Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 15 June 2017
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am chairing the meeting because the Chairman is otherwise engaged.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will have to put up with you.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. She might have to put up with me next Tuesday also because it looks like that the Chairman will not be here that day either. Deputy David Cullinane has agreed to chair the meeting from 10.45 a.m. My mother has gone to hospital.
We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness at the committee. He is accompanied by Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit. Apologies have been received from Deputies Josepha Madigan and Alan Farrell.
Are the minutes of the meetings of 31 May and 1 June agreed to? Agreed.
There are three categories of correspondence. Category A is correspondence for today's meeting. Nos. 583A(1), 583A(2), 583A(3) and 587A are the HSE's briefing documents and opening statements.
Category B is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers as a follow-up to previous meetings. No. 547B is correspondence, dated 30 May 2017, from the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality providing information requested by the committee following the meeting on 11 May. The correspondence includes information on payroll overpayments; Mahon report recommendations; mental health supports, including counselling services, provided in direct provision centres; the policy on canvassing in direct provision centres; and the pilot third level education project for residents in direct provision centres. Is the correspondence noted?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is this the extra information for which we asked ?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. The correspondence will be noted and published.
Nos. 553 and 576B are correspondence, dated 30 May 2017 and 9 June 2017, from Mr. Noel Waters, Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, providing follow-up information requested by the committee, particularly on the process followed by gardaí when opening bank accounts. There was a short discussion on the matter yesterday. The correspondence will be noted and published.
No. 554B is correspondence, dated 30 May 2017, from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, providing the information requested by the committee on the accommodation requirements of Caranua.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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May I look at the document for a moment?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have read it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is the Deputy happy?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not, but I have read it and I am happy that we have received it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is the Deputy happy that she has read it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No. 555B is correspondence, dated 1 June 2017, from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, providing the follow-up information requested by the committee following its meeting on 12 May on the transfer status of 15 properties being transferred to the State from the Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy. Is the correspondence noted and may it be published?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When we received the list, it was suggested the properties had been transferred as part of the handover. However, when we asked a further question, we found out that some properties had yet to be fully transferred. For example, the St. Anne's Lenaboy property in the Taylor's Hill district of Galway, with which I am familiar, has not been handed over. It is mentioned at the bottom of the document. The last list we received suggested it had been handed over in 2009. Where we do we go now if we do not keep chasing it? We are being given pieces of information.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There is not full clarity.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will write to ask that the dates on which all of the properties were transferred be published.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We need to know the dates on which they will be transferred. They have not been-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will look for the proposed dates for the transfer of each of the properties.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The property I have mentioned is empty and deteriorating on a daily basis. We asked for it to be given to the city of Galway, but that is a separate story.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will write to ask for the dates on which it is proposed that the properties will be transferred. We will also ask whether they are in use. We will get all of the information and collate it.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for being late. I would like to pick up on Deputy Catherine Connolly's important point about the deterioration of buildings that are lying idle. A former primary school in Trim, County Meath has been transferred to the Department of Education and Skills, but nothing is happening. The property is to be used by the education and training board for the Educate Together school in Trim which is operating from a golf club four miles outside the town. I have raised the issue in the Dáil with the Minister for Education and Skills. It has now been discovered that the cost of fitting out the school exceeds what it was thought it would be. The children are staying in the golf club on the Kildalkey Road. Deputy Catherine Connolly's point is extremely well made. There is no point in having a scenario in which property deteriorates before it is transferred to the extent that it is worth absolutely nothing to anybody. The building control unit in the Department that analyses these properties does not provide a proper costing of what is required to make schools habitable for children when they are transferred. One part of the Department is not speaking to another.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is quite obvious.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It is scandalous.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will ask for the dates on which it is proposed to transfer the properties and information on whether they are occupied and their status.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dún Laoghaire is one that might be in use. Are there impediments to making the investments needed if there is no clear title? It is possible that, in the absence of a clear title, a Department will not fund an upgrade that is needed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will ask that question also.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
If the committee were able to discover the basis or nature of the title, perhaps it might be able to determine whether the title is clean. In a number of cases transfers have been held up pending resolution of the issue of proper title. A number of properties have been rejected and substituted where information on proper title has not been or cannot be provided.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will ask those four questions.
No. 562B is correspondence, dated 7 June 2017, from Bord na gCon, including the minutes of the meetings of the national greyhound consultative forum in March, July and November 2016 and a summary of the points made during the initial consultation on the question of incentivising ownership. Is the correspondence noted?
