Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for his opening remarks. I look forward to working with him as Chairman of this committee and with its members. I thank him for his good wishes and wish him the very best of luck as Chairman of this important committee. I welcome my first opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, Trade and Defence, to consider the 2016 Revised Estimates for Votes 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence and I look forward to working with it on defence matters.

I understand that the committee does not want a lengthy opening statement, so I will just set out the overall position before discussing the detail of the two Votes. The defence sector is made up of two Votes, namely, Vote 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence. The high level goal of both the defence and Army pension Votes is to provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government. Accordingly, defence sector outputs are delivered under a single programme in each Vote.

The combined estimates for defence and Army pensions for 2016 provides for gross expenditure of €906 million. Of that, €682 million is allocated to Vote 36 - Defence, with more than 72% of the defence Vote going towards providing for pay and allowances. The remaining non-pay allocation provides mainly for the renewal and maintenance of essential equipment, infrastructure and operational costs.

The Army pensions Vote makes provision for retired pay, pensions, allowances and gratuities payable to or in respect of former members of the Defence Forces. The 2016 estimate provides a gross sum of €224 million for the Army pensions Vote. More than €214 million of this allocation covers expenditure on all superannuation benefits for former members of the Permanent Defence Force and their dependants. It is primarily demand-driven and non-discretionary.

Having set out the financial parameters of both Votes, I would now like to outline some of the main features of the single programme on the defence Vote entitled Defence Policy and Support, Military Capabilities and Operational Outputs. To allow the defence organisation to deliver effectively on its outputs and undertake the tasks laid down by Government at home and overseas, an appropriately resourced Department of Defence and Defence Forces are required. In this regard, the 2016 defence pay and allowances allocation of €493 million will provide for a Permanent Defence Force strength of up to 9,500. In addition, it will provide for the pay and allowances of 550 civilian employees, 350 civil servants, 18 chaplains and 14 Army nurses.

There has been continuous recruitment over the past few years with an average of more than 475 taken on each year since 2011. In 2016, to the end of May, a total of 241 general service recruits have been inducted and there are plans in place to take on a total of 600 such recruits this year, with a further 850 planned for 2017. In addition to general service recruitment, 75 cadets and 26 Air Corps apprentices are also scheduled to be inducted later this year.

The defence non-pay allocation comprises both current and capital expenditure elements. The current expenditure non-pay allocation of some €121 million provides mainly for essential and ongoing Defence Forces standing and operational costs such as utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training. The capital expenditure allocation of €68 million provides for the necessary procurement and upgrading of defensive equipment and infrastructure.

The capital investment programme published last year allocated €437 million to defence over the period 2016 to 2021. This has allowed defence to identify and prioritise the investment of capital expenditure funds across the Army, Naval Service and the Air Corps over the coming years. The White Paper on Defence indicates the main equipment priorities in this regard. A number of specific spending decisions are still at the planning stages but projects under active consideration include the acquisition of armoured logistical vehicles for overseas missions; the further development of the armoured personnel carrier fleet; the replacement of Air Corps aircraft; and the replacement of Naval vessels in the Naval Service flotilla.

I am delighted to inform members that a contract has recently been signed with Babcock International for the provision of a fourth ship under the Naval vessel replacement programme, at a cost of €67 million. This represents excellent value and will be of major benefit to the State and a further significant enhancement of defence capabilities. Initial payments under this contract will be met from the overall 2016 defence allocation. I expect to be engaging with this committee later in the year for a technical Supplementary Estimate to give effect to the use of savings on other subheads to meet this additional funding on the Naval subhead.

The White Paper on Defence, launched by the previous Minister last year, is an important document in setting out strategic defence policy for the coming years. The White Paper process has comprehensively evaluated the ever-changing security climate, assessed the emerging threats, considered the associated capability requirements and provided the defence policy framework for the next decade based on a forward looking assessment of the security environment. This policy framework is flexible and responsive and allows the defence organisation to adapt to changing circumstances.

Following the publication of the White Paper, a total of 88 separate projects were identified. A joint civil-military project team has been established to oversee the implementation process and work in that regard is now well under way in the Department and the Defence Forces.

I would now like to briefly outline some of the key roles and outputs delivered under the defence programme. As the committee is aware, the Defence Forces continue to make a considerable contribution to international peace and security. As of 1 June 2016, Ireland was contributing 474 Defence Forces personnel to 11 overseas missions throughout the world. This level of overseas deployment reflects Ireland’s ongoing contribution to international peace and security. The main overseas missions in which Defence Forces personnel are currently deployed are the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon with 199 personnel, and the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force on the Golan Heights with 136 Defence Forces personnel. As part of the response to the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean, Ireland’s current overseas commitments now also include the deployment of the LE Róisín, with 57 personnel, to the Mediterranean in May of this year.

Domestic security is primarily the responsibility of the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána. However, the Defence Forces play a key support role and in 2015, as part of its aid to the civil power function, the Defence Forces provided a valuable military operational response, as and when required. By way of illustration of the type and volume of aid to the civil power roles undertaken in 2015, the Defence Forces supported An Garda Síochána in 1,021 Garda air support unit missions, 365 Central Bank security guards, 142 prisoner escorts, 141 explosive ordnance disposal call-outs and 18 Naval Service diving operations.

The assistance of the Defence Forces can also be sought by the principal response agencies in dealing with major emergencies. This aid to the civil authorities role encompasses a broad variety of responses, often supported by a service level agreement or a memorandum of understanding. Some of the key outputs under this heading include the level of response to the flooding crisis of late 2015, when 1,304 Defence Forces personnel were deployed nationwide to help with building flood defences, manning water pumps and transporting individuals and families left isolated by severe flooding. The Defence Forces were also deployed on 436 missing person searches in 2015. In addition, the Naval Service conducted a total of 1,079 fisheries boardings, detaining ten vessels for infringements and the Air Corps conducted 397 emergency aeromedical support missions in 2015.

Civil Defence is also funded from the defence Vote and throughout 2015, it was involved in a wide range of activities across the country, including supporting responses to major emergencies. Hundreds of Civil Defence volunteers from right across the country assisted in dealing with the widespread flooding in December. Missing person searches are also an ongoing and valuable feature of the work of Civil Defence.

I am very proud of the role played by the defence organisation in ceremonial events held in 2015 and to date in 2016, as part of the 2012 to 2022 Decade of Centenaries programme. Their input contributed enormously to the sense of occasion, ceremony and national pride that accompanied these events.

