in restoring biodiversity. We have a biodiversity crisis as well as a climate crisis. In pursuing that strategy, Bord na Móna is addressing both the climate crisis and the biodiversity crisis, so it should be commended for that.

The challenges are clear. When we try to transition and make big changes, as we have to, challenges are going to arise. They are certainly doing so in the area of home heating, where the supply of peat for briquettes will come to an end, I think, in 2024. Of course there is a challenge there. There is a challenge in power generation because the power stations have closed. Every day we must address how we will provide the power this country needs. To be fair to Bord na Móna, it is a leader in that area as well. The company has done extraordinary work in developing its renewable energy potential. In closing its peat-fired stations, it has sought to address the energy deficit and it has driven on with the development of wind, solar and, more recently, with the very interesting plan to produce green hydrogen. I say fair play to Bord na Móna

It is a leader in this area. The more renewables we can deliver, then the lower the cost of energy to consumers. We are not going back to a situation where we generate electricity from burning peat and it is a not a good way to do so.

Horticulture is the third challenge and it has taken up most of this discussion. There are solutions for home heating such as retrofitting that reduces the need for energy in people's homes. Retrofitting is expensive work but the State can do it in the timeframe in which transition happens. Horticulture is a more difficult task and I welcome the statement that Bord na Móna is working with an independent expert. I have a lot of faith in Bord na Móna and believe it will do everything that it can to get through the difficulties that will exist for some time to come. I commend Bord na Móna on its work, leadership and bravery in stepping into a very difficult space.

I welcome the agreement between Bord na Móna and ICL. It is a sign that Bord na Móna seeks to solve a very difficult problem. I understand that it might be premature for the delegation to give me a good answer to my following questions given that we are at the coalface of research. What volume of horticultural peat at the suitable grade might be produced in the coming years? Does Bord na Móna think that it will lead to the challenge in the horticultural sector, particularly in the mushroom sector, being resolved? What is the timeframe for the output of this research and production?

Mr. Ger Breen:

To which raw material does the Deputy refer?

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I mean horticultural peat. Am I correct to say that Bord na Móna has reached an agreement with ICL to develop a new media?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes. ICL has done a lot of research in this space and is an expert. ICL has made significant investment in wood fibre technology and has significant volume available to meet the demands of the Irish market. It is a question of taking the customers in Ireland on a transition over a period where they reduce the percentage of peat that is in the growing media product. By ICL entering into an arrangement with Bord na Móna it gives a period in which customers can move as opposed to having to look for sudden changes. To be fair to professional growers, one can purchase a growing media product but one will only know how good the ready-made compost is after sowing plants and seeing the outcome. It is important that they have confidence that the products they purchase gives a good crop yield.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Will the agreement last three years?

Mr. Ger Breen:

The agreement will last for an initial period of three years, yes.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Will that primarily be research and have we reached the point where we can talk about ramping up output?

Mr. Ger Breen:

No. The facility is capable of meeting the full demand in the Irish market but there is no restriction on the ability of the plant. It is a question of sourcing the raw materials and bringing customers on a transition journey. There are no restrictions from a plant perspective.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for their insight. I commend Bord na Móna for going into a very difficult space and we need to see that leadership across the State. Well done.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. My questions are based on the opening statement. We are where we are but I want to know how we got here.

The answer to every question at the moment is the High Court ruling. Based on the High Court ruling and the need for planning permission, Bord na Móna made the decision not to seek planning permission, accepted the ruling, waved the white flag immediately and in a very short space of time decided to suspend peat production completely. Who made that decision in Bord na Móna? Why was no regard given to a just transition or, indeed, any transition for the horticultural growers, the farmers who use peat for bedding and, indeed, Bord na Móna's supply of briquettes that is due to cease in 2023 or 2024? What if Bord na Móna had sought planning permission? Bord na Móna played a major role the last time there was an emergency. In fact, we do not use the word wars but call them emergencies and we are very close to another emergency now. In such circumstances had Bord na Móna proceeded to seek planning permission, as directed by the High Court, it could well be in a position now to help out. As we speak, President Biden is en routeto Brussels; he may even have arrived. From what I hear on the American media he wants to persuade the Europeans to place a full embargo on Russian oil and gas. If that were to happen Bord na Móna would have a major role in exceptional times but it has cut itself out of such a possibility. Who made the decision to walk off the pitch at the first hurdle?

