Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Question 51: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if she will amend the Industrial Relations Act 1990 to trigger an immediate review of all Employment Regulation Orders in view of the over-riding need to protect jobs; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [7392/09]

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Employment regulation orders are made by the Labour Court on foot of proposals from joint labour committees. JLCs are statutory bodies, established by the Labour Court under the Industrial Relations Acts 1946 to 2004, to provide machinery for the fixing of statutory minimum rates of pay and conditions of employment in particular sectors. JLCs operate in sectors where collective bargaining is not well established and wages tend to be low.

A joint labour committee is composed of equal numbers of representatives of employers and workers in the sector and they meet regularly, under an independent chairman, to discuss and agree terms and conditions to apply to specified grades or categories of workers in the sector. When it reaches agreement on terms and conditions, the JLC publishes details and invites submissions. Following consideration of any submissions, the committee may make proposals to the Labour Court for making an ERO. The making of an ERO has the effect of making the pay rates and conditions contained in it legally enforceable. The terms and conditions set down in the EROs are a matter for agreement by the joint labour committees and I do not propose to amend the legislation to change this.

In the context of the recent review and transitional agreement 2008-09, the social partners agreed to a series of further measures to support the JLC system. These will include the introduction of legislation to strengthen the existing system for the making of both employment regulation orders and registered employment agreements to provide for their continued effective operation; and measures to provide for improved operational procedures to include the nomination of chairmen for JLCs, following consultation with the social partners, for a fixed term of office and the continued enhancement of expertise and competencies through the practice of nominating chairmen on the basis of their experience and qualifications for the role.

I am conscious of the difficulties that many firms operating in sectors covered by EROs are experiencing at the moment. In recent months I have met representatives of employer organisations and heard at first hand of the difficulties with regard to wage costs. I have consistently advised employers to make their concerns known through their representatives at the social partnership table and to pursue the issues actively through the established mechanism of the relevant joint labour committee. In my view, the parties represented on the JLC are best placed to address the impact of the economic crisis on employment levels and the viability of services in the relevant sector.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I hope that sooner rather than later the country will have a Government and Ministers who will make decisions——

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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——instead of trotting out legal advice. I know what is in the legislation, I can read it for myself,——

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why ask the question then?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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——and I know what is in the Towards 2016 agreement, which the Government has already torn up, so I do not see why it should expect employers and employees to follow it.

This is a disaster. This country is haemorrhaging jobs, we are on the edge of an abyss and it is possible that in a few months time we will not be able to make out debt payments or even pay our own salaries. At the coalface are those industries covered by EROs in retail, hotels, restaurants, security, construction and agriculture. These industries are losing jobs because they cannot meet the terms of the employment regulation orders and they cannot meet the pay increases the Government will not pay but is making them pay. The Government must make the decision to change the system, review the existing employment regulation orders and make JLCs equal so there is a level playing field between employees and employers with no voting rights for the independent chair.

If the Government will not do that, Fine Gael will introduce to the House a Bill to achieve it. If the Government wants to destroy every shop, every security industry and construction site,——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is what Deputy Varadkar wants to do.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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——if it wants to put all those people out of their jobs, we will make them vote for it and hold them responsible in every hotel and restaurant in Ireland.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Varadkar believe in exploitation as well?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has decided that social partnership in all its guises should be thrown out the window.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Government has already done that.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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He has never supported the idea of consensus in this House on the issues of pay and conditions for workers and industrial agreements.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The workers want the agreements changed.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has stated that is his philosophy. It might not be the philosophy of everyone sitting around him, but it is definitely his.

The JLCs are made up of employer representatives, worker representatives and an independent chairman.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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A biased chairman.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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They can meet and discuss issues. In catering, they came up with sensible proposals relating to double time on Sundays and agreed the process. They are now going through the statutory process, striking new rates that will be soon in force and addressing the issue of Sunday trading for restaurants and pubs that serve food.