Among the many ceremonial highlights which incorporated a military role in 2016 were the flag raising in Dublin Castle on 1 January and the full military display involving 2,500 military personnel at the Easter Sunday commemoration parade. A number of other events are planned for 2016 and the Department of Defence will continue to work closely with the Ireland 2016 project office in the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Department of the Taoiseach to ensure the continued success of the decade of centenaries programme.

The White Paper on Defence also recognised the importance of the Reserve Defence Forces as a vital component of Ireland’s defence arrangements and the Government has acknowledged the excellent levels of voluntary service pertaining to Reserve Defence Forces membership and the vital role they can play in supporting the Permanent Defence Force. However, to increase operational efficiency, it was also acknowledged that reform is necessary and a range of measures, building on the value for money review of the Reserve Defence Forces, will, over time, increase the overall effectiveness of the Reserve Defence Forces.

Vote 35, the Army pensions Vote, has a single programme entitled, Provision for Defence Forces Pensions Benefits. Expenditure under Vote 35 is demand-driven and non-discretionary, with superannuation benefits - pensions and gratuities - and disability pensions, etc., accounting for 99% of all expenditure. Pension benefits granted are, for the most part, statutory entitlements once certain criteria are met. Some 12,150 pensioners paid from the Army pensions Vote. This is a net increase of 1,150 since 2007. Some 2,450 military personnel have retired on pension from January 2010 to date. Over recent years, a shortfall arising on the Army pensions Vote has required a Supplementary Estimate. In 2015, it amounted to €6.5 million. I expect a Supplementary Estimate will also be required in 2016. Previously, the shortfall was addressed through savings arising on the defence Vote, without any requirement for additional Exchequer funding. It is intended that this arrangement will also apply this year and I will brief the committee at the appropriate time.

Some 80 surviving widows of deceased veterans of the War of Independence are in receipt of pensions from my Department. Their average age is 92 and their numbers are, understandably, declining with the years. As a mark of the State’s appreciation, and given that this year is the 100th anniversary of the Easter 1916 Rising, I am pleased to tell the committee that these widows have received a special 50% boost in their monthly pensions, effective from 1 January 2016. There are no Old IRA veterans in receipt of pensions, given that the last such veteran died in 2006.

I have broadly outlined the key inputs, outputs and performance indicators for the defence sector. Overall expenditure to date in 2016 is largely as expected for the first five months of the year, with no significant unforeseen or unplanned pressures arising other than those already outlined. The committee members have been provided with briefing material on the individual subheads for both the Defence Estimates and Army Pensions Estimates and I look forward to positive engagement on any issues the members may wish to discuss.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his opening remarks and the information he has provided. In his opening statement, the Minister of State said, "The Government has acknowledged the excellent levels of voluntary service pertaining to Reserve Defence Forces membership and the vital role they can play in supporting the Permanent Defence Force". The RDF strength stands at 56% and targets for this year from 57% to 65% suggest we are not placing the value on the RDF that the Minister of State suggests we are. At those levels, we are operating far below the strength at which we should be operating. Why is this and how genuinely proactive are attempts to recruit members into the RDF? Is any advertising planned to target people to join the RDF and address the very serious deficit in the strength and numbers in the RDF?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her comments. I have had conversations with her via parliamentary questions and in person about it. The Department and I have great respect for members of the RDF. Next week, I will have a bilateral meeting with the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General about a number of issues, including the RDF. One of the most serious problems with recruitment to the RDF is that not as many people are volunteering their time to any organisation. The Defence Forces and the Department must encourage them, give them an opportunity and show them what they can get out of being a member of the RDF.

Encouraging people in is a problem. Numbers have been falling over recent years. Other organisations face similar issues with getting people in. As of 31 May, the Reserve Defence Forces had 2,011 Army personnel and 123 Naval Service personnel. There were 5,200 RDF members in 2011, 4,700 in 2012, 3,600 in 2013, 2,300 in 2014 and 2,280 in 2015. I understand the Deputy's concerns and I want to actively get involved in the issue and help increase the numbers in the RDF. If the Deputy, or any committee member, has any ideas on how to get volunteers involved in the RDF, I am open to all suggestions.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. Based on the numbers for previous years, we can see the levels are dropping significantly and we are haemorrhaging good people. Is any advertising planned for this year and next year to get people into the RDF?

In his opening statement, the Minister of State mentioned the fantastic work members of the RDF did in flood relief only a few months ago. Recently, a person told me his man days for annual training had been removed and he will not be allowed to attend annual training this summer, given that he used them up on flood relief.

He wants to volunteer but he has been assisting communities with their flood relief measures and is not being allowed to conduct his own training this summer. These are very practical changes we can make to facilitate reservists as much as possible. People want to volunteer but are being stopped.

An advertising campaign would not involve a huge amount of money but would let people know the reserve still exists. When barracks and outposts were closed down the reserve was taken out of many communities and the opportunity for people to get involved in the Reserve Defence Force was lost. We need a proactive advertising campaign such as was done this year for the Permanent Defence Force, which involved an excellent video showing women in sport aimed at addressing the shortfall of women in the Defence Forces. Something similar for the Reserve Defence Force could make a very good impact.

I appreciate the Minister's comments on the Reserve Defence Force and I will liaise with him further to put forward practical solutions to the problems with this fantastic organisation that we are on the verge of losing. As somebody who spent a long time in the organisation and who has experienced the benefits at first hand, I would find it very sad to lose the Reserve Defence Force from this country. The Minister mentioned the recently signed contract with Babcock and said initial payments under the contract would be met from the overall 2016 defence allocation. He then said he expected to engage with the committee later in the year for a technical supplementary Estimate to give effect to the use of savings on other subheads to meet this additional funding. What savings does the Minister expect and under what subheads will they arise?

Should I continue with my questions?

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will be aware of the Defence Forces climate survey. How much did this cost and when can we expect publication of the results? Will the representative associations of the Defence Forces be provided with a copy in advance of publication? If so, when will this be? If not, why not? The recommendation of Dr. Eileen Doyle in the independent monitoring group report on bullying and harassment is that the representative associations be engaged in the design and findings of such surveys. Why did this not happen?

The next question relates to the White Paper, on which we have already touched. I was going to ask how many projects were identified but the Minister has already said that there are 88. What is the expected cost of implementing these projects? What timeline is envisaged? What is the expected cost of implementing projects this year and next year? Are there plans to consult with the representative associations during the scoping or planning phase of these projects and to get their views before implementing projects? The White Paper requires meaningful consultation at these early stages. While the Department, the Minister of State and his team are very experienced they need to take on board the views of those whom they expect to implement projects. These are the people on the ground who will implement the White Paper and it is vitally important they are involved in the planning and scoping phases of projects. They will have operational knowledge that the Department will not have and will be able to identify potential issues. Having dealt with these organisations, I know they will be as facilitating as possible and will assist in overcoming any problems in order to make the implementation of the White Paper more successful. In any change management it is necessary to bring people along with the project.