Mr. Ger Breen:

We did not wave a white flag immediately. We did enter into the planning process. My colleague, Ms Mallon, will respond to the questions.

Ms Sonya Mallon:

As Mr. Breen said, all of this culminated, and as we have already spoken about it at the committee, in the 2019 High Court decision but after that decision was made Bord na Móna applied for planning permission. The process requires a three-step process whereby one must apply for leave for substitute consent. Substitute consent then follows once leave is granted and then planning permission for peat extraction activity is the third step.

In December 2019, Bord na Móna made applications and applied for leave for substitute consent. Leave was granted in April 2020 for the substitute consent leave applications. That leave was subsequently challenged in the High Court and the High Court quashed our leave applications on 7 May 2021. By that time, in June 2020, we had already made applications to An Bord Pleanála on foot of the leave that we had been granted initially. The successful challenge to the leave stage meant that those applications had to be withdrawn. As Mr. Breen has said, that decision was ultimately made for Bord na Móna in terms of the quashing of the leave applications for substitute consent.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Did Bord na Móna ever consider appealing to a higher court?

Ms Sonya Mallon:

At the time the decision was considered by management with Bord na Móna. A decision was made not to appeal that because these challenges and the planning system, as I am sure the Senator and committee are aware, are very difficult to navigate and there are numerous judicial review challenges pending in the courts.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is a derogation for sites below 30 ha once they pass a screening exercise. Has Bord na Móna conducted or is it in the process of doing screening exercises on its smaller holdings with a view to providing a just transition for the horticultural sector or similar sectors?

Ms Sonya Mallon:

I will answer that question and perhaps Mr. Breen will contribute as required. My understanding is Bord na Móna does not hold any individual boglands of less than 30 ha. No screening exercises have been carried out to date.

It is also relevant that we hold integrated pollution control, IPC, licences across the majority of the land bank held by Bord na Móna. Those licences are required for landholdings above 50 ha. No screening exercises have been undertaken because we do not have isolated boglands of less than 30 ha.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will pose a hypothetical situation I hope we will never see. If there were a derogation occasioned by the war and the Government requested Bord na Móna to increase its briquette production, would it be in a position to do it? Forget about the High Court. At times like this, rules can change quickly. It was mentioned earlier that Bord na Móna is auctioning off machinery. If the situation I outlined were to arise and the Government were to tell us we will be without oil and gas next winter and need a certain tonnage of briquettes, would Bord na Móna be in a position to meet that challenge?

Mr. Ger Breen:

We are maximising our briquette production as we speak. Derrinlough is running on a 24-7 basis. There is no scope to increase that capacity. We are at maximum briquette production at the moment.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is the case until Bord na Móna comes to the end of its peat resources. I am talking about additional peat.

Mr. Ger Breen:

The Senator is referring to the time post 2024. We live in challenging times. If the Government were to present that situation to us, we would consider it.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Would Bord na Móna have the necessary capability?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I am conscious of the planning requirements, which are quite complex. Bord na Móna has taken a position on these matters in the past two years. On the basis of the decision that was made within the past week, our position has not changed.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The opening statement mentioned Bord na Móna's movement into renewable energy and bog re-wetting. With regard to re-wetting and carbon storage, how far advanced are the initial projects Bord na Móna is proposing to re-wet? What communication has the company had with neighbouring landholders? What process of communication has there been with neighbouring landholders or property holders in areas with bogs that Bord na Móna has started the process of re-wetting?

Mr. Ger Breen:

In 2021, we have rehabilitated approximately 8,000 ha, which is a great reflection on the employees of Bord na Móna. This is a large project in terms of the enablement and training required. Our employees' adaptation to the programme has been tremendous. We carry out a rehabilitation plan in respect of each specific peatland and then engage with stakeholders in each local community. Nineteen plans were done for the 2021 season. For the 2022 season, we have an additional 20 plans, details of which are being communicated to local communities at the moment. There is extensive stakeholder engagement in respect of each specific plan. We have also allowed a number of site visits by various groups over the past year to show them the work that is done on the ground.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Breen mentions community engagement, does that include engagement with individual land or site owners adjacent to the bog? Does that mean meeting them individually?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask for two short points of clarification on some remarks Deputy Leddin made. He welcomed the fact Bord na Móna is working with an independent expert. For clarification of our earlier engagement, am I correct in saying our guests have not, in fact, interacted with the independent expert and do not know whether an independent expert has been appointed yet?