There is a hotels forum meeting as we speak to strike new rates. The Deputy cannot have it both ways, he cannot come into the House and make things up.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps we should have a forum on the national deficit.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I was just about to ask the Minister of State when the hotels forum, which is meeting to deal with that issue, will meet. When will it report on how it is addressing employment in that sector? Is there a forum for the electrical sector? When will the Government restart social partnership after its being torn up?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The issue relating to electrical contracts is before the courts and REA so I cannot say much about it.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I accept that.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The hotels forum has met a few times to discuss issues. IBEC, the Irish Hotels Federation and employee representative groups make it up.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Is the Government hoping for an early meeting?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everyone is conscious of the pressure the hotel industry is under at present. I urge everyone represented at the forum and the JLCs to finalise the issue because it is causing problems.

We have embraced social partnership on this side of the House for many years. The Labour Party also supported it and we will consistently encourage a situation where everyone comes together in the spirit of partnership. Our door is always open for those that come up with constructive ideas to address the serious situation facing the country.

Deirdre Clune (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is because of an ERO that employers in the security industry are obliged to implement a pay increase of 10% to 13% that many of them cannot afford. I have spoken to employers and employees in the industry who do not want to take it because they realise their jobs and businesses are at risk. They cannot afford the pay increases. Has the Minister of State met the security industry? What can he offer to it?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have no difficulties with both sides of that industry coming together to discuss the serious problems we face.

Deirdre Clune (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Their hands are tied.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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They can come together, there are representatives on both sides in joint industrial councils and on JLCs. They can come together and strike new rates of pay and impose new conditions at any stage. This sector is under pressure but it must equally be accepted that it is a low wage area. We must be conscious of that. It is in the industry's hands to come together, discuss the issue, strike a new rate and it will be facilitated through the Labour Court.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister of State accept the ERO process, through the JLCs, is as fair and reasonable as it gets in terms of reaching consensus between workers and employers? To protect good employers in the current downturn, including the difficult trading environment, will the Minister of State ensure extra vigilance on the part of his inspectors so that all employers are complying with EROs? As I said, this is particularly to protect good employers and ensure that there is an level playing pitch.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The balance must be struck and obviously it is the law of the land. Labour inspectors are actively enforcing REAs and EROs. One must get that balance right, but at the end of the day it is in the hands of industry. For many years, JLCs were not as responsive to the needs of industry because there was a consistently upward curve. Now that there are challenges, however, they need to come together in a spirit of partnership, as has been the case. They are chaired by an independent chairperson and can bring in expertise and get assistance to strike the rates, pay and conditions that reflect the industry. I assure the Deputy that, in the context of enforcement, our labour inspectors are active. In fact, some people in this House think they are too active. It is always difficult to achieve a balance.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will allow brief supplementary questions from Deputy Timmins and Deputy Doyle.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I said they were spreading across the country like the black plague, but they were only implementing the legislation. Whatever the ideological differences, I am sure the Minister of State would agree that businesses are suffering. Employers and employees want to come to some agreement on this because jobs are being lost. Can the Minister of State use his good offices to bring this matter to a conclusion? Will he indicate when we can expect closure on it? Let us get an agreement and put it to bed.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The hotels?

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes, the hotels and restaurants.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I accept what the Minister of State said about the JLCs concerning pubs and catering, but how can it be good legislation when there are two separate arrangements? It seems the decisions are based on what the membership consists of. It is the same industry with two separate sets of rules, but that does not seem like good or proper legislation across the country. This matter must be addressed.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody accepts there is a huge challenge and the hotel industry is under pressure because of international problems, including a weak sterling and weak dollar, as well as our own internal difficulties. They are currently discussing the matter and I am hopeful they will come to an agreement quickly to reflect the new realities. I urge all sides to accept that.

In the context of catering, that particular issue has been addressed and is going through the process of being lodged with the Labour Court and then becoming the law of the land.

On the broader issue, we have choices in this House. We could tear up the current arrangements, but I do not believe we should. They can work if they are more responsive in difficult times. I am quite sure that people can come together from both sides — industry and employees — and, more importantly, the chair is independent. That issue is also being looked at in the context of the review of JLCs and the amalgamation of same as a commitment in Towards 2016.