What is the projected cost of filling current officer vacancies this year and next year? Are adequate resources for salaries and training available to recruit the level of staff we need? There is a 38% vacancy rate at lieutenant level and the rate of vacancies at captain level is 44%. These are the management levels of the Defence Forces and these are the peoples running our units in charge of the security of the State. To leave our Defence Forces with such vacancy levels puts them and our country in a very precarious position.

Has the Minister considered commissioning from the ranks and direct entry commissioning to bulk up the numbers? With cadet classes having a maximum capacity of 75 students per year, even if we were to fill every cadet class it would not compensate for the attrition rate we are experiencing. Relying solely on cadet recruitment will not be sufficient to bridge the current gap, a gap which is widening.

With the loss of the western brigade and the closure of a number of barracks over the past few years, soldiers are travelling from Finner in Donegal to Dublin to cover duties, and from Athlone to Finner and Athlone to Dublin, resulting in a huge cost to our Defence Forces. It is clearly not an efficient use of resources for somebody to travel in a car to and from a duty like this, and it would be worthwhile to estimate the cost of this while evaluating the organisational structure of the Defence Forces. It would assist us in addressing the inadequacy in the structure of the Defence Forces. I do not believe we fully appreciate the cost, financial, social and personal, of removing the western brigade.

The Gormanston youth project is part of the White Paper. What was the estimated cost of this project and what is the actual cost? Where is the Department getting the staff from to manage the project? Are they being taken from current posts and are posts being left vacant while this happens? Are people double and triple jobbing to cover this project? Were the representative associations consulted during the scoping phase of this project and prior to implementation? My information is that they were not, which was a bad move and one I hope will not be replicated. Are any civilian personnel involved in the project and at what cost?

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have two more.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of questions. Perhaps I could have received a written submission but I will do my best. If I leave something out the Deputy can come back to me.

The Babcock contract will be paid from savings over the course of 2016 from the overall Department. When I come back looking for a Supplementary Estimate I will outline the specific saving in each subhead, down to the last cent. I assure the Deputy that there has been prudent management on each subhead throughout 2016 and I will give her the full savings for each later in the year. One would not expect any Department to envisage where savings would arise in a coming year. The Revised Estimates would normally be submitted in January or February and I will give the Deputy the precise details when we come back later in the year.

With regard to the climate survey, I met the military yesterday to discuss the survey carried out by the University of Limerick.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, who did the Minister of State meet?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, I met the military people who carried out the climate survey with the University of Limerick. The university carried out the research. I received a brief on it. Today, I will have a copy of the full report.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister of State forward it on to me?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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No, I will not forward it to anybody. I must still consider the report myself. I will consider it over the coming weeks and I assure the Deputy I will not rush into publishing the report until I consider every part of it. Something in which I have a general interest is with regard to the welfare and well-being of all members of the Defence Forces, from the newest recruit to the Chief of Staff. I will consider this. The Deputy can be assured that I will consult PDFORRA and RACO on the issues. I have asked that both organisations, along with myself, will get a briefing presentation from UL on how exactly the climate survey was carried out. I will not make any further comment on it until I have the full report myself in my own hands.

I was involved in the initial stages of Dr. Eileen Doyle's review and I want to get an exact up-to-date position on where we are with it. It is all about bullying and harassment. I will get it in the coming weeks. I have not received every report and I have only been in the position for the past six weeks. It is an issue I want to get a handle on to see where we are with regard to the recommendations in Dr. Eileen Doyle's report.

On the White Paper, as I stated, it contains 88 projects. We have a civil person and a military person working on the White Paper and its implementation. If either of the two organisations has any issues during the implementation of any of the projects, I have no issue whatsoever in speaking to it and taking its views into account. It is very important that we involve the full defence organisation. Implementation of the White Paper will involve and affect every member of the Defence Forces, so it is very important that they are involved in its implementation. I assure the committee there will be a consultative process on all projects on the civil and military sides. At our monthly meetings I will receive an update on the implementation of the White Paper and the consultative process with every facet of the organisation. I have been informed by my officials that a roadshow is going to all barracks informing members about the White Paper and involving them as much as possible in the process of implementation. The 88 projects in the White Paper have not been separately costed, but I will obtain as much information as possible on this and will forward it to the committee.

There are no funding deficits in the recruitment of officers. I do not have a list of the vacancies with me. There are 1,170 whole-time equivalent officers and we have 1,107 at present. We will take in 75 cadets in September or October between the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service. There will be 50 going to the Army, 15 to the Naval Service and ten to the Air Corps. This is a major increase on recent years. I understand the point made that we cannot depend on the recruitment of new cadets and I take this on board. An issue on my radar is to see why we are shedding so many officers. There are a number of issues, but it is on my radar. There is an exit survey whereby those leaving are asked for their reasons for doing so. I hope to feed in this research to try to stop officers from leaving, because we depend on officers. I assure the Deputy there are no funding issues.

What was Deputy Chambers's question on the organisational structure?

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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With the loss of the Western Brigade and the closure of a number of barracks, we have soldiers in different posts who come to Dublin to cover duties. It costs us money to have these people in cars driving around the country because of the structure. We need to evaluate the cost to the Defence Forces of having to cover these distances because of the gaps we have left. The cost is far greater than we anticipated.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There were going to be huge teething problems with the closure of the Western Brigade and it will take a considerable length of time. It will not be done overnight.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Will there be a reversal?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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No, there will not be a reversal. It will not be done overnight, but I have asked that new recruits from the west of Ireland are trained in Galway or Donegal, recruits from the east of the country are trained in Dublin or Kilkenny and people from the South will go to either Cork or Limerick, so that they are close to home when their training is finished. This will not always be the case and will not always work out, but to the best of the military's ability I have asked it to look at this. I have also asked that the general officers commanding look after their brigades and ensure as suitably as possible that people are placed near their homes.