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to see this morning that an agreement has been reached to race again.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is good to see, leaving aside anything else that has been discussed here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is good to see that there is racing again.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We all have reservations about the board.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the barking mad period over?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not, but there is racing again in Dublin. The barking mad period will continue-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It will.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----while we have the evidence we heard on two occasions.
The correspondence, dated 2 June 2017, from Mr. Ken Ruane, head of legal affairs in An Garda Síochána, includes five emails sent to the chief administration officer in 2015. This information was requested by the committee on 31 May. Is this correspondence noted? I think we dealt with the matter yesterday and will deal with it again next Tuesday.
No. 565B is correspondence, dated 7 June 2017, from Mr. Ed Sibley, director of credit institution supervision in the Central Bank, in response to the committee's request for further information on the bank's review of certain allegations about an Irish credit institution that was referred to in email correspondence on 27 September 2016 and to queries regarding Bank of Ireland collateral arrangements. The correspondence will be noted and published.
No. 568B, is correspondence, dated 2 June 2017, from Professor Patrick O'Shea, President of University College Cork, UCC, enclosing trust fund financial statements for 2014 and 2015. This information about the non-consolidation of trust fund accounts was requested by the committee. It is noted.
No. 574B, is correspondence, dated 8 June 2017, from the same Patrick O'Shea, President of UCC, and Catherine Day, chairperson of the UCC governing body, in relation to UCC's acquisition of the Irish Management Institute and the "Morning Ireland" programme on 26 May 2017. This is noted. The president will be before the committee on 22 June.
No. 575B, is correspondence, dated 9 June 2017, from An Garda Síochána about the information requested from the committee at the meeting of 31 May 2017 regarding the interim audit of financial controls at the Garda College, Templemore. This is noted.
No. 578B, is correspondence, dated 9 June 2017, from Graham Love, chief executive, Higher Education Authority, HEA, regarding the HEA review of the spin out and sale of FeedHenry and other spin-out companies from the Telecommunications Software and Systems Group. The terms of reference for the proposed external review are enclosed. This is noted.
No. 585B, is correspondence, dated 13 June 2017, from Noel Waters, Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, with follow-ups from the meeting of 31 May 2017 with members of management at An Garda Síochána. This is noted.
No. 588B, is correspondence, dated 14 June 2017, from the Health Service Executive, HSE, with clarification points on the Grace case. This will be covered in the first part of our meeting today.
Category C is correspondence from or relating to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. 529C is carried over from the meeting on 1 June 2017, also Nos. 556C, dated 31 May 2017, from Deputy Catherine Murphy and 572C, dated 25 May 2017.
There is correspondence, dated 11 May 2017, from an individual regarding matters relating to a protected disclosure to the Irish Prison Service. The individual has indicated he has received an apology from the director general of the Irish Prison Service. He made a recommendation to the Irish Prison Service to appoint a protected disclosures manager and has asked the committee to support his recommendation, to support persons making protected disclosures, and to summon the director general of the Irish Prison Service to explain why it would appoint a judge to conduct a review and then ignore the judge’s findings. We will probably have to consider this again, but for the time being I propose we request a response from the Irish Prison Service regarding the recommendation to appoint a protected disclosures manager. I request an update from the Irish Prison Service regarding the implementation of the review mentioned, and we might return to this. I presume many members of the committee are receiving correspondence from this individual. I certainly have. Some of the allegations are very serious. We will ask for an update on these two matters and will follow up on them later. It is worthy of our attention.
No. 549C is correspondence, dated 29 May 2017, from an individual writing on behalf of a children and youth action based group in Dublin’s north inner city regarding the use of public funds for youth services in the area. The group wrote to Deputy McDonald in 2015. This is a policy matter not within the remit of the committee and I propose the correspondence be referred to the relevant sectoral committee, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 550C is correspondence, dated 28 May 2017, addressed to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and copied to the committee concerning a letter sent to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, responsible for the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, regarding an audit of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, ISME, in 2016. We will note that.
No. 551C is correspondence, dated 26 May 2017, from an individual making comments relating to greed and a lack of accountability in the public sector. That is noted.
No. 552C is correspondence, dated 30 May 2017, from an individual relating to procurement processes in respect of the Eircode system. The letter alleges the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and the Environment was misled by An Post. An Post is not within the remit of this committee so I propose we refer this correspondence to the communications committee which may wish to proceed and consider the matter further. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 557C is correspondence, dated 31 May 2017, from Deputy Catherine Murphy enclosing an email from an individual regarding the appointment process for a coroner in south and east Kerry. The appointment of coroners is the responsibility of local authorities, but I propose to refer the matter to the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government for a response. Is that agreed? Agreed. The individual obviously had a grievance about the process.