Mr. Ger Breen:

That is correct. We are waiting for the independent expert to be appointed and to engage with us.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Following on from another remark made by Deputy Leddin, am I correct that none of the peat Bord na Móna has in stock is suitable for the needs of the mushroom industry?

Mr. Ger Breen:

That is correct.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There has been no engagement with an independent expert. We have not yet had the opportunity to ask the Minister or the Ministers of State when that expert will be appointed. Notwithstanding that, Bord na Móna has engaged on the contract with ICL, as was mentioned.

Our guests mentioned ICL would also be sourcing peat from private sources other than Bord na Móna. It was indicated such peat would be sourced domestically. Are our guests aware of any bog, whether less than 30 ha in size or not, that has a section 5 exemption from planning permission on the basis of Ms Justice Phelan's judgment?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I am not aware of any such bog.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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From where does Mr. Breen suspect ICL will be sourcing peat, on top of the Bord na Móna stockpiles?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I do not know the specifics. There are a number of private producers that may have some stock and there may be some individuals who will seek to get the appropriate consents to harvest peat in 2022.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I find that quite unbelievable, as a statement. Is Mr. Breen still satisfied with his earlier remarks to the effect he does not believe ICL will be importing peat for the plant at Coolnamona? Is it in fact the case that we will see an increase in the number of ships landing in Belfast and elsewhere each week? Was that considered in the decision-making at all?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I cannot answer for ICL and whether it will import peat. For clarification, I did not say previously ICL would not be importing peat.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is Mr. Breen's position? Does he believe ICL will be importing peat?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I do not know for sure whether it will be.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In that case, whether ICL will import peat did not play a part in Bord na Móna's decision when reaching an agreement with ICL.

Mr. Ger Breen:

It was not. We focused on making sure we had the machinery available and ensuring any product manufactured at the facility at Coolnamona would be made available for the Irish market only. We did not discuss the sourcing of products. I did not get into the specifics because I presume, like most players at the moment, people are still working through their procurement plans and considering where they will source products for the coming year.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to return to the stockpile of 200,000 tonnes of high-grade peat. I do not have the same knowledge as Deputy Fitzmaurice and others on this matter so excuse me if the questions seem naive. Could our guests give an explanation as to why or how 2,000 tonnes of peat would be extracted and left sitting there?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I think initially the Deputy mentioned a figure of 200,000 tonnes. For clarification, it is 2,000 tonnes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My apologies.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna traditionally harvested peat during the summer months, between May and September, because we needed the wind and the sun to dry the peat and reduce the moisture content. We would traditionally have stockpiled peat on the peatlands.

The position on horticultural peat was slightly different in that what we harvested in a particular year was normally sold within 12 to 15 months. Therefore, we do not have as high a stock of horticultural peat. We would harvest the peat, stockpile it, cover it and transport it at a later date.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In what years were the stockpiled peat harvested?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I would not have that specific information to hand.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about the past five years?

Mr. Ger Breen:

I would say so.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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But it could be up to five years ago.

Mr. Ger Breen:

I would not have the specific information on that. It was within the five-year period.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps Mr. Breen will provide us with a written response on the years in which the peat was extracted.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes. We have been running down our stockpiles. There was an element of consolidation of the smaller mounds or stockpiles that were referred to. We would capture the information in the year of harvest as the stock mound is created, but as we reduce our stocks there has been an element of stock consolidation in the peatlands.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Indeed. Bord na Móna has been diminishing its stockpile. It was exporting over 250 kilotonnes per year up to 2020. How much of this peat would have gone to its subsidiaries in the UK or elsewhere?

Mr. Ger Breen:

The peat supplied to a subsidiary in the UK is retail-grade peat; it is not professional peat. The peat being supplied would not be suitable for the professional growers in Ireland.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know that, but that does not answer the question I asked. How much of the 250,000 tonnes per annum went to Bord na Móna’s subsidiaries?

Mr. Ger Breen:

About 75,000 tonnes went to the UK subsidiary. The 252,000 tonnes to which the Deputy referred relates to professional-grade peat as opposed to retail peat, so we are not comparing like with like.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am referring to the letter we received from Mr. Breen. I cannot see a date on it. It states the horticultural peat exported amounted to 252,000 tonnes per annum in the years up to 2020. Mr. Breen is saying additional lower-grade peat was also exported by Bord na Móna in those years.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Only to the UK subsidiary.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was the tonnage?