The revised structure has meant that under-strength units have been consolidated into a smaller number of full-strength units and has led to the associated redeployment of personnel from administrative and support functions into operational units. The White Paper provides for the strength of the Permanent Defence Force to be at least 9,500 personnel with, accordingly, the retention of a two-brigade structure. We do not have any plans to reintroduce a third Army brigade. To revert to a three-brigade structure would adversely impact on the operational capacity of the Permanent Defence Force to continue to carry out all roles assigned by the Government. We do not want to have a third brigade that is under-strength. We need brigades that are at full strength and full capacity and have the capability to carry out whatever the Government expects of them.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I could not agree more.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have a number of follow-up questions on the group of questions.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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They are specifically on those questions with nothing additional. On the climate survey, the Minister of State did not answer any of my questions so I will ask them again. How much did the climate survey cost? I appreciate that the Minister of State will have the publication himself, but when can I expect to see it? When can the representative associations expect to see it? The Minister of State mentioned that he was to go to UL for a briefing.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What I said was that I received a briefing yesterday from military officials. I will go back to both organisations, PDFORRA and RACO. I said this.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will be giving them a full briefing on the climate change report. I am not holding anything back. I did say I would be getting the report first. I will consider the findings personally myself and then there will be a presentation by UL to both RACO and PDFORRA. Thereafter, we will publish the report. I will not specify the date I will publish the report, but as soon as I consider the findings and give both organisations a summary of the report, I will then publish it.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That is the crux of it. The representative associations need to have a copy of the report prior to publication. That is the guarantee I am seeking. They will not have an opportunity to respond and adequately deal with the report if it is given to them on the day of publication when they present themselves at UL. They need the report in advance so that they can digest it and come forward with their own observations. Will the Minister of State ensure that they will get a copy of the report in advance of the UL meeting?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will not promise-----

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have not.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have made the point as best I can. I cannot put it any further. The report needs to be in the hands of the representative associations prior to publication and prior to their arriving at UL for the briefing. They need time to digest it before they get the briefing. It is only fair.

On the White Paper, I appreciate that the Minister of State said he would give me a costing as far as is possible, and that individual projects have not been costed. However, I impress on the Minister of State that for each project there will be a scoping or planning phase. On this roadshow, where people will have an opportunity to give their ideas and input on the White Paper, we need to have members of the representative associations and serving members involved in the planning phase for each specific project to fully appreciate the difficulties that might be encountered by those who will be implementing the project. That is the point I wished to make.

The Minister of State did not answer the question on officer vacancies. Has he considered commissioning from the ranks and direct-entry commissioning to bulk up the numbers? There is clearly a huge gap and the Minister of State has identified that it is not possible for the cadet class to fill it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On the last question first, that is not something I have considered but I will keep it in mind.

I wish to assure Deputy Chambers very clearly that I will not be involving all of the organisations in each of the 88 projects. That is a matter for management and the military authorities. Let me tell the Deputy that every member of the Irish Defence Forces will be given every opportunity to engage in the implementation of the White Paper. This is one of the reasons for the roadshow that is going around to each and every barracks at this moment in time. I encourage every member of the organisation to get involved in the implementation of the White Paper. If they have anything to add to it, I will gladly take on board any views and recommendations made. Unfortunately, we live in the real world. We cannot implement everyone's views or recommendations but we will try to consider them in a practical way.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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RACO and PDFORRA could be included in the scoping phase of the project.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies, Chairman.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We have to implement the White Paper. If we were to involve every representative organisation and go into the detail of everything-----

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There are only two organisations.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely, but there are 88 projects. There is a timeframe for the implementation of the White Paper and I want to get it implemented. Both PDFORRA and RACO have copies of the White Paper and I am meeting them before the end of this month. I have sent correspondence to say I would meet them. If they have anything to give to me on the White Paper and its implementation, I will gladly consider it. However, we do not have to go into every minute detail of the 88 projects-----

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Are they even aware of the projects?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Sorry?

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair, do they know what the projects are?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Of course they are aware of the projects, and they are being consulted on the implementation of the White Paper. I would like the committee to be assured that the representative associations fed into the consultative process prior to the publication of the White Paper and were involved in every part of its drawing up. Any recommendations or suggestions made were encouraged.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Deputy Kehoe and wish him well in his new position as Minister of State in the Department of Defence. He and his officials are very welcome. I have a couple of brief questions. Will the Minister of State give me some brief information on the €23 million for the upgrade and purchase of equipment?

I wish to congratulate everyone involved in the Navy's humanitarian effort in the Mediterranean Sea and put the wonderful work they are doing on the record given the number of lives saved as a result of their intervention. Approximately, what is the cost involved? Is that money reimbursed?

The Minister of State mentioned training. Finner Camp is in my constituency. The previous speaker is quite right about the amount of travelling involved. Members of the Defence Forces have to travel from Ballyshannon to Dublin and various other places. On training in the north west area, are Finner Camp and other barracks such as that in Athlone considered to be in that catchment area? The Minister of State might revert to me at some stage on that question.

On the Air Corps, I live in Strandhill in Co. Sligo. We have a base at Sligo Airport. Wonderful work is being done there and any money that has been spent is money well spent. Lives have been saved and issues resolved by the Naval Service. I see their work on the ground. I know personally those involved and the work they do. I want to put the wonderful work they do to the Minister of State as well as on the record.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The sum of €23 million has been provided for equipment, and €5 million has been provided for the acquisition of ammunition types needed to maintain stocks, training and overseas requirements through the year in 2016. There is an ongoing upgrading of the Department of Defence. We had procurement for a number of missiles and recently upgraded the surface-to-air missile system. We have also had procurement of armoured logistic vehicles and armoured utility vehicles, which are required for force protection overseas. There were other small bits and pieces too for the update of equipment in the allocation.

I will take back to the Department the Deputy's views on the Naval Service's involvement in the Mediterranean Sea. We do not get reimbursed for the mission; it is a cost to the Exchequer. However, there is no real additional cost except for the fuel to travel from here to the Mediterranean Sea and to patrol the mission area. If the ship was at home, it would be involved in sea fisheries protection or some other operation.

The involvement of the Air Corps in the ambulance service is hugely important. The service is provided through the Defence Forces by the Department of Defence and the HSE. It is under review, but I very much support the service as I have heard many potentially tragic stories of lives that have been saved. I will take the Deputy's views on that back to the Department as well.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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On a procedural matter, it is bad, although it suits me today, that there is a time constraint on anything to do with Estimates. I ask that to be fed back as a suggested change for the future.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am just asking that the suggestion be fed back.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It suits me, though, because I have to rush off.

I will have to go, but if the Minister of State does not have some of these answers to hand, he might provide them in writing.