No. 559C is correspondence, dated 29 May 2017, from the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform providing an update about a minute of the Minister following publication of a review of the Courts Service Spectrum growth fund. The matter is more relevant to the Courts Service which will be before the committee on 13 July. I suggest we make the Courts Service aware that this matter will be discussed on the day. We will also send a copy to the individual who raised the matter. This is noted.
No. 564C is correspondence, dated 6 June 2017, from the whistleblower in the Grace case who met the committee on 25 May 2017, enclosing a note about the matters discussed at that meeting. This is noted. A further note was received very late last night. Members will need time to consider the latest item, and if there are matters arising that we need to put to the HSE, we will put them in writing based on the letter we received. It is a fairly detailed letter and we certainly need time to consider it. I presume people will raise elements of it here today.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It has relevance to today's meeting. I just skimmed it but maybe we should take a few minutes to read it before today's meeting.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I agree. We will do that. The HSE does not have it either so maybe we will give time to everyone to consider it for a few minutes. We will get copies printed and give some to the witnesses and to committee members and we will take ten minutes to consider it. We know that the witnesses cannot be 100% comprehensive about this.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We could read it in the first instance. We are raising issues with witnesses and they want more time to consider it. That is no problem. That is due process but we could read it in the first instance to inform our questions.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have no problem with that. We will get them printed and let everyone read them. Do we allow the HSE have a copy of it now as well?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Fair is fair.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will give the witnesses copies of it but they will not be able to respond in detail to some of the issues in it. It is important that everyone read it. We will take time to read it when we finish dealing with the correspondence.
No. 566C is correspondence, dated 7 June 2017, from the chairman of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, stating that it will engage with the commission of investigation into the sale of Project Eagle and that no information given to the committee in their responses was wrong. This is noted.
No. 567C is correspondence, dated 7 June 2017, from Deputy Catherine Connolly regarding queries in respect of the overall settlement in the Grace case. These questions were forwarded to the HSE and it is expected they will be responded to as part of today’s meeting. That is noted.
No. 569C is correspondence, dated 17 May 2017, from an individual relating to the ownership of Dundalk greyhound track and Bord na gCon grants for the track and Horse Racing Ireland grants for an all-weather horse racing track. This is a very interesting note. I propose we write to Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland to request clarity and information on the provision of grants to Dundalk greyhound track. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 570C is anonymous correspondence, dated 29 May 2017, about the building of a boat on school premises in Carraroe, County Galway. We will refer this to the Department of Education and Skills to request a response. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 571C is correspondence, dated 26 May 2017, from an individual alleging that the committee was misled by the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills in respect of the legal advice obtained by the County Leitrim Vocational Educational Committee, VEC. The individual previously wrote to the committee and the correspondence was forwarded to the Department requesting a response on 13 April 2017. We await a response and the secretariat will follow that up. This is noted.
No. 573C is correspondence, dated 30 May 2017, from Deputy Thomas Broughan. It relates to the PARC Road Safety Group's analysis of replies to parliamentary questions from the Deputy by the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality. The analysis relates to information on offences of holding a mobile phone while driving, for speeding and for drink-driving. We will note that.
No. 577C is correspondence, dated 9 June 2017, from Noel Waters, Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, confirming the attendance of officials for yesterday's meeting. We will note that.