Mr. Ger Breen:

That is the 75,000 tonnes I have referred to.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So the figure is 327,000 tonnes.

With regard to the stockpile that has been in place for up to five years, I am trying to get my head around the nature of the mound. Mr. Breen mentioned the peat is in a single location. Is it in windrows side by side or is it a big pile of dung? Is it stored in a particular way?

Mr. Ger Breen:

It is not a large piece of dung or in windrows. It is the result of the consolidation of smaller stockpiles into one. For us to be able to move in the rail system to remove peat economically, we need the stockpile to be of a certain size.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I presume diggers are required.

Mr. Ger Breen:

No. We just need excavators to load the wagons from the stockpile.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For the uninitiated, what is the difference between an excavator and a digger?

Mr. Ger Breen:

The excavator would sit on top of the stockpile to remove it as opposed to being on the ground.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I presume that as the pile gets smaller, the excavator gets to the point where it would be sitting in the same position that a digger would be.

Mr. Ger Breen:

It moves back along the stockpile. Obviously, when it gets to the very end of it, it comes back down to the ground.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry I am repeating myself on this but it is important. Is Mr. Breen absolutely satisfied that planning permission will not be required for the extraction of the stock?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Breen want to pass any comment?

Mr. Ger Breen:

Oweninny Power DAC is a joint venture of the ESB and Bord na Móna, as outlined by the Deputy. It has engaged Roadbridge as a contractor for the civil works associated with the project. The Oweninny project team is aware of the reported issues with Roadbridge. A receiver has been appointed to Roadbridge. Given that a receiver has been appointed, it is not appropriate for the representatives of Oweninny Power DAC to meet any delegations at this time. We obviously have got to work through the situation.

Mr. Ger Breen:

I will take on board the message has Deputy has given us and take it back to the project team.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair for letting me back in. I have a quick question but the representatives can take as long as they need to answer it. Are they aware of illegal extraction taking place on Bord na Móna bogs? If they aware of it, are they doing anything about it? What can be done about it? If others see illegal extraction happening on Bord na Móna lands, what can they do about it? The representatives might advise us.

Mr. Ger Breen:

Bord na Móna wrote to a number of contractors and individuals last year in respect of the extraction of private turf. There was some activity on our peatlands last year. We have taken some measures in recent times to address that particular situation. It is important to remember there are people with turbary rights on Bord na Móna lands, which makes them of a different distinction as regards extraction of turf. Does Ms Mallon want to comment on that?

Ms Sonya Mallon:

I thank Deputy Leddin for the query. As Mr. Breen said, we took some measures last year to interact with a number of third parties who had been cutting on Bord na Móna lands. A number of classes of third parties cut on those lands. As Mr. Breen said, there are people who hold rights of turbary, which are property rights, registered and unregistered, on Bord na Móna lands. Those parties are entitled to exercise those property rights.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Of course. I appreciate that answer. If people in the community are aware of illegal extraction, is Bord na Móna the first port of call or is there any other way they can notify the authorities about that? Is it the local authority? Is it a planning issue?

Ms Sonya Mallon:

In circumstances where people have noticed illegal extraction, the appropriate body to report that to is the local authority.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We have had a very extensive debate. As can be gathered, there is serious concern in the room about different issues. I ask the representatives to keep us updated regarding Deputy Fitzmaurice's question about farmers who are growing willow and the serious difficulty in which they find themselves. I also ask for communication with those farmers to try to sort out their difficulties because they most definitely went into those projects in good faith. If they are on unsuitable land, they need assistance to get them back on an even keel. We urge Bord na Móna to communicate with those farmers, and it is to be hoped their issues can be resolved satisfactorily.

I ask the representatives to recognise we are in very changed times and circumstances. The environment for what was appropriate six months ago has changed dramatically. We have to ensure we do all we possibly can to keep our economy sustainable. We have a couple of native industries that are finding themselves under severe pressure. Deputy Carthy referred to the mushroom industry, which operates under an extremely tight margin. The solution is not within the remit of Bord na Móna. It is up to us as policymakers and legislators to make sure we get a solution fast to ensure the future viability of these industries. The fuel crisis and the energy crisis will need direction at a political level but we have to ensure our own security is paramount at all times.

I thank the representatives for coming before the committee, attending and participating. The next public meeting of the committee will take place at 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 March. We will explore technologies and opportunities that may exist in the effort to reduce emissions in the agricultural sector. The witnesses will be from two commercial entities and an academic from Dublin City University.