Some of the questions will also probably pertain to next year's Estimates. The first question relates to subhead A4, which indicates the Permanent Defence Forces' allowances breakdown. For overseas, it is more than €13.5 million. Is that rebatable by the United Nations, given that it is overseas? Often overseas costs incurred on United Nations duty may be recouped in full or in part by the State, depending on the nature of the service overseas.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Some of the allowances are reimbursed and we can get an exact breakdown.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful. This document indicates a cost but if €13.5 million is being paid and we are getting €6.5 million back, it would-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy understands there will be a cost to the Exchequer on some of the allowances.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know not all of them can be recouped. It depends on United Nations duty and whether the mission is "blue hat" or mandated. That has a bearing on whether the money can be recouped.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have been informed by officials that approximately €4.3 million will be reimbursed for 2016. That is going on figures for previous years, with the same number of people being abroad.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Subhead A8 indicates €23 million is spent on procurement, basically, for replacing and upgrading existing equipment. There are ethical guidelines when the procurement is done. When I was a spokesperson on this issue for the party, I made a big deal about how we purchase military equipment from Israel, for example, although that is not the only place from where we buy equipment. Is that a factor in purchasing from overseas companies or countries with a dubious track record with respect to human rights violations? Some companies have been involved in supplying weapons to countries whose armies are involved with major human rights breaches.

I associate myself with the praise for the operations in the Mediterranean by the Naval Service. We have set a standard that other countries should follow, given how small is our navy. I hope that with the purchase of the new vessel, we may be able to contribute more. Is there an additional cost for counselling of those involved, given what they see day in, day out on the Mediterranean? It is something that should be considered, although perhaps it may be somewhere else in budget. From what I have heard from people on the ground and on various islands, there can be harrowing scenes day in, day out. I assume that what people in the Naval Service see would not be wished on anybody. It will have an effect so it is important that the issue be considered, given the length of the operation and the likelihood it will continue.

The new vessel is being purchased at €67 million, as the Minister of State mentioned. He argued it represents excellent value. Three other ships were purchased - the LE Samuel Beckett, LE James Joyce and LE William Butler Yeats- at €199 million. One of them was only €46 million. Perhaps they are different ship types but I do not know why this ship seems to come at a greater cost than previous purchases.

The Minister of State mentioned the commemorations and I associate myself with his comments on the role played by the Defence Forces in the commemorative programme. The role they had in presenting flags to schools will have an effect in future. There should be no difficulty in recruiting to the Army or the Reserve Defence Forces, given the enthusiasm I saw in any of the schools I attended when the flag was being presented. They should be commended for that, the way they carried themselves and how they reflected the Defence Forces in the events organised. There is no cost for that in the Estimate but perhaps it was assumed within existing costs.

The grants to the veterans' association of €55,000 seems small but I do not have previous figures to measure it against. An increase could be considered. Subhead A23 relates to questions I put to the Minister of State a couple of weeks ago about our transfer to the EU battle group. The battle group run by the British is English-speaking and there will be a cost involved in switching. As the UK is to leave the European Union, we could ask if it was worthwhile making the change or whether we might have been better staying with the Nordic group.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will provide a brief on the reimbursement of allowances, etc. Everything in procurement is done on the open market and purchases are made from respected suppliers. This is all essential equipment so we can have the capability to operate overseas. I will take back the Deputy's views on the work being done by the Naval Service on the Mediterranean. He asked about counselling for members on vessels. I am not able to give an exact breakdown in that respect but the medical corps in the military provide an excellent service. I assure the Deputy that personnel are given whatever is required in a medical sense, including counselling. This is about the protection and well-being of all our personnel on board those vessels.

The Deputy mentioned a €46 million figure for a vessel but that is not the full cost of an individual vessel. It is the payment in a particular year. The overall contract was €200 million. One can consider the cost of labour and steel, in particular, over the past number of years and that the contract was signed in 2010. The cost of building any ship has gone dramatically through the roof over the past number of years.

The Department of Defence got a great deal on the fourth ship. The €46 million is the sum paid under the naval vessel replacement programme in a specific year. The value of the overall contract for three ships was €199.4 million inclusive of VAT.

The commemoration ceremonies of 2016 were very successful. I hope it will help in the recruitment of young officers and staff into the Permanent Defence Force. The Army personnel got a great reception when they went to the schools throughout the country. I was present at a number of schools in County Wexford for the presentation of the flag and Proclamation. It was the first time that many schoolchildren had seen Army personnel in the flesh. The Army personnel were able to brief the children on what was involved in Army life and I hope it will pay off when we come to recruit Army personnel in the years to come.

The Deputy raised the question of the battle group. Four officers have been deployed to the battle group force headquarters in Catterick, north Yorkshire, while one other has been deployed to the operational headquarters based in Northwood. The outcome of the recent referendum in the United Kingdom is not expected to have any bearing on the function or operation of this battle group. We had a very good debate on Ireland's participation in the UK battle group. Let me put on record that the term "battle group" is very unfortunate. I know Deputy Barrett, during the debate in the Dáil, raised the use of the word. It is a military operational word but people have formed the wrong concept of what a battle group is about.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Has consideration been given to increasing the funding for the Veterans Association? The figure in the Estimates is €55,000. Is that the standard payment, given the numbers?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am informed that is the standard sum that has been paid over a long number of years.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late. I thought we were beginning at 11 a.m., the misunderstanding is my fault.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. To follow on from his comment on the battle group, I think Ireland should be very proud of her ongoing involvement in peacekeeping missions, particularly the reputation we have gained from having the UNTSI peacekeeping college based in the Curragh and the image it gives the country.

I raised this matter briefly in the Dáil, and did so not wishing to be awkward. It is very unfortunate that we use the term "battle groups". Ireland is renowned and respected for its peacekeeping. I saw from my time as Minister for Defence how proud one would be when one went abroad to see the very important role we play in peacekeeping. We should retain that very carefully. We are a small nation but we have a lot of influence.

I tell this story from time to time. When I was Minister for Defence, I got a call one day from the US military attaché. He wanted to confirm if it would be in order to recommend to his superior officers in the United States that they should send key personnel from the US defence forces to our peacekeeping college. He told me they know nothing about peacekeeping. They recruit young men and women into the defence forces, they have the best equipment in the world, they teach them how to use it and they send them off on peacekeeping missions. That is no way to do peacekeeping missions. Anybody who has seen the way our personnel operate within communities, wherever they are, will know they become part of the community. It is the image. We do not need to stick out our chest and say our Army is in the battle group. This is more important. I do not know how much it costs to have our peacekeeping college but I am not questioning the cost. One could not buy the reputation it creates for Ireland in training people in peacekeeping. One cannot check it against cost. It is invaluable. Long may we continue to hold the superior role in peacekeeping. Whether we have a mission of 20 people here or our forces continue to serve in Lebanon, it is the influence that Ireland has in terms of peacekeeping.