Nos. 579C, 580C, 581C and 582C include correspondence to Deputy Cullinane - 579C - dated 30 May 2017. It is from a councillor in Cavan County Council regarding the arrangements for an office lease for Cavan Vocational Education Committee, VEC. The additional correspondence, namely, Nos. 580C, 581C and 582C, supports the councillor's request for the matter to be reviewed. I propose to write to the Department of Education and Skills to request a response in the first instance. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, that is fair enough. I will now display on the screen the statements and accounts received since the previous meeting.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could I ask one further question? We were supposed to get a document from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about wards of court. Did we receive that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, it was No. 559C.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right. I did not pick up on that. Is the issue on our work programme to follow up on it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Department is in on 13 July – a great date, as it is my birthday – in addition to the Department of Justice and Equality.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We can deal with it then. The Courts Service, the Garda Commissioner and the Department of Justice and Equality are also in that day. That will be a long day.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will move on to the statements and accounts received since the previous meeting. Five accounts and statements received are shown on the screens. They include those of the HSE, which is before us today. The Insolvency Service of Ireland received a clear audit opinion. Sport Ireland also got a clear audit opinion. The National Asset Management Agency got a clear audit opinion but attention was drawn to disclosures by NAMA of non-competitive procurement in 2016 to the value of €3.5 million. Are there any notes on that?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I am just drawing attention to the fact that NAMA is disclosing that information.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we get a note on it?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
There is quite a bit of detail in the financial statements themselves about the make-up of that and the circumstances whereby NAMA did not comply with procurement. I suggest that the information is in the SIFC.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, that is fair enough. The HSE got a clear audit opinion. Attention was drawn to disclosures by the HSE regarding a significant level of non-competitive procurement. There was a lack of evidence of competitive procurement in relation to 49% by value of a sample of payments worth €30.8 million. That is quite significant.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will ask later on why it is a recurring problem. Is it consistent?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does it relate to a particular sector or geographic area or is it across the board?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Which region is the worst?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When the Comptroller and Auditor General said the systems are dispersed, does he mean geographically around the country?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So they could have a provider generally that they are just picking.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is the danger for every agency when procurement is not being complied with.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a system in place for the HSE in relation to eProcurement?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In the local government system in the UK what they did was have an amalgamation and they used a collaborative approach. They were different organisations. This is one organisation. That is the point I am making, not just about eTenders but about-----
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The Office of Government Procurement also encourages collaborative arrangements. Within the health sector there are specific types of procurement that would not be generally required by any other public sector body, so there would be special collaborative arrangements put in place, or at least that is the intention, in the provision of health products.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There was also a reference to inadequate monitoring and oversight of grants to an outside agency. We all know about that. We will be discussing that later on today as well. There was a clear audit opinion on the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland.
We will now deal with the work programme. We had a brief discussion about this yesterday. Today, we have the HSE. Next Tuesday, we have An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality and the Policing Authority later on. On Thursday, 22 June, we have third level institutions, namely, the HEA and Department of Education and Skills, the University of Limerick, UL, and University College Cork, UCC. At 11 a.m. on that day we will have the Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, and the Cork Institute of Technology, CIT. I suggest we will do well to meet that timetable. On Thursday, 29 June, we have a date in the diary to fill. We will probably need it for the reports. On Thursday, 6 July we have the Department of Finance and then the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That will be interesting given the joining of those Ministries. On 13 July, we have the Garda Síochána and the Courts Service in with us. We have a date in the diary that we have kept free and we need that for reports.
We will move on to any other business. Is there any other business?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to be clear that we will get the information relating to yesterday's hearings. I did ask for two specific reports, one from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s office and one from An Garda Síochána relating to reporting structures to the Comptroller and Auditor General’s office within An Garda Síochána. I want to know who is responsible for what and what is the line management responsibility when information about irregular practices is raised by an individual.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, that is fine. I made a number of requests for information as well. What will happen is an email will be sent out tomorrow with all the requests, and if anyone has any issues, he or she should respond to it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is because a lot of requests were made that I wish to make sure that one is included.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, of course. I made a lot of requests too. In terms of next Tuesday's meeting, an issue arose about one of the witnesses not attending yesterday. We had agreed that the Garda Commissioner, with relevant clerical staff, would be here on Tuesday. At a previous meeting we agreed to bring the Commissioner in on her own with appropriate staff. Assistant Commissioner Twomey was not able to make it yesterday and the question is whether we want to bring him in for 45 minutes in advance of the Commissioner’s appearance.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not see any need.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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He is party to a discussion on the 27th but I think we have enough information about what happened on the 27th.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We could ask him by means of written correspondence if we need to get information.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, okay. Is it agreed that we do not want him to attend?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Agreed. The meeting on Tuesday will be with the Commissioner on her own with the appropriate clerical staff only.
Is there any other business? If there is not, we will, as we agreed earlier, take some time to read the correspondence that has just come in. Mr. Tony O'Brien, director general of the Health Service Executive has been given the correspondence but said he cannot be expected to answer questions on this today. He was asked to provide clarification on issues raised but the HSE refused to take this today. I presume it will respond in writing. Mr. O'Brien has said he does not have the time to prepare. I suggest we take time to read it as it will inform the thought process for asking questions. We will go through the meeting as normal and following that we can write to Mr. O'Brien based on this. Is that agreed?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a time limit to this part of the meeting? I believe it was agreed to be an hour.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Are we sticking to that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. Is that agreed? I do not foresee a huge attendance. We should be able to stick to it pretty easily.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is the celebrations.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will deal with the matter for the first hour and the rest of the time will go to the normal HSE business.