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Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: That is what I am saying. It is a little less so than their direct terms and conditions.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: However, if they are also then talking about childcare costs, taxation policy and regional development policy – all issues that impact on their members – one can see how it can move to a space where there could be an argument then in respect of this piece of legislation. I do think the core issues are the references to "Government policy" and "political matters". The...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: Not the reference to "a political matter" but, yes, in terms of commentary in respect of "Government policy". Let us take, for example, if on budget day-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: Yes, but it also includes media commentary, including social media. I am taking the section in its totality. For example, on budget day, RTÉ always does a package of vox pops where it gets people from different sectors to give their views on it. Trade unions contact their members and say they should participate in the debate on how the budget has affected members – good, bad or...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: The point I am making is that this makes it unclear.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: It also states they cannot lobby.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: It then becomes-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: It comes down to an interpretation as to whether or not what they are saying relates to the purpose of an association in representing members. Does the Tánaiste get the point? I am making the point that there is ambiguity here and it is open to different interpretation.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: This is about the RACO and PDFORRA encouraging members. It relates to the purposes of associations. The Bill states that without prejudice to the purposes of representing their members, associations shall not encourage members to engage in public agitation and protest. We all have an understanding that the role of the representative organisations is not the same as other trade unions,...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: They can also encourage their members to do so, if necessary. I have given the example of media commentary. As the Tánaiste knows, when there are issues pertaining or developments happen, the media likes to talk to real people who are affected. Members of the media will approach trade unions, representative organisations and sectoral bodies and ask them to comment on what things might...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: That is not what the Bill states. It states "encourage members".

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: The amendments being brought forward are around the language of Government policy, which the Tánaiste has already conceded requires another look.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: That is not at all what I suggested.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: It is still possible, therefore, for the Government to appeal.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: It is page 28. It is in respect of amendments-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: May I make a couple of comments? The amendments to this section and our contributions come from the positions of the representative organisations themselves. They tell us they feel that this has created ambiguity. The Tánaiste mentioned a couple of times the issues around public agitation and protest. To be clear about my own position, if the section read "shall not encourage members...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: I move amendment No. 3: In page 9, line 11, to delete "or matter of Government policy".

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: I move amendment No. 5: In page 9, line 13, to delete "or matter of Government policy".

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: I move amendment No. 10: In page 14, line 37, to delete “and” where it secondly occurs. From our perspective, amendment No. 11 is the substantive one. It relates to an issue that was discussed widely, as the Tánaiste will be aware. I refer to the external oversight body. It is a concern that was widely relayed during the pre-legislative scrutiny that the external...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Matt Carthy: Notwithstanding anything that has been said, I do not think we can look at this legislation or leave what many of us consider an anomaly in it the expectation that other legislation to address this matter will be brought forward in the future. In fact, the current position reinforces the problematic nature of what is being proposed because it is the Secretary General who is the Accounting...

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