When I served as Ceann Comhairle I visited Iran on the invitation of the Iranian ambassador. I spoke to the President, Mr. Rouhani. During the course of the interview I asked him a straight question, whether Iran was involved in developing nuclear weaponry. He looked at me and said that the answer to my question was no, for the one simple reason that it was contrary to their religious beliefs. I have listened to debates about the dangers of Iran. I asked that man straight to his face and I got a straight answer. The answer was no and he gave me the reason. We have spent a long period trying to bring peace to the Middle East by having our troops out there. This is an emerging country that has gone through the process with the five permanent members of the UN Security Council and has come to a solution. It has the richest deposits of gas in the world and a population of almost 80 million people. It could do a tremendous amount for peacekeeping in that region if we encourage and persuade it.

I also spoke to the speaker of the Parliament, Mr. Larijani. I was not back a wet day when Mr. Larijani's people were on to me to know if it would be possible to visit Ireland. He wanted to visit the peacekeeping college. I had spoken to him about it and recommended strongly that Iran become the peacekeepers in the Middle East. When did Iran invade any county? Never. Iran was invaded by Iraq. We should be encouraging the current regime into peacekeeping. When Mr. Larijani arrived in Ireland he was blocked from going to the peacekeeping college. I had to meet the Minister in his office in Newbridge. What sort of nonsense is it that we would not allow the speaker of the Iranian Parliament to visit a peacekeeping college? That is why I am very nervous when I see the importance of NATO and the battle group in our setup.

Ireland is a small country with a population of 4.5 million but it punches its weight in terms of peacekeeping and is one of the most powerful peacekeeping nations in the world. Why is that the case? It is because of our reputation for training people in peacekeeping. It is also down to the troops we send abroad, who have their own method and tactics. I have seen them in operation and they are brilliant. Sometimes my wife used to come with me on those trips. She would be taken away into the villages as part of the exercise. This is something special. I am sorry to have to bring it up here but we must protect our reputation for peacekeeping very carefully. We do not want to be heroes tagging on to some battle group in Europe. For what purpose? Are we going to war? It is extremely important that our reputation for peacekeeping and for training people in the methods of peacekeeping should be protected very carefully.

How much does the peacekeeping college in the Curragh cost? I am not questioning the cost because one could not buy it but, for goodness sake, I hope I never have a repeat of what I saw in respect of the visitor from Iran. I thank the Minister of State and the staff that he brought over to meet with Mr. Larijani but this sort of stuff is incredible. That is the main purpose. Any other thing here is understandable but what we do in peacekeeping and the money we spend on training people and having that peacekeeping college does a lot for Ireland. As I said about the US, the military attaché stated that they knew nothing about peacekeeping. Why? It is because during his period here, he saw what we were achieving through the peacekeeping college. This is great for Ireland. When everybody else is trying to bring peace into the world, we are masters at it and have been doing it since the 1950s when we went to the Congo. Let us not join the group because we are going into battle and we need bigger ships. We need to continue on the road of training our personnel to be the great peacekeepers of the world.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Barrett for his contribution. He is correct when he says that some of the country's greatest ambassadors are members of the Defence Forces who go abroad on missions. It is only when one goes abroad and sees our personnel on peacekeeping missions and how they interact with the local villages, mayors, political leaders and people that one sees how we are able to operate. The Deputy talks about how people look at us with envy regarding the work we carry out and how we are ambassadors. The programme for a partnership Government includes a commitment to develop a new peace support and leadership training programme at the Curragh. This is in the initial planning stages. Over €10 million has been allocated for this project. I want to see this project delivered with the Department, the Defence Forces and other Departments.

The Deputy asked whether there is an exact cost.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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What is the cost of the peacekeeping college?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not have it but I will-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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This is it again. It is hidden in here somewhere. We should be displaying this. This is something of which we should very proud. It is hidden in these Estimates but what I am trying to get across is-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is only at the planning stage.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the existing one. This is an image of Ireland of which we should be very proud. When people come to Ireland to find out whether they can visit our peacekeeping college, they certainly should not be blocked from doing so. They should be encouraged to visit it and be told how we train people because this is like the gospel. One tries to spread it. What would the Minister of State think if somebody came to visit and if it were made difficult for him or her to visit a peacekeeping college? What would he think about that? I am sorry the officials are distracting him. I am trying to ask a straight question here and I include the officials in this. What would they think if they went to a country and wanted to visit a peacekeeping college and somebody would not let them into it? What would they think of that? It is totally contradictory in terms of what this is about. What happened was an absolute disgrace that should never be allowed to happen again. It was a total embarrassment to this Parliament, its Members and the Minister of State. I am sure he was not made aware of it but it was a total embarrassment. We are sending people out on peacekeeping missions. I am referring to one of the major powers in the Middle East, which should be encouraged in the context of what it is doing. It has entered into an agreement, opened its doors and said that it is not developing nuclear weapons. I asked a direct question so let us get over it and stop playing this big game about Iran and Israel. I do not mean the Minister of State or any of his officials. We know what this game is about. It is about vested interests in the US. We know that but we should not be part of it.

Our role as peacekeepers should never be interfered with. Being involved in NATO battle groups damages our reputation in that area. We go by the UN flag and when we go abroad and see the blue berets and our people wearing them, we are proud of that. That is good enough for us. Getting sucked into battle groups and an EU defence policy will only damage us. This is what happened in Great Britain. We should learn a lesson. People are getting very nervous. We have an un-elected President who attends G8 meetings and a foreign secretary, or whatever she is called, who was not elected by anybody either. They both attend important G8 meetings. What happened to the days when we held the Presidency for six months and were very proud of it? Ireland's reputation was huge. People came here to learn from how we ran the Presidency. One never hears about it now because we have an un-elected President so there has been a total move towards Europe and the next thing, we will be told about a European army. I am sorry but we should learn a lesson from Brexit and the nervousness in Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden. It is linked to this. There are people who would like us to be involved in a NATO set up. I do not want to be so involved. I want to be deeply involved in the UN and peacekeeping. That is where we belong. We should always ensure that our Defence Forces have sufficient funds to be able to participate in these peacekeeping missions, regardless of whether they are ten, 20 or, as in the case of Lebanon, 200-person missions. This is very important to us. I was annoyed that I was late for this meeting. It was my fault because I thought it was to commence at 11 a.m.

It is so important for us to get the opportunity, because we very seldom do, to debate in the House the importance of this matter to Ireland. I do not mind if people disagree with me but it is important to me that we have a platform to say how important it is that nobody interferes or damages our independent role in the United Nations and peacekeeping. I ask that the Minister of State ensures that the peacekeeping college gets what it needs as long as he is in the Department because what it does is worth a fortune. It is telling that the United States of America sent its key personnel to the college, admittedly nearly 20 years ago, to learn about peacekeeping.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Barrett.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Watch out.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Has incentivised leave been explored in terms of a retention policy? Has a scheme been costed? Will it be considered? The Minister of State has already touched on, as have I, the high attrition rate in the Defence Forces. Around the five year mark we are losing highly trained officers. A lot of money is spent on training people so it would be worth giving people the option of a career break. People could leave the Defence Forces to do other things for a number of years and then return having gained civilian experience. It would mean we would retain the people who have been well trained by the Defence Forces. I ask the Minister of State to consider ways to alleviate the loss of personnel.

