Mr. S?amus Dooley:

We have come to a strange and curious pass where trade unions take a punishment beating for the actions of management. I find that disturbing. It also flies in the face of evidence, including references I have already given the committee, that, in fact, 20 years ago we addressed the issue of bogus self-employment through a process involving a review. In January 2019, we, including Patricia King and me, gave evidence to the relevant committee at the time. It is probably impolite to quote oneself, but I said then:

I have long believed that lawyers should be avoided like the plague. Industrial relations matters should be settled through the industrial relations process.

I criticised in particular the State for failing to deal with providing the scope section with adequate resources to investigate bogus self-employment. The Eversheds process came about. That legal review was not conducted by the NUJ or the trade union group but was established as an independent body by Eversheds Sutherland. That was the firm appointed by RTÉ; we had no role in its appointment. As regards the question Deputy Griffin asked as to who selected the workers, that was what was called a desktop investigation by them. It would be useful for the committee to invite RTÉ in to explain. I will not be able to defend or explain for RTÉ, but-----