Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)

The increase does indicate an inflection point. Unfortunately, we are supposed to have a headcount of 11,500 by 2028, only four years away. Does Ms Sinnamon see a net increase per year of 1,000 regular members of the Defence Forces over the next four years? The target is ambitious but is it realistic?

I will phrase the following as diplomatically as possible. I would always, as does the committee, regard the defence sector as one team and the defence apparatus is made up of three components - the Defence Forces, the Department of Defence and the Minister's office. I am not sure if Ms Sinnamon is a GAA fan but I always view the sector as forwards, backs and a goalkeeper. What we have noticed over the past five years is that consistently the forwards are the only people who are examined, scrutinised and blamed. In fact, the backs and the goalkeeper seem to go out of their way to make sure that they are not scrutinised. Has Ms Sinnamon encountered any acknowledgement from the political side, and I include this committee in this, or institutional Ireland that they recognise the damage that was done to the Defence Forces, not by the Defence Forces, over the last decade in the form of defunding, neglect, and the dismantling of the command and control, and governance frameworks? It would certainly help the healing process if the forwards could realise that they are not being thrown under the bus all the time. With a lot of the communication we get, there is a cultural problem in the Defence Forces but there is never any mention of the political side or the institutional side. Let me give an example. Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill is a very able Deputy. She is a female Minister of State. She has been appointed to the role of junior Minister for defence and is the Minister of State yet no powers have been delegated to her. She is the only one of 20 Ministers of State with no powers delegated. In fairness, the same thing happened to Deputies Jack Chambers and Peter Burke beforehand. My view is that the Defence Forces are in crisis so it should be all hands on deck but when junior Ministers are appointed with no powers delegated to them that points to me that there is a political governance issue as well.

In terms of the Commission on Defence Forces, we were very clear that it should have been a commission on defence, not on Defence Forces, thus assessment of the entire team of the back, forwards and goalkeeper. Does Ms Sinnamon feel that that would have been a better approach from a commission point of view? I think it would myself and I am very keen to hear her views on that.

On the damage that was caused outside of the Defence Forces - and I am not apportioning blame and no one is looking for accountability or anything like that - I seek an acknowledgement that all the problems in the Defence Forces are not caused by the Defence Forces. First, let us consider the pay issue. I welcome the fact that the requirement to "mark time" for the first three years has been removed because these personnel were the only public servants in the entire country where no increments were paid for the first three years. It is good that the requirement has been removed but my fundamental question is why that was allowed. Why was that even considered appropriate? How come it took a Commission on Defence Forces to intervene to get rid of that injustice?

On the Office of Reserve Affairs, it has been presented as being a fantastic idea and that they are going to ride in on their white horse and solve the Reserve Defence Force problem. However, 12 years ago that entire office existed but was called the Directorate of Reserves. It is not a new concept, just a different name, but somebody shut down that office 12 years ago and it was not the Defence Forces. Again, this goes back to the fact that there is no acceptance of responsibility. I would love a Minister to come in here, and I would recommend any Minister to come in, and say, "Look, we accept the shortcomings at political level and institutional level, and these are not just unique to the Defence Forces" because that would certainly help from a healing point of view.

On gender diversity and unconscious bias training, is that just for the uniformed services or is it for the backs and goalkeeper as well? If it is not for the entire team, then why is it not for the entire team? I regularly get comments that there is an anti-military bias in the defence sector or apparatus. Perhaps that is an unconscious bias but perhaps it might be worth considering the entire team undergoing such training as it would be beneficial.

Ms Sinnamon mentioned the last time that she intended to meet the representative associations. Has that meeting occurred? If not, will it soon occur?

To return to the unconscious bias piece, the Defence (Amendment) Bill was discussed here around six months ago. We do not mind working constantly but it appears that we got the first draft rather than the final draft of the Bill. Also, there was no consultation whatsoever with the representative associations prior to the Bill being published and presented here. That culminated in the President having to convene the Council of State, which to me is not how a piece of legislation should be brought to the three arms of the Houses of the Oireachtas, if one includes the President. I suggest that with the next batch of legislation that comes through there needs to be early consultation with RACO, PDFORRA and the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, and we should see well-developed final drafts rather than the first draft.

I welcome the improvements that have been made in capability and welcome the two new maritime patrol aircraft. I wiould point out that the aircraft were ordered in 2019 before the Commission on Defence Forces reported and the commission did not ask for the two inshore patrol vessels, IPVs. The commission asked for two new medium lift helicopters but there has been no sign of them. In fact, when there was the MV Matthew assault off the south coast there was only one helicopter serviceable and it was not even available. Where are the two helicopters? Are they likely to appear in any shape or form?

On the cultural change piece, and this is constantly used, some of it is appropriate but it is sometimes used to shift the responsibility from the goalkeeper and the backs on to the forwards. That is a cultural issue primarily in the uniformed services. I have said it before and I will say it again that I have worked in loads of different places and sectors but the best culture by a country mile that I have encountered to date is the one in the Defence Forces. If people want to know what the true culture of the Defence Forces is, it is to be seen in south Lebanon at the moment. Perhaps it is even more significant in Finner Camp at the moment where we have approximately 300 troops who have volunteered to go to Lebanon in six weeks' time and replace the troops who are out there. we need to be careful when we say, "for cultural change". Do we want our troops to be less brave or less selfless? There are hugely positive aspects of the Defence Forces' culture that should be emphasised as well.

Lastly, I want to double down on the point made by the Chair and Deputy Matt Carthy that the European working time directive is key. The reason our soldiers, sailors and aviators are the lowest paid public servants is that they do not get overtime for rostered duties.

That is the key. That is the nub of the issue. Gardaí are the best paid public servants because they do shift work, like every other uniformed service.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is hugely appreciated. I thank them for all the work they are doing. I think the four of them are new to the defence team so the issues that went on ten years ago are not their responsibility. It is great to have them on board.