I want to ask about the change of station allowance. The allowance has become more important now with the closure of barracks and, as mentioned by Deputy Tony McLoughlin and others, people must travel large distances. In terms of somebody having to relocate for a particular period, does the Minister of State have the annual cost of the change of station allowance? Has this spending increased or decreased since 2014? Are we spending more or less on the annual change of station allowance?

I wish to bring a matter that he might be able to work on to the attention of the Minister of State. It has been brought to my attention that originally people applying for the change of station allowance could produce their landlord-tenant agreement, as not everyone is a homeowner. In this instance one could offer a lease agreement as proof of where one lived. Soldiers are now being asked to provide a registration number provided by the Private Residential Tenancies Board. The onus to register with the PRTB lies with the landlord and not the tenant. Basically, it is a Revenue issue. It is unfair to request a member of the Defence Forces to provide a PRTB registration number that he or she is not responsible for generating. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that a reasonable level of documentation is required. It should be enough to provide a copy of a lease as proof of where one has lived. People should not have to supply extra documentation in order to qualify for the allowance. It has become overly cumbersome to apply for the allowance.

My next comment may be totally off the wall. There is a feeling or perception among members that applying for the allowance has been made unduly difficult in order to discourage applications and, thus, reduce the cost of the allowance. That may not be true but that is the talk among the soldiers. My view is that the PRTB documentation should not be sought.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In terms of giving personnel an opportunity to take career breaks, as the Deputy well knows a large number of people in the Defence Forces avail of career breaks. It affords them an opportunity to experience the civilian world and gain expertise. Anyone who wishes to take a career break must apply for the leave. I do not have the figure for the number of people who are granted or refused a career break but I can assure the Deputy that we give them every opportunity to avail of a career break. At the same time we must retain expertise and we cannot allow five people to leave a section at the same time. Every application is considered on a case-by-case basis. Around 60 people are on career break at the moment.

In terms of the criteria for the change of station allowance, I was not aware that the documentation had been changed. Criteria must be put in place and an applicant must be able to prove where he or she is living. I was unaware that a PRTB number was required but criteria must be stipulated. Brigade changes have been made in the past while, so a lot more people have applied for the allowance. Criteria had to be put in place in order to ensure the scheme is not abused.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Are soldiers being requested to provide a PRTB form when applying for a change of station allowance? If the Department does not generate the document then it is unfair to ask applicants to produce it and a lease agreement should suffice.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The military personnel do not bring everything to my desk for my signature. A lot of work goes on in the background and I am aware of as much as possible. My permission is not necessary to change the type of documentation required. I have no doubt that a similar standard of documentation is required in other areas.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister of State tell me whether the annual expenditure on this allowance has increased or decreased?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There has been no increase. Sorry, I will write to the Deputy with a reply.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Chairman. Without doubt, the RDF, over a long number of years, has given many vulnerable people from communities a start in life and offered them leadership. The same applies to the Naval Service Reserve. Commitments have been given to these structures in the White Paper. I return to my original point that the word "volunteers" is often thrown around. The people who join the Reserve volunteer their time. They receive a small payment for their training days.

I hope that under the single force concept, they will be given a meaningful role. I am not saying they did not have a meaningful in the past but I hope their role will change and they will do more training with members of the Permanent Defence Force. If anyone inside or outside the House has any ideas about how to attract people to join the Reserve Defence Force, I will be pleased to hear them.

Deputy Chambers spoke during Oral Questions recently about how long it takes for applicants to be accepted in the Reserve. I will meet the Chief of Staff and Secretary General of the Department next week to try to identify logjams that are causing these delays. People who apply to join the Reserve should be given every opportunity to do so because it provides great opportunities for men and women.

During my time as Minister of State in the Department of Defence in the previous Government and, more recently, in my new role, I have been contacted by numerous people asking me questions about joining the Defence Forces. I always advise them to join the Reserve Defence Force in order that they can get a flavour of Army life. They can then decide whether they wish to be a member of the Permanent Defence Force, whether as a private or officer. The Reserve Defence Force provides a great grounding for young people, male and female.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is important to build up the Reserve in Dublin also. When I was growing up, the Reserve Defence Forces was a big thing in Dublin but that appears to have waned. I do not notice it now. While I support the views expressed by the Chairman and Deputies, the Minister should not forget to hold a recruitment campaign for the Reserve Defence Force in Dublin.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister intend to restrict the campaign to the areas mentioned? It should be a nationwide campaign because I know people who became pillars of society after undergoing training in the Reserve Defence Force. I have in mind vulnerable young people. The Minister will be aware of the individuals I am referring to as we discussed this issue. These young people have gone from strength to strength and are now influential in their own communities where they deal with other young people. If the Minister pursues the course of action proposed by the Chairman, the recruitment campaign should be nationwide.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Military personnel have visited secondary schools to encourage females to apply for the Permanent Defence Force. We all observed the successful visits by military personnel to primary schools to present flags and copies of the Proclamation. Perhaps a similar campaign could be copied and pasted, so to speak, in secondary schools, beginning with transition year students. While permission must be obtained from secondary schools and career guidance issues are involved, I will convey the views of members to my officials and the Defence Forces and ask what can be done about the issues raised.

I have a genuine interest in the Reserve Defence Force, which is very strong in County Wexford and many other towns and counties. We want to retain the ethos of the Reserve which offers people an opportunity to see at first hand what military life entails. They can then join the Permanent Defence Forces if they wish.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would very much welcome that. If the committee required personnel from the Defence Forces or officials in my Department to attend, I would not have any issues with their participation.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That is an excellent idea as it will show we are being proactive in this area. In fairness to the Minister, he has stated on many occasions that he is open to hearing the ideas of other members on how to address the problems we are facing in respect of the Reserve Defence Force. Speakers touched on the social benefits of membership of the Reserve. This is not only an issue of our defence capabilities and the Defence Forces but the social benefits to the community of having a reserve unit. The period before the October meeting presents us with an opportunity to reflect on any ideas we may have on improving the current position and assisting the work of the Minister.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Lisa Chambers spoke about the social element of the Reserve Defence Force. When people volunteer to join the Reserve they must make a serious commitment in terms of training. They cannot turn up when they like but at appointed times and they must also give a commitment in terms of tough physical training. We want to encourage the right people to join for the right reasons. They should not join for financial reward because the economic benefits are small. We must decide on what are the reasons for joining the Reserve Defence Force because these have changed in the past 20 years.

Perhaps we need to discuss the reasons former members were not active or left the Reserve. There is no point having 5,000 Reserve members if only 2,000 of them are active. I would prefer to have 1,500 active reservists who turn up for their training days, have a genuine interest and have joined for the right reasons and not simply because they want to wear a uniform on ceremonial days and so forth. I want an active Reserve as opposed to an inactive one. Perhaps we can all be blamed for this going back many years and we may need to examine the entire concept.

I welcome the proposals Deputies have made and I have no issue with listening to further views after this meeting, nor do I have any issue either with departmental officials and members of the Defence Forces being involved in this process because we are all working towards a common objective.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Estimate for pensions for 2016 is approximately €4 million less than it was last year. If, as it appears, more people will be in receipt of a pension, how will it be possible to spend less?

The Estimate under A2 for 2015 is €218.6 million. This is over €3 million more than the original Revised Estimate for 2015, published in late 2014. For each of the four financial years, from 2012 to 2015, the original pension Estimate made at the previous year's end never came within €1 million of the actual outturn. We are always quite a bit off. Has the Department provided each year an Estimate for Army pensions less than the outturn for the preceding year? In other words, was the Estimate for 2012 less than the outturn for 2011?

In light of this continuous structural under-provision for pensions, does the Minister of State expect, or remotely expect, the pension Estimate here to be within €1 million of the outturn for 2016? Is there any sanction under the Public Sector Management Act, or is there a budgetary rule that sanctions structural under-provision? Does the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, or did the Department of Finance, impose it on the Department of Defence?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It too early to say what the shortfall will be by the end of this year. I reiterate what I said to the Deputy on the ship investment. We will revert to the Deputy if we are seeking a Supplementary Estimate. There will be savings elsewhere and there will not be an extra cost to the Exchequer. If the Supplementary Estimate is required, as we expect, we will come back to the Deputy.

We would like to be able to get a budget from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to fulfil all the commitments regarding pension entitlements. There will be negotiations between my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to increase the pension Vote. There are particular differences unique to the Defence Forces in terms of predicted retirement and turnover patterns which contribute to greater-than-expected expenditure in any year. Bearing in mind operational manpower, this is due, among other things, to the early payment of pension benefits immediately on retirement after relatively short periods of service and the fact that the timing of a person's departure on pension is largely of his or her own personal choice. This makes forecasting for the Department of Defence's and Defence Forces' expenditure on pensions very difficult from year to year. The position on the Army pensions funding is being monitored closely. If a Revised or Supplementary Estimate is required, we will revert to the committee before the end of the year.

It is absolutely my intention to seek additional funding as part of the overall future budgetary negotiations so the Army pension Vote will be provided for adequately. However, we have to deal with the resource envelope we have been given over recent years. There has been an increase. On the Deputy’s first comment, it is not that there are more people but that there is also an increase in the pension rate, and that has to be taken into account.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am finding it difficult to understand that while the Estimate for 2016 is €4 million less than the final figure for last year, we have greater pension expenditure requirements to meet. I just do not understand how we are squaring that. It seems like a deliberate under-estimation with a view to definitely requiring a Supplementary Estimate later in the year.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy saying there was €4 million less after we received the Supplementary Estimate?

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would love to be able to go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and say exactly what I want, but there are negotiations involved in trying to obtain what my Department wishes to have. We do not always get what we look for but I can assure the Deputy it is not because of the negotiations between the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Defence.

What I have said to the Deputy is that I hope we will be in a position, over the coming short period, to adequately give the exact sum required for Army pensions. One will not be able to give the exact figure but the Supplementary Estimate required will not be as big as it has been for previous years.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is clearly continuous structural under-provision for pensions, and one is required to make gains or savings across the Defence Forces budget. We are in a situation in which the Defence Forces are effectively cannibalising themselves because they are making savings on an annual basis. Operational capability is skeletal now. The Defence Forces are being pushed constantly to make savings. The Department is structurally under-providing for pensions knowing it will get money from the defence budget because it is not recruiting up to the personnel ceiling of 9,500 and it is not willing to plan ahead and achieve those numbers even though we know every year there will be a shortfall in the numbers. The Minister must have an idea where these savings across these overheads that we are going to achieve later down the line will come from.

The Estimate purposely under-provides for pensions in the knowledge that the money will be scraped off somewhere else. That is having an impact. I have no further comments to make, and I do not expect a response. I have outlined what appears to me to be the case, and I have not got a satisfactory answer today to suggest otherwise.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted the Minister has recognised the surviving widows of deceased veterans of the War of Independence and increased their pensions by 50%, particularly in this historic year, the 100 anniversary of the Easter Rising. It is nice that these people are remembered and recognised.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy McLoughlin. My predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, recognised that. It was a nice gesture for this year.

I am not sure whether Deputy Chambers got the detailed correspondence I sent to her yesterday specifically on the Army pensions.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I got it yesterday. I thank the Minister of State.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It outlines the position exactly. The Deputy spoke about operational capabilities. We do not scrape anything from funds for operational capability.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Staff numbers.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to leave this meeting saying we skimp and save and scrape off capabilities. That is absolutely not the case. Our Defence Forces personnel are given every resource they require for operations they are involved in.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Personnel numbers affect capability.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Given the desire to return the number of personnel to 9,500, I cannot say on 1 January of any given year exactly how many personnel will retire between that date and the end of December of that year but we try to estimate the number who will leave or be recruited. We do not say we will keep the number down in any year to make a saving. I do not want that to go out from this meeting. The Department and the officials in the Defence Forces look at an average number of people leaving year on year. We will continue to keep this in mind in trying to measure exactly how many people will be leaving.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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If we were looking at an average number, we would not under-recruit every single year. Why is there not a year in which we slightly over-recruit and actually go above what we believe we will need? Every year we under-recruit. Let us turn that around and perhaps over-provide to at least give us some possibility of some day reaching the ceiling. At the current rate of recruitment, we will never reach 9,500. The idea that we should accept this natural gap or attrition rate that we know exists and fail to address it is not acceptable. The way forward is to slightly over-recruit in one year to determine whether we can actually meet the shortfall.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Between 2015 and 2016, some 1,450 people will be taken in. I assure the Deputy that there is no cash shortage in respect of retaining our number at 9,500. That is absolutely not the case.

When the brigade structure was changed and with the reorganisation it was a given that there would be a force of 9,500. The resource envelope is available for a force of 9,500.